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Horrible 2014 sound [merged]


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#3701 scolbourne

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 06:33

Having a combined grid of hybrids and NA V8s ,V10s or V12s. I would like to add rotarys but expect this would not happen. The poorer teams use the NA engines (choose the cylinder number but no kers).

Limit fuel or capacity for the NA engines to try to equalise performance with the hybrids.

 

This would result in at least a few of the grid sounding impressive.  Fairer racing and will keep costs under control.

It will also show how economical the hybrids are



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#3702 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 10:21

Having a combined grid of hybrids and NA V8s ,V10s or V12s. I would like to add rotarys but expect this would not happen. The poorer teams use the NA engines (choose the cylinder number but no kers).

Limit fuel or capacity for the NA engines to try to equalise performance with the hybrids.

 

This would result in at least a few of the grid sounding impressive.  Fairer racing and will keep costs under control.

It will also show how economical the hybrids are

 

This would result in at least a few of the grid sounding impressive? 

Depends on how competitive these cars can be. If hybrids are the better option to be competitive, then what sense makes it to race on and make some noise for the noise adepts yet being beaten by the silent cars?

Participants race to win, not to make loud noise or a nice sound.

 

 

 

Henri



#3703 mzvztag

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 10:25

I don't see the problem with the sound. In the 1980s we had turbo engines, they probably sounded similar to the today's ones and nobody complained.

I believe that today's public got spoiled by the V12/V10/V8 sound of the past 25 years but then I wonder how come that the 1980s public did not get spoiled by the atmospheric engines used by 1985. Probably because the transition was gradual, we had mixed grids for a few years until the turbos fully took over.


Edited by mzvztag, 14 November 2014 - 10:25.


#3704 Tourgott

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 10:53

I don't see the problem with the sound. In the 1980s we had turbo engines, they probably sounded similar to the today's ones and nobody complained.

 

Seriously? Ever heard them? They sounded nothing like today's ones.



#3705 superden

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 10:56

I grew up with the turbo sound back in the 80's, so the current generation doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, the V10/12 era was pretty fantastic. However, that's a subjective view (as they all are) and the sound alone, even if it did bother me, wouldn't stop me watching an entire category.

Compared to the sh*tstorm F1 is sailing into, the sound made by the engines is completely irrelevant. I can't believe people are still going on about this in the current climate. Fix the serious problems first, then look at the minor issues.

Edited by superden, 14 November 2014 - 10:56.


#3706 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 12:29

I don't see the problem with the sound. In the 1980s we had turbo engines, they probably sounded similar to the today's ones and nobody complained.

I believe that today's public got spoiled by the V12/V10/V8 sound of the past 25 years but then I wonder how come that the 1980s public did not get spoiled by the atmospheric engines used by 1985. Probably because the transition was gradual, we had mixed grids for a few years until the turbos fully took over.

 

Believe me: the turbo engines of the 80's sounded better.

The big difference is that they had two turbos, one for each back of cylinders. So you had two exhausts and two pop-off valve outlets, one of each on each side of the car. The current cars have one big tube in the center of the car.

I am no specialist in physics and sound waves but I recall from my physics lessons that when you combine waves (light, sound) that the resulting wave can be entirely different.

Maybe something like that is happening here as well, combining all the soundwaves into one turbo first and then into one exhaust. is there a soundwave specialist among us who can add something to this. Either make my theory (and me   ;)  ) look rediculous or tell mare about it?

 

As for your theory that the public got spoiled over the years, I think that could indeed be the case.

But the atmo engines used in 1985, that were a few races by Tyrrell with a 3 liter Cosworth. No atmos races in 1986 and from 1987 an the 3.5 liters were phased in. The majoritynof them also being Cosworths and the occasional Judd's. the moment that all noise hell really broke loose was when in 1989 you got the newly desegined Post-DFV era atmo engines, including the V10s by Honda and Renault. The first generation of the screamers came along in 1989 but the didn't revv abouve 15000 rpm initially, leta alone the 20000 of the last V10s..

