25 replies to this topic

[eronrules]

ever since KERS was adopted by RBR, webber had the bulk of KERS overheating/failure incidents past 3 years. the latest being at Hungaroring Qualy. IIRC, during the qualy broadcast, both Martin Brundle and Croft alluded to the fact that it might be the physical size and newey design restriction/obsession that might be the cause of his persistent KERS issues. perhaps Mark knows this too cause IIRC, i've never heard him complain regarding this issues.

mark webber stats
link

Height 1.85 m
Weight 75 kg

Sebastian Vettel stats
link

Height 1.76 m
Weight 58 kg

also, often time the width of the driver (shoulder/hip) is overlooked in the stats, but may have a significant impact on the design of the footwell. perhaps marks size compromizes KERS cooling or his weight may affect battery placement within the package.

bottom line is, perhaps all the conspiracy theorist regarding 'RBR possibly sabotaging Mark's KERS' or 'Mark always gets the faulty units' were overlooking the simple fact of driver dimension could be the cause of such frequent KERS failures.

any opinion on this??? i couldn't find any info regarding KERS cooling in RBR's but do seem to rememeber seeing a channel underneath the step last year in RB 8 that might be the one.

[olliek88]

Seb has had plenty of KERS (and gearbox) issues over the years, most recently in Germany.

I think Mark doesn't "complain" about it because he's not that sort of a bloke, not someone to use excuse at every opportunity (I'm looking at you Di Resta). Heck, Mark wouldn't even use his broken shoulder blade at the end of 2010 as a reason for missing out on the title when he could easily have done so.

[Ross Stonefeld]

KERS isn't stored or cooled in the cockpit, so what difference would it make?

[SanDiegoGo]

Webber is too tall and heavy to get the most out of this Newey Red Bull. Newey does not do excess and he will have tailored his car to a smaller, lighter driver. That's just tough titties for Mark. Newey is certainly not going to compromise his design to make it suitable for two different drivers. It mainly affects weight distribution and balance. The lighter, smaller driver has more options with set up enabling a larger window of performance at many different circuits.

[mnmracer]

While Mark has had more KERS issues over the years, Sebastian has had more other issues. Overall, they're pretty much even on mechanical issues.
So is there something about Sebastian that causes his brakes to fail or his alternators to stop working?
Or is it simply a case of bad luck?

[Kalmake]

KERS adds weight and then you have less ballast to play with. As I recall this was a problem for Webber's RBR in the early days of KERS. Shouldn't be an issue anymore since minimum weight has gone up.

[joshb]

I doubt his size helps the situation, maybe affect cooling somewhat in that area which may lead to more failures

[Birelman]

Lol

[pingu666]

thatll explain the lack of ryan newman to red bull rumours

[Brother Fox]

ever since KERS was adopted by RBR, webber had the bulk of KERS overheating/failure incidents past 3 years.

That first line is going to be controversial .....

[Coops3]

That first line is going to be controversial .....

Anyone got any solid figures? It certainly does seem like Mark has had almost all of the KERS issues, but maybe that's just down to perception.

[g1n]

what about the 17kg difference, how does that play in to things?

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

It doesn't play into it. What is the weight difference between Massa and Alonso? How big is Hulkenberg and Diresta?

If anything, he would have an advantage on starts if he was relatively heavier.

If that small of a difference makes F1 cars break, then they're wayyyyyy more fragile than I'd imagined.

Webber's car always has a "problem" after FP, or during the race. His weight doesn't change after FP or during the race...

[g1n]

It doesn't play into it. What is the weight difference between Massa and Alonso? How big is Hulkenberg and Diresta?

If anything, he would have an advantage on starts if he was relatively heavier.

If that small of a difference makes F1 cars break, then they're wayyyyyy more fragile than I'd imagined.

Webber's car always has a "problem" after FP, or during the race. His weight doesn't change after FP or during the race...

I was not implying that heavier driver breaks the car (which is impossible as was confirmed by many F1 engineers, drivers these days cannot break cars by just their driving styles). I do remember though that lighter drivers have more ballast to move around the car to improve their setup, heavier drivers do not have this luxury. This is a bit off topic though

Edited by g1n, 31 July 2013 - 23:09.

[Brother Fox]

Anyone got any solid figures? It certainly does seem like Mark has had almost all of the KERS issues, but maybe that's just down to perception.

I agree, but any time spent in the Vettel v Webber threads and you'll see some people convinced that Vettel has all the bad luck.

[eronrules]

well it seems Webbo did react to hungary KERS failure

http://ibnlive.in.co...09969-5-24.html

"KERS, gearbox, you name it...driving the car so far off the potential is unbelievable and so massively frustrating," the Australian said after qualifying at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

"We have to get on top of the problems, we can't race the car like this," said Webber, who is leaving Formula One at the end of the season to drive for Porsche in Le Mans endurance racing. I can't question the guys' efforts in the garage," he added. "The guys are there, the conditions are horrible to work in. They are working their nuts off but I can't answer why there are issues again."

