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Horrible 2014 sound [merged]


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#3201 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 09:04

Then just give a good reason as to why people go. But don't say anything that can be easily debunked. For example, don't say;

A) To see racing. Because if you want to see the racing watch it on TV. You will miss most of the action sitting at the track.
B) To see the cars up close. Because if you want to have a good look at the cars, again, watch it on TV. If you're at the track you'll be absolutely nowhere near the cars.
C) To know what is happening around the track. Because if you want to know what's actually happening, again, stay at home and watch it on TV. You will get pit reporters, people in the paddock, up to date weather forecast etc. Being at the track is putting yourself in an information vacuum.

Television coverage replaced being at the track for seeing racing years ago. Especially as being at the track has become less of an experience as years go on. Safety fences and seating positions make it hard to know what's going on even when the action is right in front of you. But at least you could still hear the cars.... At least until this year.

So go on, give a good reason as to why people cough up thousands of dollars for less of an experience than what they can already get at home. Because the only thing I can think of is the one thing that the television cannot and could never capture; The sound. It created the atmosphere of being at a race. Take that away, and what are you getting for your over priced ticket? The empty seats at recent races should give you your answer...

 

To see it in real life. Sure you can see the cars in close detail on your TV screen, but it still isn't quite the same as seeing them with your own eyes.

 

To get the atmosphere of the crowd (at the right venues of course).

 

To have a fun day out with your friends/family.

 

It can be good fun to follow a race live at the track in the "information vacuum". Keeping track of gaps and working out if people have pitted is part of the fun too.

 

The smell. TV can approximate the sound of even the old cars. It can not recreate the smell of burned rubber, oil, fuel, and all the other smells of the racetrack.

 

To be able to say "I was there. I saw it" when your favourite driver takes a historic win, or whatever historic moment could happen right in front of you.

 

In my memories of my first Grand Prix, Jerez 1997, the sound was incredible, but it's not the top memory of the race.



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#3202 BRG

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 09:48

I don't know... Racing cars are SUPPOSED to be loud.

 

Are they?  Where's that written down then?  I find this obsession with massive levels of noise rather juvenile.  There are many reasons to attending races in person, as several posters have already pointed out very clearly.  Suffering hearing damage isn't one of them.



#3203 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:54

I don't know... Racing cars are SUPPOSED to be loud.

 

 

Hmmm

 

I always believed that racing cars were to be as fast as possible under the rules and lwas of the category they compete in...

 

Now, have a look at this car

 

https://www.flickr.c...er/11404563306/

 

 

and a look at this one

 

http://public.fotki....indywinner.html

 

Both are from the same year.

 

 

And you are gonna tell me that even when they both look like race cars at least on sight but after hearing them one of them is no longer a race car to you anymore?

 

 

Henri



#3204 totgate

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:49

They just need to change their sound level set up. They've got exactly the same levels, microphones etc as they had for V8's. Just needs some really clever people to get to work with setting up directional microphones and then get the mix right.

 

They probably did something in Canada because that's the only race that the TV sound was somewhat acceptable so far.



#3205 chipmcdonald

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 16:22

Anyone here that claims they don't notice the expressions on people's faces in videos of F1 demonstrations in various countries, in reaction to hearing the (previously spectacularly impressive) sound, are lying.   Look at the people literally scream in reaction to it at the London 2004 demo, look at people applauding the sound of them at other demos.

 

Applauding the sound of a car!

 

 

......... Countless videos of people grinning ear to ear just upon hearing that sound.

 

If you don't get it, that's fine, but it's silly to pretend it's not an actual majority-pervasive phenomenon, and obviously it was a very important one.  It was F1's calling card.  There are plentiful videos marked "F1 - amazing sound!", "F1 impressive sound!".... I don't think you'll find many that say "F1 - radical fuel economy!", "F1 - excitingly soft sound!", etc...

 

:mad:

:cry:


Edited by chipmcdonald, 29 July 2014 - 16:23.


#3206 uffen

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 16:42

A cousin of mine went to one race years ago (3.5 litre era), just to have the experience. The one and only thing he remembers is the sound. He still recalls crossing a pedestrian bridge when a car went past below. He grins like mad when he tells the story. The sound!!

So, yes, sound is not the only thing to enjoy but to say it doesn't matter is just plain wrong.



