66 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Forgive me for such fluff within TNF but I know that many racers just like nuts and bolts. Yesterday with some friends we had a Last of
the Summer Wine day out at the Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and Submarine Museum. It would take a stony heart indeed not to appreciate
the handsome lines of what was in the mid-19th Century the most powerful and innovative warship of its day - HMS Warrior...built 1860...the first
great RN iron-hulled, armour-plated steam/sail hybrid...Gawd bless 'er.



Down in the engine room - Warrior's replicated two-cylinder steam engine, her original having been made by John Penn and Sons, was turning over when I took this shot.
The crankshaft is fully exposed, the cylinders offset to the ship's port side - the power unit's great weight is offset by a massive fresh water tank
to starboard - left in this rear-facing shot - for conversion to and condensation from steam. Indicated horsepower was 5,772 (4,304 kW) giving the ship with its single, two-bladed propeller
(which alone weighed 26 tons), a speed of 14.08 knots (26.08 km/h; 16.20 mph) under steam only.
With bunkerage for some 860 tons of fine Welsh anthracite (well, that's what the man said) she could steam 2,100 nautical miles (3,900 km; 2,400 mi) at 11 knots.
Under sail alone Warrior still managed 13 knots (24 km/h; 15 mph).



Across Portsmouth Harbour in the fabulous Submarine Museum at Gosport we had a look around the Navy's first submarine -
Holland 1.
Nestled in her aft compartment is this Brayton engine. It's in such a badly corroded state because in 1913, while under tow to
the shipbreaker,
Holland 1 foundered near the Eddystone lighthouse. The wreck was located in 1981 and raised in 1982. Now she makes a wonderfully evocative exhibit.



Here's her interior - eight men manned her in her heyday. Rather them than me. That's her single torpedo tube to the left, opening to the sea through the bow.



Spool forward a few decades and in 1944 four men manned this X-craft midget submarine - X24 - to attack a strategically important floating dock in Bergen harbour, Norway.
The attack succeeded in sinking a 7,000-ton freighter named the Barenfels instead. One of my neighbours was a veteran of the midget submarine service, a
pioneering instructor 1942-45. He passed away last week. There, friends, was one of a different Few - heroes seldom recognised and appreciated...



This is the Gardner 4-cyl diesel engine of X24 - for use when submerged she was also equipped with a 30hp Blackman electric motor. Crewmen had to be compact,
none too sensitive to heat, noise, movement and danger, but also immune to claustrophobia.



Fore-end of a full-size Das Boot - HMS Alliance, the 1945-launched A-class boat at Gosport. This large torpedo storage compartment
also doubled as convenient accommodation for embarked special service troops, frogmen, agents etc when such boats were deployed - as they
often were - on cloak and dagger survey, assault and raiding duties.
The for'ard torpedo tubes are visible through the twin water-tight doors.



Control room centre-ship beneath the conning tower in its 1970s streamlined fin up there way above our heads. Periscope to the left,
bewildering tank-blowing/flooding controls, well, everywhere.



As above - a triumph of wartime Naval ergonomic design - hem, hem...



Engine room - Alliance is powered by two 2,150 hp supercharged Vickers 8-cylinder diesels for surface use or when running underwater
with the snort air intake mast raised, while for deeper running below Snort range she relied upon two 625 hp electric motors. With two shafts
and propellers she could make just over 18kts surfaced, or 8kts submerged. Range was to my mind amazing - 10,500 nautical miles (19,400 km)
at 11 knots (20 km/h) surfaced.



Driving position with a difference. Those black curved beams immediately ahead are the enormous 2150hp engine's exposed rocker-arms. Imagine them all
rocking away at the power unit's 450rpm cruising speed. Ear defenders over ear plugs over terminal stone deafness, de rigeur...all amid fantastic
temperatures and the all pervasive pong of diesel and hot metal, and sweat. With fresh water conservation critical on board, HM S/M Alliance had no showers
for the crew of around 70. The Silent Service deployed tolerant people.



