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Are F1 Pit Stops 'Too Fast, Too Furious' and needs slowing down?


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#1 eronrules

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:05

Gary Anderson says F1 pit stops should be slowed down

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/23230229

They have got so fast - the top teams are routinely changing four wheels in 2.5 seconds - that it has gone too far. ...

I would suggest reducing the number of people allowed to work on the pit stop to two on each wheel, a front and rear jack, and the 'lollipop' man who controls the driver. ....

In Webber's stop, the lollipop man could not see what was going on with the right rear wheel. He thought it was on; it looked on. If there were fewer people, there would be less confusion. ....


you know what, i do agree with GA, yes it's nice to gloat about someone's fav team doing a sub 2.5 sec pit stops, but do we actually see what's going on??? each and every race, to improve the time, crews are pushing the boundaries to the limit, the limit of human reaction time and accuracy. Accidents are bound to happen and they did. why do we see so many wheel gun failures/wheel nut jamming etc these days??? cause the teams are designing them to be taken off and placed on faster and faster thereby increasing the chance of them failing. do we need that??? with so much emphasis placed on pit lane safety, if the pit-stops are sub 4.5 sec as GA mentions, then there will be the safety margin to take 'human decision' in case something goes wrong.

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#2 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:07

Do like at Le Mans only 2 guys working at the car at the time, so they current 20 people doing something during a stop can be reduced and the time of the stop will go up.

:cool:

#3 Victor_RO

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:08

Do like at Le Mans only 2 guys working at the car at the time, so they current 20 people doing something during a stop can be reduced and the time of the stop will go up.

:cool:


Or Indycar, one man with the air line for the onboard jack and one man for each wheel.

#4 eronrules

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:10

Or Indycar, one man with the air line for the onboard jack and one man for each wheel.


i like the indy car pit stops TBH. also i say, ban tire warmers like indy. these F1 boys are spoiled too much :smoking:

#5 Jon83

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:27

I don't think it needs changed.

#6 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:33

Hate it or love it, Pit stops are a massive part of F1, anything introduced to artificially slow it down would be wrong, reducing team members involved maybe an idea but I think from a safety point of view they need men on each corner to ensure wheels dont wonder off

#7 Zoetrope

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:48

Introduce longer pit-stops and no one will want to stop, because fresh tyres will not compensate time lost in the pits. Then they will introduce even higher degredation tyres to force teams to stop and then...

#8 eronrules

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:51

Hate it or love it, Pit stops are a massive part of F1, anything introduced to artificially slow it down would be wrong, reducing team members involved maybe an idea but I think from a safety point of view they need men on each corner to ensure wheels dont wonder off


i think what GA is saying is that the no. of personnel allowed to change the tires should be limited. if the other members are just there for safety, there is no. problem. right now,

one member only operates wheel gun
one member removes the tire
one member puts the new one in

that's 3 per wheel

now if we use only one member to remove and put on new tire, he/she'll have to put down the used tire safely on it's side and then pick the new one up, thereby increasing the time by atleast 2/3 seconds.

also, one upside is the no. of personnel in the pit area will be reduced and not to mention less pit crews=more savings.

and no, it's not artificially slowing down the pit stops, it's just common sense with safety.

Edited by eronrules, 20 July 2013 - 12:52.


#9 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:55

Hate it or love it, Pit stops are a massive part of F1, anything introduced to artificially slow it down would be wrong, reducing team members involved maybe an idea but I think from a safety point of view they need men on each corner to ensure wheels dont wonder off


They are as far as I see it an artificial part of F1, there is no reason that the teams needs to battle with 20 people in order to complete the mandatory stop in somewhere between 2 and 3 seconds. After the Webber wheel bounced down the pitlane, we had a knee jerk reaction completely missing the point as Dieter Rencken made such a succinct article about:

http://plus.autospor...sing-the-point/

:cool:


#10 djned

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:55

if pit stops were longer, but the tyres just as flimsy, wouldn't there be a bigger emphasis on driving slower to conserve tyres?

not to ignore the safety issue, but i feel like reducing the people that can work on the car would only add to the issue f1 has at the moment where drivers are tiptoeing around the circuit. f1 needs to let the drivers race at the limit.

#11 DrProzac

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 13:20

No.

#12 Lazy

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 13:30

You could set a minimum time that the car has to be stopped, say 5 secs. Take the pressure off a bit but still leave the possibility to lose time if you get it wrong.

#13 johnmhinds

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 13:43

This is such a flawed idea.

Reducing pit crews to change the pitstop times from 2.5 to 4 seconds won't make any difference to the finger trouble with wheel nuts in any way.

The length of time between attaching the wheel nut (or not attaching it) and the pit release is always going to be the same.

His suggestions just slow down the other things that happen before that.

