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Horrible 2014 sound [merged]


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#3301 l34052

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 06:36

The racing has improved, and the teams have had to work on more than just aero. That the noise isn't the same as it has been (nor was the previous sound the same as that before it, or the noise before that.. And so on) and the cars are a different kind of ugly, should be secondary to the fact motor racing generally should revolve around motor RACING, not motor sounding, or motor looking. If a "life long" fan has given up now, and not when we had dumbo ears and flatulent diffuser blowing coupled with less actual racing, I wonder quite what it was that was so appealing for so long.

Errr how exactly has the racing improved? we have a single team completely dominating everyone else with the drivers and constructors championship fought out by hamilton and rosberg in the fastest cars while the rest of the field scrabble around like the keystone cops behind them for the rest of the points, and now with those god awfull engines the spectacle of all that has gone too its boring and uninteresting to watch.

 

I hear people talk about hearing tire squeal etc etc but im sorry, i watch F1 for a high revving howl of an engine as the drivers scream by me battling for position coming up to the next corner 2 or 3 abreast no one wanting to give up, if i want to hear squealing tires i could sit around my city centre or any of the shopping parks and listen to that anytime, its pathetic in my view.

 

F1 is and always has been a spectacle, an assault on the senses even, that was part of the appeal of goin to a circuit to watch a race. The racing was obviously the main focus but the noise and atmosphere created was absolutely unique. The feeling of sitting in the stand at the start of a race with all the cars waiting to go was simply amazing, the energy involved, the vibrations, the smells, the noise, everything came together to make a truly amazing and breathtaking spectacle that once experienced would NEVER be forgotten.

 

All we have today is a quiet brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm, theres absolutely no comparison at all and its an insult to call it F1 in my view.


Edited by l34052, 11 August 2014 - 06:37.


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#3302 ClubmanGT

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 06:54

The F5000 cars live are more of a spectacle tbh - and they're racing museum pieces so they don't tend to get raced too hard, so it's kind of saying something. 



#3303 CoolBreeze

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 06:54

Excellent post. 



#3304 Wuzak

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 08:44

I hear people talk about hearing tire squeal etc etc but im sorry, i watch F1 for a high revving howl of an engine as the drivers scream by me battling for position coming up to the next corner 2 or 3 abreast no one wanting to give up, if i want to hear squealing tires i could sit around my city centre or any of the shopping parks and listen to that anytime, its pathetic in my view.

 

When did that last happen?

 

Certainly not in the V8 era.

 

And you are distressed about one team dominating - hasn't that pretty much been the case for the past 4 years? Albeit with one driver only.



#3305 Ijsman

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 09:24

Errr how exactly has the racing improved? we have a single team completely dominating everyone else with the drivers and constructors championship fought out by hamilton and rosberg in the fastest cars while the rest of the field scrabble around like the keystone cops behind them for the rest of the points, and now with those god awfull engines the spectacle of all that has gone too its boring and uninteresting to watch.

How exactly has the racing improved you ask? And then say there's one team dominating which, by your logic, is enough evidence that racing hasn't improved. [insert meme] What if I said that racing can improve while one team is dominating. If you say it's too boring and uninteresting to watch, don't watch. You obviously don't like racing. Go do something you like, do yourself a favor. Go to a drag race and use no earplugs. You'll love it, I guarantee it.

 

l34052, on 11 Aug 2014 - 08:36, said:

 

F1 is and always has been a spectacle, an assault on the senses even, that was part of the appeal of goin to a circuit to watch a race. The racing was obviously the main focus but the noise and atmosphere created was absolutely unique. The feeling of sitting in the stand at the start of a race with all the cars waiting to go was simply amazing, the energy involved, the vibrations, the smells, the noise, everything came together to make a truly amazing and breathtaking spectacle that once experienced would NEVER be forgotten.

 

All we have today is a quiet brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm, theres absolutely no comparison at all and its an insult to call it F1 in my view.

It hasn't always been an assault on the senses. V6 turbo engines have earlier been in F1 and they weren't that loud either. And by the way, the engines aren't quiet, they're just less loud. But you can still feel the vibrations of them. They're more bassy, a frequency that isn't transmitted as well through TV as treble. And I can know it, because I've seen them the whole weekend at Hockenheim. I didn't like the change at first either and thought about returning my tickets (people don't like change in general) but I was pleasantly surprised when I saw them live.

 

I know what you mean though. The high pitched uber loud ear-splitting sound is gone, it has changed. It can be hard, but we have to say goodbye to it like an old friend. The V6 turbo is back, and it's still F1. You have three options:

1) Keep following it and see the positives of the new engines and regulations instead of focusing on the negatives. 

