376 replies to this topic

[indigoid]

OK, having done our bit for cultural sensitivity for the day, what do the resident cynics/optimists/comedians (I think that covers us all)  think of this one?

 

http://www.thetrutha...in-in-the-game/

 

I'll say straight away that if it meets crash then it won't meet those mpg or price targets, but if it did...

 

Could they evade that by trying to not call it a car?

 

I mean it's not THAT different to a Can-Am Spyder with a roof, is it?

 

Unfortunately MPG is only one part of total cost of ownership. For some vehicles, eg. BMW shitboxes like mine, it's barely a majority of the costs. I think they're deranged even if they do live up to their efficiency goals.

[NeilR]

if fuel was a significant part of your weekly expendature on a low income this vehicle might make sense.

[indigoid]

if fuel was a significant part of your weekly expendature on a low income this vehicle might make sense.

 

If no public transport, maybe.

 

But if motorbikes generally can't achieve a lower TCO (and I don't think they can if you put them on an equal footing to typical car ownership, ie. don't do your own maint except maybe chain clean/lube where applicable), with all the experience and volume advantages of the incumbent manufacturers, what hope does a new manufacturer have? I think the answer is "they're fibbing" and/or "their accounting is horribly wrong"

 

I've done the math for my bikes, and the only way they'd come out cheaper is if my time (spent on DIY maint) was worthless

[Canuck]

Not necessarily.  If the service intervals are like the rest of new car offerings (very, very long), you may get ahead.  Motorcycle services are notoriously frequent (in my sphere of experience).

[Greg Locock]

So, if we ignore the middle class+ bracket of the first world, what vehicle best suits the requirements of the real people out there, worldwide, who will actually be the largest percentage of new vehicle buyers in the next 20 years? Is that trike the answer? or a Nano? Or is it something more like a 2CV? I have a strong suspicion that the median vehicle will actually be a 2 litre diesel 1 tonne truck, which is a fine thing of itself, but I was hoping for something a bit more urban and and a bit more lightweight.

[carlt]

Assuming more of the global population become urbanised/semi urbanised

Gordon Murray Design - T25/T27 ish 

Edited by carlt, 27 August 2013 - 16:31.

[Bob Riebe]

So, if we ignore the middle class+ bracket of the first world, what vehicle best suits the requirements of the real people out there, worldwide, who will actually be the largest percentage of new vehicle buyers in the next 20 years? Is that trike the answer? or a Nano? Or is it something more like a 2CV? I have a strong suspicion that the median vehicle will actually be a 2 litre diesel 1 tonne truck, which is a fine thing of itself, but I was hoping for something a bit more urban and and a bit more lightweight.

Variations of the carcycle were not uncommon in the middle of Minnesota thirty years ago, they are beyond rare now.

 

Any one who lives in a country where a trip of 200 miles still leaves one hundreds to over a thousand miles from the border of a state, much less the country, looks at these things as better than a bicycle, at least i winter, but nothing more than a toy that well to do can afford.

People who live in cities, especially people who have never spent more than days in a rural area, probably should get out into the real world, and travel requirements there of, before even thinking about "requirements" of real people.

 

Policiticians do not, and they do not give a damn either but I expect more of people here.

 

It will not be a diesel truck, in the U.S., but you have the right idea.

[carlt]

Variations of the carcycle were not uncommon in the middle of Minnesota thirty years ago, they are beyond rare now.

 

Any one who lives in a country where a trip of 200 miles still leaves one hundreds to over a thousand miles from the border of a state, much less the country, looks at these things as better than a bicycle, at least i winter, but nothing more than a toy that well to do can afford.

People who live in cities, especially people who have never spent more than days in a rural area, probably should get out into the real world, and travel requirements there of, before even thinking about "requirements" of real people.

 

Policiticians do not, and they do not give a damn either but I expect more of people here.

 

It will not be a diesel truck, in the U.S., but you have the right idea.

have you ever travelled outside your thousand mile rural state ?

 

http://sedac.ciesin....llection/gpw-v3

http://www.newgeogra...y-a-2012-update

 

[Canuck]

So, if we ignore the middle class+ bracket of the first world, what vehicle best suits the requirements of the real people

As I am not one of the "real people", I think it would take a remarkable act of hubris on my part to assume I knew what they need. As middle class, I lead a remarkably charmed life that puts me in the what...top 3 to 5% of the world's population. To imagine that they will "develop" into a lifestyle that is in any way the same as our slowly disappearing one is somewhat narrow-minded.