#3207 JHSingo

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 16:45

Anyone here that claims they don't notice the expressions on people's faces in videos of F1 demonstrations in various countries, in reaction to hearing the (previously spectacularly impressive) sound, are lying.   Look at the people literally scream in reaction to it at the London 2004 demo, look at people applauding the sound of them at other demos.

 

Applauding the sound of a car!

 

 

......... Countless videos of people grinning ear to ear just upon hearing that sound.

 

 

Perhaps not. But I've seen numerous videos taken track side, people cheering and applauding the racing, such as this one. And for me, the racing is more important than the noise.

 


Edited by JHSingo, 29 July 2014 - 16:45.


#3208 BRG

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 16:51

Sound is one thing, volume is another.

 

I recall hearing Matra v12s all the way around Monaco (and all the way round Le Mans come to that) but I don't want to stand next to one close up as I did at Brands one year.  It is painful.  

 

The best sounds for me were a good Cosworth BDA in a rally car echoing across a Welsh valley.  Not loud but very evocative.  Or the V6 of a Lancia Stratos singing through the trees of Kielder forest.  Curiously enough both would have been equipped with SILENCERS!

 

If you need to bleed from the  ears to enjoy racing, I can only assume that also enjoy Motorhead.



#3209 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 17:14

Perhaps not. But I've seen numerous videos taken track side, people cheering and applauding the racing, such as this one. And for me, the racing is more important than the noise.

 

 

 

Just wish they could cheer not so loud so the cars can be heard. 



#3210 Spinnekop

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:49

Sound is one thing, volume is another.

 

I recall hearing Matra v12s all the way around Monaco (and all the way round Le Mans come to that) but I don't want to stand next to one close up as I did at Brands one year.  It is painful.  

 

The best sounds for me were a good Cosworth BDA in a rally car echoing across a Welsh valley.  Not loud but very evocative.  Or the V6 of a Lancia Stratos singing through the trees of Kielder forest.  Curiously enough both would have been equipped with SILENCERS!

A few years ago heard a Matra driven in anger and it was painfully loud in person while attending a historic car race meet at Killarney but a ticked off box on my bucket list.

 

Watching, hearing and feeling GT40s, 917's etc thundering by from the side of the back straight was incredible. The howl/scream of a 312PB  is something I'll never forget, meeting my heroes(those cars) was not a dissapointment.

 

I kept an Alfa V6 alive well past the point any sane person would have scrapped it just for it's beautiful character and amazing sound despite it's terrible mpg, emmisions and service costs.

 

Car fans are not reasonable people (they are just vehicles to get us from a to b after all, also much more practical and lower maintenance than a horse especially if it's raining  ;) )

 

If someone pulls up next to you at the traffic lights in for example a Ferrari gives it a full snap crackle pop rev you would have to be a pretty sad/resentfull person if that doesn't make you smile and a little bit happier for a moment :) 

 

:clap: Applauding the sound of a car!



#3211 CoolBreeze

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 03:18

The argument of sound can go on forever. I recall the Audi Motorsports director or something..Dr whatever said that sound is a useless thing, which is why most of, rather all of teh Audis have very low sound at Le Mans. 

 

Now, let me share my experience. I've been following Formula One for many many years. I've been to countless races, demos, etc. It's hard..really hard to convince my friends to come along, or even be an F1 fan. It just doesn't interest them. They often argue that it's better to sit on a sofa at home and enjoy some snacks rather than heading to the circuit and catch the real action. 

 

Things changes in 2004, when i successfully convinced some of my friends to follow me to catch a race. I must say....the first thing they got blown away was the sound of the mighty V10s. At the start when we had the whole field revving up for the 5 red lights, they even described to me that the sound was 'like as if the world was ending..' 

 

They got really intrigued with the sound, and the looks of the car. Some of them even recorded the cars passing by for their ringtones. Can you imagine that?! They have followed me for demos, and trully appreciate the technology, the beauty and the simplicity of the sport. 

 

Things have changed now. They don't follow the sport anymore, and blame it on the sound, and the looks of the cars. Take into account that these can be considered as new F1 fans. 

 

The current rules, and regulations not only insult the fans, but also, it's hard to explain to them. I've tried, but most of them concluded that F1 is just too controlled at the moment. And I can't disagree with them. The moment Lewis Hamilton came on the radio, last year i think, and said ..'I can't drive any slower man..' That already illustrates the condition of F1 these days. 

