32 replies to this topic

[Afterburner]

I thought for sure there would've been a thread for this on here already.

The idea here is oddly similar to Raikkonen's strategy in the previous race. Maybe I was missing something while watching the race, but I couldn't help but notice that in the laps leading up to Vettel's final pit stop, he was more or less maintaining around a 7.3 second advantage over Hamilton on tyres that were much older than his. The question here is quite simple--given the difficulty that Vettel had in passing Raikkonen on considerably older tyres, should Red Bull have left Vettel out on track for the last fifteen laps of the race in the hope that the gap would've been enough to grab a victory, or, worse case scenario, a podium?

I think it could've worked, personally--he might not have held the gap to Hamilton (especially considering Mercedes' speed on the straights versus Red Bull), but I don't think he would've finished any worse than third or fourth, and that way he would've at least had a shot at the win. Thoughts?

[Markn93]

I thought he should have pitted for options with 15 or so laps left. Even though we know from Webber that wasn't going to work, mirroring Hamilton was never going to do the trick. If beating Kimi was the aim then staying out would probably have been the answer yes.

[rhukkas]

I thought for sure there would've been a thread for this on here already.

The idea here is oddly similar to Raikkonen's strategy in the previous race. Maybe I was missing something while watching the race, but I couldn't help but notice that in the laps leading up to Vettel's final pit stop, he was more or less maintaining around a 7.3 second advantage over Hamilton on tyres that were much older than his. The question here is quite simple--given the difficulty that Vettel had in passing Raikkonen on considerably older tyres, should Red Bull have left Vettel out on track for the last fifteen laps of the race in the hope that the gap would've been enough to grab a victory, or, worse case scenario, a podium?

I think it could've worked, personally--he might not have held the gap to Hamilton (especially considering Mercedes' speed on the straights versus Red Bull), but I don't think he would've finished any worse than third or fourth, and that way he would've at least had a shot at the win. Thoughts?

depends... maybe they ran pressures for a three-stopper on those tyres increasing risk of drop-off.

[Mtom]

I thought for sure there would've been a thread for this on here already.

The idea here is oddly similar to Raikkonen's strategy in the previous race. Maybe I was missing something while watching the race, but I couldn't help but notice that in the laps leading up to Vettel's final pit stop, he was more or less maintaining around a 7.3 second advantage over Hamilton on tyres that were much older than his. The question here is quite simple--given the difficulty that Vettel had in passing Raikkonen on considerably older tyres, should Red Bull have left Vettel out on track for the last fifteen laps of the race in the hope that the gap would've been enough to grab a victory, or, worse case scenario, a podium?

I think it could've worked, personally--he might not have held the gap to Hamilton (especially considering Mercedes' speed on the straights versus Red Bull), but I don't think he would've finished any worse than third or fourth, and that way he would've at least had a shot at the win. Thoughts?

Hamilton just cruised for the last 20 or so laps. Also if Vettel stays out, his tires would have been around 35 laps old at the end, playing sitting duck.

[mnmracer]

I was also surprised, but in retrospect, looking at the way his tires dropped off before the previous stops, it may have been the best choice. It's a shame of those mechanical gremlins, I was really looking forward to a showdown between Lewis and Sebastian.

[SR388]

No. Those tires would have been toast, Lewis would have gotten past him.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

I think they were right in pitting him, if they weren't first in the WDC with Seb then I could understand staying out and taking that risk, but they're first and they don't need to take unnecessary risks such as staying out and possibly seeing his tyres fall off the cliff and him falling down the order.

[GiancarloF1]

No. Those tires would have been toast, Lewis would have gotten past him.

But Raikkonen wouldn't. And it's really what matters here.

[george1981]

Vettel needs to keep an eye on the championship. Had he risked going to the end he might have dropped off the cliff and lost ground to Alonso as well as Raikonnen.
Even with Hamilton's win he's still the best part of 50 points or two races wins behind, so for the time being Vettel can ignore Hamilton as a title contender.
If Mercedes keep up their challenge that could change, but no one is really expecting them to do so.

