370 replies to this topic

[Skinnyguy]

Massa took the space Grosjean left him. If Grosjean made the line tighter Massa could have evaded. Instead, Grosjean chooses to go offtrack and thus helping Massa to a faster line out of the corner.

Like I said. I find it very hard to believe that a guy (woman?) like Grosjean suddenly knows where the Ferrari is. He could not have seen it in his mirrors.

Nope. When Romain straightens the steering wheel there´s no such a thing as a space between them. Romain lets the car go wide to avoid Massa comming into his sidepod.

On the second part, you better believe it -instead of trusting silly generalizations- because the onboard shots show him straightening the wheel only when a red front wing comes closer and closer and closer as they exit the corner.

[Skinnyguy]

Lap 19 was one of them

Post 333. Already gave my opinion on that one.

[eREr]

Watched it. Non-issue for me. Romain is fully behind him everytime as they go into T4. If they went in there side by side, and Vettel managed to keep the place by going off, then it would be something to look at.

He went wide in T4 in laps 18 and 19 by inches, and also he had a bigger off in T3 in lap 19. His exit speed looks quite poor every time he did it, so much that in lap 19 his mistake in T3 is what allows Romain to attack into T4. I wouldn´t say he gained any advantage, he put himself under pressure everytime he went off. I´d even say he was driving poorly under pressure, using too much turf and slowing himself down.

It doesn't matter if the other car is behind or beside. The main thing is why it left the track. Vettel simply carried too much speed to that corner several times when he was defending and as a result he clearly left the track (by a larger margin than RG). How can you state that vettel didn't gain anything in that corner? This is not acceptable for me when RG was punished for the same thing. Punish both of them or none of them.

Edited by eREr, 01 August 2013 - 11:51.

[MikeTekRacing]

as far as I can see there was at all times room for Grosjean to Massa's right.

room for 1 car?

[brr]

The main thing is why it left the track.

Not according to the rules.

[redreni]

Not according to the rules.

The rules do talk about why a driver leaves the track because you can be penalised for intentionally leaving the track without "justificable reason" whether or not any advantage is gained. Moreover the rules also specify that you shouldn't gain an advantage when rejoining the track after going off, and in my view common sense tells you that the way you judge the question of advantage will be different in a case where a car was forced off the track than it would be in a case where it's the driver's own fault he went off because he did it through choice or accidentally, so again the reason for going off is relevant.

E.g. when Alonso cut the Nouvelle chicane at Monaco in avoidance of one of Perez's trademark divebombs - it was Alonso's line but he was forced off the track to avoid certain contact - so in my view you have to judge whether, having gone off and rejoined, Alonso was better off than if he had been able to take his normal line.

Why do I assume that Alonso's decision to go off track was forced on him as the only way to avoid contact, while maintaining that Grosjean had a choice? Because (a) Grosjean chose to put himslef in a difficult position by overtaking around the outside and (b) Massa was not committed to a line that would have inevitably resulted in contact had Grosjean stayed on track. But Perez was absolutely committed to a line through the first part of the Nouvelle chicane that left no room for another car - he had the anchors slammed on and he couldn't possibly have slowed down enough to miss Alonso if Alonso had turned in.

[SenorSjon]

Nope. When Romain straightens the steering wheel there´s no such a thing as a space between them. Romain lets the car go wide to avoid Massa comming into his sidepod.

On the second part, you better believe it -instead of trusting silly generalizations- because the onboard shots show him straightening the wheel only when a red front wing comes closer and closer and closer as they exit the corner.

I viewed it a few times.
1) the steering correction from Grosjean is only marginal. To be expected when you hit a kerbstone/artifical grass. In the prelude to the corner you see the same kind of corrections to the steering.
2) if Grosjean was still side by side with Massa, they would have collided at the apex of the corner. I hardly see a cars width there left by him.
3) I doubt Grosjean could have seen the Ferrari from the cockpit with his sidewalls. You hardly have any vision but straight forward.
4) Grosjean straightens the car out outside the track so he could apply more throttle earlier to sprint to the next corner while Massa was still straightening the car.

[Skinnyguy]

I viewed it a few times.
1) the steering correction from Grosjean is only marginal. To be expected when you hit a kerbstone/artifical grass. In the prelude to the corner you see the same kind of corrections to the steering.
2) if Grosjean was still side by side with Massa, they would have collided at the apex of the corner. I hardly see a cars width there left by him.
3) I doubt Grosjean could have seen the Ferrari from the cockpit with his sidewalls. You hardly have any vision but straight forward.
4) Grosjean straightens the car out outside the track so he could apply more throttle earlier to sprint to the next corner while Massa was still straightening the car.

