30 replies to this topic

[f1steveuk]

I have read from three different sources that when Ronnie arrived in South America, at the begining of the 1975 F1 season, supposedly with a contract of the full year with Lotus, he arrived to be told he was being variably (depending on which version you read) swapped/replaced by Tom Pryce.


Ronnie has been quoted about the whole affair in one version, but not the other two, which have various different aspects to the story, but I can find no comfirmation from the Shadow/Pryce perspective.

Was there such an agreement, or was Chapman playing a game with his "investment" in order to get John Player to cough up more money (which they did), and it partially back fired? I should have asked Peter Warr about it when I had the chance, and it was obvious he had a lot of time for Ronnie, so maybe he wouldn't have told me the whole story.

[Michael Ferner]

There definitely was a lot of talk in the rumour sections of various magazines, and it looked for a time like more than just a possibility. Alas, it was a bit before my time (I was only eight), and most of what I "know" comes from reading those old magazines...

[arttidesco]

DSJ reported on page 124 of Motor Sport Feb 1975 '..., but there was some "cloak and dagger" stuff going on with Team Lotus to trade the number two UOP driver, Tom Pryce, for Ronnie Peterson , with a suitable cash adjustment.'

Edited by arttidesco, 28 July 2013 - 16:52.

[f1steveuk]

DSJ reported on page 124 of Motor Sport Feb 1975 '..., but there was some "cloak and dagger" stuff going on with Team Lotus to trade the number two UOP driver, Tom Pryce, for Ronnie Peterson , with a suitable cash adjustment.'

I can't see that cash adjustment being enough to keep Lotus going, or that Tom's arrival would persuade John Player to get their cheque books out again. That's why I wondered if Chapman's bluff was called to some degree?

That's why I have been deliberately coy as to what I have read, and where I read it! Just seems like there's more to it?

[Tim Murray]

There's some info from the David Tremayne book in this earlier thread:

Peterson-Pyce Lotus-Shadow swap 1975

Here's the relevant post:

Peterson was unhappy at Lotus. The 76 had been a failure, and it would be a while before its replacement was ready, leaving the team forced to continue running the antique 72s. In addition, John Player had cut back their support to the team due to the economic situation, so Chapman was trying to reduce the amount he paid his drivers. Don Nichols was keen to lure Ronnie to Shadow, and Ronnie was a good friend of Shadow’s Alan Rees. The deal would thus have apparently suited everyone – Chapman would have got a cheaper driver, and Shadow would have got their man. In the end the deal was scuppered by Shadow’s main sponsor, UOP, when its president John Logan declined to put the final rubber stamp on the deal.

(Main source: The Lost Generation by David Tremayne)

Edited by Tim Murray, 28 July 2013 - 20:20.

[hogstar]

I thought that Peterson's name was on one of the Shadow cars in Brazil? If true, the deal was scuppered very late in the day.

Quite who would of benefited from the swap is unclear, apart from the obvious scenario of two talented drivers not being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Shadow could of gone on to greater things with Peterson on board and may not lead to UOP bailing out and the eventual formation of Arrows in 1978. On the other hand, Pryces could of been finished as Lotus wasn't the place to be in 1975, but if he would of been allowed to stick around, he would of had the joys of the Lotus 78 and 79 to play with.

[beighes]

I was given a bit of info on 2 subjects from "Himself", during a conversation about Peterson & the never finished (built?) Shadow Indy car. Don said that they had poured & fitted a seat for Peterson. The conversation goes back 20+ years, so details are a bit misty. I seem to recall something said about one of the sponsors nixed the deal............I want to say it was JP.

[f1steveuk]

I have known DJT for some time. and I felt that when this came up in a chat with him a few years ago, that maybe his source for the "Lost Generation" hadn't been totally open, shall we say.

One of the sources I haven't as yet quoted says;

"it was decided that although Ronnie would be fast, he always was, there was no way he could develop the car, he just drove around problems, and we needed a proven development driver, we needed a winner too, but we needed someone who, if his car broke, our number two had the same chance"

Which might suggest the plug being pulled by Shadow management or UOP, but another document hints at Chapman trying to get John Player to cough up more money as otherwise "I'll have to let Ronnie go", hence why I wondered if his bluff was called, and if a seat had been made, how far he was prepared tp let it go?

[Twin Window]

Look what I've found!

[Gary C]

blimey!! 

[funformula]

Look what I've found!