I have lived in a handful of countries but always at a middle-class level. I barely understand what I need, much less anyone else.

[desmo]

So, if we ignore the middle class+ bracket of the first world, what vehicle best suits the requirements of the real people out there, worldwide, who will actually be the largest percentage of new vehicle buyers in the next 20 years? Is that trike the answer? or a Nano? Or is it something more like a 2CV? I have a strong suspicion that the median vehicle will actually be a 2 litre diesel 1 tonne truck, which is a fine thing of itself, but I was hoping for something a bit more urban and and a bit more lightweight.

This Piaggio Ape looks like a good candidate for basic transportation in developing countries- http://www.motorindi...-ape-truk-plus/

 

My father has a smaller three wheeled version of the Ape, and as ridiculous as it looks it gets two people and a reasonable cargo to where they need to go--and this four wheeled version looks much more capable than my father's Ape.  Small farmers in Italy get good use out of these, they aren't in any hurry.

[indigoid]

This Piaggio Ape looks like a good candidate for basic transportation in developing countries- http://www.motorindi...-ape-truk-plus/

 

My father has a smaller three wheeled version of the Ape, and as ridiculous as it looks it gets two people and a reasonable cargo to where they need to go--and this four wheeled version looks much more capable than my father's Ape.  Small farmers in Italy get good use out of these, they aren't in any hurry.

 

Saw lots of both versions of these in Sri Lanka last week. Three wheeled versions primarily used as a taxi with greater passenger capability (three whiteys, four+ locals) than the trusty old Bajaj RE205.

 

The RE205s get used for a huge variety of things too, much more than just taxi duty. Mostly four-stroke engines these days, as they've banned the importation of more the fragrant models. The taxis tend to be mostly tuned lean to the point of melting pistons on the slightest incline. I wonder how economical that really is...

[Bob Riebe]

 

have you ever travelled outside your thousand mile rural state ?

 

http://sedac.ciesin....llection/gpw-v3

http://www.newgeogra...y-a-2012-update

 

 

I have been in every State West of the Mississippi except Louisiana  but only as far east as Ohio and Kentucky.

Time has proven it correct but as a young adult, a  New Yorker once told me that compared to Minneapolis, New York City is conservative.

That briefly got me into politics.

 

 

I also have been a goodly distance into Canada but as far as Mexico, only Tijuana.

[carlt]

I have been in every State West of the Mississippi except Louisiana  but only as far east as Ohio and Kentucky.

Time has proven it correct but as a young adult, a  New Yorker once told me that compared to Minneapolis, New York City is conservative.

That briefly got me into politics.

 

 

I also have been a goodly distance into Canada but as far as Mexico, only Tijuana.

Do I hear song lyrics ?

[Greg Locock]

I was wondering if Bob was having trouble getting out of the Appalachians because he turned right at every junction. For what its worth four out of six Australian states are bigger than Texas, so lectures about distances are a bit ho hum. FFS I've driven the length and breadth of Oz in a handbuilt solar car, I don't need reminding how big it is.

 

Back on topic, a 1+1 seater is a first world luxury, because the middle class of the rising economies (say BRIC but i don't know anything about Russia) you have a family, and you only have one vehicle. So if you can swing sort of business related deal you get a crewcab light truck, otherwise it's going to be n econobox. 

[Bob Riebe]

 I've driven the length and breadth of Oz in a handbuilt solar car, I don't need reminding how big it is.

 

 

Do that in Minnesota, going the distance South to North, in January, without petrol powered back-up and I will be impressed.

[gruntguru]

Not easily impressed are you Bob? Surprise surprise - neither is anybody else!

[275 GTB-4]

Those Isuzu 3.9 diesels are pretty darned good with a modern turbo setup bolted on. Not so good in standard NA format, though, and the turbo 6x6 Perenties were so much heavier that I can't imagine they were much nicer than the asthmatic 4x4 going up any sort of incline

 

The 4BD1 Turbo used by the Australian Army had 90Kw and 314Nm, non-turbo was 66Kw @3200 and 245Nm at 1900...chosen for reliability and built for longevity, not tyre shredding performance, which has no place in the outback.

