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Indian Grand Prix in trouble?


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#51 SpaMaster

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 18:55

There's no way in hell the teams and drivers will agree to pay 70% tax to India out of 5% of their revenues. No way. Unless the Indian authorities back off, the race is as dead as the dodo.

If you know the Indian authorities, they would only see it as a win and it would only be difficult for F1 to enter India again. The news will probably be publicized in a good light for them where they paint F1 as an elitist group that does not want to pay their due taxes and want special treatment from the authority. Because if they are given tax breaks, there would PILs (public interest litigations) thrown around all over. It would be a nightmare. The authorities already know in what light F1 is viewed in India. It is a democratic country. A move like this would have lot of support from the people. F1 can continue to go to countries that would spend state's and people's money to fill their coffers. I see it as F1 failing in India, not being able to trick the locals and tap into the huge market.

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#52 SpaMaster

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 18:57

I'm sorry, but I'd like to see a source on that one. Taxation laws in India usually don't work like that. Taxation on revenue rather than profits? I've never heard that before...

Edit: yup, just checked various news sources. They say that the revenue would be subject to tax. I think that techspeed's assumption is wrong. Tax in India is calculated after deducting costs, just like anywhere else in the world.

Exactly. That was a baseless accusation. Tax is not on the whole revenue by default. If that's the case, all the businesses India would have gone bankrupt.

#53 Baddoer

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 20:33

Aside from politics, Buddh International Circuit is not that bad as some Tilke creations and certainly better than upcoming horrible Sochi track.

#54 Atreiu

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 21:44

Aside from politics, Buddh International Circuit is not that bad as some Tilke creations and certainly better than upcoming horrible Sochi track.


The incredibly dull races beg me to differ.

#55 Wretched

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 00:06

meh good riddance to bad rubbish.
I saw about 10 laps of the race last year and decided I'd give the race a miss.

#56 Myrvold

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 00:28

The incredibly dull races beg me to differ.


Dull race doesn't mean that it is a bad circuit.

#57 loki

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 00:40

I don't think I'd tax endorsement income, but don't things like Athletics and Tennis(and I guess golf?) pay significant event-specific prize money? On paper at least that should be earnings on work in Country X.


I can see taxing specific purse money awarded in country but that's not how F1 pays or what India wants to do.


#58 loki

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 00:52

Exactly. That was a baseless accusation. Tax is not on the whole revenue by default. If that's the case, all the businesses India would have gone bankrupt.


The part you aren't getting is they want to tax revenue that is not made in India. That isn't common. It's India's loss. There isn't a large motorsport culture compared to the overall population numbers and the benefit is to the local economy. F1 has plenty of other locales that are easier with which to deal and are interested in doing business. The market has huge potential but they have to be realistic about what they can get and how others see them in terms of dealing with customs, visas, etc.

#59 Ensign

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 02:06

Hungary has been a democratic, parliamentary republic since 1989.


Ah, but do they spy on us, give weapons to Mexican drug gangs, allow CIA kidnappings on their soil, engage in regime change on a regular basis, and imprison political incorrect Tweeters? No? Then I'm afraid they are not a real democracy like America and Britain. :)

As for India, it doesn't sound like there's much demand for F1. The two races there so far - two of the worst of their respective years - couldn't have done much to create new interest. Unfortunately, it seems Sochi is another street circuit :rolleyes: so I doubt we're going to get that much of an improvement.

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#60 noikeee

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:47

India is a weird circuit, it looked good on paper and had 1 or 2 decent corners but the races were awful and so was the atmosphere around it. In that sense it was a bit like Istanbul but worse. I won't particularly miss it greatly, although wouldn't be shocked to see it return somewhere in the recent future.

I wonder what'll happen to the place if it's off from F1 forever though (same for Korea). A gigantic investment was made there for just 2 or 3 races - someone burnt a hell of a lot of money for very little. I can't imagine these tracks being used by a whole lot of racing other than F1.

#61 Alfisti

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 13:12

Reports in some parts of the F1 world saying it's been axed for 2014, to return 2015.

India is just like China, Korea, Bahrain and Istanbul, tracks just plonked in the middle of **** knows where in places that don't give a rats tit about racing. Absolutely zero ambiance coming through the TV, non, zero, nada. Yabbi Dabbio is probably the worst track of the lot but at least looks half decent on TV, as with Singapore. TBH all those I just mentioned could bugger off tomorrow and i would not miss them, turn your TV on and Melbourne or Montreal or Spa Francorchamps beam into your living room and it feels 100 times different.