#14 Blackmore

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 13:57

Get rid of pitstops altogether then with tyres that last a whole race. So you can only pit if there is a mechanical problem and to fix that, they need to roll the car into the garage. There is always a downside when you tinker with the way things are of course.

#15 Bloggsworth

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 14:35

Good idea; let's make them stop for a minimum of 30 seconds then penalise anyone who leaves 1/100 of a second too soon, that'll make the racing sooo much better.

#16 DKMoto

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 14:39

Pathetic article.

Remember kids, dont try to do anything too good, or dont try to take risks to be better than your opponents.

How about top 3 going to podium we should just give everyone in F1 a Ribbon? There are no losers!



#17 Lazy

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 15:14

Pathetic article.

Remember kids, dont try to do anything too good, or dont try to take risks to be better than your opponents.

How about top 3 going to podium we should just give everyone in F1 a Ribbon? There are no losers!

Yeah, let's wait until somebody gets killed (which that cameraman so easily could have been) and then do something about it.

#18 gm914

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 15:21

Give 'em all 5-lug rims.

Posted Image

I love the sound of a wheel gun. I want to hear it 40 times a stop, not 8! :cool:

Edited by gm914, 20 July 2013 - 15:22.


#19 pdac

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 15:31

Give 'em all 5-lug rims.

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I love the sound of a wheel gun. I want to hear it 40 times a stop, not 8! :cool:

They'd just develop a gun that can spin the 5 nuts all at once

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#20 pdac

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 15:33

You could set a minimum time that the car has to be stopped, say 5 secs. Take the pressure off a bit but still leave the possibility to lose time if you get it wrong.

Best idea for safety, I think. It also helps towards ensuring that the result is decided on the track and not in the pits.

#21 Gyno

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 15:39

Driver should turn the engine off as he stops in the pit then the car gets lifted by pneumatic cylinders.
Only 1 mechanic per wheel.
Car is lowered and driver starts the engine and drive off.

This would create more drama and exitment during the stops.


#22 mattferg

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 15:41

This is a terrible idea. What happened with Webber was a one-off and I'm sure everyone in the pits will be working hard to make sure it doesn't happen again. Having less guys working on the car and adding more pressure to those who are is not a way to solve this. More pressure = more mistakes. More guys = pressure spread out.

The lollipop man made a mistake. It happens. No reason to bring in stupid rash rules.

#23 eronrules

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 15:47

Pathetic article.

Remember kids, dont try to do anything too good, or dont try to take risks to be better than your opponents.

How about top 3 going to podium we should just give everyone in F1 a Ribbon? There are no losers!


why pathetic??? care to give a reason???

You could set a minimum time that the car has to be stopped, say 5 secs. Take the pressure off a bit but still leave the possibility to lose time if you get it wrong.


monitoring that would be a nightmare, the easiest solution is what GA proposes, there will still be the element of competitiveness, but the Stewards have to be harsh if the wheels are not put on their sides and also incase the wheel nuts aren't properly secured.

also, removing the 'traffic light' system and making 'human lolipops' mandatory should reduce such incidents.



#24 eronrules

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 15:48

This is a terrible idea. What happened with Webber was a one-off and I'm sure everyone in the pits will be working hard to make sure it doesn't happen again. Having less guys working on the car and adding more pressure to those who are is not a way to solve this. More pressure = more mistakes. More guys = pressure spread out.

The lollipop man made a mistake. It happens. No reason to bring in stupid rash rules.


IIRC, RBR/FErrari/Mclaren don't use lolipops, they use lights.

#25 mattferg

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 15:49

IIRC, RBR/FErrari/Mclaren don't use lolipops, they use lights.


Just referring to the text YOU QUOTED in the first place m8. I know they use light boards, RBR's is shaped like the Infinit logo.

#26 Vibe

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 16:01

I hate the fact that a loose bolt or a broken wheel gun can undo a drivers race.Pit stops IMO should be made 10 seconds minimum.A countdown from the moment the car stops,and release after 10 seconds.

Benefit - Less pit errors undoing drivers work,no unsafe release,enough time to make adjustments or replace front wing,and obviously safety benefits.

#27 gm914

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 16:17

They'd just develop a gun that can spin the 5 nuts all at once

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Checkmate! :lol:

#28 BlackCat

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 16:59

NO to mandatory pit stops, minimum time for a pit stop 2 minutes.

#29 Risil

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 17:03

100% agree. Well done Gary Anderson for saying so.

Note that he wasn't suggesting mandatory pit stop times, or "discouraging excellence" or somesuch. Just fewer members of the pitcrew, the result of which being more care taken during stops.

If that means more time in the pit lane and the end of F1's high-pitstop, high-degradation Pirelli-inspired fun, then so be it. The lives of mechanics, track workers and spectators come first.