2) Keep following it and focus on the negatives, keep thinking of the past and whine away on this board with invalid arguments trying to justify your opinion (which you're free to do).

3) Say goodbye to F1 and follow other classes.



#3306 Sash1

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 10:14

I was very close again to a V8 RB8 last week and it is definitely not ear-splitting uber-loud. I have yet to hear a new V6, but judging on the diffences in video's and on dB meters I doubt I'd be impressed by it. 



#3307 Henri Greuter

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 10:21

I was very close again to a V8 RB8 last week and it is definitely not ear-splitting uber-loud. I have yet to hear a new V6, but judging on the diffences in video's and on dB meters I doubt I'd be impressed by it. 

 

Whow, I think you must seriously consider to have your hearing checked. Your quote reads to me as you may have a serious defunction not detected yet.

 

 

Henri



#3308 Clatter

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 10:51

Whow, I think you must seriously consider to have your hearing checked. Your quote reads to me as you may have a serious defunction not detected yet.

 

 

Henri

I was thinking the same thing, but then I have sat near to cars when they are being demoed and they don't use anywhere near full revs so they are quieter than those running at max out on the track.



#3309 Henri Greuter

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 11:29

I was thinking the same thing, but then I have sat near to cars when they are being demoed and they don't use anywhere near full revs so they are quieter than those running at max out on the track.

 

 

Ah, you suggest that this Red Bull never reached its maximum of 19000.RPM,

Now, that sounds (he he) an acceptable theory. If it is indeed warming and demonstrating only, there is good reason to believe they won't revv it up to the max engine speed for a prolonged time. And yes, Sash1 may have a point then.

 

 

I remember, back in 1998 I was at the Goodwood festival of speed and Buck Boudeman had brought over his freshly restored 1946 frontdrive Novi.

That car had a 3 liter centrifugally supercharged shortstroke V8, capable of for the time very high rves of up to 7000 tot 7500 rpm.

When Boudeman demoed the engine and warmed it up for runs on the hill, everyone in the parking lot behind him vacated the lot because that thing was so loud. That Novi V8 was capable of 130 dB.

Boudeman did not rev it to 7500 and still everyone in the direct neighborhood took some steps back and did not stand behind the car anymore........

 

Henri



#3310 Sash1

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 11:45

Of course I could not see the rev count, but it lapped 3 seconds from the lap record (altough I also assume not at race level revs). On the other hand we have some very loud engines ourselves (app 105-115 dB) and some experiences with late sixties Honda motorcycle racing engines. A full grid would help too. The more engines running together, the higher the noise level.



#3311 Pingguest

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 11:47

I still believe the sound or the lack of it are not really the problem with the current breed of engines. No-one complains about a lack of sound at Le Mans, despite low-revving and even diesel engines are used in Endurance racing, at least within the LMP1-class, and no-one complained about the lack of sound during the first turbo-era.

 

In my opinion the problem affects the entire package, as the current generation of cars have nothing really special visibly. The ground effect cars looked raw, were visibly very hard on the drivers physically and allowed close racing. The post-1983 flat-bottemed turbo-charged cars were wild beasts with power twice their weight, separating men from the boys. The post-1989 cars were refined and very advanced, as they were fitted with very sophisticated and relevant technologies that made NASA jealous. The pre-2006 cars had some of those technologies, but they had above all a very great sound.

But what does the current breed of cars special and worth watching the race? It is very hard, if not impossible, to find an unique characteristic. They lack sound, are not too difficult to drive, are fitted with an increasing number of technologies that are homologated, equalized or even standardized, and do not allow close racing, unless the use of artificial means, such as the Pirelli tyres and DRS.



#3312 scheivlak

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 20:16

 

But what does the current breed of cars special and worth watching the race? It is very hard, if not impossible, to find an unique characteristic. They lack sound, are not too difficult to drive, are fitted with an increasing number of technologies that are homologated, equalized or even standardized, and do not allow close racing, unless the use of artificial means, such as the Pirelli tyres and DRS.

Not difficult to drive? How do you know? 

Do not allow close racing? Haven't you seen the last few races?!

Equalized or standardized? Do you still live in 2013? Do you pay attention at all?

 

Cars are more difficult to drive than they were in many years and we see a lot more close racing this year - as a result of the lack of aero grip.

We see quite some difference in engine performance.

And finally we see more difference between cars visually than in many, many years. Yes, there are some very ugly specimen among them but IMHO also some cars that are more striking and beautiful in their own way than anything I've seen in years in Formula 1. 


