Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 3 votes

Mid season form


  • Please log in to reply
129 replies to this topic

Poll: Mid season form (306 member(s) have cast votes)

Which driver performed best so far this season?

  1. Vettel (144 votes [47.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.06%

  2. Webber (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  3. Alonso (8 votes [2.61%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.61%

  4. Massa (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Button (3 votes [0.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.98%

  6. Pérez (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. Räikkönen (66 votes [21.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.57%

  8. Grosjean (3 votes [0.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.98%

  9. Rosberg (3 votes [0.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.98%

  10. Hamilton (61 votes [19.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.93%

  11. Hülkenberg (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  12. Gutiérrez (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  13. Maldonado (3 votes [0.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.98%

  14. Bottas (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  15. di Resta (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  16. Ricciardo (2 votes [0.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.65%

  17. Sutil (3 votes [0.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.98%

  18. Vergne (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. Pic (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  20. Bianchi (4 votes [1.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.31%

Which car has been the fastest so far this season?

  1. Red Bull (206 votes [67.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.32%

  2. Ferrari (6 votes [1.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.96%

  3. Mercedes (84 votes [27.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.45%

  4. McLaren (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Lotus (3 votes [0.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.98%

  6. Force India (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. Toro Rosso (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Sauber (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. Williams (2 votes [0.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.65%

  10. Caterham (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  11. Marussia (4 votes [1.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.31%

Which team has performed better?

  1. Red Bull (205 votes [66.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.99%

  2. Ferrari (5 votes [1.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.63%

  3. McLaren (2 votes [0.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.65%

  4. Mercedes (60 votes [19.61%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.61%

  5. Lotus (24 votes [7.84%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.84%

  6. Sauber (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. Williams (2 votes [0.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.65%

  8. Toro Rosso (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  9. Force India (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  10. Caterham (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  11. Marussia (5 votes [1.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.63%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#51 dublin

dublin
  • New Member

  • 17 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:01

That's because the vote is for the one best driver.
If you have driver #1 who is the fastest, and driver #2 who is 0.001 second faster, than any poll asking "who is the fastest" will still show only one winner.
A good example is the team boss poll from last year: Alonso was voted the best, because he was, but it didn't say anything about Vettel and Hamilton.
Or the pole position for Hungary: there was only 0.038 between Lewis and Vettel, but in the end, Lewis had 1 pole that day, and Vettel had 0, just as many as Chilton.

In cases where there is only one 'winner' answer, poll results are no real indication of who's second or third, and how much better or worse they are.


That does not explain why the likes of Kimi and Hamilton have so many votes. Its quite amazing that Alonso, as usual is not being given the credit that he deserves and the completely unreasonable standards he has to live upto.

Let's break it down this season. Would anyone dispute that the Ferrari has on average been the 4th fastest car this season? The Lotus and Redbull have clearly been better, and with you could argue its been about even with Mercedes overall, yet Alonso is ahead of both Mercedes drivers and practically equal with Kimi who is being rated so highly this season.

See there is no logic in the reasoning, and you also have to consider that Alonso has beaten his team mate in every race this season unlike Kimi and Hamilton, so he is clearly being underrated this season. Vettel has driven well but again he is flattered by having the most consistent car of the season so of course he will be the most consistent driver, but once again he is facing zero adversity, not even from his team mate who seems to have kers and clutch issues every second race.

Edited by dublin, 06 August 2013 - 08:03.


Advertisement

#52 rasul

rasul
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:05

Let's break it down this season. Would anyone dispute that the Ferrari has on average been the 4th fastest car this season?

People have such a short memory. :rolleyes: Most considered Ferrari the best package until Monaco.

#53 dublin

dublin
  • New Member

  • 17 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:11

People have such a short memory. :rolleyes: Most considered Ferrari the best package until Monaco.



That was 5 races ago, and it was very close in that period with a few other teams, and does not make up for them being basically no where since Monaco. Lotus and Redbull have consistently been at the front so I think most people would accept Ferrari has been 3rd overall behind them this season. So the debate is just between Mercedes and Ferrari.

#54 rasul

rasul
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:24

That was 5 races ago, and it was very close in that period with a few other teams, and does not make up for them being basically no where since Monaco. Lotus and Redbull have consistently been at the front so I think most people would accept Ferrari has been 3rd overall behind them this season. So the debate is just between Mercedes and Ferrari.

So what? Being the best car in 5 races should be disregarded because it was 5 races ago and apparently you can claim that "Ferrari has on average been the 4th fastest car this season" when it wasn't? There were many races Lotus were nowhere. There were many races Mercedes were nowhere. There were quite a few races Red Bull struggled because of the tyres and were worse in the race than Ferrari and Lotus. No one was perfect. Try to be objective and stop downplaying the car's performance over the entire season just to make Alonso's performance look better than it was.
And this,

Alonso, as usual is not being given the credit that he deserves and the completely unreasonable standards he has to live upto.

is nonsense.
Alonso isn't underrated. If anything, his performance is often overrated.