Like you stated, it happened gradually. I wonder if the most staunch supporters of the 2004/2005 V10s and the latest V8s would be that excited about the 1989 V10 and V8 engiens of the day. ther revved slower, thus screamed less and were not as painfully loud as the latest of the breed.

I felt the 1989/1990 breed of engines to be more musical. because of having a somewhat longer stroke, they had more torques and a larger useful rev band thus were more driveable. The 19000 rpm generation had so little torque at lower revs that they coudn't even idle at the rev levels of the past anymore, hence had a narrow useful rev band thus did nothing else but scream because of the necessary high revs to prevent stalling.

 

 

Edit,

As for why there was no complains about less noise with the advance of the turbos in the early 80s. I don't know exactly why. But I do recall from that time that many liked the interest it caused, turbo was a hype at that time, you knew the cars who had such engines were more powerful and faster, And engine management wasn't that well as in later years so in the early years of the turbos you could soe some fantastic firworks coming from the tail. Spectacular to watch! it was a trill to sit near the end of a straight and see the cars slowing down and disappear in the turn.

But if these engines had come at the expense of atmos' that sounded similar the the last V8's and were as noisy, I honestly have no idea what the reactions of the public at large would have been then. The fans of that time were entirely different at that age that the current fans are at their current age.

End edit

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 14 November 2014 - 12:37.


#3707 mtknot

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 14:26

Believe me: the turbo engines of the 80's sounded better.

The big difference is that they had two turbos, one for each back of cylinders. So you had two exhausts and two pop-off valve outlets, one of each on each side of the car. The current cars have one big tube in the center of the car.

I am no specialist in physics and sound waves but I recall from my physics lessons that when you combine waves (light, sound) that the resulting wave can be entirely different.

Maybe something like that is happening here as well, combining all the soundwaves into one turbo first and then into one exhaust. is there a soundwave specialist among us who can add something to this. Either make my theory (and me   ;)  ) look rediculous or tell mare about it?

 

 

Henri

Apart from the single bank I4s the twin turbo V6s do sound very different of the 80s. Check the Indy DW12 for an almost exact sounding engine/layout. Realistically absolutely nothing sounds like the V6Ts in these F1 cars, probably because of both pipe design (the log collector) and the advances in engine technology - bent on efficiency. 

Unfortunately once electro-hydraulic valves become legal as part of increasing efficiency (apparently 30% more efficiency and 30% more power, and I'd assume lower cost because of its relative simplicity), we'll lose a substantial amount of noise. Also it doesn't help that these engines run very, very lean in comparison to anything before them - 100kg/hr max is very lean in contrast to the the turbo cars of the 80s. 



#3708 mtknot

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 14:27

P

 

Seriously? Ever heard them? They sounded nothing like today's ones.

Only the V6Ts with single turbos sound like them. 



#3709 morrino

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 15:46

Only the V6Ts with single turbos sound like them. 

That's correct.

But I think there was just only one single turbo V6 due to the massive turbolag, and that was the first F1 turbo ever: Renault RS01.



#3710 chipmcdonald

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 16:53

https://www.youtube....h?v=WtR3ENTAqzY

 

1997 Arrows, Car used by Damon Hill.

 

Take a current F1 engine and do the same and you will not get the same reactions from people around.

 

 Right on....

 

 According to some people here, those people must be just idiots.


Edited by chipmcdonald, 14 November 2014 - 16:54.


#3711 Wuzak

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 02:41

One of teh big differences between today's engines and the turbos of the '80s is the MGUH. Since this can be used to eliminate lag and also extract energy from the exhaust the turbine is bigger and the wastegates used less. In the old cars a significant portion of the exhaust bypassed the turbo completely, which may have helped them be louder.



#3712 Scotracer

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 12:15

Especially on decel/overrun. The modern cars are basically silent then.