Edited by scheivlak, 11 August 2014 - 20:16.


#3313 chipmcdonald

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 16:02

I still believe the sound or the lack of it are not really the problem with the current breed of engines. No-one complains about a lack of sound at Le Mans, despite low-revving and even diesel engines are used in Endurance racing, at least within the LMP1-class, and no-one complained about the lack of sound during the first turbo-era.

 

But you still have the Corvettes - which sound great, and for that matter I'm quite sure all of the GT cars are louder than the F1 cars this year.

 

WEC's appeal is a little different than F1, for obvious reasons: as an event people go to, it's more of a quasi-camping/festival thing.  It's not just for 2 hours of racing.  I know people that go to ALMS events effectively because it's a good excuse to go camping.  



#3314 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 16:27

I was at winter testing and Le Mans. The Corvette and Rebellions blew me away. Even the Porsche V4 was alright. The Audis are novel and you have to appreciate them.

But I will add that both were first times and the noise didn't feel like a huge piece of the experience. Merely seeing the F1 cars in action was enough.

But whenever the yellow flash of Corvette approached I did close my eyes and try to take every last sound and vibration in. Was brilliant.

Edited by TomNokoe, 12 August 2014 - 16:35.


#3315 Pingguest

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 17:17

Not difficult to drive? How do you know? 

Do not allow close racing? Haven't you seen the last few races?!

Equalized or standardized? Do you still live in 2013? Do you pay attention at all?

 

Cars are more difficult to drive than they were in many years and we see a lot more close racing this year - as a result of the lack of aero grip.

We see quite some difference in engine performance.

And finally we see more difference between cars visually than in many, many years. Yes, there are some very ugly specimen among them but IMHO also some cars that are more striking and beautiful in their own way than anything I've seen in years in Formula 1. 

 

1. During this year's Australian Grand Prix weekend Lewis Hamilton said the current breed of cars are easier to drive, despite the increase of torque.

2. Most 'close racing' was due to the Pirelli tyres and DRS. And due to the Safety Car of course; without its deployment Ricciardo would have never won in Hungary.

3. Have you ever tried reading the 2014 Sporting and Technical Regulations?



#3316 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 17:37

Really? In an interview with Will Buxton he said something along the lines of "oh it's terrible compared to last year, but good terrible compared to the rest of the grid" when Buxton commented on Lewis saying it's the best car he's driven.

#3317 scheivlak

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 18:41

1. During this year's Australian Grand Prix weekend Lewis Hamilton said the current breed of cars are easier to drive, despite the increase of torque.

2. Most 'close racing' was due to the Pirelli tyres and DRS. And due to the Safety Car of course; without its deployment Ricciardo would have never won in Hungary.

3. Have you ever tried reading the 2014 Sporting and Technical Regulations?

1. See Tom's answer -and take some time to read what midfield drivers think about it.

2. It seems you've missed my point.

3. Yes.



#3318 morrino

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 18:45

1. During this year's Australian Grand Prix weekend Lewis Hamilton said the current breed of cars are easier to drive, despite the increase of torque.

2. Most 'close racing' was due to the Pirelli tyres and DRS. And due to the Safety Car of course; without its deployment Ricciardo would have never won in Hungary.

3. Have you ever tried reading the 2014 Sporting and Technical Regulations?

 

Oh, thanks to safety car, I see. The same safety car that produced spectacular races in the last 3 or 4 years...

 

DRS and Pirelli? Didn't know they're new features in 2014.



#3319 Timstr11

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 18:51

I read Hamilton's comment about cars being easier (less physical) to drive. It has to do with progressive cuts in downforce since 2009.

Cornering speeds have decreased significantly leading to lower G forces on the neck and body. When he started in 2007, it took quite some effort to get his neck strength up.

Now guys can jump form a GP2 car into an F1 without having that problem.

I do believe that taking away that physical aspect was not a good thing.



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#3320 ApexMouse

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 18:59

And yet 2010 and 2013 had some of the highest cornering speeds ever...



#3321 Timstr11

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 19:09

And yet 2010 and 2013 had some of the highest cornering speeds ever...

Which had everything to do with ebd.

Unlikely teams will find a new trick with that magnitude.



#3322 SpartanChas

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 19:34

Errr how exactly has the racing improved? we have a single team completely dominating everyone else with the drivers and constructors championship fought out by hamilton and rosberg in the fastest cars while the rest of the field scrabble around like the keystone cops behind them for the rest of the points, and now with those god awfull engines the spectacle of all that has gone too its boring and uninteresting to watch.
 
