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LdM Not Happy With Alonso's Comments


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#551 Module

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 17:44

If your theory is that Ferrari's sales are declining due to not winning championships in the last few years, I must respectfully point out that the reality of facts absolutely destroy your theory.
Here are some stats for you (taken from Wikipedia):
2008 - 6587 cars sold
2009 - 6250 cars sold (note decline after a WCC year - totally opposite to your theory)
2010 - 6461 cars sold
2011 - 7001 cars sold
2012 - 7318 cars sold

I'm not an economist but the trend shows that I should bet on Ferrari selling a record number of cars in 201,3 despite the fact that they want to limit their production to make the brand even more desireable.

These stats also show how little influence the negative talk on F1 forums (that you cited) have on what is really happening out there.


My point wasn't that it would affect any sale in short term. As I understand the demand for Ferraris are bigger then the production and actually your estimate of growth would be wrong as I remember that they decided to reduce production to make cars more exclusive (not sure about this). Probably not many of us on theese forums are going to go and buy a Ferrari tomorrow, or McLaren based on last years WCC.

But the reason that Ferrari is in a league of its own is the story, the legend, the posters everything. Their most prized possession their name and its getting tarnished little by little. Maybe next time somebody watches Top Gear and they tell you about the smart aerodynamics you wonder how good it is when they cant get a windtunnel to work...

One in a million buys a Ferrari each year, many of those have dreamed of one day buying one since Schumacher era. As somebody said in one of the treads, Ferraris been here for 60+ years and want to be here when we are all gone. But for this to happend the myth must live on.

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#552 as65p

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 19:51

But to bring the talk back to the topic Alonso himself and many others have been truing to induce the perception that whenever Alonso has success it is due to his superhuman efforts and despite the crappy car which he places where it shouldn't be. While the success of his rivals and Vettel in particular is all down to the superior car. The car does not drive itself around the track and Vettel is not the 2010 Seb who could be psyched by Webber.


That's all strawman stuff, "superhuman efforts" and whatnot, it's not what I see 'many trying to induce'.

What I do see 'many' believe is that Vettel had a better car than Alonso for 3.5 years now. Good for Vettel I say, that's the goal in F1, getting the best car and the job done with it, which he did. Alonso, in worse cars, made him work for it two of those years and gets credit for that from 'many', but in the end Vettel prevailed. What's the problem?



#553 mardmarium

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 23:25

Alonso is getting a bit desperate because he's seeing another year getting by and no championship. He feels that it is unfair for all his hard work and talent not to be compensated and some young boy just came and stole his glory. On the top of that, Hamilton is doing wonders at Mercedes and Kimi is performing very well in a inferior team and is on the verge of getting the best car on the grid.

He doesn't respect Vettel much but in fact he's starting to wonder how good the boy realy his and wants to compare directly. Alonso also feels that even if Sebastian is a bit faster in pure speed, he will turn things around with inside politcs and with race craft. I think Vettel is afraid of this: Alonso comes to RB and starts inmediatly to make internal politics to get advantage like he did everywhere.

Alonso is on a narrow line: If he gets to red bull it will be wonderfull, but if he can't he will have problems at home and if he wants to leave he has only Lotus in case kimi is out.

Ferrari is pissed off for two reasons: 1- their wonder boy couldn't get the results inspite having all conditions since 2010, and 2- he's showing to be selfish, desrespecting the brand. The problem is that in this moment, Maranello has little options: Fire Alonso? And then? There is no top driver to get there. Hulk, Bottas, Bianchi? To young and unproven. Button? Past his prime and sensible to technical problems. Rosberg? Could be, but doutfull he will leave Mercedes now. Kubica? Will he ever return in shape? Kimi? that would be massive punch in the face and Kimi himself would show them the bird.

That leaves Vettel. But a direct swap would be very hard to do right now.

Better to talk with Alonso and finnish this case as fast has you can.


Considering that Alonso is a member of the Ferrari team (an outstanding member I would say), I've tried to be informed about him, he is the driver that I’ve followed the most in last years.

I usually read, watch and hear everything related to Ferrari, mainly what people from inside the team say. I try to be informed about how the car is performing and how the drivers are performing. In order to know what´s really happening I usually try to avoid speculations. Obviously it's impossible to know what's the total truth, but anyone can deduce several things just reading, watching and hearing.

What I’m trying to say is that considering all the above commented, in my opinion Ferrari has worked hard, they haven´t had a shit car, just a not good enough car and Alonso has done a really good job.

If I were a F1 driver, believe me, I would be afraid of him, and not just because of his political skills. I really think he is relentless, at track and outside. By the way, I don´t think he would have problems being paired with any other driver in any team, it doesn´t seem to me that he is afraid of anyone, it's more something like "If I give you my best, I'll expect the best from you"

In any case, If LdM wanted to replace the driver, if the driver left Ferrari, if another really good driver came, I wouldn´t have any problem (fortunately, there are some great drivers in F1 nowadays, maybe my first choice would be Hamilton, no objective reason, just because I like how he drives), but the first thing to do, is improve the car. Great drivers go, great drivers come, the team is always there and the team needs an improved car (LdM knows perfectly that this is the main problem, I have no doubt about it)

Anyway, in my opinion Alonso will stay in Ferrari, just some egos overreacting for some days.