 

Go back to the 2008 looking cars. Those were beauties. Brings back V10s or V8s, minus the rev limiters. I don't mind the refuelling ban, but the fuel flow control is just absurd. Let qualifying be a free for all, 1 hour session. Let them test for one full day on Mondays after each races. ban DRS but go back to KERs, and let the driver control it, rather than the pitwall. Have a standard type of tyre for the whole weekend, rather than forcing them to switch to prime and options crap. 

 

The statistics don't lie. F1 is slowly falling away. Too much politics and meddling of rules. Too controlled environment. We want to see drivers race the wheels off. Not saving a set of tyres crap. We want to see unreliable and engine explosions. Be real. Not fake. 

 

The recent so called exciting races have been down to safety cars and rain. Nothing else. It would have been a traditional procession. Lets' start by bringing back the sound, rather then a trumpet looking exhaust, penis noses, and fake sparks...



#3212 chipmcdonald

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:45

 

It's hard..really hard to convince my friends to come along, or even be an F1 fan. It just doesn't interest them. They often argue that it's better to sit on a sofa at home and enjoy some snacks rather than heading to the circuit and catch the real action. 

 

Things changes in 2004, when i successfully convinced some of my friends to follow me to catch a race. I must say....the first thing they got blown away was the sound of the mighty V10s. At the start when we had the whole field revving up for the 5 red lights, they even described to me that the sound was 'like as if the world was ending..' 

 

They got really intrigued with the sound, and the looks of the car. Some of them even recorded the cars passing by for their ringtones. Can you imagine that?! They have followed me for demos, and trully appreciate the technology, the beauty and the simplicity of the sport. 

 

Things have changed now. They don't follow the sport anymore, and blame it on the sound, and the looks of the cars.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 I have the same exact story.  The draw of all of the superlatives of F1 around 2002-2004 allowed me to pull some friends in. 

 

1) Indy was cheap and gave you great value: sit wherever you want except on race day, pit walk.  General admission had plenty of options, and there was a lot of track to see even from the viewing mounds.

 

2) F1: the sound was always the first thing.  But also at the time, the *uniqueness of the engines*, 19,000 rpm.   And cars that looked futuristic and purposeful, without being bozonic.  Serious looking rear wing, no proboscis monkey nose. 

 

What do I say now, if I wanted to get a friend into F1.....? 

 

.... I got 'nuthin.

 

 

"You might see some great racing for a couple of laps, if it turns out the math allows an opposing team's car to be matched up at some point in their fuel and tire strategy with another".   Not really the entertainment spectacle I promised friends back at the turn of the millennium.

 

 

I remember the biggest thing in the early 2000's was that I had some friends that knew of F1, but "those cars just sound like they buzzy".  Of course the sound didn't translate on a little tv speaker.

 

.. but now, yeah... they just sound buzzy.  F1's calling card.

 

 

:(



#3213 Ijsman

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 12:41

 

The statistics don't lie. F1 is slowly falling away. Too much politics and meddling of rules. Too controlled environment. We want to see drivers race the wheels off. Not saving a set of tyres crap. We want to see unreliable and engine explosions. Be real. Not fake. 

 

The recent so called exciting races have been down to safety cars and rain. Nothing else. It would have been a traditional procession. Lets' start by bringing back the sound, rather then a trumpet looking exhaust, penis noses, and fake sparks...

 

I agree it's too controlled sometimes. But have you seen the battles of Vettel, Alonso and Ricciardo this year, especially last races? Use your eyes man, it's great racing, better than I have seen since 1979 with Villeneuve and Arnoux. And most exciting 

races are due to something special happening, get real. Fact is, this year has more exciting races than ever. Just coincidence with rain and stuff? I don't think so. The cropping of the aero to go towards more mechanical grip opposed to aero grip really paid off, among other things.

 

EDIT: and let me add, I'm not a mercedes fan or hamilton or rosberg fan. I'm a Kimi fan (Ijsman is dutch for Iceman) so that kind of bias is not the reason I like the racing so much this season.

 

By the way I do agree with you to be against the artificiality of the "solutions" the FIA tries to implement, that stuff is fake as ****. 

I remember the biggest thing in the early 2000's was that I had some friends that knew of F1, but "those cars just sound like they buzzy".  Of course the sound didn't translate on a little tv speaker.