I hear people talk about hearing tire squeal etc etc but im sorry, i watch F1 for a high revving howl of an engine as the drivers scream by me battling for position coming up to the next corner 2 or 3 abreast no one wanting to give up, if i want to hear squealing tires i could sit around my city centre or any of the shopping parks and listen to that anytime, its pathetic in my view.
 
F1 is and always has been a spectacle, an assault on the senses even, that was part of the appeal of goin to a circuit to watch a race. The racing was obviously the main focus but the noise and atmosphere created was absolutely unique. The feeling of sitting in the stand at the start of a race with all the cars waiting to go was simply amazing, the energy involved, the vibrations, the smells, the noise, everything came together to make a truly amazing and breathtaking spectacle that once experienced would NEVER be forgotten.
 
All we have today is a quiet brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm, theres absolutely no comparison at all and its an insult to call it F1 in my view.


You should try watching it.

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#3323 Sash1

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 06:38

But whenever the yellow flash of Corvette approached I did close my eyes and try to take every last sound and vibration in. Was brilliant.

 

I can imagine. It is not important if a Corvette is fast or not, the experience of seeing, hearing and feeling them in action is just ace. 



#3324 Henri Greuter

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:26

I can imagine. It is not important if a Corvette is fast or not, the experience of seeing, hearing and feeling them in action is just ace. 

 

 

Edit:

 

Of course I realize that there are indeed cars in existance that make enough noise and have a kind of sound that appeals to the "NoiseMustBeLoud and SoundMustBeGood"adepts over here and still are competitiive, serious competitiors, like the by so many over here hallowed Corvettes.

But still a question about your remark

 

End edit

 

 

 

 

Does this suggest that as worthless as a car is racingwise, it is good enough for you to enjoy at least the noise? (For as long is the thing runs?)

 

And to keep it within endurance racing since that is where the Corvette acts.

 

Like for example the Pagani Zonda of Hezemans&Co at Le Mans 2003

Or the 1990 Eagle GpC with a 10 liter (!!!!!) V8 that tried to qualify at Le Mans that year. (Settling for a capacity of 10 liters for an engine that could have been 11.5 liter if needed. And that in a year when fuel restrictions (Gp. C remember....) were still in use at Le Mans

 

Just to mention two "glorious" examples of the Dutch phrase "Veel geschreeuw maar weinig wol": to be translated literally as "Much screaming yet little wool" which means so much as "A lot of showings yet little achievements"

 

 

As far as I can remember the aim of racing was: I recall the main aim being something like: Being victorious over the other opponents.

But reading this thread over it seems that an number of (as it appears to me) the younger generation of race fans has a different opinion on that.

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 13 August 2014 - 08:30.


#3325 Sash1

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 09:19

 

Does this suggest that as worthless as a car is racingwise, it is good enough for you to enjoy at least the noise? (For as long is the thing runs?)

 

 

 

I am not sure. For me the sound is part of the experience. And a loud car at a track is more enjoyable for me. Because it gives the impression that the car is difficult to drive, at least for an average person like me.

So at Le Mans I enjoyed the sound of the Judd 5L V8 more than the Audi's, altough the Audi's were faster and won. Buth both were enjoyable to watch racing. I can sit for hours at the Dunlop chicane just to hear Ferrari's, Corvette's and Porsche GT cars shift down. 

And I can enjoy tractor pulling, not to see who pulls furthest or builds the prettiest tractor, but just to see, hear and feel the power of the engines used.
MotoGP bikes have an extra edge over WSBK bikes because of the unrestricted noise level. The performance is quite close over a lap, but the MotoGP bikes are more enjoyable to watch, even in the times when the racing was not so close.

On the street I like the old Ducati's more, because the lower revs give a prettier sound. I also love old racing bikes. They don't have to be racing, just to hear them run is a joy. And we used to go to WRC a lot when I had more time. You do not see much of the actual racing, but to hear such cars go trough the forests is fantastic. You can hear what they do for quite some time, but you only see the car for a few seconds. It is the noise that makes it worth to sit at stages just to see your favourite car for a short moment.

So yes, maybe I am sound orientated. But noise is not 'pretty' because it is noisy. Some things sound appaling, whatever the level of the noise.



#3326 Sash1

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 09:24

 

As far as I can remember the aim of racing was: I recall the main aim being something like: Being victorious over the other opponents.