#55 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:29

So what? Being the best car in 5 races should be disregarded because it was 5 races ago and apparently you can claim that "Ferrari has on average been the 4th fastest car this season" when it wasn't? There were many races Lotus were nowhere. There were many races Mercedes were nowhere. There were quite a few races Red Bull struggled because of the tyres and were worse in the race than Ferrari and Lotus. No one was perfect. Try to be objective and stop downplaying the car's performance over the entire season just to make Alonso's performance look better than it was.
And this, is nonsense.
Alonso isn't underrated. If anything, his performance is often overrated.

but the truth is that Ferrari is dog since Monaco. It has lucky podium in Silverstone etc. yet the car is painful to watch. We talk about them excatly BECAUSE IT WAS 5 races ago. Who cares about 5 races ago. They lost the pace in development race and got lap froggred by Merc and Lotus. Now they look at max as 4th fastest team.
And there werent many races where Lotus was nowhere. I can recall only Canada and Monaco.
While Ferrari was shite in Monaco, Montreal, Silverstone, Hockenheim and Hungaroring.

If we talk about the team being at the front most of the time, it is RBR hands down, but right behind him I would place Kimi Raikkonen, then Mercedes duo, then Alonso (Massa and Grosjean often look like they would different tier car, though Grosjean looks a bit more racy compared to Massa).

So with my biased opinion I would put the current mid season form as:
RBR, Mercedes, Lotus, and Mercedes 2nd because of pretty dominant race in Hungary, yet they looked horrible in Hockenheim, but I believe that the new tyres could do wonders for them. yet it might be a bit too early to call them as genuie title contender, we shall see in Spa.


And I disagree about Alonso.
He is the ONLY REASON that Ferrari is any high. With Massa-like driver in that 2nd seat, they would lag around Force India now. Car is horrible no matter how you look at it, yet Alonso as being one of the four top drivers in the current grid, somehow bring it to the top (cream will be always on the top)

Edited by Shiroo, 06 August 2013 - 08:33.


#56 dublin

dublin
  • New Member

  • 17 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:34

So what? Being the best car in 5 races should be disregarded because it was 5 races ago and apparently you can claim that "Ferrari has on average been the 4th fastest car this season" when it wasn't? There were many races Lotus were nowhere. There were many races Mercedes were nowhere. There were quite a few races Red Bull struggled because of the tyres and were worse in the race than Ferrari and Lotus. No one was perfect. Try to be objective and stop downplaying the car's performance over the entire season just to make Alonso's performance look better than it was.
And this, is nonsense.
Alonso isn't underrated. If anything, his performance is often overrated.



It wasn't the best car in every one of the first 5 races. It was the best in Spain, China, and maybe Australia, and had tech failure in Bahrain and was 3rd best at Malaysia. Redbull have struggled in only 3 races this season and been right at the front in 7 out of 10 races. I am not down playing anything just stating the facts, and if you would like to present an argument where the Ferrari has been as good as Lotus and Redbull overall feel free to post it.

#57 rasul

rasul
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:36

but the truth is that Ferrari is dog since Monaco. It has lucky podium in Silverstone etc. yet the car is painful to watch. We talk about them excatly BECAUSE IT WAS 5 races ago. Who cares about 5 races ago. They lost the pace in development race and got lap froggred by Merc and Lotus. Now they look at max as 4th fastest team.
And there werent many races where Lotus was nowhere. I can recall only Canada and Monaco.
While Ferrari was shite in Monaco, Montreal, Silverstone, Hockenheim and Hungaroring

He is talking about the average form over the entire season. He is not talking about the current form. When the car was the best in 5 races of 10, it can't be "on average 4th best car." Had Alonso maximized the car's potential in those 5 races, he would have been a lot closer to Vettel now. Yes, the car was dog in the last few races. But Alonso was far from perfect in the races the car could actually fight for the win. So I don't know how anyone can vote him as the best driver this season. He simply wasn't, and that's why he has so few votes.

Edited by rasul, 06 August 2013 - 08:37.


#58 dublin

dublin
  • New Member

  • 17 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:44

He is talking about the average form over the entire season. He is not talking about the current form. When the car was the best in 5 races of 10, it can't be "on average 4th best car." Had Alonso maximized the car's potential in those 5 races, he would have been a lot closer to Vettel now. Yes, the car was dog in the last few races. But Alonso was far from perfect in the races the car could actually fight for the win. So I don't know how anyone can vote him as the best driver this season. He simply wasn't, and that's why he has so few votes.