1) Marginal corrections at high speed take you quite far from where you wanted to go. Also the correction is done WELL INSIDE the track, it´s not a reaction to the enter in the curb/turf. That correction made the difference between in and out.

2) ??? At the apex they WERE side by side and there´s a nice gap between them.

3) He jumped out of the way exactly when it was needed, of course he saw him comming. Mirrors are there for a reason.

4) Grosjean could use less throttle on the turf than he would have been able to use on the track/curb even with a tighter line. And as a bonus, Massa´s line would be even tighter too (if only he could hold his line...). There was no benefit running wide in that situation, he didn´t go there on purpose. He was forced to go there to avoid contact.

[Skinnyguy]

It doesn't matter if the other car is behind or beside. The main thing is why it left the track. Vettel simply carried too much speed to that corner several times when he was defending and as a result he clearly left the track (by a larger margin than RG). How can you state that vettel didn't gain anything in that corner? This is not acceptable for me when RG was punished for the same thing. Punish both of them or none of them.

Yes it does matter: retaining a position by going off is punished, simply going off is not.

How can I state that he didn´t gain anything?
1) When he goes wide and the guy behind doesn´t (and has room to keep going) he loses ground to him.
2) Cars always try to avoid the turf exiting T4 and only end up there after a mistake. They don´t maximize the ammount of car over the line on every normal lap, they try to keep it their loaded outside wheels inside the curb.

You can´t punish someone because he went off by driving too fast losing time in the process. You might as well plant mines outside the lines if you´re going to do that.

[redreni]

Yes it does matter: retaining a position by going off is punished, simply going off is not.

How can I state that he didn´t gain anything?
1) When he goes wide and the guy behind doesn´t (and has room to keep going) he loses ground to him.
2) Cars always try to avoid the turf exiting T4 and only end up there after a mistake. They don´t maximize the ammount of car over the line on every normal lap, they try to keep it their loaded outside wheels inside the curb.

You can´t punish someone because he went off by driving too fast losing time in the process. You might as well plant mines outside the lines if you´re going to do that.

That he loses ground against Grosjean is not the decisive factor. It's whether he gains an advantage. From watching the world feed, it seemed for large parts of the race that every time the cameras were on him, he was running all four wheels off the circuit. I can't help feeling he did it way too many times for it to be a mistake. As a one-off incident I don't think it should be penalised, but I don't think drivers systematically exceeding the track limits ought to be allowed. F1 should have judges of fact at the corners so that the Race Director's minions can keep track of how many times people are exceeding the track limits and those who do it repeatedly can be warned then, if they persist, penalised. As ever, consistency's the key, but you can't just let it go. The regulations wouldn't need to change because intentionally leaving the track without justifiable reason is already banned, so it's not unreasonable for the stewards to say that, if you go off four times, on the fourth and any subsequent occasions, it's considered to be intentional.

[eREr]

Yes it does matter: retaining a position by going off is punished, simply going off is not.

How can I state that he didn´t gain anything?
1) When he goes wide and the guy behind doesn´t (and has room to keep going) he loses ground to him.
2) Cars always try to avoid the turf exiting T4 and only end up there after a mistake. They don´t maximize the ammount of car over the line on every normal lap, they try to keep it their loaded outside wheels inside the curb.

You can´t punish someone because he went off by driving too fast losing time in the process. You might as well plant mines outside the lines if you´re going to do that.

If it happens once, then you are right. But when it happens lap after lap, then it's a problem and it should be punished. He carried more speed to that turn and gains time via this. He might loose bit of it at the exit, and maybe loose all of it or even loosing time in general in that turn by going wide, but this way he could protect himself against the attacking of RG in T4. So advantage is gained via blocking a potential overtaking maneuver, that's for sure.

Vettel did these when RG was right on his tail, but he could take T4 within the limits of the track when his position was safe and RG was outside of the "danger" zone.

[Skinnyguy]

If it happens once, then you are right. But when it happens lap after lap, then it's a problem and it should be punished. He carried more speed to that turn and gains time via this. He might loose bit of it at the exit, and maybe loose all of it or even loosing time in general in that turn by going wide, but this way he could protect himself against the attacking of RG in T4. So advantage is gained via blocking a potential overtaking maneuver, that's for sure.