#3713 Ilmor

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:11

The decibels will evolve back upwards over the next few years. 



#3714 Turboflame

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:35

I think the engines of the 70's sounded the best. The steel springs, combined with the relatively highreving nature, created a sound that was loud but which had the mechanical rawness (you actually heard what was going on inside the engine) as well. The first NA-engines with pneumatic valves (1989-1995) still sounded ok. But from above 15 000 rpm the sound, athough very lound, just became too monotone because they're reving so fast. Now with the currect turbos with lower rpm i think they have more character, you can hear more what's going on inside the engine than with the monotone scream of the V10's and V8's.


Edited by Turboflame, 15 November 2014 - 13:42.


#3715 chipmcdonald

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 14:22

The decibels will evolve back upwards over the next few years. 

 

 There is a limited amount of energy allowed into the system, by default it cannot get louder without losing efficiency.


Edited by chipmcdonald, 15 November 2014 - 14:25.


#3716 BRG

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 16:04

 There is a limited amount of energy allowed into the system, by default it cannot get louder without losing efficiency.

Indeed.  In fact, as they develop the engines to get yet more energy out of that 100kg of gasoline, they will get quieter.



#3717 Dan333SP

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 17:49

Just popping in to share a real F1 turbo sound. Start at 12:50.

 


Edited by Dan333SP, 15 November 2014 - 17:50.


#3718 Wifey

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 18:07

you know why that sounds good? Because the commentators know when to stop talking, thats the problem now sky and bbc just rabbit on for thw sake of it!

The new engines sound good in person just shite on tv

#3719 Tourgott

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 18:17

Just popping in to share a real F1 turbo sound. Start at 12:50.

 

 

I also don't like that sound but at least you can hear and "feel" the power these cars had. This is what today is completely missing.



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#3720 Dan333SP

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 20:06

I also don't like that sound but at least you can hear and "feel" the power these cars had. This is what today is completely missing.


Exactly. The sound still isn't as nice as a V10, but you can clearly see how challenging to drive those cars are with manual gearboxes and impossible amounts of power. The downshifting with popping and flames is exciting.

#3721 Henri Greuter

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 20:22

Exactly. The sound still isn't as nice as a V10, but you can clearly see how challenging to drive those cars are with manual gearboxes and impossible amounts of power. The downshifting with popping and flames is exciting.

 

 

Powerwise you did indeed show one of the two most spectacular engines of the era. For a more spectacular sound howevere nou need to find a V6 of that era, thus either the Honda or the Renault because they were the most powerful of the V6 engines.

 

Henri



#3722 Henri Greuter

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 20:54

I also don't like that sound but at least you can hear and "feel" the power these cars had. This is what today is completely missing.

 

Maybe it becomes also clear by now that it becomes even more necessary to make sure the current cars lose lots of downforce and put them on much less efficient tires to make them as difficult to drive as they were back then.

 

Henri



#3723 Boing Ball

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 21:15

This video gives a good impression of the 1980s turbos: http://www.youtube.c...nFPZ-kI&t=5m28s Very different to what we have now.



#3724 Risil

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 21:18

The fans of that time were entirely different at that age that the current fans are at their current age.

 

Ain't that the truth!


Edited by Risil, 15 November 2014 - 21:18.


#3725 Dan333SP

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 22:01

you know why that sounds good? Because the commentators know when to stop talking, thats the problem now sky and bbc just rabbit on for thw sake of it!

The new engines sound good in person just shite on tv

 

As someone that has seen the 2014 cars in person (and just about every era of other F1 cars dating back to the 60s, either in a real GP or in historic races), I can honestly say that this, in my opinion, is not true. I think they sound exactly the same in person as they do on TV. The only difference is that you get more of the whistles and whines emanating from the ERS/hybrid systems, particularly the Renault, but if anything those noises make the engines less pleasant to me.

