7 replies to this topic

[f1steveuk]

I have just been asked a question I thought I knew the answer to, now, I'm not so certain!

Having done a lot of research on the land and water speed records, and as I'm currently working with Reid Railton's daughter on a book project, I have a lot of notes and archive pertaining to Cobb's LSR attempts. Reading what I have, the only problems encountered when running post war, and returning to Utah, was carburation, and Railton's logs state that mixture adjustments were made, and alterations to the carb' floats.

I have been asked if there is any truth to the rumour, that drums of nitromethane were found years after the attempt, apparently used during the record runs.

Railton's logs merely state the adjustments were made, but only because during trials, the Napier's were running rough, there' no reference to a change of fuel. Sponsorship from Mobil and Gilmour were, I thought, mainly on the lubricant front, yet one document refers to "mixed fuel", whereas pre-war all references are to "Gasoline, aviation type".

Of course, nitromethane can eat away at various metals, but there is no evidence that I know of, that this is a problem on the Napier Railton as she is today. Has anyone else heard of the use of nitromethane in the post war record?

[Allan Lupton]

I've no information, but I'd have thought the altitude of the Bonneville flats would have required some carburetion adjustment pre- and post-war. As a guess I'd suggest that the Railton was run on the best aviation fuel of the time which would have been 100 MON pre-war and 130 PN post-war and accommodating that change might have needed a bit of carb tweaking.
The Napier-Railton did its 24-hour run in 1935 on National Benzole and a sample was tested at 79½ MON, where up to 82 was found in UK roadside pumps, according to Bill Boddy who doesn't mention fuel again. Can't see that it's state is relevant to the LSR car's fuel.

[Sebastian Tombs]

I've no idea what fuel Cobb used pre or post-war but f1steveuk will know that a potential competitor, the Mercedes T80, was powered by a 44.5 liter Daimler-Benz DB 603 inverted V12 which was derived from the DB 601 of Me 109 fame (and other types). The DB 601 ran on Avgas but the fuel for the 603 engine in the record car was a fiendish brew: methyl alcohol (63%), benzene (16%), ethanol (12%), acetone (4.4%), nitrobenzol (2.2%), avgas (2%), and ether (0.4%). I'd personally be surprised if Cobb ran on 'pump' Avgas.

ST

[f1steveuk]

I must admit, I always found it strange that Rod Banks, who came up with fuel cocktail that was used in the R Type in the S6, S6B, Blue Bird, car and boat, and Thunderbolt, was never approached, or got involved with Cobb's or Eyston's attempts (the mix was never changed for the LSR, so Bank's mix was before Eyston actually used the R).

Allan, if your comment, "Can't see that it's state is relevant to the LSR car's fuel." is in question to my remark about the Napier Railton's current condition in connection with the fuel used, I would have thought, due to the corrosive nature of Nitromethane, even with flushing and cleaning, I'd guess they would be some evidence, even today, that Nitro' might have been used, but there appears to be none.

I used to know Banks' R Type mix' off by heart, can't now though!

[Allan Lupton]

I must admit, I always found it strange that Rod Banks, who came up with fuel cocktail that was used in the R Type in the S6, S6B, Blue Bird, car and boat, and Thunderbolt, was never approached, or got involved with Cobb's or Eyston's attempts (the mix was never changed for the LSR, so Bank's mix was before Eyston actually used the R).

Allan, if your comment, "Can't see that it's state is relevant to the LSR car's fuel." is in question to my remark about the Napier Railton's current condition in connection with the fuel used, I would have thought, due to the corrosive nature of Nitromethane, even with flushing and cleaning, I'd guess they would be some evidence, even today, that Nitro' might have been used, but there appears to be none.

I used to know Banks' R Type mix' off by heart, can't now though!

The LSR car and the Napier Railton had little in common, the design task being very different. My point is that the N-R, being a long distance record car, would have run at a modest state of tune and therefore I assume had a conventional fuel, even if the LSR car did not.
I missed the chance to talk to Banks about fuels, as when he was our MD at Hatfield it was one of my colleagues, not me, who once travelled with him on a transatlantic 707. I read his book, but really must buy a copy.
That Mercedes T80 was constrained to run in Germany, so would have needed great power to give it the necessary acceleration to make the start of the measured mile/kilometre at enough speed. Using a fuel similar to the Standard Oil Co's WW (46% Methyl alcohol, 8.8% acetone, 4.4% nitrobenzene amd 0.8% ether) which was used in 1937 to get 646 b.h.p. from the M125 would have needed a pretty strong engine, so that may be the reason for the milder fuel quoted for it.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 21 July 2013 - 17:29.

[f1steveuk]

The LSR car and the Napier Railton had little in common, the design task being very different. My point is that the N-R, being a long distance record car, would have run at a modest state of tune and therefore I assume had a conventional fuel, even if the LSR car did not.
I missed the chance to talk to Banks about fuels, as when he was our MD at Hatfield it was one of my colleagues, not me, who once travelled with him on a transatlantic 707. I read his book, but really must buy a copy.
That Mercedes T80 was constrained to run in Germany, so would have needed great power to give it the necessary acceleration to make the start of the measured mile/kilometre at enough speed. Using a fuel similar to the Standard Oil Co's WW (46% Methyl alcohol, 8.8% acetone, 4.4% nitrobenzene amd 0.8% ether) which was used in 1937 to get 646 b.h.p. from the M125 would have needed a pretty strong engine, so that may be the reason for the milder fuel quoted for it.

Ah, I'm with you now, Napier Railton (single engine) and Napier Railton (LSR car). There's no suggestion the single engine car used Nitromethane, only the Mobil/Gilmour Napier Railton land speed car. I am awaiting a photo of one of the barrels and the label that was attached.

[Tim Murray]

Cough ...

To be absolutely pedantic about it, it was the Railton Mobil Special only in 1947. Previously it was designed, built, entered, and officially recorded as a Railton. It is only with the passing of time that some have added the engine type and arrived at Napier Railton (no "Special" pre war). So in reality we are talking about the Railton. In much the same way as it's not the "Golden Arrow" it's the 'Irving Napier'

[Allan Lupton]

Ah, I'm with you now, Napier Railton (single engine) and Napier Railton (LSR car). There's no suggestion the single engine car used Nitromethane, only the Mobil/Gilmour Napier Railton land speed car. I am awaiting a photo of one of the barrels and the label that was attached.

That's cleared the misunderstanding up.
I had assumed that a man of your knowledge would only have written "Napier-Railton" to refer to the Napier Railton, not the LSR car which (as remembered above) was always the Railton pre-war and Railton Mobil Special post-war.
The unsupercharged Lion in the N-R wouldn't have benefitted from fancy fuels as much as the supercharged jobs in the LSR car anyway.