Vettel did these when RG was right on his tail, but he could take T4 within the limits of the track when his position was safe and RG was outside of the "danger" zone.

You have a point, but sadly there are a good handful of corners in the calendar (like penultimum corner in Abu Dhabi) where it´s faster to go wide than to stay within the lines, and drivers go wide lap after lap (both in qualifying and race) there without consequences. So I think that if you´re making a "it should be like this" observation, then you have a point.

On the other hand, if you´re talking about stewards letting go something that is normally punished, that´s it, if you´re asking for a penalty for repeatedly going off the track limits by inches -and losing time in the proccess- then that is cynical to say the least in this context. That´s the nature of turf: if you go off you´ll lose a tenth or two instead of a second like before.

One more thing:

The regulations wouldn't need to change because intentionally leaving the track without justifiable reason is already banned, so it's not unreasonable for the stewards to say that, if you go off four times, on the fourth and any subsequent occasions, it's considered to be intentional.

Yes, the regulations would need to change to punish this. Because you´re only punished by gaining an advantage leaving the track. To get the scenario you´d like, it should be enough by going off -gaining or losing time- too many times. And in my view, that´s nonsense, as much as planting mines outside track limits.

I´m all for grass outside tracks and mistakes being punished, but now we have turf and rules are what they are. You only get heat if you gain an advantage. And it´s so monitored than a Vettel pole in Hungary was jeopardized because of going wide into last corner, that arrived to the stewards who deemed that after looking telemtery it became apparent he had lost time overall there.

That´s how the game goes now, it´s OK if you don´t like it, but let´s not act as if the game was another and someone got away with it.

[Skinnyguy]

Vettel did these when RG was right on his tail, but he could take T4 within the limits of the track when his position was safe and RG was outside of the "danger" zone.

A driver fully behind, no matter how close, on the entry of turn 4, with you on the normal entry line, is well inside the safe zone unless you go off by yourself during the corner mate. No other way you´ll get passed. And that´s what Seb did, going off and putting a bit more pressure on himself for the next section. No way you can say he retained a place, or made easier for himself to retain a place going off there.

If Grosjean was in any danger of passing him (and you need to be well alongside going in there to stand a chance) then Vettel going off would no doubt be considered retaining a position by going off. But it isn´t the case.

[redreni]

Yes, the regulations would need to change to punish this. Because you´re only punished by gaining an advantage leaving the track. To get the scenario you´d like, it should be enough by going off -gaining or losing time- too many times. And in my view, that´s nonsense, as much as planting mines outside track limits.

The sporting regulations prohibit intentionally leaving the track without justifiable reason, it's as simple as that.

Article 20.2 SR states "A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track. Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason."

Currently the stewards only penalise drivers if they are considered to have gained an advantage from leaving the track, not for leaving the track per se. That doesn't mean they can't penalise people for intentionally leaving the track without justifiable reason even when no advantage is gained.

I don't think it would be an unreasonable interpretation of the rules as written to say "you have left the circuit [N] times without justifiable reason, in our judgement a driver who is good enough to get a superlicense would not make the same mistake over and over again therefore we consider this to be intentional, therefore you're in breach of the third sentence of Article 20.2 SR and we're giving you a drive-through penalty."

Edited by redreni, 02 August 2013 - 15:42.

[SenorSjon]

In Spa it will be a problem again. I saw some footage this week from British F3 on MotorsTV, but most of the gras and gravel have left the building...

[redreni]

In Spa it will be a problem again. I saw some footage this week from British F3 on MotorsTV, but most of the gras and gravel have left the building...

In my view it would be no exageration to say the 24 Hours of Spa was marred by people systematically exceeding track limits at the top of Radillon. It‘s a crying shame to say that, too, bearing in mind what an awesome corner it was not so long ago, when you had to stay on the black stuff on painvof having an aeroplane-style accident. It‘s not flat for the GT cars, either, so it would still be an awesome corner if they‘d kept the gravel traps.

[Skinnyguy]

The sporting regulations prohibit intentionally leaving the track without justifiable reason, it's as simple as that.

Article 20.2 SR states "A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track. Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason."

No, it´s not that simple unless you read it wrong. If you go off you can rejoin the track as long as you do it safely and without gaining an advantage. So leaving the track after going wide itself is nothing bad unless you come back having gained an advantage.

"Deliberatedly leaving the track without any reason" is definetely not what happens when you make a mistake and go off. It´s what happens when you are in full control of your car and decide to drive off-track for no apparent reason.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 02 August 2013 - 23:00.