 

.. but now, yeah... they just sound buzzy.  F1's calling card.

 

 

:(

 

They don't at all sound buzzy to me this year. I was at hockenheim and surprised at how good they sounded. Have you seen them live?


Edited by Ijsman, 30 July 2014 - 12:44.


#3214 chipmcdonald

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 15:10


 

They don't at all sound buzzy to me this year. I was at hockenheim and surprised at how good they sounded. Have you seen them live?

 

 That's not the gist of my post, but I do not need to go to weigh the remarks of people that have.  The point is that, if F1 had any sort of "problem" with the product they were selling circa early 2000's, it was in the drastic contrast in impressiveness of the live sound versus the televised sound.  The sound is no longer a selling point.



#3215 Slartibartfast

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 15:39

If F1 had a problem with selling the product in the early 2000s, it was with the boring, processional racing.

#3216 Ijsman

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 16:12

 That's not the gist of my post, but I do not need to go to weigh the remarks of people that have.  The point is that, if F1 had any sort of "problem" with the product they were selling circa early 2000's, it was in the drastic contrast in impressiveness of the live sound versus the televised sound.  The sound is no longer a selling point.

 

Of course, in reality they were way louder than on TV. And now, thesame is the case, but with quieter tv sound and less loud at the track. It is less of a selling point now indeed as the sound is not as loud anymore. Still loud, but not ear-piercing. Instead, we gained another selling point: wheel to wheel racing. Which is not the least of selling points I'd say. 

 

Just being curious, did your friends really start following F1 from the time you took them to a race, until last year? Or were they more just a fan of the sound? 



#3217 nonobaddog

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 20:13

To many of us racing fans the beautiful loud sound of a racing engine doing its thing is a huge part of the whole track side experience.  Anyone who thinks that is not true is just in denial or totally unaware of the reactions of other people.  But there are people who do not understand the impact of the sound.  
There are even people that actually prefer the farty sound of the 2014 F1 cars.  I admit I do not understand them either but good on 'em anyhow.  They prefer nice, quiet, polite race cars.  They are not bad people, they just don't get it.


#3218 SpartanChas

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 21:17

How is anyone supposed to convince a non F1 fan to come to a race now? You have to be a hardcore fan, or rich, to buy a ticket these days, at these prices.

Which race did I prefer attending? The one where my favorite driver won, or the races I saw in the V8 era? The former, of course. The one that saw a massive battle between two multiple champions. And because I was there, I didn't hear their radio communications.

Edited by SpartanChas, 30 July 2014 - 21:21.


#3219 JHSingo

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 21:53

The argument of sound can go on forever. I recall the Audi Motorsports director or something..Dr whatever said that sound is a useless thing, which is why most of, rather all of teh Audis have very low sound at Le Mans. 

 

Now, let me share my experience. I've been following Formula One for many many years. I've been to countless races, demos, etc. It's hard..really hard to convince my friends to come along, or even be an F1 fan. It just doesn't interest them. They often argue that it's better to sit on a sofa at home and enjoy some snacks rather than heading to the circuit and catch the real action. 

 

Things changes in 2004, when i successfully convinced some of my friends to follow me to catch a race. I must say....the first thing they got blown away was the sound of the mighty V10s. At the start when we had the whole field revving up for the 5 red lights, they even described to me that the sound was 'like as if the world was ending..' 

 

They got really intrigued with the sound, and the looks of the car. Some of them even recorded the cars passing by for their ringtones. Can you imagine that?! They have followed me for demos, and trully appreciate the technology, the beauty and the simplicity of the sport. 

 

Things have changed now. They don't follow the sport anymore, and blame it on the sound, and the looks of the cars. Take into account that these can be considered as new F1 fans. 

 

The current rules, and regulations not only insult the fans, but also, it's hard to explain to them. I've tried, but most of them concluded that F1 is just too controlled at the moment. And I can't disagree with them. The moment Lewis Hamilton came on the radio, last year i think, and said ..'I can't drive any slower man..' That already illustrates the condition of F1 these days. 