#62 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 13:14

We've had two Indian races so far. Can't even remember what the 2011 and 2012 races were like, think that says enough.

#63 SpaMaster

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 14:54

The part you aren't getting is they want to tax revenue that is not made in India. That isn't common. It's India's loss. There isn't a large motorsport culture compared to the overall population numbers and the benefit is to the local economy. F1 has plenty of other locales that are easier with which to deal and are interested in doing business. The market has huge potential but they have to be realistic about what they can get and how others see them in terms of dealing with customs, visas, etc.

They are free to prove whatever profits that correspond to India. If they can't prove that clearly, it is their problem. 1/20 is the most straight-forward starting point. It is up to the team explain anything more on that.

India is one of the countries that does not subsidize F1. Lot of motorsport culture countries subsidize F1. F1 wanted to be in India when the Government of India was not willing to support the race in any form, and, F1 was told 'you are on your own here'. So who needs whom more here? So far, F1 has wanted India more than the other way because of the huge potential the Indian market presents. F1 is looking to gain from that. The government or the local population has shown no interest anywhere close to that. The F1 race makes no difference to the day-to-day life of most Indians. They don't even hear much about it. India will always be a country that gave one back to Ecclestone, and was not willing to play by his rule. With the Indian government authorities, Ecclestone has met his match.

#64 Atreiu

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 14:54

Dull race doesn't mean that it is a bad circuit.


Doesn't matter.
The races were dull and boring and made neither season any more memorable or worthy.
That's enough reason to drop it to me.

#65 SpaMaster

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 15:04

Everyone taking it out on the circuit when the thread subject is not at all about that. Most of the drivers disagree with you who are effusive in their praise whenever they visit the circuit. The reason is very simple - It is a very fast and flowing circuit, lot of high speed corners and even the tight corners are very fast there and the circuit has huge elevation changes back and forth. This kind of circuit does not promote much overtaking, particularly when the tyre choices were so conservative, but that does not mean the circuit is not challenging. The drivers' responses confirm that.

#66 Exb

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 15:35

Could there be a doubt with Sochi as well? Adam Cooper reporting that Russian press suggesting there is a dispute between federation and promoter and an application for a 2014 date has been delayed.
Not sure if this is an issue or not for a GP there next year?

Edited by Exb, 31 July 2013 - 15:36.


#67 BrawnGeePee

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 15:38

The Buddh circuit had the same aura, in terms of crowd and ambience, of the Istanbul Park, in which the latter seems to had a better circuit layout...and if Turkey is even out of the race calendar, then no doubt the Indian GP should currently have this kind of struggle too, especially as they had a tenser internal political constraints there :|

Edited by BrawnGeePee, 31 July 2013 - 15:39.


#68 Laffite

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 17:04

Reports in some parts of the F1 world saying it's been axed for 2014, to return 2015.

India is just like China, Korea, Bahrain and Istanbul, tracks just plonked in the middle of **** knows where in places that don't give a rats tit about racing. Absolutely zero ambiance coming through the TV, non, zero, nada. Yabbi Dabbio is probably the worst track of the lot but at least looks half decent on TV, as with Singapore. TBH all those I just mentioned could bugger off tomorrow and i would not miss them, turn your TV on and Melbourne or Montreal or Spa Francorchamps beam into your living room and it feels 100 times different.


Is Sepang in this lot? I hope not!


#69 Alfisti

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 18:04

No I left out Sepang because it seems to have some ambiance and support as well as looking unique.

#70 Talisman

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 18:16

They are free to prove whatever profits that correspond to India. If they can't prove that clearly, it is their problem. 1/20 is the most straight-forward starting point. It is up to the team explain anything more on that.

India is one of the countries that does not subsidize F1. Lot of motorsport culture countries subsidize F1. F1 wanted to be in India when the Government of India was not willing to support the race in any form, and, F1 was told 'you are on your own here'. So who needs whom more here? So far, F1 has wanted India more than the other way because of the huge potential the Indian market presents. F1 is looking to gain from that. The government or the local population has shown no interest anywhere close to that. The F1 race makes no difference to the day-to-day life of most Indians. They don't even hear much about it. India will always be a country that gave one back to Ecclestone, and was not willing to play by his rule. With the Indian government authorities, Ecclestone has met his match.