What races was Alonso far from perfect where the car could have fought for the win? Malaysia? Where else? This seems to be the new myth being created that Alonso somehow wasted the car because of 1 small error in 1 race. Why can't the car be on average 4th best over 10 races?

The Redbull has been the better car in 7 out of 10 races. When it comes to Lotus its hard to find any races where Ferrari were clearly better and about 5 where Lotus were. Even when Alonso beat them it was more down to fortune and out racing them rather than speed, and of course that is before we even factor in the Alonso factor vs the Lotus drivers.

Edited by dublin, 06 August 2013 - 08:47.


#59 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:49

What races was Alonso far from perfect where the car could have fought for the win? Malaysia? Where else? This seems to be the new myth being created that Alonso somehow wasted the car because of 1 small error in 1 race. Why can't the car be on average 4th best over 10 races?

The Redbull has been the better car in 7 out of 10 races. When it comes to Lotus its hard to find any races where Ferrari were clearly better and about 5 where Lotus were. Even when Alonso beat them it was more down to fortune and out racing them rather than speed.

Agree. If not the retarded somewhat tactics from the time to time from Lotus, and some misluck, only race where Ferrari was clearly better than the Lotus was in Barcelona. Though maybe with Kimi going for 4-stopper it would be equal then. Yet on average no matter how you look at it Ferrari is 4th team.
And you can't tell a bad word about his driving this year. Yes, he isn't on top of his form like Vettel and Raikkonen are at the very moment, but he is still top 4 drivers of the year.
Actually Lotus being 4th in WCC is down to the Grosjean that is painfully to watch. I expect him to be sacked at the end of the season unless he will be as competitve as he was in Hungary and Germany (but without silly mistakes).

Advertisement

#60 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:55

as usual is not being given the credit that he deserves and the completely unreasonable standards he has to live up to.

That's rich :lol:
There is one top driver on the grid who gets 'no credit', and has unreasonable standards to live up to.
A driver who 'masters Alonso and Hamilton' decide is not on their level. A driver who has to 'proof himself' with some newly made-up standard every year.
A driver whose every good results is explained away by the car, and explained as him being an average driver when he doesn't win.
That driver, is most definitely not Alonso, whose every poor result is explained away by 'the Ferrari is a dog'.

The 'unreasonable' standards is entirely on Alonso's own plate, who talked himself up so high last year, there was only one way to go: down.

Edited by mnmracer, 06 August 2013 - 09:01.


#61 rasul

rasul
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:35

What races was Alonso far from perfect where the car could have fought for the win? Malaysia? Where else? This seems to be the new myth being created that Alonso somehow wasted the car because of 1 small error in 1 race. Why can't the car be on average 4th best over 10 races?

The Redbull has been the better car in 7 out of 10 races. When it comes to Lotus its hard to find any races where Ferrari were clearly better and about 5 where Lotus were. Even when Alonso beat them it was more down to fortune and out racing them rather than speed.

Malaysia - DNF from 2nd. Yes, you can say that it was the team's mistake for not pitting him, but it was only a consequence of Alonso's own mistake. At this point of the season, the car had the pace to challenge Vettel for the win. Potentially 18-32 points lost (relatively to Vettel).
Bahrain - the car was great that weekend. It was so fast, that Alonso could have outqualified Vettel had he not made mistakes in qualy. Then Alonso made the mistake of opening his wing again(and he had to pit for a second time), even though the team had told him not to(as Domenicali admitted himself). If he didn't, he would have been 3rd even with a broken DRS. Potential 11 points lost thanks to his own mistake.

Then there's Monaco. The car wasn't good that weekend, but Alonso was awful, as well. In Monaco you don't need a great car to keep your position. Driver's skill is what matters the most. But Alonso was overtaken 3(!) times, and only thanks to Kimi and Perez he finished 7th instead of 9th.

So 3 bad weekends from Alonso. Had he not made mistakes in those weekends, he would have been very close to Vettel now instead of being 39 points behind. Make no mistake: I don't think he's been bad this season. He's been pretty solid. But he definitely can't be named "the best performing driver" this season, and that's why he has so few votes, and not because he's "not being given the credit that he deserves."

And Red Bull wasn't the better car in 7 out of 10 races. In both Bahrain and Malaysia Ferrari had the pace to challenge them. Both Red Bull wins in the first 5 races came when Ferrari couldn't challenge them for the win thanks to mistakes. But we can definitely say that Red Bull was the better car in 5 races out of 10(last 5 races). And Ferrari was the better car in the first 5 races out of 10. See? If we switch those 5 races, everyone now would be talking about what a great car Ferrari have. So let's not downplay the car's average performance over the season. Now Ferrari is a dog. But my point is, it wasn't.

Edited by rasul, 06 August 2013 - 09:39.