After end and the sting in her tail - two more torpedo tubes. She carried 21-inch diameter torpedos, mainly in service the age-old RN Mark VIIIs
I believe which were good for a range of 7,000 yards (6,400 m) at 41 knots, conveying an 805 lb (365 kg) Torpex-packed warhead to its target. Oh my...fascinating
to see, knowing that - for us as mere visitors - the luxury of the sunlit outdoors and great lungfuls of fresh air were always mere seconds away.

All photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

Edited by Doug Nye, 28 July 2013 - 15:53.

[Ray Bell]

Technologically interesting, Doug...

But terrible coffins!

[BT 35-8]

Doug,

Thank you for posting these pictures of things truly fascinating to a non nautical type person.

Bryan Miller.

[Hamish Robson]

Fascinating stuff, thanks Doug!

[Bloggsworth]

Makes me feel uneasy just looking at the pictures, I doubt I would have lasted 10 minutes before suffering a panic attack. Great pictures.

[RCH]

Blimey, what a plumber's nightmare! Having spent more than 20 years selling such things I just want to get in and "organise" those valves, regulators, gauges etc!

[Tony Matthews]

I'll hold your coat Rod.

[Dipster]

Forgive me for such fluff within TNF but I know that many racers just like nuts and bolts. Yesterday with some friends we had a Last of
the Summer Wine day out at the Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and Submarine Museum. It would take a stony heart indeed not to appreciate
the handsome lines of what was in the mid-19th Century the most powerful and innovative warship of its day - HMS Warrior...built 1860...the first
great RN iron-hulled, armour-plated steam/sail hybrid...Gawd bless 'er.



Down in the engine room - Warrior's replicated two-cylinder steam engine, her original having been made by John Penn and Sons, was turning over when I took this shot.
The crankshaft is fully exposed, the cylinders offset to the ship's port side - the power unit's great weight is offset by a massive fresh water tank
to starboard - left in this rear-facing shot - for conversion to and condensation from steam. Indicated horsepower was 5,772 (4,304 kW) giving the ship with its single, two-bladed propeller
(which alone weighed 26 tons), a speed of 14.08 knots (26.08 km/h; 16.20 mph) under steam only.
With bunkerage for some 860 tons of fine Welsh anthracite (well, that's what the man said) she could steam 2,100 nautical miles (3,900 km; 2,400 mi) at 11 knots.
Under sail alone Warrior still manages 13 knots (24 km/h; 15 mph).

I have confess a Gardner diesel is, to me, a thing of beauty. They seem to last forever. Used all over the world powering so many things. Wonderful engineerig. And British.



Across Portsmouth Harbour in the fabulous Submarine Museum at Gosport we had a look around the Navy's first submarine -
Holland 1.
Nestled in her aft compartment is this Brayton engine. It's in such a badly corroded state because in 1913, while under tow to the shipbreaker,
Holland 1 foundered near the Eddystone lighthouse. The wreck was located in 1981 and raised in 1982. Now she makes a wonderfully evocative exhibit.



Here's her interior - eight man manned her in her heyday. Rather them than me. That's her single torpedo tube to the left, opening to the sea through the bow.



Spool forward a few decades and in 1944 four men manned this X-craft midget submarine - X24 - to attack a strategically important floating dock in Bergen harbour, Norway.
The attack succeeded in sinking a 7,000-ton freighter named the Barenfels instead. One of my neighbours was a veteran of the midget submarine service, a
pioneering instructor 1942-45. He passed away last week. There, friends, was one of a different Few - heroes seldom recognised and appreciated...



This is the Gardner 4-cyl diesel engine of X24 - for use when submerged she was also equipped with a 30hp Blackman electric motor. Crewmen had to be compact,
none too sensitive to heat, noise, movement and danger, but also immune to claustrophobia.