Except India isn't on a par with ecclestone at all. As usual indian bureaucracy gets in the way and perpetuates the old stereotype that whatever indian private enterprise can come up with, the indian government will destroy. Well done India! Commiserations to JayPee and the indian population that have to live under incompetent rule.

#71 sesku

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 18:16

Is Sepang in this lot? I hope not!

Sepang not in the middle of nowhere, it basically sit next to the international airport, plus the circuit look alive with trees, so green! so tropical!

#72 SpaMaster

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 18:52

Except India isn't on a par with ecclestone at all. As usual indian bureaucracy gets in the way and perpetuates the old stereotype that whatever indian private enterprise can come up with, the indian government will destroy. Well done India! Commiserations to JayPee and the indian population that have to live under incompetent rule.

Non-sense, unnecessarily slagging off India. This has nothing to do with bureaucracy. It is a simple tax rule. You pay income tax for racing in India. Even filing tax does not involve lot of bureaucracy in India. I filed it in 10 min online. While filing in US used to take hours, different taxes for federal, state, local and county - some of them online and some paper filing. In India everyone can file online.

At least we don't bomb around countries. Developed countries spoil the world more than countries like India. So, stop the condescending attitude. Stop throwing around words like bureaucratic problems with this. This has nothing to do with that. Sure, we have some problems. But that is a growing pain with any developing country. Your country may not have been any better when they were developing (if you are from a developed country, if not this is hypocritical) and I don't need to get into what these countries were doing just a few decades back. So everyone has their negatives, so don't play high-horse.

Ecclestone is no saint. He is tough-cookie crook who has made a fortune out of the con jobs and he certainly met his match with the Indian authorities, that's what I meant. Now, if he wants to push further, he can try to bribe some bureaucrat or politician, but rest assured, the Delhi Police or the Mumbai Police will catch him. Then there would be lot of fun. But I guess he is in no mood for that since he is busy with some of his old act catching up with him in Germany.

Edited by SpaMaster, 31 July 2013 - 18:59.


#73 Talisman

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 19:32

Non-sense, unnecessarily slagging off India. This has nothing to do with bureaucracy. It is a simple tax rule. You pay income tax for racing in India. Even filing tax does not involve lot of bureaucracy in India. I filed it in 10 min online. While filing in US used to take hours, different taxes for federal, state, local and county - some of them online and some paper filing. In India everyone can file online.

At least we don't bomb around countries. Developed countries spoil the world more than countries like India. So, stop the condescending attitude. Stop throwing around words like bureaucratic problems with this. This has nothing to do with that. Sure, we have some problems. But that is a growing pain with any developing country. Your country may not have been any better when they were developing (if you are from a developed country, if not this is hypocritical) and I don't need to get into what these countries were doing just a few decades back. So everyone has their negatives, so don't play high-horse.

Ecclestone is no saint. He is tough-cookie crook who has made a fortune out of the con jobs and he certainly met his match with the Indian authorities, that's what I meant. Now, if he wants to push further, he can try to bribe some bureaucrat or politician, but rest assured, the Delhi Police or the Mumbai Police will catch him. Then there would be lot of fun. But I guess he is in no mood for that since he is busy with some of his old act catching up with him in Germany.


You're right.

The problem is not bureaucratic and that is my mistake. Its about poor goverment.

Losing the F1 race because of taxation systems that are out of step with international standards is merely a symptom. Ask yourself why inward investment to India lags behind the most obvious comparison, China. Ask yourself why Indian politicians of all hues cannot understand why the gangrape and murder of a young professional Indian woman could possibly cause so much public angst and how blaming young girls for being so promiscuous doesn't cut it anymore.

F1 is merely a turbocharged version of globalisation. If your government doesn't make it super-easy for the circus to come to town it will simply go elsewhere. Russia today, Mexico or America tomorrow (preferably both).

Of course only Indians lose in terms of loss of publicity and income. I don't care about a GP in India and judging from this thread noone else does either. Only Indians lose from having such a poor governmental system too, it really isn't my problem, its yours.

#74 SpaMaster

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 19:49

^ Why should Indian taxation system be similar to other countries? Does Britain give tax exemption to their drivers? These rich drivers and rich teams need tax exemptions, eh? Sorry, I feel that only those with the lowest slab of salaries deserve total tax exemption. They are free to do any business deal with government and public entities. But claiming tax exemption is simply not acceptable. I don't understand how this can be so difficult to understand. Pay the damn income tax if you earn income.