 

Go back to the 2008 looking cars. Those were beauties. Brings back V10s or V8s, minus the rev limiters. I don't mind the refuelling ban, but the fuel flow control is just absurd. Let qualifying be a free for all, 1 hour session. Let them test for one full day on Mondays after each races. ban DRS but go back to KERs, and let the driver control it, rather than the pitwall. Have a standard type of tyre for the whole weekend, rather than forcing them to switch to prime and options crap. 

 

The statistics don't lie. F1 is slowly falling away. Too much politics and meddling of rules. Too controlled environment. We want to see drivers race the wheels off. Not saving a set of tyres crap. We want to see unreliable and engine explosions. Be real. Not fake. 

 

The recent so called exciting races have been down to safety cars and rain. Nothing else. It would have been a traditional procession. Lets' start by bringing back the sound, rather then a trumpet looking exhaust, penis noses, and fake sparks...

 

I'll be brutally honest here. Those friends you talk of, they don't sound like they were true F1 fans at any point. To call them F1 fans, when they only appreciate very basic stuff, such as what the cars sound and look like would be pushing it.

 

It doesn't sound like they appreciated the racing, the strategy, the speed, the element of risk involved, the skill it takes to drive such cars, with the tremendous g-forces etc, the drama, or any of the other things that makes Formula One great. No, they liked two things. They weren't fans of F1. Really, if F1 loses people like that following, then so what? There are many more people who have stuck by the sport through many regulation changes, and can appreciate the sport beyond two elements.

 

To use your analogy, it'd be taking a friend to a concert of a particular band. The friend you take isn't bothered about the music, or the atmosphere, or anything, they only like one person in that band. Then that one person leaves the band, and your friend doesn't go to any of that band's concerts any more. So what were they really a fan of, the band, or a person in the band?

 

You say the races where only exciting because of safety cars/the weather. Hasn't that really always been the case? In 2004 in particular there were a lot of breathtakingly dull boring races, but hey, the sound was amazing, and that's all that matters, isn't it?

 

2008 cars were good looking? Really?

Honda_Dumbo_Wings.jpg

Lewis%20Hamilton%202008%20British%20Gran

 

I wouldn't care if the current cars played ice cream van music. So long as the racing is exiting, it doesn't matter to me. Really, F1 fans have been spoilt in recent years. Like Will Buxton recently wrote, the racing in the last few years has been so good, that really everyone's forgotten how processional and dull it used to be.

 

http://willthef1jour...07/28/new-coke/


Edited by JHSingo, 30 July 2014 - 21:58.


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#3220 Callisto

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 22:51

I heard the great V10s at Silverstone in 2000 watching Mika test and the sound was truly awesome,Last year i was at the young drivers test and heard the ear splitting V8s and loved it.When i went to the Silverstone test this year i was supprised at the sound of the new V6s,although the sound wasn't anywhere as ear splitting as previous times it was still loud and very much enjoyable(im a dj used to extremly loud enviroments)

#3221 CoolBreeze

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Posted Yesterday, 01:54

I'll be brutally honest here. Those friends you talk of, they don't sound like they were true F1 fans at any point. To call them F1 fans, when they only appreciate very basic stuff, such as what the cars sound and look like would be pushing it.

 

It doesn't sound like they appreciated the racing, the strategy, the speed, the element of risk involved, the skill it takes to drive such cars, with the tremendous g-forces etc, the drama, or any of the other things that makes Formula One great. No, they liked two things. They weren't fans of F1. Really, if F1 loses people like that following, then so what? There are many more people who have stuck by the sport through many regulation changes, and can appreciate the sport beyond two elements.

 

To use your analogy, it'd be taking a friend to a concert of a particular band. The friend you take isn't bothered about the music, or the atmosphere, or anything, they only like one person in that band. Then that one person leaves the band, and your friend doesn't go to any of that band's concerts any more. So what were they really a fan of, the band, or a person in the band?

 

You say the races where only exciting because of safety cars/the weather. Hasn't that really always been the case? In 2004 in particular there were a lot of breathtakingly dull boring races, but hey, the sound was amazing, and that's all that matters, isn't it?

 

2008 cars were good looking? Really?

Honda_Dumbo_Wings.jpg

 

 

I wouldn't care if the current cars played ice cream van music. So long as the racing is exiting, it doesn't matter to me. Really, F1 fans have been spoilt in recent years. Like Will Buxton recently wrote, the racing in the last few years has been so good, that really everyone's forgotten how processional and dull it used to be.