#554 BrawnGeePee

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 23:57

LdM should already know the problem with Alonso(and Massa too): just simply the factor of Happiness~ He should not think he was the only one unhappy here.

Without happiness in his drivers, this will make them demotivated, decrease performance, making the team lose its efficiency and suddenly dis-harmonize, which is resulting to his unhappiness. Luca should be thinking about other drivers who are incoming in their prime, experienced enough, eager and happy to become inclined in the scuderia. If sponsorship money was not hindering the team, then he should have just released both of them and grab the likes of Kobayashi, Hulkenberg, or even DiResta, hungry and happy to ride the prancing horse.

It's seems the scuderia's pride is too big for a brain that is big and functional as their wind tunnel :p

Edited by BrawnGeePee, 01 August 2013 - 00:50.


#555 redbarron

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:54

Considering that Alonso is a member of the Ferrari team (an outstanding member I would say), I've tried to be informed about him, he is the driver that I’ve followed the most in last years.

I usually read, watch and hear everything related to Ferrari, mainly what people from inside the team say. I try to be informed about how the car is performing and how the drivers are performing. In order to know what´s really happening I usually try to avoid speculations. Obviously it's impossible to know what's the total truth, but anyone can deduce several things just reading, watching and hearing.

What I’m trying to say is that considering all the above commented, in my opinion Ferrari has worked hard, they haven´t had a shit car, just a not good enough car and Alonso has done a really good job.

If I were a F1 driver, believe me, I would be afraid of him, and not just because of his political skills. I really think he is relentless, at track and outside. By the way, I don´t think he would have problems being paired with any other driver in any team, it doesn´t seem to me that he is afraid of anyone, it's more something like "If I give you my best, I'll expect the best from you"

In any case, If LdM wanted to replace the driver, if the driver left Ferrari, if another really good driver came, I wouldn´t have any problem (fortunately, there are some great drivers in F1 nowadays, maybe my first choice would be Hamilton, no objective reason, just because I like how he drives), but the first thing to do, is improve the car. Great drivers go, great drivers come, the team is always there and the team needs an improved car (LdM knows perfectly that this is the main problem, I have no doubt about it)

Anyway, in my opinion Alonso will stay in Ferrari, just some egos overreacting for some days.


Excellent words. I couldn't agree more! :up:

#556 SophieB

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 05:24

Posts deleted. Topic is Luca's rebuke of Alonso, not how feasible a move to Red Bull would be - that's a different thread. Things which are also not on-topic: how good a driver/how nice a guy Sebastian Vettel is or is not. As ever, if anyone wants to query exactly why their post has been removed, get in touch via PM. Other than that, back to discussing Luca's smack-down motivation effort to his driver more directly, please.

Edited: Seriously, stay on topic.

#557 RedRocksF1

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:38

oooh stupid Luca, naive Luca. And even puts his declarations in the official website. Horner must be laughing...

This is the solution Luca, blame your driver not your engineers or management, :clap:

Only hopes for James Allison to make a hughe change, if not this year is over.

#558 MikeV1987

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:57

If your theory is that Ferrari's sales are declining due to not winning championships in the last few years, I must respectfully point out that the reality of facts absolutely destroy your theory.
Here are some stats for you (taken from Wikipedia):
2008 - 6587 cars sold
2009 - 6250 cars sold (note decline after a WCC year - totally opposite to your theory)
2010 - 6461 cars sold
2011 - 7001 cars sold
2012 - 7318 cars sold

I'm not an economist but the trend shows that I should bet on Ferrari selling a record number of cars in 2013, despite the fact that they want to limit their production to make the brand even more desireable.

These stats also show how little influence the negative talk on F1 forums (that you cited) have on what is really happening out there.


They also make way more cars than they used to, for example they make ~6000 California's a year which is on it's own assembly line. Sales have more to do with the image rather than their WCC results, even if they came last every race they would still sell a shit load of cars.

Edited by MikeV1987, 01 August 2013 - 11:59.


#559 four1

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 14:41

They also make way more cars than they used to, for example they make ~6000 California's a year which is on it's own assembly line. Sales have more to do with the image rather than their WCC results, even if they came last every race they would still sell a shit load of cars.

That's exactly the point that I was trying to make to Module but he/she still wants to insist that Ferrari's reputation is "tarnished" because it hasn't won a championship in the last 4 years. I don't know in who's eyes this "tarnished" view occurs. Certainly not the buyers who lust Ferrari cars. Not sponsors. Not tifosi (the real ones not the "temporary" ones).