We don't have to follow China, for good or bad. Why do expect the Indian government to facilitate F1 to come to India? F1 is not important to India. You can ask the people here, they don't care about F1. F1 wanted India. The huge market was enticing for them. They still can't leave the country, can they? Still want to return for 2015. Rest of your post generalizing India to some individual incidents is gibberish. The hedging countries that roll out the carpet have suffered from economic downturn, India is doing just fine, thanks. We don't need F1 to thrive, get publicity, income, etc.

#75 Talisman

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 20:00

^ Why should Indian taxation system be similar to other countries? Does Britain give tax exemption to their drivers? These rich drivers and rich teams need tax exemptions, eh? Sorry, I feel that only those with the lowest slab of salaries deserve total tax exemption. They are free to do any business deal with government and public entities. But claiming tax exemption is simply not acceptable. I don't understand how this can be so difficult to understand. Pay the damn income tax if you earn income.


If it isn't so difficult to understand why is it you don't understand it?

Drivers are not taxed for income tax for the individual countries they race in. They are taxed according to where they reside. Why is it do you think that drivers suddenly move to Monaco or Switzerland when they hit it big? Did you think it was the quality of the cheese?

Teams don't earn income directly from India. They are paid a set fee according to where they finish in the WCC from FOM. I'm not entirely sure about the tax arrangements but I do know it is highly tax efficient and payments do not go through the countries that host races.

This is irritating for host countries (including the UK BTW which is where I live and which misses out on a lot of F1 related tax) but as other multinationals have shown very little tax needs to be paid at all if you understand taxation systems internationally and know how to fiddle the system.

What India is doing is not the international norm but it really doesn't matter as they will not have a race in the long term.

We don't have to follow China, for good or bad. Why do expect the Indian government to facilitate F1 to come to India? F1 is not important to India. You can ask the people here, they don't care about F1. F1 wanted India. The huge market was enticing for them. They still can't leave the country, can they? Still want to return for 2015. Rest of your post generalizing India to some individual incidents is gibberish. The hedging countries that roll out the carpet have suffered from economic downturn, India is doing just fine, thanks. We don't need F1 to thrive, get publicity, income, etc.


No, you do not have to follow China but perhaps you should ask questions as to why your country is not fulfilling its potential for growth and its capacity to improve the quality of life for its citizens. I do understand Indians don't care for F1 but ultimately nor do Arabs or Chinese. They understand however its use to change the image of a country and promote tourism. Clearly neither are important for India, or Indians do not grasp those higher concepts.

India isn't doing just fine btw, your growth rate has dropped off significantly and shows little signs of improving back to previous rates typical of BRIC countries.

#76 Fastcake

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 20:08

^ Why should Indian taxation system be similar to other countries? Does Britain give tax exemption to their drivers? These rich drivers and rich teams need tax exemptions, eh? Sorry, I feel that only those with the lowest slab of salaries deserve total tax exemption. They are free to do any business deal with government and public entities. But claiming tax exemption is simply not acceptable. I don't understand how this can be so difficult to understand. Pay the damn income tax if you earn income.


As I understand it, outside of Cricket India isn't a particularly sporty nation, but if your country does want to hold more international events then you'll have to ensure they're not caught up in bureaucratic and taxation issues that don't exist elsewhere. As has been mentioned, the Indian government is trying to tax revenue that is not earned in the country, it is not reasonable to assume that 1/20 of a teams revenue comes directly from India just because one race out of 20 is held there. If there was event-specific prize money in F1 like some other sports, then taxing that would be normal - which is probably why there isn't.

I'm not sure why you seem to be taking this personally. You are not your country.

#77 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 20:19

I am not smart enough to have an opinion in general of which tax systems are the favorable ones.

I do note that Phil Mickelson won the Britsih Open and had to pay about 44% of the price money in taxes, and I am pretty certain that there are in fact price money at all Grand Epreuves, those I can not see an issue in India taxing.

A couple of years ago David Coulthard commented that they were paying taxes all over the world, different rates in different countries and that they idea that they all lived in Monte Carlo and Switzerland in order to avoid taxes were somewhat off the mark.

I lived in Switzerland and paid somewhere between 28 and 32 percent in taxes, and then you buy your health coverage as an insurance aside from that.

:cool:

#78 Alfisti

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 20:19

Sepang not in the middle of nowhere, it basically sit next to the international airport, plus the circuit look alive with trees, so green! so tropical!