Fore-end of a full-size Das Boot - HMS Alliance, the 1945-launched A-class boat at Gosport. This large torpedo storage compartment
also doubled as convenient accommodation for embarked special service troops, frogmen, agents etc when such boats were deployed - as they
often were - on cloak and dagger survey, assault and raiding duties.
The for'ard torpedo tubes are visible through the twin water-tight doors.



Control room centre-ship beneath the conning tower in its 1970s streamlined fin up there way above our heads. Periscope to the left,
bewildering tank-blowing/flooding controls, well, everywhere.



As above - a triumph of wartime Naval ergonomic design - hem, hem...



Engine room - Alliance is powered by two 2,150 hp supercharged Vickers 8-cylinder diesels for surface use or when running underwater
with the snort air intake mast raised, while for deeper running below Snort range she relied upon two 625 hp electric motors. With two shafts
and propellers she could make just over 18kts surfaced, or 8kts submerged. Range was to my mind amazing - 10,500 nautical miles (19,400 km)
at 11 knots (20 km/h) surfaced.



Driving position with a difference. Those black curved beams immediately ahead are the enormous 2150hp engine's exposed rocker-arms. Imagine them all
rocking away at the power unit's 450rpm cruising speed. Ear defenders over ear plugs over terminal stone deafness, de rigeur...all amid fantastic
temperatures and the all pervasive pong of diesel and hot metal, and sweat. With fresh water conservation critical on board, HM S/M Alliance had no showers
for the crew of around 70. The Silent Service deployed tolerant people.



After end and the sting in her tail - two more torpedo tubes. She carried 21-inch diameter torpedos, mainly in service the age-old RN Mark VIIIs
I believe which were good for a range of 7,000 yards (6,400 m) at 41 knots, conveying an 805 lb (365 kg) Torpex-packed warhead to its target. Oh my...fascinating
to see, knowing that - for us as mere visitors - the luxury of the sunlit outdoors and great lungfuls of fresh air were always mere seconds away.

All photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

Where did my comment go?! I just wanted to add that the Gardner engine shown is one of the engineering wonders that I love. They were great engines. And British.

Edited by Dipster, 27 July 2013 - 11:33.

[Philip Whiteman]

Lovely pictures, Doug.

When I last visited HMS Warrior, my eye was caught be all the beautiful Navy Colt pistols mounted on the capstans. The engineering connection is that Colt's revolvers were the first to be mass produced on precision machinery, making the components interchangeable. In an interesting parallel with the way stuff we supply today to the United States has to be 'made in America' (e.g. the Harrier, which became a McDonnell Douglas product) Colt set up a London factory to fulfill British orders.

[jimclark]

"but I know that many racers just like nuts and bolts." Absolutely...at least in my case.

Thank you. Good stuff...

[RCH]

Lovely pictures, Doug.

When I last visited HMS Warrior, my eye was caught be all the beautiful Navy Colt pistols mounted on the capstans. The engineering connection is that Colt's revolvers were the first to be mass produced on precision machinery, making the components interchangeable. In an interesting parallel with the way stuff we supply today to the United States has to be 'made in America' (e.g. the Harrier, which became a McDonnell Douglas product) Colt set up a London factory to fulfill British orders.

It's 20 or more years now since I was last involved in such things but it was amazing how the "not invented here" syndrome pervaded thinking in industries where there was government involvement. We imported a range of US manufactured fittings and valves, at the time, and maybe still today the best designed and manufactured in the world. Yet they were not acceptable to the Royal Navy, they were not allowed to fly, they were not acceptable to the Central Electricity Generating Board all because they were of a design type which in the late '40's early '50's was considered unreliable. Rolls Royce had an order from Aramco for RB2-11-24 engines, generators for offshore oil platforms. Our products were specified much to the horror of the "high ups", the engineers were delighted they had wanted to use us for years! All their test rigs used our products because of their "known" reliability but we weren't reliable enough to keep an aeroplane in the air. Same with CEGB, in practice they were used everywhere but it took years of slogging on our part to make that official.