#62 dublin

dublin
  • New Member

  • 17 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:16

Malaysia - DNF from 2nd. Yes, you can say that it was the team's mistake for not pitting him, but it was only a consequence of Alonso's own mistake. At this point of the season, the car had the pace to challenge Vettel for the win. Potentially 18-32 points lost (relatively to Vettel).
Bahrain - the car was great that weekend. It was so fast, that Alonso could have outqualified Vettel had he not made mistakes in qualy. Then Alonso made the mistake of opening his wing again(and he had to pit for a second time), even though the team had told him not to(as Domenicali admitted himself). If he didn't, he would have been 3rd even with a broken DRS. Potential 11 points lost thanks to his own mistake.


At Malaysia the car was quick in the dry but struggled badly in the wet conditions , so there is no evidence he could have challenge Redbull and probably not Mercedes but that was his mistake no double. I'm not sure what mistakes you are talking about in bahrain qualifying considering he out qualified bahrain specialist by 6 tenths. You just made it up no doubt, and there is no confirmation that the team told him not to use it again.

Then there's Monaco. The car wasn't good that weekend, but Alonso was awful, as well. In Monaco you don't need a great car to keep your position. Driver's skill is what matters the most. But Alonso was overtaken 3(!) times, and only thanks to Kimi and Perez he finished 7th instead of 9th.


Why was he awful? For losing a few minor places when he was dive bombed from reckless drivers. Still managed to beat Massa.

So 3 bad weekends from Alonso. Had he not made mistakes in those weekends, he would have been very close to Vettel now instead of being 39 points behind. Make no mistake: I don't think he's been bad this season. He's been pretty solid. But he definitely can't be named "the best performing driver" this season, and that's why he has so few votes, and not because he's "not being given the credit that he deserves."

And Red Bull wasn't the better car in 7 out of 10 races. In both Bahrain and Malaysia Ferrari had the pace to challenge them. Both Red Bull wins in the first 5 races came when Ferrari couldn't challenge them for the win thanks to mistakes. But we can definitely say that Red Bull was the better car in 5 races out of 10(last 5 races). And Ferrari was the better car in the first 5 races out of 10. See? If we switch those 5 races, everyone now would be talking about what a great car Ferrari have. So let's not downplay the car's average performance over the season. Now Ferrari is a dog. But my point is, it wasn't.


No that's 3 exaggerated bad weekends from Alonso by you knitpicking on the smallest things. You could do the same for every driver on the grid. In Bahrain and Malaysia Redbull had their most dominant wins, yet you are claiming Ferrari had the pace to challenge them yet you accuse me of not being objective. Hilarious.

#63 rasul

rasul
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:27

You just made it up no doubt, and there is no confirmation that the team told him not to use it again.

Yes, I made it up no doubt. :rolleyes: Maybe you should have read the article I linked.
Domenicalli to BBC:

He admits Alonso was told not to press the DRS button again, but says it was a "normal" reflex reaction to the beep the drivers get in their ears when the device is active and can be used.
"I don't want to go into these things because it seems we are making accusations," Domenicali says. "We as a team did a mistake. Full stop. And it was very unfortunate because it was a race where easily second place was there. Easily."


Why was he awful? For losing a few minor places when he was dive bombed from reckless drivers. Still managed to beat Massa.

Yes, that's quite an achievement, considering Massa's form.

No that's 3 exaggerated bad weekends from Alonso by you knitpicking on the smallest things. You could do the same for every driver on the grid. In Bahrain and Malaysia Redbull had their most dominant wins, yet you are claiming Ferrari had the pace to challenge them yet you accuse me of not being objective. Hilarious.

What is hilarious is that you deny obvious things. Sure, in Malaysia we can't know for certain, but Alonso's pace even with a broken DRS was superb in Bahrain.

Edited by rasul, 06 August 2013 - 10:32.


#64 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:48

Yes, I made it up no doubt. :rolleyes: Maybe you should have read the article I linked.
Domenicalli to BBC:



Yes, that's quite an achievement, considering Massa's form.


What is hilarious is that you deny obvious things. Sure, in Malaysia we can't know for certain, but Alonso's pace even with a broken DRS was superb in Bahrain.

DRS only helps during an overtake. Not that it would really matter, still I wouldn't see him challenge RBR nor Lotus.

and domenicalli with his stay calm is ****in ridiculous.
It is similar to a prisoner getting buttf****d for few years, but his friend that isn't in a prison saying that he should just be calm, because situation might improve... or it might not.

He needs to be one of the worst TP Ferrari ever had. Totally plain and unlike Horner and Brawn (the first is probably best TP atm) he looks sometime like he simply doesn't give a **** about possibility of forcing his opinion, like Brawn and Horner did with tyres for example. My niece is more vocal about missing a candy than he was about changing the tyres that could epically hurt his team (and probably hurt)

Edited by Shiroo, 06 August 2013 - 10:51.