 

Ronnie Peterson is sitting in a Shadow DN1, so the picture must have been taken in 1973.

[Twin Window]

Hmmm...

Well, I agree that upon closer scrutiny it's not a DN5. But neither is it a DN1.

Looks more like a DN3 from 1974 to me, which is strange. Maybe the discussions began earlier than previously thought? Or someone had their dates wrong somewhere down the line.

Interesting, and worthy of a bit of digging...

[opplock]

Mystery solved? Autocourse shows the Shadows entries for 1975 Argentine and Brazilian GPs to be a DN5 for Jarier and a DN3B for Pryce. 

[Twin Window]

Mystery solved? Autocourse shows the Shadows entries for 1975 Argentine and Brazilian GPs to be a DN5 for Jarier and a DN3B for Pryce.

That could indeed explain it! Kudos, oppo.

[funformula]

Hmmm...

Well, I agree that upon closer scrutiny it's not a DN5. But neither is it a DN1.

Looks more like a DN3 from 1974 to me, which is strange. Maybe the discussions began earlier than previously thought? Or someone had their dates wrong somewhere down the line.

Interesting, and worthy of a bit of digging...

 

It might be indeed a DN3B

 

Another picture of Peterson sitting in the Shadow in Brazil 1975 here:

http://f1nostalgia.b...-ai-ronnie.html

 

Maybe someone can translate it

[f1steveuk]

Curious! Good find Stuart, very good find! I shall tackle my source with a bit more venom!!

[opplock]

That could indeed explain it! Kudos, oppo.

Glad to be of help. Many teams at that time introduced new cars at the start of the European season.

[PeterElleray]

These photos were apparently circulating amongst the journalists at Interlagos prior to, or during the 1975 Brazilian GP meeting as reported at the time by Pete Lyons in his Brazilian GP report . They appeared in the local press which is where the internet images appear to derive from.  

 

The car is Pryce's DN3B, and the caption suggests that the seat fitting is taking place in the Interlagos pit garages. That being the case this must have been in the week prior to the race itself, once the freight had arrived from Argentina, as  Lyons reports the press photos being printed on the Wednesday before official practice.

 

Attending to Ronnie are Alan Rees, Pete Kerr, and Geoff the truckie (apologies Geoff) who would all end up at Arrows some years later, along with Don Nicols, who, er, would not...

 

Reecy and Pete were very close to Ronnie after his March days (first time around) and one can imagine he must have been feeling some 'deja-vu' at the time. I believe things got as far as a seat being made and Ronnie's name stencilled onto the cockpit surround before the deal fell through.

 

Interesting that Ronnie was to drive the (older) DN3 rather than the new DN5 which Jarier had already put onto the pole in Argentina.. Never quite got my head around that one... 

 

Peter

[funformula]

Interesting that Ronnie was to drive the (older) DN3 rather than the new DN5 which Jarier had already put onto the pole in Argentina.. Never quite got my head around that one... 

 

 

 

 Maybe because Jarier had a contract securing him first hand on the new car?

[PeterElleray]

 Maybe because Jarier had a contract securing him first hand on the new car?

doubt jpj was in that sort of bargaining posittion in 1974/5 but none us really know. Reecy will - anyone in contact with him?

 

Peter

[funformula]

doubt jpj was in that sort of bargaining posittion in 1974/5 but none us really know. Reecy will - anyone in contact with him?

 

Peter

 

Maybe the Shadow Team management just don´t wanted to cause too much hassle in switching Jarier in the old car (and maybe demotivating him as a result) for an eventual Peterson/Pryce swap that may not become true in the end. Jarier was in good form at the two opening races taking two pole positions.

Peterson was meant to replace Pryce so the logical choice was to put him in his car. Anyway the second DN5 was scheduled to be ready for the next race.

[DN5]

The Peter Warr book confirms the story: 'In the end Shadow and its owner Don Nichols were not prepared to pay a premium to Team Lotus for the release of Ronnieand, in spite of the talks having progressed to the point where Ronnie himself let slip in Brasil that "he was now a Shadow driver", the deal undid itself at the eleventh hour.'

 

Geoff

[Mohican]

I remember this episode well; it was widely reported that the swap was taking place.

Consider the relative positions at the time: Jarier and (particularly) Pryce were young and inexperienced, if highly rated for potential - Jarier won the European F2 title in 1973, for instance. And of course did very well in qualifying the DN5 on pole for the first two races in '75.