What happened with Webber was a one-off


:confused:

Edited by Risil, 20 July 2013 - 17:05.


#30 SpartanChas

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 17:32

They'd just develop a gun that can spin the 5 nuts all at once

Just get one of these.

Posted Image

Edited by SpartanChas, 20 July 2013 - 17:32.


#31 ThadGreen

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 17:43

While the F1 tracks have been designed/modified in the name of safety pit stops have not. I'm surprised that more accidents haven't occurred. Having 20 or so individuals kneeling or crouching while the car stops between them and then having all four wheels removed and four different ones attached in the space of 3+ seconds really is asking for trouble. I don't like pit stops in F1 however they are mandatory and feel that the pit stop procedure should be modified in some way so as to make it safer. Perhaps having the pit crew wait behind a line until the car stops before they can start changing wheels and reduce the number of the pit crew. I'm don't support a specified time that a pit stop can last.

#32 pliskinrob

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 17:57

Despite it being unpopular opinion I wish they would bring back refueling, the longer pitstops helped reduce rogue wheels.

#33 muramasa

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 18:07

Despite it being unpopular opinion I wish they would bring back refueling, the longer pitstops helped reduce rogue wheels.

what we'll have instead is rogue hoses :p

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#34 Peat

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 18:33

As i have suggested elsewhere, you don't need 20 bl00dy people to change 4 wheel.

Make it one person per wheel, or set a (small) max no, of people in the box. Allow teams to work it out, it stays part of the 'game' and the best still rise to the top. The beautiful by-product is that it slows them down, gives the lollipop man half a chance to see what's happening.

#35 Group B

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 18:41

This is a terrible idea. What happened with Webber was a one-off and I'm sure everyone in the pits will be working hard to make sure it doesn't happen again. Having less guys working on the car and adding more pressure to those who are is not a way to solve this. More pressure = more mistakes. More guys = pressure spread out.

The lollipop man made a mistake. It happens. No reason to bring in stupid rash rules.

:up:
Accidents happen, you can't legislate for absolutely everything. If people were bably hurt in the pits at every race it would be an issue, but knee jerking now is not a sensible course of action. After all, I imagine at least one fan is badly hurt in a road crash on their way to attend once every 10 or 12 races, so does that mean we should ban crowds?

#36 Andrew Hope

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 18:47

The only thing that should be banned is banning things.

#37 Afterburner

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 19:02

No, no, no, no, and no. Who dares wins.

#38 TimRTC

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 19:35

This is a terrible idea. What happened with Webber was a one-of...


What is it, the third loose tyre this year? Not safe for drivers, marshals or fans and hardly entertaining for audiences.

I think a requirement to use a five nut rim as mentioned above, along with a regulation preventing a wheel gun from removing more than one nut at a time would ensure safer stops but still require teams to push their hardest. Better than a regulated minimum time or reducing number of crew.

Pit stops were longer before and no-one complained that it ruined the racing.

#39 redreni

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 19:36

A predictable furious overreaction to a perfectly sensible suggestion. Anderson is not suggesting a minimum pitstop time or anything that would fetter competition between the teams. It's a measure aimed at reducing the overall number of people exposed to danger in the pitlane, and improving sightlines for the people who release the cars to make it more likely that, if there's a problem, they will see it. I can't think of another form of motorsport that doesn't regulate the number of pit crew. If Anderson's measures only add 1.5s to a pitstop, in most cases that won't affect things enough to make teams change their strategy, so I don't think it's reasonable to oppose it on the grounds that it will discourage stopping.

Although Mattferg says the Webber incident was a "one off" I'll wager there have been more instances of cars being released without their wheels on in the three years since refuelling was banned than there were in the sixteen year period prior to that in which refuelling was allowed, which, if true, would suggest to anyone with a grey cell functioning that the shorter pitstop times and the fact that the wheel change is the limiting factor in pitstops, has a lot to do with this. This is not, therefore, a simple knee-jerk reaction, it is a rational response to a problem. If anything, Anderson's proposal arguably doesn't go far enough, as it is not a sure way of preventing cars being released without the wheels being fitted properly.

F1 could very easily adopt the system they have in FIA GT and in many other forms of sportscar racing, where the pit crew have to retreat behind the white line that separates the working lane from the garage, along with the wheels and tyres they've removed and their airguns, before the car can be released. This means the person releasing the car gets a clear view of it as there aren't people crowding around the car. It prevents incidents of the kind that occurred a few years ago when Yamamoto pulled away when there was a guy leaning over the car and the fellow ended up going under the rear wheel. It would also mean you wouldn't have airlines dangling in the path of the cars (put Ralf Schumacher Zandvoort pitstop into Youtube to see what happens when an airline is left dangling an the path of a car's rear wing) and most of all, it would prevent nearly every case of cars being released without the wheels on since the wheelgun man invariably knows if the wheel has gone on right or not, and he would not retreat behind the white line if the job wasn't done.