This.

#79 Talisman

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 20:31

I do note that Phil Mickelson won the Britsih Open and had to pay about 44% of the price money in taxes, and I am pretty certain that there are in fact price money at all Grand Epreuves, those I can not see an issue in India taxing.


This is the point though isn't it?

In golf or tennis etc the competitions are separate from each other. If you win Wimbledon you are paid by the Lawn Tennis Association from the UK and are subject to British taxes. You are not paid a specific amount purely for being seeded no.1. If the system was different so that prize money was pooled and you were paid according to your seeding at the end of the year your income would be exceedingly difficult to tax for the countries that host the tournaments.

If Ferrari wins the Indian GP they do not receive income from the Indian race organisers for finishing first. Therefore there is nothing to tax. Their only income from F1 itself (as opposed to sponsors etc) comes from FOM for finishing in a particular position in the WCC.

This isn't a coincidence, F1 has been singled out as one of the most tax-efficient sports around.

The only people the Indian government can realistically tax according to international norms are the Indian race organisers and promoters and the small-time traders who I presume can access the track to sell food and merchandise. Oh and Karun and Narain if they still spend most of their time in India.

Edited by Talisman, 31 July 2013 - 20:32.


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#80 Ze Bum

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 20:38

This is the point though isn't it?

In golf or tennis etc the competitions are separate from each other. If you win Wimbledon you are paid by the Lawn Tennis Association from the UK and are subject to British taxes. You are not paid a specific amount purely for being seeded no.1. If the system was different so that prize money was pooled and you were paid according to your seeding at the end of the year your income would be exceedingly difficult to tax for the countries that host the tournaments.

If Ferrari wins the Indian GP they do not receive income from the Indian race organisers for finishing first. Therefore there is nothing to tax. Their only income from F1 itself (as opposed to sponsors etc) comes from FOM for finishing in a particular position in the WCC.

This isn't a coincidence, F1 has been singled out as one of the most tax-efficient sports around.

The only people the Indian government can realistically tax according to international norms are the Indian race organisers and promoters and the small-time traders who I presume can access the track to sell food and merchandise. Oh and Karun and Narain if they still spend most of their time in India.


That's why the race organisers pay FOM a large amount of money for the race so FOM can pay the teams later. THAT is the income India should be taxing. Not the teams or drivers.


#81 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 21:10

But my contention is that there used to be price money for each Grand Epreuve and as far as I know there still is, the powers that be just decide to keep these a secret. Those I can see India going after, I have to agree that I can not see justification for India going after money earned in other countries.

:cool:

#82 Fastcake

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 21:57

But my contention is that there used to be price money for each Grand Epreuve and as far as I know there still is, the powers that be just decide to keep these a secret. Those I can see India going after, I have to agree that I can not see justification for India going after money earned in other countries.

:cool:


God knows how it all works currently, but if there is still prize money I would imagine it depends on how it gets paid whether India can tax it or not. I.e. does FOM pay teams for winning the Indian Grand Prix, or does it pay for x-amount of first places; is the money separate or part of the big payment every year? I'm just guessing here, but I know Bernie will try to avoid as much tax as possible.

#83 packapoo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:16

But my contention is that there used to be price money for each Grand Epreuve and as far as I know there still is, the powers that be just decide to keep these a secret. Those I can see India going after, I have to agree that I can not see justification for India going after money earned in other countries.

:cool:


I thought what you're contending went the way of the Dodo at about the same time?
Isn't the pot earned today divvied up according to the terms of the CA?

#84 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 15:06

If it isn't so difficult to understand why is it you don't understand it?

Drivers are not taxed for income tax for the individual countries they race in. They are taxed according to where they reside. Why is it do you think that drivers suddenly move to Monaco or Switzerland when they hit it big? Did you think it was the quality of the cheese?

First know the basics of taxation. I am beginning to think that I am discussing with someone for whom taxation is a very abstract concept. Countries where you earn income always have the first right to levy tax on you. The residing countries come next. That's why many residing countries deduce the income that was already taxed at the income generating country. Any country has a right to levy tax on income being generated from their country. If this is wrong, this would have been settled by an international court, long time back. There is nothing wrong with levying income tax at the place of generation.

Teams don't earn income directly from India. They are paid a set fee according to where they finish in the WCC from FOM. I'm not entirely sure about the tax arrangements but I do know it is highly tax efficient and payments do not go through the countries that host races.