[Lee Nicolle]

Not necessarily.  If the service intervals are like the rest of new car offerings (very, very long), you may get ahead.  Motorcycle services are notoriously frequent (in my sphere of experience).

Bikes wether sports bikes, commuter bikes or even ckook chasers are very expensive to maintain in comparison to a common mainstream car.
My brother runs the workshop of a bigger bike dealer and the parts, and hours to fit them are downright scarey. Plus tyre life is very short. In short they make no financial sense. If you like riding them they are very exciting. But I cannot get excited about riding them, I am a lousy motorcycle rider who has lost too many friends on them. I am the only one of my family who has not regularly ridden them at some stage, and even I carry the scars. Though the sidestand did collapse and I burnt my leg on the hot chrome exhaust!! Ouch. Only my mother from the 5 of us had no injurys, she rode a 250 BSA to work in the early 50s.And stopped riding when she married and had a car to drive.

[indigoid]

In short they make no financial sense. If you like riding them they are very exciting.

 

Yes. They're definitely not for everyone. Definitely one of those things where people need to listen to their instincts. If it feels wrong, it probably is. Why did you think you were a lousy rider?

 

Self-awareness and introspection are pretty important

[Lee Nicolle]

Yes. They're definitely not for everyone. Definitely one of those things where people need to listen to their instincts. If it feels wrong, it probably is. Why did you think you were a lousy rider?
 
Self-awareness and introspection are pretty important

I have a major sense of self survival!! I could all sorts of silly things on a bicycle when I was young but it never seemed to equate to motorcycles. Though like many will say a big bike is far easier [and safer] to ride than a small one. A 500 dirt bike, or a big Motard is more me. Or for a road bike a big sports bike.And sit upright with proper handlebars! I always preferred a Kwaka 900 to a ring a ding or a commuter bike, Though the big water bucket Suzuki my mate was killed on was ok. I do talk of the long distance past. The only bikes I have ridden this century have been Motards.On dirt, fairly slowly!

[HectorPascal]

There's nothing wrong with something like this. Three cyl, 660cc, automatic, AWD, seats 4 adults and will run happily on the expressway at 110-120 kph.

 

 

Nice interior, aircon, electric windows and heated seats.

 

 

It also works perfectly well as a delivery vehicle.

 

[saudoso]

I have started looking around for a new car, would go for a station wagon, guess what? The only one I found around here was the Passat Variant.

 

I'll steer clear from the SUVs, just don't like them, so I guess I'll have to decide between the Variant or a sedan.

 

Then the second let down, can't find decently priced 6 cylinders any longer (no more Fusion or Passat - both went turbo), only the Hyundai Azera. Not so many choices...

[CSquared]

Fascinating video relating to some stuff discussed in this thread:

 

1959 Chevrolet Bel Air vs. 2009 Chevrolet Malibu IIHS crash test http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xtxd27jlZ_g

[Bob Riebe]

 

Fascinating video relating to some stuff discussed in this thread:

 

1959 Chevrolet Bel Air vs. 2009 Chevrolet Malibu IIHS crash test http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xtxd27jlZ_g

 

It is fairly well known that, that GM chassis, due to basic physics when applied to its shape, had an achilles heel when hit from that angle.

 

For anyone to use that chassis as an example of how much better new cars supposedly are, is disingenuous.

[Canuck]

Ah - Truth without Honesty.

[gruntguru]

It is fairly well known that, that GM chassis, due to basic physics when applied to its shape, had an achilles heel when hit from that angle.

 

For anyone to use that chassis as an example of how much better new cars supposedly are, is disingenuous.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qBDyeWofcLY

 

I am interested to learn what is the achilles heel of the Volvo 940. It's not an American tank so perhaps Mats can enlighten us.

 

I suspect (as with the 59 Chev) the real answer is technology (lack of).

Note Volvo 940 = 40% heavier than Renault Modus.

Edited by gruntguru, 05 September 2013 - 00:47.

[Superbar]

The Top Gear solution, or a vehicle that is absolutely not obese: http://youtu.be/dJfSS0ZXYdo