[alansart]

Forgive me for such fluff within TNF but I know that many racers just like nuts and bolts. Yesterday with some friends we had a Last of
the Summer Wine day out at the Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and Submarine Museum. It would take a stony heart indeed not to appreciate
the handsome lines of what was in the mid-19th Century the most powerful and innovative warship of its day - HMS Warrior...built 1860...the first
great RN iron-hulled, armour-plated steam/sail hybrid...Gawd bless 'er.

Nice one Doug.

I'm in Portsmouth in a few weeks time. If the Ferry is delayed, I know where I'm going!

[Sogster]

Great post.

Love the pics of the engine room for the warrior.

Through work I am currently involved in manufacturing and supplying a set of piston rings for a similar engine of around the same vintage (historically the company I work for supplied the piston rings to the Titanic). It is a fantastic and unique opportunity not usually available in my everyday role of supplying piston rings for large 2 and 4 stroke marine diesels.
Indeed it's not everyday my required reading is books published in 1860 - 1870 and very much considered the cutting edge of theory and practice (for their time) regarding the application of steam power.

The vessel we are supplying requires both the 'junk' rings and the main piston rings for both high (approx 24" dia) and low pressure cylinders (approx 47" dia) which incredible to think for the age of the engine are conformable. The springs of these rings are made from a profile termed 'bucket' steel, so called because it has the shape of a bucket laid on its side and has to be hand made by a blacksmith with the rings being made of a top and bottom section which under pressure from the piston crown compresses the spring assembly to exert an outward force on the wall of the cylinder.

I have learned that in engines of this nature, as well as horizontally opposed engines this also allows for the rings to wear evenly as long as they are rotated manually periodically in the cylinder. Once bedded in the rings will not rotate of their own accord due to the weight of the piston crown forcing them to wear in an oval manner.


Apologies if this sounds like an advert for my companies services (especially considering my low post count), this is not the case. I just wished to share a small part of my recent experiences with this type of engine.

[Nick Planas]

Than you for posting these Doug. I'm planning to visit one of my student friends in Portsmouth one weekend in the autumn and we are hoping to do the Dockyard & Museum so it's a great preview.

Seeing the sheer size of some of these engines reminds me of a great uncle of mine, who started out as an apprentice on the Great Western Railway, finished his apprenticeship, left the GWR and became a naval engineer instead! (I suppose this could be said to be following in Brunel's shadow?) When he died he left us what was left of his collection of tools - bloody HUGE socket wrenches, everything about 20 times bigger than yer usual car maintenance stuff - spanners, sockets, and some other weird things that looked suspiciously like a giant's dental kit. My father (also an engineer before becoming a professional musician and woodwind designer / technician) couldn't bring himself to get rid of them so they took up pride of place in the most awkward recesses of my parents' bungalow. When they passed away my brother and I, wishing to remain on speaking terms with our good lady wives, donated them to a GWR preservation society somewhere or other, via a friend.

I suspect that manning Holland I was probably rather an exciting adventure for the first submariners - perhaps young enough not to be too aware of the dangers and not too worried about close confinement with the other poor sods. Can't wait to go there now.

[Doug Nye]

Here's an exterior view of HM S/M Alliance resting in her newly refurbished dry berth at Gosport. Several million Pounds have just been
invested in her future, one of the most simple measures being wire mesh inserted into all the perforations visible here, to prevent pigeons using
her as a gigantic nest box. The corrosive effects of tons of pigeon droppings accumulated over her years here were appalling. At Heathrow BA's
surviving Concorde was suffering similarly - though in her case largely from rodent infestation - until chicken wire was applied to its various entry ports...
Conservation in the open air is a perilous process...



Here's the wonderful X24 midget submarine, snug, warm, dry and cossetted within the Submarine Museum.



Further top-end detail of one of Alliance's diesel engines. Anyone got a feeler gauge?



One cylinder barrel had been removed from one of her engines...bit of a bore....