Yeah? Where does FOM get the money from? If FOM does not generate its income from the races, is it falling from the sky? If it is coming from the races, then it is coming from individual races.

This is irritating for host countries (including the UK BTW which is where I live and which misses out on a lot of F1 related tax) but as other multinationals have shown very little tax needs to be paid at all if you understand taxation systems internationally and know how to fiddle the system.

What India is doing is not the international norm but it really doesn't matter as they will not have a race in the long term.

India was not begging F1 to me and race there. If they don't race, India doesn't care.

No, you do not have to follow China but perhaps you should ask questions as to why your country is not fulfilling its potential for growth and its capacity to improve the quality of life for its citizens.

We all ask questions and that has nothing do with F1. Every country has its questions, they all have had/have their problems. No country has taken more of a higher than thou attitude than others in terms of timescale, resources and opportunities. Many of these problems are related to the nature of human societies rather than individual countries. This is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

They understand however its use to change the image of a country and promote tourism.

Again, not true. Indians don't think of F1 as image-changing or image-boosting vehicle. It just shows the elitist attitude you have of F1.

Clearly neither are important for India, or Indians do not grasp those higher concepts.

India isn't doing just fine btw, your growth rate has dropped off significantly and shows little signs of improving back to previous rates typical of BRIC countries.

Growth rate, blah blah.. Growth rate is just a number. Development and well-being are very different. As far as I am concerned, I focus on the country, I don't care who is pushing what higher numbers each year. This is not some game.

#85 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 15:19

As I understand it, outside of Cricket India isn't a particularly sporty nation,

Should we be?

but if your country does want to hold more international events

Why do you expect that Indians want to hold more international events? They certainly don't attach that sort of significance to F1. F1 is still a hugely unknown sport in India.

then you'll have to ensure they're not caught up in bureaucratic and taxation issues that don't exist elsewhere.


There is no bureaucracy related to this. India's tax laws relating to this case are very simple and I agree with those. Pay income tax for the income you generate in India. This is not a taxation issue.

As has been mentioned, the Indian government is trying to tax revenue that is not earned in the country, it is not reasonable to assume that 1/20 of a teams revenue comes directly from India just because one race out of 20 is held there. If there was event-specific prize money in F1 like some other sports, then taxing that would be normal - which is probably why there isn't.

F1 can prove whatever money they earned in India and pay tax for it. F1 as a sport generates income. Its income comes from its racing. It has 20 races. One of the races is India's. Not a bad argument to make. If you can prove convincingly of more accurate numbers, you are free to prove it. If you can't prove it, then your arguments are abstract and don't blame the other party. Prize money is not the only money from a race. What happens to court-side sponsor money, TV viewership sponsor money and ads? You don't get all that from the Indian race? It does not go into the teams', FOM's and drivers' coffers?

I'm not sure why you seem to be taking this personally. You are not your country.

You mean you expect just one-sided arguments and you don't expect someone to present the other side of the argument. Calling it as personal is totally irrelevant. I am just answering responses. That's all.

Edited by SpaMaster, 01 August 2013 - 15:30.


#86 Kobasmashi

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 15:46

I hope not. It's a fix, first Valencia, now India maybe. They'll take Suzuka, Korea and Bahrain next!

Should've got rid of Hungary!

Bias off


Dude what is wrong with you?! Suzuka is one of the only real challenges left on the calendar!

I wouldn't miss India, the high average speed is rather a gimmick considering the cars can't follow each other through the middle sector, and the setting is totally miserable.

#87 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 16:17

^ Cars can follow each other in the similar sectors in Suzuka? Suzuka is a great track, but it is no text book for racing/overtaking.

#88 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 16:37

Most of the issues with boring tracks, is really down to the aero rules allowing the cars to be designed so they can corner at 4000 kmp/h. Less aero grip is something which would make for better racing instantly, we all know that, what I do not know is the reason why the simple solution is not applied.

Some tracks are boring through being made too safe, I am all for no deaths in F1 however Eau Rouge is not the corner it used to be, the gravel traps being made into tarmac runoff areas make for less spectacular racing, and with the Grosjean overtake from Hungary in mind, if the powers that is do not want the drivers to exceed the track confines, then make the curbs so they punish the drivers driving over them.

In other news thr Russian Grand Prix missed the deadline for applying for a race date, seems a calender hole may be re-opening. I am pretty certain that New Jersey will not happen in 2014 either.