Also, remember that Shadow was a team on the up, and supposedly well-funded by UOP; their real tragedy was losing Peter Revson at Kyalami early the previous year.

Lotus, on the other hand, were not doing well; the 1974 car was a flop, and going into 1975 they had two probably quite expensive drivers (Peterson and Ickx) having to fall back on the 72 which by then was six years old. I have no recollection of reports re JPS cutting back, but am not surprised given the state of the UK economy at the time.

Ickx left Lotus later that year, leaving the second car to be driven by Henton and Crawford IIRC. The following year Ronnie jumped ship & was replaced by Gunnar Nilsson - with Bob Evans (!) in the second car. Mario Andretti only came on board after the collapse of Vel's Parnelli after the US GP West at Long Beach.

Good days. Extraordinary to have two US GPs back then. And I still think that Ronnie in a Shadow DN5 would have been worth watching - but then he always was.

[LittleChris]

Ickx left Lotus later that year, leaving the second car to be driven by Henton and Crawford IIRC.

Don't forget Wattie at the 'Ring

[f1steveuk]

Well, my source was at one time sponsorship director for Rothmans, and before that John Player, and he is quite certain that the money JPS had ear marked for Lotus for 1975 was less than half of 1974!!

[D-Type]

So, we have:

 

Lotus trying to extract more money from their sponsors "We need the money to keep Ronnie and get results"

Lotus being on the receiving end of a budget cut and in strict financial terms not averse to receiving a large transfer payment for Ronnie's contract

Shadow trying to extract more money from their sponsors "We need the money to get Ronnie and get results"

Shadow hoping that having a competitive Ronnie on board might enable them to get better treatment from suppliers, particularly Goodyear

Both sets of sponsors wanting a return for their sponsorship

Ronnie being unhappy with Lotus's competitiveness

Ronnie simply trying to get a better deal out of Chapman

Ronnie's [deserved] reputation for being fast, capable of driving around any car's problems, but consequently not being a good development driver who could optimize a car.

 

The truth is in there somewhere

[MCS]

I find it very difficult to believe that Tom Pryce wasn't asked about all of this - in fact, I would suggest he most certainly was. So why have we never heard his side of the story?  Odd, very odd.

 

And whilst I agree with the logic of the last two posts from Regazzoni and Duncan, there may actually be a defining photographic piece somewhere, unless I am dreaming.  Long before the wonders of Photoshop and similar software, I am about 90% certain I saw a black and white picture of a Shadow cockpit surround with the word "Ronnie Peterson" or, even "Peterson" on it once upon a time.

 

Twinny...?

[charles r]

I find it very difficult to believe that Tom Pryce wasn't asked about all of this - in fact, I would suggest he most certainly was. So why have we never heard his side of the story?  Odd, very odd.

 

And whilst I agree with the logic of the last two posts from Regazzoni and Duncan, there may actually be a defining photographic piece somewhere, unless I am dreaming.  Long before the wonders of Photoshop and similar software, I am about 90% certain I saw a black and white picture of a Shadow cockpit surround with the word "Ronnie Peterson" or, even "Peterson" on it once upon a time.

 

Twinny...?

Just wondering whether any photographic evidence ever came to light?

[MCS]

There are pictures taken from the front in a pit garage if you do a general search, but I can't find the side-on shot that I am sure is still in my mind's eye.  The "Peterson" lettering was white and quite large, maybe three inches tall.

 

Unless of course I am dreaming!

[f1steveuk]

The photo's were posted earlier in the thread. Having said that two pictures of Ronnie in the Shadow, and his name on the cockpit, but nothing of Pryce in a Lotus. Make of that what you will!!! Personally, I can think of no reason on earth why Tom would want to go to Lotus, plus he was, in his own words, very very happy at Shadow. 

[opplock]

 Personally, I can think of no reason on earth why Tom would want to go to Lotus, plus he was, in his own words, very very happy at Shadow. 

 

The proposed driver swap is discussed at length in Chapter 13 of The Lost Generation. Tom Pryce is quoted as saying "I don't really want to go. I like everyone here". 

 

In the same chapter:

 

Chapman told the media that Tom Pryce had visited Lotus and "may be in our car this weekend in Brazil". 

 

Alan Rees claimed that the deal was vetoed by John Logan, Preident of UOP "at the last minute". Logan hadn't been told. 

 

"Sharp-eyed journalists spotted a Shadow DN5 with Peterson's name on the cockpit sides" at Interlagos.