Smooth bore - one of the fabulously well-presented Mary Rose exhibits in King Henry VIII's flagship's museum within the Historic Dockyard.
She had been in service for 34 years when catastrophe struck as the Battle of the Solent developed in 1545. The thousands of artefacts recovered
from the wreck site since most of the ship's surviving fabric was salvaged in 1982 are just mind-boggling. I can't recommend the new Museum to
claustrophobics, but for anyone not so afflicted it's just superb. Each item seen here has survived more than 430 years underwater...



Cast cannon represented frontier technology in Tudor times. Love those lion heads...



The surviving half-hull of Mary Rose can be viewed through windows in the controlled-atmosphere cell enclosing her. The water sprays which have
shrouded the view for decades have now been switched off and the perforated trunkings seen here blow drying air over her timbers. Wax will eventually
prevent her fabric's individual cells from collapsing, and once the process is complete she should be conserved for centuries to
come.



Also in refit - the Royal Navy's and the world's oldest commissioned warship - HMS Victory - somewhat truncated with her topmasts and all spars
presently struck, safe in dry dock No 2 (the world's oldest still in use) that she has occupied since 1922. In Farnham, in the same cemetery as Mike
Hawthorn, there's the war grave for a rating killed upon HMS Victory in 1941, I would assume during the Luftwaffe air raid on Portsmouth in which a
bomb hit the dock, did minor damage to the old ship and killed I think at least two luckless sailors there.



Current conservation work on her port-bow has exposed these timbers... Quite how much of Victory's in-service Trafalgar fabric survives today
seems to be a subject not widely discussed...



Gundeck - a huge proportion of Victory's 820 crew served these batteries - she was rated as carrying 104 guns. Laid down in 1759, launched in 1765, she
served as Lord Nelson's flagship at the Battle of Trafalgar, 1805 - as Keppel's flagship at Ushant, Howe's at Cape Spartel and Jervis's at Cape St Vincent.
How much more provenance could a bidder require?



It was upon this hallowed spot - on Victory's orlop deck - that tradition maintains Lord Nelson breathed his last - around 4.30pm, Battle of Trafalgar, October 21, 1805, some
three hours after being hit by a musket shot fired from the upperworks of the French Redoutable while on deck wearing his eye-catching full decorations. Some evidence suggests he was actually
being tended further forward in the ship...but still on the orlop which is just below the waterline within that great hull. Whatever the truth might be, this place still makes the short
hairs on the back of one's neck bristle...

All Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 28 July 2013 - 11:36.

[GMACKIE]

One cylinder barrel had been removed from one of her engines...bit of a bore....

DCN

I like the way you honed in on that....

[John Ginger]

Piston broke?


Wonderful shots, thank-you for sharing

[275 GTB-4]

Lovely pictures, Doug.

When I last visited HMS Warrior, my eye was caught be all the beautiful Navy Colt pistols mounted on the capstans. The engineering connection is that Colt's revolvers were the first to be mass produced on precision machinery, making the components interchangeable. In an interesting parallel with the way stuff we supply today to the United States has to be 'made in America' (e.g. the Harrier, which became a McDonnell Douglas product) Colt set up a London factory to fulfill British orders.

from Micks Grand Tour 2008...

[275 GTB-4]

Blimey, what a plumber's nightmare! Having spent more than 20 years selling such things I just want to get in and "organise" those valves, regulators, gauges etc!

..

I worked on gazundas for quite a few years...the most annoying thing about the myriad of valves onboard is how they jump out at you and draw blood or stop you "dead" in your tracks and make you see stars

[kayemod]

Alliance appears to be resting on giant pieces of Lego.

For anyone interested in what life was really like for submariners back then, in fact even earlier during WW1, I strongly recommend a book A Sailor of Austria by John Biggins. This semi-novel describes what it was like to crew a small early submarine in the Austro-Hungarian Navy in the Mediterranean during WW1, it's well-written and seems to be properly researched, I enjoyed it enormously.

[Tony Matthews]

I like the way you honed in on that....