:cool:

#89 Kvothe

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 17:39

Dude what is wrong with you?! Suzuka is one of the only real challenges left on the calendar!

I wouldn't miss India, the high average speed is rather a gimmick considering the cars can't follow each other through the middle sector, and the setting is totally miserable.


He's just making the point (hopefully in irony) that all of the races that have disappeared recently have tendered to favour Red Bull and in particularly Sebastian Vettel, hence his suggestion of Hungary, the only long standing track Vettel has yet to win at.

#90 Fastcake

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 17:41

Should we be?

Why do you expect that Indians want to hold more international events? They certainly don't attach that sort of significance to F1. F1 is still a hugely unknown sport in India.


I'm not saying you should, but if India ever wants to you generally have to make things easy for them. Look at the rules the IOC or FIFA force on host cities, and while they have more clout being the biggest sporting events around, other sports are starting to get in on the act. Sports will always have somewhere else to go.

There is no bureaucracy related to this. India's tax laws relating to this case are very simple and I agree with those. Pay income tax for the income you generate in India. This is not a taxation issue.

F1 can prove whatever money they earned in India and pay tax for it. F1 as a sport generates income. Its income comes from its racing. It has 20 races. One of the races is India's. Not a bad argument to make. If you can prove convincingly of more accurate numbers, you are free to prove it. If you can't prove it, then your arguments are abstract and don't blame the other party. Prize money is not the only money from a race. What happens to court-side sponsor money, TV viewership sponsor money and ads? You don't get all that from the Indian race? It does not go into the teams', FOM's and drivers' coffers?


It's very unorthodox to assume the income is evenly generated from each event and trying to tax it, that's the thing. Someone mentioned Athletes getting their global endorsements taxed in Britain, which ends up making it a financial loss for top athletes to compete, and just ends up keeping them away. It's a similar thing here, India is trying to tax F1 differently than elsewhere, which could end up with the race leaving the country and the Indian government receiving nothing.

#91 Talisman

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 18:09

First know the basics of taxation. I am beginning to think that I am discussing with someone for whom taxation is a very abstract concept. Countries where you earn income always have the first right to levy tax on you. The residing countries come next. That's why many residing countries deduce the income that was already taxed at the income generating country. Any country has a right to levy tax on income being generated from their country. If this is wrong, this would have been settled by an international court, long time back. There is nothing wrong with levying income tax at the place of generation.


I presume this point is entirely aimed at personal income tax in which case you are wrong.

If you work for company A in the UK which sends you for an extended weekend conference in India then India cannot tax the proportion of your income that was earned while you are in India, at least if the taxation system is at all in line with international norms.

I think you are confusing it with when company A sends you to work for their subsidiary company B for several months in India where you would have a contract and income based in India which would of course be subject to Indian tax.

Yeah? Where does FOM get the money from? If FOM does not generate its income from the races, is it falling from the sky? If it is coming from the races, then it is coming from individual races.


Some of FOM's income comes directly from tracks, but there are taxation loopholes to get this money out of a country without being taxed. If you think India can do what no other country has managed taxing F1 while having a taxation system that is to international norms then good luck!

If they don't race, India doesn't care.


Tell me, does JayPee feel the same way?

Again, not true. Indians don't think of F1 as image-changing or image-boosting vehicle. It just shows the elitist attitude you have of F1.


It might be elitist but I suspect you're the one who doesn't understand things here. Why did you think India bid for an F1 race in the first place if there is no motorsport fanbase in India?

Do you think the Chinese pay over the top for their race because they are fanatical about F1? Why do Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Singapore, Malaysia and South Korea do the same? None of them have motorsport histories, they use F1 as a promotional tool for their countries or regions. If you think this is an elitist attitude then you're right but you'd be naive to think all those countries are bidding for races at huge expense for any other reason.

Ditto Abu Dhabi spending ridiculous amounts of money buying and funding Manchester City. It isn't a love of football or a non-descript city in the north of the UK which drives them, its a promotional tool for their city-state.

Growth rate, blah blah.. Growth rate is just a number. Development and well-being are very different. As far as I am concerned, I focus on the country, I don't care who is pushing what higher numbers each year. This is not some game.


So you don't think that quality of life is at all connected with economic development? Okay...

Edited by Talisman, 01 August 2013 - 18:10.


#92 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 18:30

I presume this point is entirely aimed at personal income tax in which case you are wrong.