[Sin]

I also think he should have pitted for options

[P123]

I did think they may try it after Hamilton's last stop left him 7s behind, but then again the drop off in tyres during the race was usually quite severe and sudden, so it would have been a risk. 36 laps on one set....

[Timstr11]

Would be a nice ending as he would've hit the tyre cliff. For sure.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Vettel being unable to pass Raikkonen (or Button) was Vettel's unique problem. It seemed like his car was set up in such a way that he couldn't take advantage of DRS or KERS. I'm sure that Hamilton would not have such a difficulty passing Vettel on old tires if he had to.

[joshb]

Vettel wouldn't have won after those laps behind Button.
Trying to do 35 laps on 1 set would've been stupid and a needless gamble- Hamilton would've passed him on track and he'd have had to pit near the end anyway- losing 3rd to Webber
Had they been a bit kinder on their softs early on and committed before the race to a 2 stopper, then maybe but it doesn't matter. 3rd wasn't a disaster, just didn't work out yesterday. Just a pity when he got onto Kimi with 10 laps left he couldn't get close enough to him when it mattered in the last sector

Edited by joshb, 29 July 2013 - 07:36.

[SilentKiller]

Would be a nice ending as he would've hit the tyre cliff. For sure.

That also at turn 1. He will have to stroll to complete the lap. And the Marussias and the Caterhams unlapping him.

[Der Pate]

Button cost Vettel the win! Jenson raced and the defended his place against Vettel, as if it was for his life... Don´t understand why...

I´m still not convinced, that the Mercedes solved their tyre-problems, because Lewis didn´t have to show, how the tyres work under pressure. If Vettel had gotten past Button faster, he might have challenged Lewis, and the race would have been a different story.

Before Seb´s last pitstop I was certain, that he would take options, but in the end, it wouldn´t have worked, as Seb couldn´t overtake Kimi...

[SpaceHorseParty]

Button cost Vettel the win! Jenson raced and the defended his place against Vettel, as if it was for his life... Don´t understand why...

Button had every right to defend his place, in fact, it would have been weird if he didn't do it. And if Vettel can't overtake him, well, that's Vettel's problem.

Edited by SpaceHorseParty, 29 July 2013 - 10:50.

[rhukkas]

Button cost Vettel the win! Jenson raced and the defended his place against Vettel, as if it was for his life... Don´t understand why...

I didn't see Button do any defending. Just drove his own pace.

[Realyn]

Look at Ric's lap times. He dropped 4 seconds/lap on Vergne when his tyres were done, so : Nope.

[windoesnot]

Button cost Vettel the win! Jenson raced and the defended his place against Vettel, as if it was for his life... Don´t understand why...

Because its motor RACING. He's not out there to help drivers from other teams.

[Der Pate]

Because its motor RACING. He's not out there to help drivers from other teams.

I totally agree with you, but in these conditions I thought Button would conserve his tyres rather than having a pointless fight against Seb. Vettel was no oponent for Button, and Jenson knew that. So I was rather surprised. I didn´t say, that Button did ruin the race of Vettel on purpose, but it was strange, how badly Jenson fought...

The result was, that Button cost Vettel the seconds, he lost on Hamilton. Maybe Lewis would have won anyway, but there would have been more pessure on him and the tyres, and we will never know, how the tyres would have react to that...

[Coops3]

When he came in with 15 laps to go I was expecting him to switch to options for the final charge.

[hupholland]

3rd was pretty safe and they should have kept Vettel out as long as him lap times were around the same as Raikkonen. They were playing it very safe, but I guess they know what they're doing.

[EthanM]

I totally agree with you, but in these conditions I thought Button would conserve his tyres rather than having a pointless fight against Seb. Vettel was no oponent for Button, and Jenson knew that. So I was rather surprised. I didn´t say, that Button did ruin the race of Vettel on purpose, but it was strange, how badly Jenson fought...