 

http://willthef1jour...07/28/new-coke/

 

 

Firstly, like i said..new fans...you don't just become a hardcore fan overnight, do you?

 

 

These guys know nothing about F1. Nothing. I'm talking about guys and girls in their mid 20s. Yet, my point was, the attraction..the pulling factor. Was the looks and the sounds of the car, no one ever said about interesting races. Did you even bother to read my post? These guys are not bothered about the G forces and the amount of weight a driver loses over the period of an F1 race. They never knew what the lines on grooved tyres are for. 

 

Instead, they appreciated how the car looked, how futuristic wings, winglets, something they have never seen in other series before. They appreciated the wails of the engine, the fact that how late the drivers brake, and how much more scary it looks in real life. 

 

As for the pictures you posted, the dumbo ears on the Honda was just a trial and error thing. I don't even recall it being used in races. The looks of the 2008 Mclaren with the chrome finishing was simply stunning. I'm not saying that my opinion is 100% right..hey, one man's treasure is another man's poison. But think about have there been any praises, or any positive thing said about the penis looking cars?

 

As for your analysis of great racing, it's just here and there, and rather inconsistent. It's definitely true, that over the last decade there's hardly been passing, but as my proposals above, improvement can be done. The solutions however, cannot be fake...



#3222 Ijsman

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Posted Yesterday, 07:44

Instead, they appreciated how the car looked, how futuristic wings, winglets, something they have never seen in other series before. They appreciated the wails of the engine, the fact that how late the drivers brake, and how much more scary it looks in real life. 

 

The things you describe, anyone could appreciate this. But would it really make them fans? I think that if you want to convert them to real fans, they have to like the racing itself. Because that is what F1 is in it's core. A friend of mine liked the winglets too in that era. He looked at it once and said, "hey, those things look pretty cool", and proceded with doing what he did before: not watch F1 races. 

 

And I know what you are gonna say, "sound is a draw-in factor". It certainly is. Like all of the other stuff. But how many people that are impressed by the sound turn into racing fans? My point is, they have to be impressed by more than the sound. They have to have an intrinsic liking of racing. If your friends can't like F1 from TV, they can't and won't become F1 fans, period. Going to a live race is just another nice experience to them, nothing else.



#3223 chipmcdonald

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Posted Yesterday, 08:15

We don't have "great racing" now, unless something weird happens that takes fuel out of the equation.  We have the Vettel/Alonso matchup, that happens when their car's fuel strategy intersects and Alonso (as he has stated) has the fuel to actually *race*, and we have the intramural battles at some point - because the cars are matched.  The rest is illusion: out of sync tire strategy, or mechanical failures we don't know about (re. Perez in Germany).  Until they're on their last set of tires you can't really know what you're watching - somebody trying to make their first stint go long getting passed, or somebody on their 2nd stint with scrubbed tires - these are not 1:1 situations, not until all of the tire non-sense has shaken out in the last stint. 

 

Take out tire mis-matches, "invisible to fans" mechanical failure passes, wrecked fuel strategy passes, DRS flip-flopping, what's left over?  The start, and a handful of laps (maybe) in the closing stages of the race.  A charade in the middle.

 

Not that having quiet engines has any sort of inverse relationship to the amount of passing, anyhow.   It's so artificial now it's like Nutrasweet racing.  It's "kind of" like Real Car Racing, but like phenylalanine the actual formula is long and complex.   



#3224 Ijsman

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Posted Yesterday, 09:02

We don't have "great racing" now, unless something weird happens that takes fuel out of the equation.  We have the Vettel/Alonso matchup, that happens when their car's fuel strategy intersects and Alonso (as he has stated) has the fuel to actually *race*, and we have the intramural battles at some point - because the cars are matched.  The rest is illusion: out of sync tire strategy, or mechanical failures we don't know about (re. Perez in Germany).  Until they're on their last set of tires you can't really know what you're watching - somebody trying to make their first stint go long getting passed, or somebody on their 2nd stint with scrubbed tires - these are not 1:1 situations, not until all of the tire non-sense has shaken out in the last stint. 

 

Take out tire mis-matches, "invisible to fans" mechanical failure passes, wrecked fuel strategy passes, DRS flip-flopping, what's left over?  The start, and a handful of laps (maybe) in the closing stages of the race.  A charade in the middle.