If you work for company A in the UK which sends you for an extended weekend conference in India then India cannot tax the proportion of your income that was earned while you are in India, at least if the taxation system is at all in line with international norms.

Do you earn income by attending a conference? An income generated in India, be that through an individual or through the teams, has provisions to be taxed. If driver cannot be taxed, the amount which would otherwise be an expenditure of the team would be added to the team as income and be taxed. Nobody says the drivers are specifically targeted this way. The point is income is being generated from India and that can be taxed.

Some of FOM's income comes directly from tracks, but there are taxation loopholes to get this money out of a country without being taxed. If you think India can do what no other country has managed taxing F1 while having a taxation system that is to international norms then good luck!

So, these loopholes are the same and exist in all the countries to the word? If so, you think nobody can close the loophole. Or, are you just presenting some hypothetical situation that is not there in reality for the sake of argument?

Tell me, does JayPee feel the same way?


Is JayPee India?

It might be elitist but I suspect you're the one who doesn't understand things here. Why did you think India bid for an F1 race in the first place if there is no motorsport fanbase in India?

India never bid for an F1 race. An individual business group did. In fact, no Central Government representative has ever presented the Indian Government for the race.

Do you think the Chinese pay over the top for their race because they are fanatical about F1? Why do Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Singapore, Malaysia and South Korea do the same? None of them have motorsport histories, they use F1 as a promotional tool for their countries or regions. If you think this is an elitist attitude then you're right but you'd be naive to think all those countries are bidding for races at huge expense for any other reason.

Well, I don't agree with the way those countries host F1 races - putting in taxpayers' money for F1 race. F1 has had a habit of ripping off these countries of these money and they move from one country to the other. Who is losing money and who is gaining money here? If this ever happens India, I myself personally would file a public interest litigation case against this and ask the government to prove reasonable pathway for profit from such a business deal? The Government would then be ripped apart in public. You seriously think hosting an F1 race with taxpayers' money is a good thing for the taxpayers? Thanks, but no thanks.

Ditto Abu Dhabi spending ridiculous amounts of money buying and funding Manchester City. It isn't a love of football or a non-descript city in the north of the UK which drives them, its a promotional tool for their city-state.

If there is a solid business plan and the money is something that can be hedged against risks given who control it, good for them. But hell would break loose if the Indian Government buys a similar football club with Indian taxpayers' money.

So you don't think that quality of life is at all connected with economic development? Okay...

You think growth rate is the comprehensive indicator of inclusive growth and overall well-being of all citizens, more importantly the ones who are at the bottom-most?

#93 g1n

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 19:29

Well that was short and sweet for the Indian GP. Bring on Russia, let's see what they can do.

#94 BRG

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 19:54

Well that was short and sweet for the Indian GP. Bring on Russia, let's see what they can do.

India out, New Jersey and Sochi won't happen, Korea heading for the door.

Bernie needs more of those despised European events after all.....

#95 ExFlagMan

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 20:04

Well that was short and sweet for the Indian GP. Bring on Russia, let's see what they can do.

Apparently what they cannot do is apply to the FIA for a 2014 race before the deadline.

#96 g1n

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 20:06

Apparently what they cannot do is apply to the FIA for a 2014 race before the deadline.


Ow I've just missed this news :up: :wave:

#97 Der Pate

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:19

Apparently what they cannot do is apply to the FIA for a 2014 race before the deadline.

As long as they pay Bernie, this will be no problem...

#98 Sakae

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:26

Apparently what they cannot do is apply to the FIA for a 2014 race before the deadline.

Meaning?

#99 Amphicar

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 20:13

Meaning?

There is a dispute between the Sochi Grand Prix organisers/promoters and the Russian Automobile Federation (RAF).

The RAF had a deadline of the end of July to submit to the FIA an official application for Russia to host a Formula 1 race next year.

The RAF refused to lodge the necessary paperwork by that date because of financial disputes between itself and the Sochi's promoters.

As others have said, this is probably not an insurmountable problem - if The RAF and the Sochi mafia can reach agreement.

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#100 Ensign

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 16:25

Well that was short and sweet for the Indian GP. Bring on Russia, let's see what they can do.


So all those F1 journalists and insiders who were saying for years how important India was were just spinning for F1? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

As for Russia I first read about a Russian GP in 2001. It was in an F1 magazine and back then they were sure it was about to happen. Like New Jersey, I'll believe it when I see it.