 

 

Powerwise you did indeed show one of the two most spectacular engines of the era. For a more spectacular sound howevere nou need to find a V6 of that era, thus either the Honda or the Renault because they were the most powerful of the V6 engines.

 

Henri

 

The video starts with Mansell in his Williams/Honda, so it gives you a good idea of the V6 sound. Personally, I preferred the BMW 4 cylinder of that era. I haven't found any good videos of the Alfa Romeo turbo, which I believe was an 8 cylinder motor. That may be interesting.



#3726 Henri Greuter

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 10:52

As someone that has seen the 2014 cars in person (and just about every era of other F1 cars dating back to the 60s, either in a real GP or in historic races), I can honestly say that this, in my opinion, is not true. I think they sound exactly the same in person as they do on TV. The only difference is that you get more of the whistles and whines emanating from the ERS/hybrid systems, particularly the Renault, but if anything those noises make the engines less pleasant to me.

 

 

 

The video starts with Mansell in his Williams/Honda, so it gives you a good idea of the V6 sound. Personally, I preferred the BMW 4 cylinder of that era. I haven't found any good videos of the Alfa Romeo turbo, which I believe was an 8 cylinder motor. That may be interesting.

 

 

 

Alfa was indeed a V8. But to me it never sounded great compared with the V6's. it was way less powerful than the V6s and Bimmers and you could `hear` it to be a wrong engine option. At least with the fuel consumption limits fron 1984 on.

Once Alfa retired them and Osella used them it was of course a done deal.

 

 

Henri

 

Henri



#3727 Morbus

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:38

Seriously? Ever heard them? They sounded nothing like today's ones.

Eaxtly. I've heard one in the flesh at full chap and it sounds impressive. They are certainly not as load as a V12 though.



#3728 Turboflame

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 13:05

They definetely sounded more 'agressive/menacing', where as the current turbos rather sound 'funny'.



#3729 tmekt

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 14:03

Listening to the pre-2006 onboards only give me a headache to be honest. I didn't experience them live but V8s I did and other than forcing me to use earplugs they didn't affect my life much.

I'd love to hear the new ones live as well so they definitely haven't killed my interest yet. Maybe I'm insane.

#3730 SenorSjon

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 14:58

Just popping in to share a real F1 turbo sound. Start at 12:50.

 

 

 

It does help it has big fat tires, width and you can see the driver at work. With the menacing shifting back then, current day F1 looks like an operating theatre.


Edited by SenorSjon, 16 November 2014 - 14:59.


#3731 chipmcdonald

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 00:44

Here is a video that has absolutely no Formula 1 content at all, yet I believe there is more "Formula 1" in this video than the present day cars.  I await comments like "that's louder than any F1 car" and "you're just ruining your hearing", etc.. For these "car fans" I suggest you just don't click on this video - everyone else may find this "exciting" and dare I say it, "stimulating":

 

http://youtu.be/3SH5953iQ6w



#3732 Sash1

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 07:53

Jet engines are fun at tractor pulling, altough they don't seem to be the best solution at all. Imho they have nothing to do with F1 and once revved up the constant whine is unbearable. The only cool thing about jet engines is them revving up from idle and winding down again. We had a test at our place of a mini jet engine for blow drying (102 bhp). It sounded cool idling, but once it started to rev up even that micro turbine tried to rip my ears apart at 100.000 rpm. 



#3733 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:15

Here is a video that has absolutely no Formula 1 content at all, yet I believe there is more "Formula 1" in this video than the present day cars.  I await comments like "that's louder than any F1 car" and "you're just ruining your hearing", etc.. For these "car fans" I suggest you just don't click on this video - everyone else may find this "exciting" and dare I say it, "stimulating":

 

http://youtu.be/3SH5953iQ6w

 

 

EDIT:  on second thoughts: deleted: Too provocative, offending, and too personal.

 

 

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 November 2014 - 10:20.


#3734 Alexis*27

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:58

I like F1 just as much as ever, on TV.

 

But I wouldn't bother going to see them live now. I would just be disappointed.