#65 AnR

AnR
  • Member

  • 144 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:10

Vettel have been Amazing so far, and a special prize to Kimi for taking the Lotus further up than it should be.

#66 SCEPurple

SCEPurple
  • Member

  • 239 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:21

Vettel have been Amazing so far, and a special prize to Kimi for taking the Lotus further up than it should be.


But he's crashed 3x ._.

#67 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:22

But he's crashed 3x ._.

Posted Image

#68 Radion

Radion
  • Member

  • 881 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:10

Vettel have been Amazing so far, and a special prize to Kimi for taking the Lotus further up than it should be.

I thought only hamilton and alonso could do so! :p


#69 skyform

skyform
  • Member

  • 426 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:39

For me it's Hamilton, because he is in a new team/car which had really big tyre problems for the last three years and still had them this year and yet he didn't finish any race except Spain bellow 5th position and he also collected the most points of all drivers in the last few races.

Vettel is great aswell but I gave the vote to Hamilton because we all know that RedBull was/is the most consistent car/team for the last 3 years and Vettel already knows his team very well.

Edited by skyform, 06 August 2013 - 21:41.


#70 st99

st99
  • Member

  • 379 posts
  • Joined: May 13

Posted 06 August 2013 - 23:39

Marussia, Caterham and Williams have more votes than McLaren in the fastest car poll :drunk: :rotfl:

In my opinion Hamilton has been great so far this season but I wouldn't say he has been the best, mostly because of his race in Spain when he finished even behind Gutiérrez, I know that Mercedes struggled that weekend but he finished too far behind Rosberg, I don't think Vettel or Raikkonen have had a race where they struggled so much.

#71 SCEPurple

SCEPurple
  • Member

  • 239 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 06 August 2013 - 23:57

Posted Image



Will only be satisfied when it become unanimous that he hasnt been best so far in 2013. Long, long road ahead.

#72 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 03:23

...but the truth is that Ferrari is dog since Monaco....


It's a shame FA didn't maximize his points when the Ferrari was the best on the grid.

#73 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 03:25

Will only be satisfied when it become unanimous that he hasnt been best so far in 2013. Long, long road ahead.


LOL, awesome post spoken like a true F1 fan(atic). :D

#74 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,517 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:32

That's rich :lol:
There is one top driver on the grid who gets 'no credit', and has unreasonable standards to live up to.
A driver who 'masters Alonso and Hamilton' decide is not on their level. A driver who has to 'proof himself' with some newly made-up standard every year.
A driver whose every good results is explained away by the car, and explained as him being an average driver when he doesn't win.
That driver, is most definitely not Alonso, whose every poor result is explained away by 'the Ferrari is a dog'.

The 'unreasonable' standards is entirely on Alonso's own plate, who talked himself up so high last year, there was only one way to go: down.

Very well said and very well ignored by everyone.

Vettel cannot be the best even though he has beaten everybody for the last four years.

Techincal problem, does not win. Alonso inherits win -> Alonso is greatest
Wins everybody -> It's the car'
Does not win every race -> he is no good
Does not get pole, because Mercedes is the better car in qualifying -> Hamilton is greatest
Gets the pole -> It's the car
Does not get every pole -> he is no good
Alonso/Hamilton touches the wall -> They are driving on the limit
Vettel touches the wall -> he's crashed 3x
Alonso/Hamilton loses parts of the front wing -> Damn those other drivers and those wide wings
Vettel loses parts of the front wing -> he's crashed 3x
Vettel loses to Webber -> Webber is better
Vettel wins Webber four seasons in a row -> Webber is no good. Preferred treatment. Number one driver.
Vettel drives five seasons in a row for Red Bull, wins 3-4 WDCs -> He should go to another team to prove himself
Hamilton drives six seasons for McLaren, wins a WDCs -> Greatest of all time
Alonso moves to Ferrari, does not win WDC -> It's the car
Vettel moves to Ferrari, wins WDC -> Sure, now they build a good car

Edited by Gorma, 07 August 2013 - 06:36.


#75 Zoetrope

Zoetrope
  • Member

  • 1,141 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:04

For me it's Hamilton, because he is in a new team/car which had really big tyre problems for the last three years and still had them this year and yet he didn't finish any race except Spain bellow 5th position and he also collected the most points of all drivers in the last few races.

Vettel is great aswell but I gave the vote to Hamilton because we all know that RedBull was/is the most consistent car/team for the last 3 years and Vettel already knows his team very well.


Hamilton has impressed me more as well, but it doesn't mean he performed best as the poll asks. It was Vettel IMO.

#76 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,517 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:18

Vettel is great aswell but I gave the vote to Hamilton because we all know that RedBull was/is the most consistent car/team for the last 3 years and Vettel already knows his team very well.

but only in the hands of Vettel.