Hell, even Williams and McLaren still have sponsors and loyal fans and look at their results since the beginning of this millenium.

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#560 JaredS

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 15:52

Yeah, all nice blubber, close ranks, unite and whatnot. Problem is, you may unite and close ranks all day long until becoming an inseparable homogenous unit (which, besides, Alonso has done for the last 3 and a half years), it still won't help one bit if your car isn't fast enough.

It always comes back to this one thing: a car continously fastest or joint fastest at worst for over three years. Everyone follows from that and the success it brings, NOT the other way round.


Unless of course had Alonso been able to turn around an unsuccessful team, then it would have all been down to him. I do agree with you about LdM's blubber, it means nothing without a good car. They've been closing ranks, samurai swords between their teeth etc etc and still not coming up with a top car. Alonso has been patient for 3 years, united etc. Patience runs out eventually. Yet Ferrari is not a team where their driver is expected to publicly say anything negative about them or the car. The car not being good enough was tolerated, but a comment about wanting a Red Bull for his birthday coupled with same weekend where there were rumours of him interested in going to Red Bull and manager talking with Red Bull - well that was plain ill timed and LdM got pissed off.


Well, I tell you. Because you're obsessed. Ultimately everything will sound familiar to tally with that obsession. :wave:

<shrug> You have a right to an opinion as much as anyone. It's just that I disagree. Exaggerating Alonsos mistakes isn't as convincing as you seem to believe, you know. ;)


It's always amusing to hear you think others are obsessed given your posting history ;) But sincerely, I admire your passion in this thread and robust passionate defence of Alonso. If I had to choose one or the other, then I say it's always much better to have someone being "pro-driver" than "anti-driver" and in that positive aspect you're just as passionate as the best. :up: Whilst we don't agree on many things, we'll always agree that Alonso is absolute class....on-track.

Re. Alonso's mistakes. I see that you've missed the point. My intent wasn't to exaggerate Alonso's mistakes. Au contraire, I believe he's one of the most consistent drivers and has a great ability to maximise results. In fact I said that very thing in the last sentence of my post. My intent was to simply show your folly in exaggerating Seb's mistake in the last race. You picked one rare and small mistake of Seb in the last race, where he still finished on the podium and used it to claim he is unable to maximise points when not starting from the front. Yet when I gave several examples of Alonso making even larger mistakes resulting DNF's, you recognised that as an exaggeration. In missing my point, you proved it beautifully. Neat indeed. :cool:

#561 Module

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 19:48

Re. Alonso's mistakes. I see that you've missed the point. My intent wasn't to exaggerate Alonso's mistakes. Au contraire, I believe he's one of the most consistent drivers and has a great ability to maximise results. In fact I said that very thing in the last sentence of my post. My intent was to simply show your folly in exaggerating Seb's mistake in the last race. You picked one rare and small mistake of Seb in the last race, where he still finished on the podium and used it to claim he is unable to maximise points when not starting from the front. Yet when I gave several examples of Alonso making even larger mistakes resulting DNF's, you recognised that as an exaggeration. In missing my point, you proved it beautifully. Neat indeed. :cool:


:clap: :up:

#562 dublin

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:33

Perhaps those figures: 8 podiums in 3,5 years vs 38 podiums and 11 wins, gives you the clue what is going on.

In 2006 Massa had his first season with Ferrari, he had MS as teammate (who was still at his prime), his first year results were: 6 podiums including 2 wins. Thats two podiums less, and two wins more, what he had in last three and half years.

Final standing of 2006:

Alonso 134
Schumi 121
Massa 80
Fisi 72

Can you tell me with straight face that Massa is still driving on the same level he used to?



He is of course a much better driver than he was as in inexperienced raw kid back in 2006, and its amazing that anyone could believe the opposite, because that takes some serious backwards logic. You seem to not understand that there was 2 parts of the equation in F1, the driver and the car, and what the results above show is how far the level of the Ferrari cars has fallen since that time period, where even an inexperienced kid like Massa could take multiple poles and wins while now as a seasoned experienced veteran he can barely get podiums. Luca needs to close his mouth and realise his bluster is out dated. The mythos of driving for the red team is NO substitute for winning.

It might be for the Massa, Berger, Alesi's, but for a real champion like Alonso its not good enough. Alonso has shown amazing patience with the incompetence of this team, where year after year they have failed to produce a legitimate championship contender, and even worse, have failed to show progress towards that goal, so it's perfectly reasonable for Alonso to show a little public public frustration no matter how minute it was. Luca should prey Alonso decides to leave this rabble and consider that without him, the last 4 years would have made the early 90s look like the glory years.


Some people mention how Schumacher was always so stoic and never publicly criticized the team, but fail to realise the circumstances now are entirely different because back then the team was constantly progressing at a significant rate, while in the current era they have stagnated and gone backwards. I have no doubt the likes of Schumacher and Senna would not have been so diplomatic under such circumstances.

Edited by dublin, 06 August 2013 - 04:24.