 

I wonder how many others think this and how many people who went to a track this year won't attend next year?



#3735 Ellios

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 13:10

V12 loveliness

 



#3736 John Player

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 14:35



#3737 SanDiegoGo

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 15:17

you know why that sounds good? Because the commentators know when to stop talking, thats the problem now sky and bbc just rabbit on for thw sake of it!

The new engines sound good in person just shite on tv

 

 

which is a conscious effort by FOM. bernie is actively trying to devalue F1.



#3738 Jon83

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 15:29

I watched a couple of youtube videos from Monza this year.

 

Sounded rubbish on them as well.



#3739 chumma

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 20:26

My favourite sounding car is a toss up between the honda v12 in the mp4/6 and the mp4/15 and 16, the supersonic sound of that McLaren from 2000 and 2001 (before dirty traction control) was really something else, only wish i could have heard it live.

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#3740 AustinF1

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 21:57

I like F1 just as much as ever, on TV.

 

But I wouldn't bother going to see them live now. I would just be disappointed.

 

I wonder how many others think this and how many people who went to a track this year won't attend next year?

I agree. I may go next year to Mexico City, but it would be in spite of the new engine sound. 

 

I've been to 4 GPs, I live in Austin, and I went to that race this year as well. The main reason to go to the race is to soak up all the sights, smells, and sounds. The sound is a major part of that, imho, and it's just not there any longer for me. My first GP in Montreal, I was walking across the bridge when FP 3 began and I could hear the sounds ricocheting around in the trees. It's something I'll never forget. Then on the way to my hairpin seats, I stopped by the braking zone at the end of that straight to hear the downshifts. Nothing short of breathtaking. The way you could feel those engines in your chest, and the violence of the noises, they were otherworldly.

 

No longer.

 

ETA: For me it's not just about sound volume, either. The Ferrari & Porsche sportscars in the support races in Austin were no louder than the F1 cars, but they sounded so much better it was just sad. I think someone posted video of an older F1 V6 turbo earlier in this thread as well. That car sounded fantastic.


Edited by AustinF1, 21 November 2014 - 23:38.


#3741 nonobaddog

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 23:33

My favourite sounding car is a toss up between the honda v12 in the mp4/6 and the mp4/15 and 16, the supersonic sound of that McLaren from 2000 and 2001 (before dirty traction control) was really something else, only wish i could have heard it live.

 

I was fortunate enough to see the McLaren MP4-15 live in 2000 and the MP4-16 live in 2001 at Indianapolis.  
 
My favorite driver at the time was Mika Hakkinen.  In 2001 I was sitting in the main grandstand actually in front of the front row seats.  That is where they put the wheelchairs and I was there helping a friend who has been in a wheelchair since a bad day in Vietnam.  We were directly across from Mika's car in fourth position.  This was pure luck since Mika had actually qualified second but got penalized back to fourth and I did not know this until they formed up on the grid.  And then Mika went on to win the race - perfect.  
 
The sound when the lights went out was singularly astonishing.  The whole event was spectacular, thanks in part to the V10's.
 
This is my favorite racing weekend ever.  I thank God I was there.  The way things have gone to the crapper lately I don't think anyone will ever have a chance to witness a Formula 1 spectacle like that again.


#3742 chipmcdonald

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 03:15

I agree. I may go next year to Mexico City, but it would be in spite of the new engine sound. 
 
My first GP in Montreal, I was walking across the bridge when FP 3 began and I could hear the sounds ricocheting around in the trees. It's something I'll never forget. Then on the way to my hairpin seats, I stopped by the braking zone at the end of that straight to hear the downshifts. Nothing short of breathtaking.

 
 I was late getting to the track on a saturday morning, you could hear the cars on the island, and traversing from one end to the other - fantastic.  And right here...:

www.youtube.com/embed/lNItpPRLMEU

Edited by chipmcdonald, 22 November 2014 - 03:16.