#77 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:39

Will only be satisfied when it become unanimous that he hasnt been best so far in 2013. Long, long road ahead.

That's a very weird definition of crashed...

#78 SCEPurple

SCEPurple
  • Member

  • 239 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:06

That's a very weird definition of crashed...


Dont want to argue semantics, the guy has hit a wall and another car, and gone off track, i know crash isn't tekkers the right word but i am lazy.

Anyway, glad we all now recognise Vet's been great but not best. That was exhausting!

#79 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 2,341 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:47

Am surprised to see Alonso with very few votes :confused:

The dumb mistakes in Malaysia and Bahrain, so early in the season when Ferrari had, relatively speaking, a much better package than they do now, must surely dampen people's enthusiasm for Alonso's (and Ferrari's) 2013 campaign. He then had a rough weekend in Monaco, where a lacklustre qualifying put him right in front of the crazy train led by Perez, making him perhaps overly cautious in the race. Then, moving in to the last few races, he hasn't had much opportunity to shine, though his strong race in Canada was praised pretty much unanimously.

Edited by Nonesuch, 07 August 2013 - 08:49.


Advertisement

#80 AnR

AnR
  • Member

  • 144 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:57

Very well said and very well ignored by everyone.

Vettel cannot be the best even though he has beaten everybody for the last four years.

Techincal problem, does not win. Alonso inherits win -> Alonso is greatest
Wins everybody -> It's the car'
Does not win every race -> he is no good
Does not get pole, because Mercedes is the better car in qualifying -> Hamilton is greatest
Gets the pole -> It's the car
Does not get every pole -> he is no good
Alonso/Hamilton touches the wall -> They are driving on the limit
Vettel touches the wall -> he's crashed 3x
Alonso/Hamilton loses parts of the front wing -> Damn those other drivers and those wide wings
Vettel loses parts of the front wing -> he's crashed 3x
Vettel loses to Webber -> Webber is better
Vettel wins Webber four seasons in a row -> Webber is no good. Preferred treatment. Number one driver.
Vettel drives five seasons in a row for Red Bull, wins 3-4 WDCs -> He should go to another team to prove himself
Hamilton drives six seasons for McLaren, wins a WDCs -> Greatest of all time
Alonso moves to Ferrari, does not win WDC -> It's the car
Vettel moves to Ferrari, wins WDC -> Sure, now they build a good car


:lol:

#81 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:03

Dont want to argue semantics, the guy has hit a wall and another car, and gone off track, i know crash isn't tekkers the right word but i am lazy.

Anyway, glad we all now recognise Vet's been great but not best. That was exhausting!

Well, if you use weird definitions, then we end up stuck with semantics. Like now again.
It may be semantics, but "best" is a measure in relation to others. Vettel can have 3 'crashes' and still be better than the others, something which the vast majority of both fans and pundits agree on. Formula One is about being the fastest and bring home the most points, not 'crashing' the least, so to measure who is best by who 'crashed' the most, is a pretty unconventional and extraordinary claim.

To make extraordinary claims, you need extraordinary evidence.

Edited by mnmracer, 07 August 2013 - 09:05.


#82 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 3,209 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:18

There are four drivers on the grid that make the car "look better than it is". And Vettel is among them. The first four in the championship are there because they perform above others.

#83 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,556 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:29

Dont want to argue semantics, the guy has hit a wall and another car, and gone off track, i know crash isn't tekkers the right word but i am lazy.

Anyway, glad we all now recognise Vet's been great but not best. That was exhausting!


I think it's pretty clear he was the best. No one of the greats has been even remotely as consistent and fast.

Edited by Diablobb81, 07 August 2013 - 09:29.


#84 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,936 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:37

Vettel cannot be the best even though he has beaten everybody for the last four years.

Techincal problem, does not win. Alonso inherits win -> Alonso is greatest
Wins everybody -> It's the car'
Does not win every race -> he is no good
Does not get pole, because Mercedes is the better car in qualifying -> Hamilton is greatest
Gets the pole -> It's the car
Does not get every pole -> he is no good
Alonso/Hamilton touches the wall -> They are driving on the limit
Vettel touches the wall -> he's crashed 3x
Alonso/Hamilton loses parts of the front wing -> Damn those other drivers and those wide wings
Vettel loses parts of the front wing -> he's crashed 3x
Vettel loses to Webber -> Webber is better
Vettel wins Webber four seasons in a row -> Webber is no good. Preferred treatment. Number one driver.
Vettel drives five seasons in a row for Red Bull, wins 3-4 WDCs -> He should go to another team to prove himself
Hamilton drives six seasons for McLaren, wins a WDCs -> Greatest of all time
Alonso moves to Ferrari, does not win WDC -> It's the car
Vettel moves to Ferrari, wins WDC -> Sure, now they build a good car

I don't necessarily agree with everything, but well done :up: :lol:

#85 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:31

Vettel's been best in qualifying to some extent - beaten Webber on all occasions.