You ran rings round him there, Greg!

[Odseybod]

You ran rings round him there, Greg!

I'm resisting the temptation to get invalved.

[E1pix]

I need more photos to get my bearings.

(Edit: sorry Doug, great thread and pics!)

Edited by E1pix, 29 July 2013 - 18:08.

[kayemod]

Quite how much of Victory's in-service Trafalgar fabric survives today
seems to be a subject not widely discussed...

And on that point, I suspect it's not widely known that every single one of the big guns on Victory are relatively modern fibreglass replicas. There are quite a lot of them, and poor old dear couldn't support the weight of the real things. On that "Not widely discussed" bit, you'll find that the guides quickly change the subject if anyone starts trying to question the provenance of exactly what they're looking at, it's a very worthwhile tour all the same, but a bit of a trial for tall people, short-arses probably enjoy it rather more.

[doc knutsen]

Here's the wonderful X24 midget submarine, snug, warm, dry and cossetted within the Submarine Museum.




All Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

The midget submarines carried out some extremely brave missions, for which I feel proper credit was never really given. A group of them attacked the mighty Tirpitz, sitting behind torpedo nets deep in a Norwegian fjord, close to the polar city of Tromso. Working from memory, I seem to remember that only one managed to attach her explosives to the hull of the battleship, and its crew was captured by the Germans when they were forced to surface. These brave young men were being interrogated aboard the Tirpitz when the exlosives went off, apparently lifting that giant hull clear out of the water (the fjord was very shallow where the Tirpitz was anchored, in order to resist any conventional submarine attacks) The ship suffered considerable damage, and was still being repaired several months later. Of course, Bomber Command and the Lancs finally took care of the Tirpitz, but she was immobilized for a considerable time by the midget sub attack.

If I remember correctly, two other midget subs were lost in the fjord, with one of the crews not even being given posthumous credits - because it was never proved that they actually reached the Tirpitz and got to place their explosives as intended. Despite several attempts, the wreckage was never located with certainty. What is certain, is that they all perished in the icy waters of the Norwegian fjord.

A midget sub is on show in one of the hangars at Duxford, and she is sliced in two to allow a look into her crew area. Of all the WW2 machinery, sea, land or air based that I have seen, that is probably the most chilling of all. To imagine what kind of bravery it would take to man one of those still gives me goosebumps.

[Doug Nye]

Operation 'Source' covered the Tirpitz attack mentioned by Doc. For more detail you could do far worse than start here:

http://www.bismarck-...opersource.html

In the Fleet Air Arm's attacks on the ship, presciently named Operations 'Goodwood', I, II and III - I believe (without checking his autobiography) that future Formula 1 team patron Rob Walker was involved, as aircrew on one of the extraordinary, waddling, Fairey Barracudas.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 29 July 2013 - 21:29.

[GMACKIE]

You ran rings round him there, Greg!

Just a stroke of luck, Tony.

[David Birchall]

Wonderful photos and captions Doug. To add a very little to the submarine photos: A friend who passed away a few years ago was the navigating officer on HMS Venturer, the only submarine to ever sink another submarine while both were submerged. My friend was Peter Brand and he had a very strong motorsport connection having been Clerk of the Course at Westwood (western Canada) in the seventies and eighties and something similar at Silverstone (?) in much earlier years.
http://en.wikipedia....submarine_U-864

My father was an air gunner with Coastal Patrol and spent many hours droning around in a Catalina gazing out of the side gun blister at the grey Atlantic. Except for one trip! South of Iceland they spotted and in company with an armed trawler sank a Uboat with bombs and depth charges-dad never fired a shot.
http://www.uboat.net/boats/u452.htm

Edited by David Birchall, 29 July 2013 - 22:41.

[275 GTB-4]

Just a stroke of luck, Tony.

this is getting boring...

[275 GTB-4]

Something not widely known about HMS Warrior is that she had accommodation for Australians onboard



More pistola for Mr Whiteman

[Tony Matthews]

this is getting boring...