I'm opposed to minimum pitstop times or spec wheelnuts/wheelguns because I think, in F1, you have to let the teams innovate and compete. But it is ridiculous, in my view, to oppose further regulation of pitstops of the kind Andreson is suggesting when it is clear that so much more could be done to prevent the kind of nasty incident which we've seen too much of in recent years.

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#40 ClubmanGT

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 20:11

They'd just develop a gun that can spin the 5 nuts all at once


I think teams in the NZV8C had started using a device for this a couple of seasons ago.

#41 chrisblades85

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 20:19

F1 should be about being faster than anything else. The only thing I'd change, if it has to be slowed down, is the mechanic taking the wheel off should be the one to put the new one on.

#42 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 20:19

I don't see how reducing the number of people on each wheel will reduce the number of improperly fitted wheels. If anything I'd say it would increase the pressure on the guys to get it right and increase the rush to get the car going quickly. But it would reduce the number of bodies in pitlane that could be hit by errant wheels.

I wouldn't object to the "stand behind the line" idea. After all, most unsafe releases are due to the lollipop man misreading what the wheel changers are doing. Having them behind the line away from the car means less chance of misunderstanding.

Having said that, I don't think things particularly need to be changed. I suspect there's been a little too long a break since Germany and it's being focussed on a little too much.

#43 Les

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 20:34

I enjoy the Le Mans style pit-stops and would enjoy seeing them in F1. It is indeed ridiculous that it takes 20-odd folk to change 4 wheels. It wouldn't necessarily prevent what happened in Germany though. Technology needs to be improved and surely its possible to have a wheel gun that won't detach unless the wheel is properly on the car.

#44 alfa1

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 21:59


If they just increase the penalty for a loose wheel to instant disqualification,
the teams will fix the problem instantly.

But for few thousand dollars fine... I'm sure its just on a "to do" list in the bottom of the drawer.


#45 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 22:07

If they just increase the penalty for a loose wheel to instant disqualification,


I agree. Additionally, the problem here is that at this juncture the physical performance of the mechanics are, for all intents and purposes - as equally important as the driver, capable of losing a second of more off a lap. Do we want that?


#46 Lazy

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:34

You could set a minimum time that the car has to be stopped, say 5 secs. Take the pressure off a bit but still leave the possibility to lose time if you get it wrong.



monitoring that would be a nightmare

I'm not sure it would, they already have transponders to track the cars you could easily use them to monitor it. Or a small video camera and a simple bit of software could easily do the job.

#47 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:26

Give 'em all 5-lug rims.

Posted Image

I love the sound of a wheel gun. I want to hear it 40 times a stop, not 8! :cool:

Seriously, a very good idea. If they miss one the wheels still stay on the car.

#48 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:30

This is a terrible idea. What happened with Webber was a one-off and I'm sure everyone in the pits will be working hard to make sure it doesn't happen again. Having less guys working on the car and adding more pressure to those who are is not a way to solve this. More pressure = more mistakes. More guys = pressure spread out.

The lollipop man made a mistake. It happens. No reason to bring in stupid rash rules.

How many wheels have fallen off in recent tyres? Several to my memory. And they also have done one lap and came back as the wheel was loose.
The same thing happens in other branches of the sport too. V8 Supercars it was a regular thing, still happens even with slow fuel flow.
As for 5 nut guns,,, doooh. Simple the rules can say one nut per gun.
A control rattle gun! They can get a tool company to sponsor a spec wheel gun!

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 21 July 2013 - 07:34.


#49 Kelateboy

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:38

Minimize the number of pitcrew attending to a car during a stop. That would slow it down a bit, but I doubt if that would make it safer.

#50 redreni

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 16:00

If they just increase the penalty for a loose wheel to instant disqualification,
the teams will fix the problem instantly.

But for few thousand dollars fine... I'm sure its just on a "to do" list in the bottom of the drawer.


There's already a significant disincentive to release the car without the wheel on - if the car makes it out of the pit lane the pitcrew is unlikely to see it again until it comes back on the back of a truck. Eve if the car doesn't make it out of pit lane - like Webber's - it costs a massive amount of time and you can usually kiss goodbye to any hopes of scoring points (unless there's a subsquent SC which gifts you a lap relative to your competitors, and a cooperative clerk of the course who decides to keep the whole world waiting for two extra laps before going green just so you can catch up).

In other words, teams are not doing this on purpose. And if they retire from the race due to the loose wheel you can't disqualify them, you'd have to ban them from the next event. I prefer the option of regulating the pitstops to make it less likely to happen in the first place, rather than going down that road.