In the races, well Webber's consistently making up places despite numerous set backs, Lewis has been faultless I think. Raikkonen has been quite faultless.

Vettel:
- Lost some front wing in Hun
- Hit wall in Canada
- Went off at T1 in Canada

To say he has been the best so unequivocally would be to look at the championship tables only, but (to beat a dead horse for kicks) Lewis vs. Jenson should more than tell us that the tables are not always completely reflective. (2012... come on)


You think? Or you want to think?
Quite faultless? Or just faultless?

#86 skyform

skyform
  • Member

  • 426 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:44

but only in the hands of Vettel.

Webber would be very consistent aswell without all the kers problems.


#87 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:56

Webber would be very consistent aswell without all the kers problems.

Untrue. Vettel has had as many mechanical issues as Webber, there's more then just KERS.

#88 tmzxaar

tmzxaar
  • Member

  • 338 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:13

No one of the greats has been even remotely as consistent and fast.


WAT?

#89 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,556 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:20

WAT?


Of the current greats (Lewis, Fred or Kimi). The talk is about his season.

#90 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,849 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 07 August 2013 - 13:13

1. Vettel
2. Raikkonen
3. Hamilton
4. Alonso
5. Hulkenberg
6. Rosberg
7. Button
8. Webber
9. Di resta
10. Sutil
11. Ricciardo
12. Perez
13. Grosjean
14. Massa
15. Vergne
16. Maldonaldo
17. Bottas
18. Gutierrez

1. Bianchi
2. Pic
3. Van der garde


1. Chilton

On my way out so i'll list my reasoning another time.


#91 SCEPurple

SCEPurple
  • Member

  • 239 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 13:48

You think? Or you want to think?
Quite faultless? Or just faultless?


I think, because I hadn't checked to make absolutely sure.

Quite faultless, because there hasn't been anything gobsmackingly bad, but you can always assume more is possible.

#92 mardmarium

mardmarium
  • Member

  • 489 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 07 August 2013 - 15:27

Yes, I made it up no doubt. :rolleyes: Maybe you should have read the article I linked.
Domenicalli to BBC:



Yes, that's quite an achievement, considering Massa's form.


What is hilarious is that you deny obvious things. Sure, in Malaysia we can't know for certain, but Alonso's pace even with a broken DRS was superb in Bahrain.


He admits Alonso was told not to press the DRS button again, but says it was a "normal" reflex reaction to the beep the drivers get in their ears when the device is active and can be used… ermm…I’m confused now...well, the truth is that this article doesn´t specify when Alonso was told not to press the DRS button again.

Yes, Alonso's pace in Bahrain was great, but I’ve always thought that what happened in Bahrain wasn´t Alonso mistake, basically DRS failure and team mistake…

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106971

"He [Fernando] was convinced that there was a problem with the rear tyres going away earlier than we were expected but we saw from the data that there was this problem on the rear wing.
"So we had to call him in because the regulations force us to do it.
"We put it back and it seemed that the situation was right and then suddenly we saw the problem came back again.
"We had to call him back and then after that moment it was clear there was a real issue on the wing and we said to him not to use it again."


http://m.bbc.co.uk/s...rmula1/22278769

He pitted to have it forced back into place but Ferrari allowed him to use it again when he returned to the track. It immediately stuck open again and he had to pit at the end of that lap to have it repaired for a second time.

By the way, my choice in this poll is Vettel; Red Bull; Red Bull

#93 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 15:36

I think, because I hadn't checked to make absolutely sure.

Quite faultless, because there hasn't been anything gobsmackingly bad, but you can always assume more is possible.

Considering what you nitpicked for Vettel, it is an odd statement to make without knowing what you're talking about.

#94 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,770 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 16:12

Different interpretations of the question can generate different answers. If by mid season form, we are to rate the performance of the cars and drivers, especially the cars, after Hungary, I´d say Mercedes and RBR are quickest, followed by Lotus and Ferrari.

If we are to take into account the whole first part of the season I´d say Ferrari and Lotus were quickest at the beginning, followed by RBR and Mercedes. Afterwards Lotus and Ferrari lost some ground and Mercedes and RBR got better. On average so far I guess RBR have been the more consistent, not necessarily the fastest, every weekend with Ferrari and Mercedes showing the largest performance differences. So, considering the whole season so far, I´d say, on average RBR first (somewhat flattered by Vettel´s good performance this year) followed by Ferrari, Merc and Lotus very close together.

Driver-wise, definitely Vettel and Kimi have been the most effective, with Hamilton close and Alonso making some mistakes and not being able to capitalize the times when the Ferrari was quicker.