Yes - so boring it should be piston.

[GMACKIE]

Yes - so boring it should be piston.

Careful....you'll have Mick going off in high gudgeon.

[Doug Nye]

Listen - if this continues I'll be popping pills for compression...

DCN

[kayemod]

Listen - if this continues I'll be popping pills for compression...

DCN

I suspect Oscar would be getting a bit cynical about all this, "The price of everything, the valve of nothing..."

[275 GTB-4]

Careful....you'll have Mick going off in high gudgeon.

The gudgeon might be highly prized, but give me sardines any day of the week...and Kippers! what the hell do the English see in them! Better not go on...liable to make them cranky!

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 30 July 2013 - 11:13.

[D-Type]

Are we talking about gudgeon puns or about fish!

[GMACKIE]

Oh, you're from New Zealand.

[Odseybod]

Just to add a (non-punny) footnote to Doug's interesting post, the Chatham Naval Dockyards museum has one of the last diesel-powered submarines on display, HMS Ocelot. As she hasn't been hacked about internally, they've put a dummy hatchway on the quayside, so that those of us of more generous proportions can check our ability to negotiate them, rather than becoming a permanent on-board exhibiit (one can also ponder how in moments of duress, experienced submariners could pass each other travelling in opposite directions through these hatchways).

We were lucky enough to be shown around by a former crewman on these boats, who naturally gave us some fascinating insights about their operation. Duration of a voyage tended to be dictated by the amount of fresh water carried (no de-salination plant), whcih was limited to (from memory) one pint per person per day - obviously the sequence in which it was used had to be carefully planned. Despite being over 40 years old when she went on display, Ocelot's twin noise-limiting propellers were still on the classified list and had to be covered up and later removed,to be replaced by dummies (not sure what she's wearing now - this was 5 years or so ago).

I hadn't realised how little I knew about the torpredo - for example, that they (or at least Ocelot's) have their own little diesel engine for propulsion, with duration/range limited by the amount of compressed air they carry for combustion. I'd somehow assumed from the torpedo noises in films that they were electrically powered, but maybe the necessary batteries would be too heavy (I assume diesel is/was used for them, becuase of the less volatile fuel stored in each one?). Also that a torpedo is carefully designed to be equal in weight to the equivalent volume of sea water so that once fired, the briney rushes in to take its place in a tube, without upsetting the trim of the boat. Clever stuff.

Of course, the technology has progressed by leaps and bounds since Ocelot was commissioned in 1962, with much more space and comfort on board - but it must still take a special sort of person to serve on them. Not for me, I have to say.

[Tony Matthews]

Listen - if this continues I'll be popping pills for compression...

DCN

That's a nasty wound! Do you want some compression, Horatio?

[275 GTB-4]

Thank you Tony....Chatham Naval Dockyards is now on my bucket list for my next sojourn to the UK

As for potable water onboard, you can also hydrate yourself with bottled or canned fluids

[275 GTB-4]

That's a nasty wound! Do you want some compression, Horatio?

This one's split! get me another cabin boy!

[kayemod]

That's a nasty wound! Do you want some compression, Horatio?

"I don't think anyone's looking, quick, give us a kiss!"

[D-Type]

Did anyone else visit the Russian submarine that was doing the rounds of our ports? It was moored near Woolwich, then later at Folkestone and on the Medway - I don't know where it is now or if it's still open to the public.
It was fascinating - a crew of 75 or so who had to share bunks or use torpedo racks, some officers had ³/₄ length bunks, and curiously torpedos marked in English (or was it simply Latin script?) rather than in Russian and Cyrillic script.

[Tony Matthews]

I heard that a hapless submariner was accidentally fired out of a torpedo tube whilst asleep, and a torpedo had to take over his watch. Fortunately there was just enough headroom under the conning tower.