[Coops3]

No, it´s not that simple unless you read it wrong. If you go off you can rejoin the track as long as you do it safely and without gaining an advantage. So leaving the track after going wide itself is nothing bad unless you come back having gained an advantage.

"Deliberatedly leaving the track without any reason" is definetely not what happens when you make a mistake and go off. It´s what happens when you are in full control of your car and decide to drive off-track for no apparent reason.

I suppose it depends on whether going wide is considered a "justifiable reason". I think you could argue if you cock up a corner, then that's justifiable reason for going off the track, and you would get away with it provided you don't gain an advantage. That's how I interpret it anyway.

[Skinnyguy]

I suppose it depends on whether going wide is considered a "justifiable reason". I think you could argue if you cock up a corner, then that's justifiable reason for going off the track, and you would get away with it provided you don't gain an advantage. That's how I interpret it anyway.

That´s exactly how I see it.

If I have to use an example for what I think it is "a driver deliberatedly leaving the track for no justifiable reason", then I imagine a driver using the line Sebastian used to pass Grosjean in the second DRS straight before allowing him through again last year in Abu Dhabi.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 02 August 2013 - 23:08.

[redreni]

No, it´s not that simple unless you read it wrong. If you go off you can rejoin the track as long as you do it safely and without gaining an advantage. So leaving the track after going wide itself is nothing bad unless you come back having gained an advantage.

"Deliberatedly leaving the track without any reason" is definetely not what happens when you make a mistake and go off. It´s what happens when you are in full control of your car and decide to drive off-track for no apparent reason.

But I'm not suggesting mistakes should be penalised straight off, I'm saying if a driver persistently and systematically goes off, then at the very least he is not trying hard enough to stay on the track, and here's where it comes down to your interpretation of "deliberately" and "justificable reason". So say, for example, somebody brakes too late into one of the chicanes at Monza and cuts the corner - it's a mistake so by definition it's unintentional, and of course if you can't avoid going off then you can't say it was without justifiable reason. So I accept that it shouldn't be penalised unless an advantage is gained.

What I'm talking about it situations where certain drivers, but not others, continually make these "mistakes". Maybe the time loss/gain each time they go off is relatively insignificant, so it is difficult for the stewards to say for sure that an advantage has been gained. But it is an advantage to be able to approach corners leaving no margin of error, knowing that you can compensate for any slight misjudgement by exceeding the track limits without losing much, or anything. That's why I think there should be a limit to the number of "mistakes" a driver should be allowed to get away with, and I maintain that a purposeful interpretation of "deliberately" exceeding track limits can include cases where a driver does not do enough to avoid exceeding track limits.

Look at it this way - if you go into a corner and you intend to stay on track but you are pushing hard, you can make a mistake and run wide and that, looked at in isolation, can't be viewed as intentional. But if you drive a whole Grand Prix distance, or a substantial part of one, deliberately leaving no margin for error in corners where there's a "get out of jail free" bit of tarmac on the exit, because you're using the tarmac beyond the track limits as your error margin, then you know from the outset that it's inevitable you're going to have to exceed track limits on a number of occasions duing the race. So there's a sense in which you are doing it deliberately.

I don't think it's unreasonable to look at it that way - we can see regularly that corners with concrete walls on the outside regularly go for an entire race meeting without anybody making a mistake and running wide into the wall. Similar corners with a white line then a curb then a strip of astroturf then a tarmac run-off area on the outside rarely seem to go one lap without somebody making a mistake and running wide. We know what the difference is. We need credible rules enforcement to keep the racing on the race track - the inconsistent and arbitrary enforcement we have now isn't good enough in my opinion.

Edited by redreni, 03 August 2013 - 14:51.

[Skinnyguy]

I don't think it's unreasonable to look at it that way - we can see regularly that corners with concrete walls on the outside regularly go for an entire race meeting without anybody making a mistake and running wide into the wall. Similar corners with a white line then a curb then a strip of astroturf then a tarmac run-off area on the outside rarely seem to go one lap without somebody making a mistake and running wide. We know what the difference is. We need credible rules enforcement to keep the racing on the race track - the inconsistent and arbitrary enforcement we have now isn't good enough in my opinion.

I say what we need is tracks with a strip of grass of 4 meters right where curbs ends.

But since that won´t likely happen, in my view we shouldn´t penalize drivers going wide to turf and losing out very little. It´s how tracks are, and they´ll obviously take more chances.