#95 Juggles

Juggles
  • Member

  • 896 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 07 August 2013 - 16:41

Vettel, Red Bull, Red Bull.

The second question is phrased misleadingly because it uses the word "fastest" rather than "best." When someone reads "fastest" they might be inclined to think of a car which has qualified on pole seven times this season. Obviously that's silly when you look at the race results of said car.

The top four cars so far in order of their ability to score world championship points are (1) Red Bull, (2) Ferrari, (3) Lotus and (4) Mercedes. I think there's an interesting debate in there about whether the Ferrari or the Lotus has been the car to have so far but (1) and (4) are pretty clear cut to me.

Of the generally accepted top four drivers my order is (1) Vettel, (2) Hamilton, (3) Raikkonen and (4) Alonso.

Basically I think Vettel is further ahead of Raikkonen and Alonso than the car merits and Hamilton is closer to Raikkonen and Alonso than the car merits.

#96 slmk

slmk
  • Member

  • 4,398 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 07 August 2013 - 17:06

Different interpretations of the question can generate different answers. If by mid season form, we are to rate the performance of the cars and drivers, especially the cars, after Hungary, I´d say Mercedes and RBR are quickest, followed by Lotus and Ferrari.

If we are to take into account the whole first part of the season I´d say Ferrari and Lotus were quickest at the beginning, followed by RBR and Mercedes. Afterwards Lotus and Ferrari lost some ground and Mercedes and RBR got better. On average so far I guess RBR have been the more consistent, not necessarily the fastest, every weekend with Ferrari and Mercedes showing the largest performance differences. So, considering the whole season so far, I´d say, on average RBR first (somewhat flattered by Vettel´s good performance this year) followed by Ferrari, Merc and Lotus very close together.

Driver-wise, definitely Vettel and Kimi have been the most effective, with Hamilton close and Alonso making some mistakes and not being able to capitalize the times when the Ferrari was quicker.


Kimi has lacked qualifying pace all season long. He's been good in races, but without a better pace on Saturdays, he won't win a second WDC.

#97 Crossmax

Crossmax
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 07 August 2013 - 20:36

Vettel drives five seasons in a row for Red Bull, wins 3-4 WDCs -> He should go to another team to prove himself
Hamilton drives six seasons for McLaren, wins a WDCs -> Greatest of all time

Quoted for pure epicness :up:

#98 vista

vista
  • Member

  • 539 posts
  • Joined: April 13

Posted 07 August 2013 - 20:59

Everybody has an agenda here. It is fun to read, though.

I think Webber and Rosberg has been generally underrated so far. Webber is probably the most unlucky driver ever and Alonso gets slammed for DRS failure (arguably not his fault as posted above), and the slightest of touches that happened to damage his front wing the worst way possible. Luck has played it's part. Also, with a fast, consistent car it's easy to look good.

#99 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,517 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:52

Everybody has an agenda here. It is fun to read, though.

I think Webber and Rosberg has been generally underrated so far. Webber is probably the most unlucky driver ever and Alonso gets slammed for DRS failure (arguably not his fault as posted above), and the slightest of touches that happened to damage his front wing the worst way possible. Luck has played it's part. Also, with a fast, consistent car it's easy to look good.

Webber is not the unluckiest driver ever. Not even close. Sure he has lost some points and probable podium finishes, but even Vettel has been more unlucky. He has lost multiple wins to technical DNFs. If you talk most unlucky... Kimi lost two WDCs to a couple engine failures.

Advertisement

#100 v@sh

v@sh
  • Member

  • 734 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 08 August 2013 - 06:59

Webber is not the unluckiest driver ever. Not even close. Sure he has lost some points and probable podium finishes, but even Vettel has been more unlucky. He has lost multiple wins to technical DNFs. If you talk most unlucky... Kimi lost two WDCs to a couple engine failures.


Depends on the definition of unlucky. I agree that Seb's and Kimi's failures cost them in terms of the position they were at the point of failure in the race. However, what's the point of having a fast car when you aren't able to compete for the lead in the first place? Your race is compromised immediately and you are already playing catch up. Frequent niggling failures don't even give you the opportunity to challenge for WDC on a consistent basis each weekend.

It's fine to have some KERs problem during the race when you're out front but for that to happen in qualifying on a track that is hard to overtake you are screwed for one e.g. forget looking at a possible win, you won't even have the chance to. I'd rather have one or two failures in the lead or in a podium position a year rather than have frequent failures that put you on the back foot every w/e.

I don't see Martin Brundle saying 'If he didn't have bad luck, he'd have no luck at all' for Seb/Kimi whereas he has multiple times for Webber. Kimi definitely had problems during his McLaren days but on the whole hasn't had too many problems. I'd trust Brundle's opinion over yours any day.

Edited by v@sh, 08 August 2013 - 07:01.