 

 

That is the aim of a racing team and a racing driver. When I go karting (outdoor only) my only aim is to win as well. I do not care what sound my kart makes, what kind of engine is in it, who makes the tires, if I run away or have to fight for it etc. The only aim is to beat the opponent (not that I am any good at that). As a spectator I am sure someone will be victorious and want to be entertained in more ways. Maybe it is different if someone is a fan of a particular driver or team. I am not. 



#3327 Clatter

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 09:59

I am not sure. For me the sound is part of the experience. And a loud car at a track is more enjoyable for me. Because it gives the impression that the car is difficult to drive, at least for an average person like me.

So at Le Mans I enjoyed the sound of the Judd 5L V8 more than the Audi's, altough the Audi's were faster and won. Buth both were enjoyable to watch racing. I can sit for hours at the Dunlop chicane just to hear Ferrari's, Corvette's and Porsche GT cars shift down. 

And I can enjoy tractor pulling, not to see who pulls furthest or builds the prettiest tractor, but just to see, hear and feel the power of the engines used.
MotoGP bikes have an extra edge over WSBK bikes because of the unrestricted noise level. The performance is quite close over a lap, but the MotoGP bikes are more enjoyable to watch, even in the times when the racing was not so close.

On the street I like the old Ducati's more, because the lower revs give a prettier sound. I also love old racing bikes. They don't have to be racing, just to hear them run is a joy. And we used to go to WRC a lot when I had more time. You do not see much of the actual racing, but to hear such cars go trough the forests is fantastic. You can hear what they do for quite some time, but you only see the car for a few seconds. It is the noise that makes it worth to sit at stages just to see your favourite car for a short moment.

So yes, maybe I am sound orientated. But noise is not 'pretty' because it is noisy. Some things sound appaling, whatever the level of the noise.

Seriously? You equate noise to how difficult a car is to drive?



#3328 CoolBreeze

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 10:02

Montoya voiced his opinion about the sounds again..



#3329 Henri Greuter

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 10:22

Seriously? You equate noise to how difficult a car is to drive?

 

 

In addition to that remark an example:

 

A fairly silent car of the past was the Cummins Turbo Diesel of 1952 at Indy. It was more silent than the Offies and Novis it ran against that year. But the car had a turbo lag of anything up to 5 to 10 seconds (!) and it took driver Freddie Agabashian quite some learning to find out how to drive his car so that he had the power available at the time he  needed it: coming out of the turns..

 

 

@Sash1,

 

I think I understand some of the sentiments in your answers on my question. Thanks for taking the time to answer them by the way.

But to me the noise level or sound character isn´t a yardstick if a car is driven fast.

 

I´ve been at Le Mans in 1997 and I still have fond memories of the two Ferrari 333SP´s that ran there. Nicest sounds of all cars, better that that of the winning Jost-Porsche and the 911GT1's but they were not up with the fastest.

Same went for the Jaguar V12 powered Lister Storm. Nice yet very loud (too loud for me) but they were slow and unreliable. 

And I still get the feelings and symptoms of being scared when thinking about the Panoz Esperante GT1s that ran there as well. Loud beyond belief but nowhere fast enough to keep up with the leaders. Those cars were absolutely frightening for me.

I have never heard an LMP Audi Diesel in real by the way.

For me, If a car isn't loud yet the hight of the sound dropps of rapidly when disappearing from you after heading for you, loud or not, that tells me more than enough if a car was driven fast or not. I don't need it to be loud to recognize if a car is driven fast and at the limit.

 

BTW if it comes to old engines: I've had the pleasure to hear some 1910-1912 built cars at Indy in 2011. Something entirely differnt that the 19000 rpm screamers so missed by many over here. Hearing those `Edwardian Age`  monsters is truly something else.

 

 

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 13 August 2014 - 10:25.


#3330 LBDN

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 21:08

I'm interested to see what the ticket sales will be like for Silverstone next year. I know people expected this years sales to be down but to be honest i still expected sales to remain high this year as the British fans i still expected to be intrigued enough to still attend this year to see what the sound was actually like.

 

But after this year i will be interested to see how many return for next year.  I appreciate the engine sound isn't everything but it is one of many factors that provides a wow factor to an F1 event. You kind of need the wow factor to remain to justify the cost of the tickets.



#3331 scheivlak

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 21:14

Montoya voiced his opinion about the sounds again..

Yep, a completely predictable exhibit of the cognitive dissonance complex.



#3332 Sash1

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 07:01

Seriously? You equate noise to how difficult a car is to drive?

 

No, I said it gives the impression. And that is a kind of spectator entertainment factor that I like. I know that the noise level does not equal speed.