Webber, who is a lot taller than Vettel, said the KERS packaging and positioning was the same on both Red Bulls.

there is a more elaborate thread on 'F1techinical' on Webber's KERS issues, i suggest people to visit that

http://www.f1technic...c...06&start=30

one interesting pic is the possible positioning of KERS battery pack , it might be under the fuel tank or under the survival cell

one interesting read is this article written by ScarbsF1 regarding RBR's floor mounted super-capacitor for 2012, he believed that, due to heat and vibration, redbull switched the position of KERS package from 'under the gearbox in 2011 to under the floor in 2012'

2011 was Red Bulls first year with KERS, having chosen not to run it in 2009 as it compromised their design too much. As is typical for Newey, Marshal and their design team the KERS installation was unique and uncompromising, with its energy storage in two packs either side of the gearbox and a smaller unit inside the gearbox. Reliability issues plagued the team throughout the year, with the batteries succumbing to heat and vibration....

Now the energy storage appears to be slightly revised, with the unit inside the gearbox swapped for floor mounted units....

The two carbon fibre cases are closed with aluminium tops and are provided with electrical and cooling connections. They sit in the final section of flat floor known as the boat tail....

if this is the system adopted by RBR, then it may indicate slightly different cockpit design for vettel and MArk, specially regarding to cooling channel design. again i aint an expert on this, so any speculation should be taken with a pinch of NaCl.

Edited by eronrules, 01 August 2013 - 06:39.

[lbennie]

Answering the OP; yes:

[apoka]

I remember there was speculation that the rise in minimum weight (when was that?) would benefit Webber. However, the performance gap and the number of issues appear to be largely unaffected in hindsight.

[mnmracer]

I agree, but any time spent in the Vettel v Webber threads and you'll see some people convinced that Vettel has all the bad luck.

You are both not answering his question (do you have the figures), and your second statement is false. People are just saying, it's not as one-sided as it is made out to be, they're pretty even on bad luck.

[mnmracer]

Anyone got any solid figures? It certainly does seem like Mark has had almost all of the KERS issues, but maybe that's just down to perception.

Stilll double checking, but give or take one or two, these are approximately the figures.

Since its introduction on the Red Bull Racing car in 2011, their KERS units have KERS had issues 15 times in qualifying and races: 9 times by Mark Webber, 6 times by Sebastian Vettel.
Since Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel became team-mates in 2009, both have had 47 mechanical issues in qualifying and races (85 GPs): 24 mechanical issues by Sebastian Vettel, 23 mechanical issues by Mark Webber. Since 2009, Sebastian Vettel has retired due to a mechanical issue 7 times, to Mark Webber 3 times.

[handel]

I remember there was speculation that the rise in minimum weight (when was that?) would benefit Webber. However, the performance gap and the number of issues appear to be largely unaffected in hindsight.

The logic for this is hard to follow, do you know what argument people were using?

Lets use some example figures (they'e not the spec ones I believe)

Car minimum weight = 640kg
Driver 1 weight = 80kg
Driver 1 car max weight = 560kg

Trim 20kg off the driver and the car has to be 20kg lighter. The lighter driver can 'spend' that extra weight on a heavier car. Since F1 cars could be a lot lighter if they had to be the extra weight is usually spent on ballast as low down as possible which helps CoG and contributes to getting that perfect balance.

[SanDiegoGo]

Yes, the weight issue primarily affect race performance rather than any KERS issue. Having 17kg to place around the car more over than your team mate gives you more scope for balance and gives an edge in set up. May just be tenths, but that is all it takes these days. The KERS issue may indeed be down to any differences in placement between the two cars. All tolerances on an F1 car are critical. if it goes over critical, it fails. If it operates below critical, it is wasted performance. That's how close it really is. In F1 critical just means optimum.

Edited by SanDiegoGo, 01 August 2013 - 14:40.

[Lee Nicolle]

I suspect Mark was over 75k when he was a tall skinny kid racing Formula Ford.
Really even with minimum weights it still disadvantages real men. eg 6 foot plus with broad frames, like Mark.
Probably the cockpit dimensions should be made a bit bigger so the taller drivers have less disadvantage.
F1 is becoming a place for jockey size drivers. If Seb is 58 kilo he is near anorexic, as is Mark at 75. Who I reckon is taller than 6'1. I am and he was taller than me when speaking with him and his crew in FF days.
For me getting rid of KERs would be a great step forward in F1. Like so many things it is so rinkydink and really not racing. And one less thing to go wrong.
As for KERS failures Mark sure seems to have had them more. He has done whole races without it and has missed qualifying well too due to failures.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Look at a picture of Vettel or the other shorter drivers. They've got a bit of 'puppy fat' still. The taller guys are the only ones who are truly lean.

[Brother Fox]

I was 73kg when I left school, at 6' tall. That was from playing a shitload of basketball with no concern for diet etc.
So Webber could easily be at or under 75kg and while looking pretty thin is a long way from problematic.

[plumtree]

Even this is probably not accurate but the weight information in the opening post has got to be outdated. It's apparent that Vettel has gained weight(muscles) over the years. He's not the skinny kid that people remember anymore. 10cm/10kg difference would still matter with the ultra tight packaging policy of RB cars though.

Vettel http://f1grandprix.m...dapest_2013.jpg
Webber http://cdn-0.motorsp...560600/s1_1.jpg

Look at a picture of Vettel or the other shorter drivers. They've got a bit of 'puppy fat' still. The taller guys are the only ones who are truly lean.

Yeah, all those 18x cm-tall guys are visibly leaner.

Edited by plumtree, 02 August 2013 - 01:48.