 

Not that having quiet engines has any sort of inverse relationship to the amount of passing, anyhow.   It's so artificial now it's like Nutrasweet racing.  It's "kind of" like Real Car Racing, but like phenylalanine the actual formula is long and complex.   

 

Yes, people are on different strategies. But would you rather watch everyone on the same strategy, gradually stretching out the procession over the course of the race? Be realistic man, that is not that exciting. You have a picture in your head of the past that is unrealistic. But at least back then (1990s-2013) they had good sound, right? LOL.



#3225 Rinehart

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Posted Yesterday, 09:05

Is it me or are they sounding better/louder on TV than they did at the beginning of the year?

 

Interestingly the sound of the support races seems to have got louder too, (you can here them much more in the background in some of the Sky F1 shows).

 

I am certain that the FOM have focused on the circuit side sound recording and sound reproduction (and haven't told the public) and stealthily improved it, (rather than the cars).

 

Does anybody know this has happened for a fact?



#3226 Burai

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Posted Yesterday, 09:56

The things you describe, anyone could appreciate this. But would it really make them fans? I think that if you want to convert them to real fans, they have to like the racing itself. Because that is what F1 is in it's core. A friend of mine liked the winglets too in that era. He looked at it once and said, "hey, those things look pretty cool", and proceded with doing what he did before: not watch F1 races. 

 

And I know what you are gonna say, "sound is a draw-in factor". It certainly is. Like all of the other stuff. But how many people that are impressed by the sound turn into racing fans? My point is, they have to be impressed by more than the sound. They have to have an intrinsic liking of racing. If your friends can't like F1 from TV, they can't and won't become F1 fans, period. Going to a live race is just another nice experience to them, nothing else.

 

Exactly. There was a poster above who talked about people applauding the sound of the cars during the London demo but just how many of those people went straight home and bought tickets to the GP? How many even bothered to watch it on the TV? I love the spectacle of the Red Arrows. Have I ever been to an organised air show to see more planes? No, because the coloured diesel burning for free over my house scratched my itch, see you again next year for another free show.

 

You have to absolutely, fundamentally like the racing in order to be able to watch the racing beyond more than a one-off curiosity. Noise isn't enough to get someone to tune in every other weekend and watch motor racing, nor should noise be enough to turn someone that truly likes racing off of the sport.



#3227 David1976

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Posted Yesterday, 10:53

I still think the quality of the sound is important.  Also the volume.  At the moment they are probably 10-20% down on what people would like.

 

But I don't see any easy solution given the efficiency formula.  Not unless they increase the revs but that will be counter productive to the efficiency objective.



#3228 JHSingo

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Posted Yesterday, 11:56

We don't have "great racing" now, unless something weird happens that takes fuel out of the equation.  We have the Vettel/Alonso matchup, that happens when their car's fuel strategy intersects and Alonso (as he has stated) has the fuel to actually *race*, and we have the intramural battles at some point - because the cars are matched.  The rest is illusion: out of sync tire strategy, or mechanical failures we don't know about (re. Perez in Germany).  Until they're on their last set of tires you can't really know what you're watching - somebody trying to make their first stint go long getting passed, or somebody on their 2nd stint with scrubbed tires - these are not 1:1 situations, not until all of the tire non-sense has shaken out in the last stint. 

 

Take out tire mis-matches, "invisible to fans" mechanical failure passes, wrecked fuel strategy passes, DRS flip-flopping, what's left over?  The start, and a handful of laps (maybe) in the closing stages of the race.  A charade in the middle.

 

Not that having quiet engines has any sort of inverse relationship to the amount of passing, anyhow.   It's so artificial now it's like Nutrasweet racing.  It's "kind of" like Real Car Racing, but like phenylalanine the actual formula is long and complex.   

 

How is that any worse than what we had before?

 

In the past, the most passing we ever saw in races was when somebody would pit for fuel. The on track action was nowhere near as good, we very rarely had wheel to wheel battles. And races were often very processional. I remember often that a car would be a lot faster than one ahead, catch it really quickly, and then just get stuck, unable to pass. Yes, perhaps they didn't have to look after tyres and save fuel as much as they do now - but the racing wasn't as exciting either. So I honestly don't understand this yearning for the past. But to each their own.