The result was, that Button cost Vettel the seconds, he lost on Hamilton. Maybe Lewis would have won anyway, but there would have been more pessure on him and the tyres, and we will never know, how the tyres would have react to that...

doesn't matter, the RB was worse than its usual bad self in dirty air, there was a radio call to Vettel to back out of Hamilton's slipstream in like lap 5 or 6. Sure Button probably cost Vettel P2 but I don't think he could have fought for the win.

[techspeed]

Button cost Vettel the win! Jenson raced and the defended his place against Vettel, as if it was for his life... Don´t understand why...

Everyone complains because the drivers wave each other through instead of defending to preserve tyres, now when a driver does hold up another that's wrong as well.

Would you have been complaining if Button had held up Hamilton long enough to allow Vettel to catch up.

[Afterburner]

Button had every right to defend his place, in fact, it would have been weird if he didn't do it. And if Vettel can't overtake him, well, that's Vettel's problem.

Exactly.

[jrg19]

I didn't see Button do any defending. Just drove his own pace.

I think people are imagining him weaving on every straight, I think there was also a team radio with Jenson saying "F' Vettel he ain't getting passed, its my life mission not to let him by"

[st99]

Button had every right to defend his place, in fact, it would have been weird if he didn't do it. And if Vettel can't overtake him, well, that's Vettel's problem.

I think it's more a Red Bull problem (Webber couldn't overtake Alonso on much fresher tyres as well). On the straights even with DRS and KERS the cars in front of the two RB9 pulled away. If they continue like this in Spa and Monza they're going to be a sitting duck on the straights.

[Alfisti]

At some point RBR are going to pay a heavy price for the lack of straight line speed. i don't know if it's inherent in the car or a set up thing but both drivers languish towards the bottom of the speed traps week after week. It's gonna burn em soon enough.

[kor]

doesn't matter, the RB was worse than its usual bad self in dirty air, there was a radio call to Vettel to back out of Hamilton's slipstream in like lap 5 or 6. Sure Button probably cost Vettel P2 but I don't think he could have fought for the win.

I agree almost completely. Button "cost" Seb P2 (I don't see a possible win) but it was Sebs fault. He damaged his front wing in a somewhat overambitious if not stupid atempt to overtake. This cost him about half a second per lap. I think this is why he wasn't able to get out of the box in front of Kimi and stay out of the trouble, he got into later.

Edited by kor, 29 July 2013 - 14:41.

[OldSoldier2]

At some point RBR are going to pay a heavy price for the lack of straight line speed. i don't know if it's inherent in the car or a set up thing but both drivers languish towards the bottom of the speed traps week after week. It's gonna burn em soon enough.

It is the gearing that RBR normally uses to be quicker in high speed corners. In Abu Dhabi last year when the team opted to start Vettel from the pit lane, they changed the gearing for straight line speed. Hence the podium finish. Your point is well-taken as Vettel did not have the speed to pass Button on the straight like Hamilton did. That was Vettel's biggest problem in the race.

As for the question at hand, I think they should have kept Seb out for a few more laps and then gone to a scrubbed set of options. They wouldn't have won, but might have finished second.

[Atreiu]

No. He's the championship leader and taking gambles is a no no at the point of things. Given that Alonso was easily cleared, there was no reason to risk a complete tyre fallout for those few points.

[Der Pate]

doesn't matter, the RB was worse than its usual bad self in dirty air, there was a radio call to Vettel to back out of Hamilton's slipstream in like lap 5 or 6. Sure Button probably cost Vettel P2 but I don't think he could have fought for the win.

Everyone complains because the drivers wave each other through instead of defending to preserve tyres, now when a driver does hold up another that's wrong as well.

Would you have been complaining if Button had held up Hamilton long enough to allow Vettel to catch up.;)

Wait, wait, wait! I never complaint about Button! Of course he had every right to defend his position. I only said, that Button cost Vettel many seconds and probably the win, but at least the chance to put pressure on Hamilton!

To make things clear: Maybe I should have said, that impossibility of Vettel to overtake Button cost him the possible win!

(It seems, that you have to be veeeeery carefull with comments, which could be understood as criticism towards British drivers... )