[doc knutsen]

Operation 'Source' covered the Tirpitz attack mentioned by Doc. For more detail you could do far worse than start here:

http://www.bismarck-...opersource.html

In the Fleet Air Arm's attacks on the ship, presciently named Operations 'Goodwood', I, II and III - I believe (without checking his autobiography) that future Formula 1 team patron Rob Walker was involved, as aircrew on one of the extraordinary, waddling, Fairey Barracudas.

DCN

Thank you, much appreciated. I read a book in Norwegian several years ago, dealing with operation Source. Incidentally, the author also wrote a book on the demise of the Scharnhorst. The Tirpitz remained in Kaafjord for quite some time, being dismantled one piece at a time after WW2 ended.
Today, there is but a small plaque at the site to remind the present generation of the struggles that the Tirpitz generated. In fact, this seems to be largely forgotten, much like the battle in Joessing fjord, where captured British sailors were liberated by the destroyer Cossack, from the German ship Altmark, just prior to the Nazi attack on Norway and Denmark on April 9th, 1940.

[Doug Nye]

The Tirpitz remained in Kaafjord for quite some time, being dismantled one piece at a time after WW2 ended.

Err, she was capsized and scrapped in situ in Tromsofjord, Doc? One hundred miles from Kaafjord...?

DCN

[doc knutsen]

Err, she was capsized and scrapped in situ in Tromsofjord, Doc? One hundred miles from Kaafjord...?

DCN

Sorry about getting my fjords mixed up. Norway is a very long country, if you pivot the country at the capital (Oslo) and turn the whole country south, the Tromso region would be well into Switzerland...

After operation Source, the Germans built a huge concrete wall around the battleship, and evacuated the water, in order to facilitate repairs to the hull. The hull had suffered an 18 metre long crack in the port side, and repairs took a long time. According to the museum in Kaafjord, the Tirpitz was fit for service in April 1944,and sailed from Kaafjord - after which operation Tungsten was started - said to be the biggest ever Navy operation in the Barents sea. As a result, the Tirpitz again suffered major damage, including 122 killed and 316 injured, and she had to undergo another three months of repair. She was now anchored in Altajord, and other operations, such as Mascot, were cancelled because of smoke screens hiding the battleship before the aircraft could get to her. Subsequently , operations Goodwood 1,2 and 3 met with only limited success, but the Germans were very lucky: One bomb managed to penetrate the armour of the Tirpitz and ended up in one of the electrical generator rooms, but it failed to explode - the Kriegsmarine reported that the bomb would have sunk the ship, had the detonation taken place.
So, with the Navy retiring, the job was left to the RAF with assistance from the Russkis: Operations Paravane, Obviate and Catechism. The Tirpitz had now moved to the Haakoy region in the Tromso fjord. And this is where the final battle, Catechism, took place, with the battleship suffering two direct hits by Tallboys. The battleship capsized, trapping over 900 of its crew of 1700.

Incidentally, the Tirpitz hulk was sold by the Norwegian government to the company Einar Hovding for the princely sum of £ 6000,- in 1949 money. Scrapping the monster ship took them from 1949 until 1957.

[D-Type]

Interesting! I only knew about the 'glamorous' attacks: Operation Source (the X Class submarines) and Operation Catechism (617 Squadron and the 'Tallboy' bombs). I didn't know about any of the others, in particular Operation Tungsten.

[raceannouncer2003]

On our way to the Portland (Oregon) Historics last month, Martin Rudow and I had coffee with John Baker in Port Townsend, Washington. Baker, age 89, raced a Formcar Formula Vee in the 60s and 70s. In WWII, he was on a submarine as part of an American "Wolf Pack". I think he said he was on the Cero. Another friend, former Corvette racer Dean Geddes, was on the Missouri when the Japanese surrendered in Tokyo harbor. However, Baker said that, since his sub had sunk probably the last two Japanese ships before the surrender, they were told to head back home !



Me, Martin, and John

Vince H.

[DogEarred]

That's a nasty wound! Do you want some compression, Horatio?

...and careful you don't have a stroke.