#3229 BullHead

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Posted Yesterday, 12:04

For me anyway, have I said this before? :-

Yes, sound is a thing. A bit of a shame to lose that one (and one of many) wow factors. But it is not a huge thing, it's a change. And to listen to the new cars is a still a wow factor of a different kind.
In the grand scheme of all that is wow about Grand Prix racing, it really isn't that big an issue.
If it were the only issue at hand these days I'd have more sympathy for the fuss.

In the face of what else is being done to F1 it's nothing. Not even an issue.

#3230 paipa

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Posted Yesterday, 12:59

And to listen to the new cars is a still a wow factor of a different kind.

I heard the new engines three weeks ago in Hockenheim for the first time. It is indeed a different kind of wow factor. It's like "Wow, they suck more than I thought!" The V10s and V8s were so god damned loud that despite the V6s' disappointing sound over TV I expected them to be still quite loud in person and continue to give extra-aural sensations like resonate your chest and stuff. They don't.

 

The German and Hungarian GPs had negative attendance records this year but you'll see them falling further next year along with other GPs, now that people saw firsthand how much of the experience was lost. I can only speak for myself but I've been a regular race-goer and I'll not go to an F1 race again until noise comes back or ticket prices halve. However shallow it is, sound always meant half the trackside experience to me and now that it's gone I'm just not willing to pay 300+ euros for a ticket.

 

And I laughed at those loudspeaker exhaust experiments initially... well not anymore.



#3231 TheCaptain

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Posted Yesterday, 13:00

I can honestly say that I've not thought about the sound of the cars during the last races one bit.   It's like when the narrow rear wings came in - you notice the difference initially but then just get used to it.    In fact now seeing the low wide ones look a bit strange.   The clue is in how the sport is described - it's car racing not a noise competition.    And ultimately the noise is no more important to the racing than the color of the paint.   Of course it might change the experience of being at a race (you don't have to wear ear plugs anymore, for one!).     Racing now is as exciting as I remember - sure there are some niggles about "the show" and stuff being manipulated, but I don't ever remember an era of F1 where strategy hasn't paid a part - it's never been a sprint to the line, race flat out sport.     In fact there's nothing stopping anyone from doing that now if they want, it's just you'd have to change tyres more often than others, and be in an engine mode where the fuel would last the distance.     

 

This has always been the case though - even before this seasons limits, it carried a weight penalty anyway so teams would want to limit it, parts are made to last just as long as they need to last.     The downside with the cost cutting and parts having to last for more than 1 race means that there is greater reliability and less retirements which personally I think is the one thing that's missing these days (although this season has been a bit better).      At least in the old days when processional races were the norm, all you had to look forward to was an unexpected retirement.     



#3232 yasushi888

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Posted Yesterday, 13:20

I can honestly say that I've not thought about the sound of the cars during the last races one bit.

But were you at the races? For me the sound issue is down to the live experience. On Tv although I do think its worse, I can put up with it and viewing the races hasn't changed too much, the sound on the feed has never been representative of the true sound anyway. At the circuit though its very different. Also the wing proportions still look wrong to me!!!!



#3233 nonobaddog

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Posted Yesterday, 13:23

The processional racing is largely caused by allowing big wings and too much down force.  The cars leave a wake of disturbed air behind them that does not allow a following car to generate its own down force therefore it can't turn or brake as well as the leading car and can never get close enough to execute a pass.  Instead of limiting the wings like they should have done years ago they decided to introduce DRS to enable passing on the longer straights.  That is just one of the band-aid mistakes they have made.  Also this is a separate issue from the sound of the cars.  If they allow bigger wings again we could have processional racing and crappy sound.  If they keep the fuel limitations we could have processional coasting, short shifting, crappy sound and no fans, whoopee.



#3234 nonobaddog

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Posted Yesterday, 13:36

it's never been a sprint to the line, race flat out sport.     In fact there's nothing stopping anyone from doing that now if they want, it's just you'd have to change tyres more often than others, and be in an engine mode where the fuel would last the distance.     

 

You can't race to the cars potential and be in an engine mode where the fuel would last the distance.  They don't allow enough fuel for real racing anymore.  The drivers are constantly changing fuel modes during the races to get their fuel numbers.  Even if you have enough yellows and everybody has enough fuel to try to race they still can't because of the fuel flow limit.  They can't get much over 11-12K rpms.  The current regulations choke the cars in so many ways it is a mockery of F1.