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Ferrari considering LMP1 return?


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#1 anbeck

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 17:54

This is the first time I hear about it, but AMuS reports that Ferrari is considering returning to top level endurance racing. The idea is that 2014 F1 power units would need relatively little reworking to work in endurance prototypes. Furthermore, the F1 teams' wind tunnels are not operated to full capacity due to the RRA.

Apperently the decision will be made this year, and if it is positive, AMuS thinks that 2015 is a likely date.

Porsche vs. Ferrari at Le Mans.... wow! I know, seeing Alonso and Massa or Hülkenberg or Bianchi at Le Mans is not very likely, but the mere thought is awesome.

Is it mentioned anywhere else?

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#2 Massa

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 17:57

It would be FANTASTIC

I think Fisichella, Géné, De la Rosa and Kobayashi would be in the team for Le Mans.

Edited by Massa, 31 July 2013 - 17:58.


#3 ElJefe

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 18:01

That would be a dream come true for every petrolhead: Porsche vs Ferrari at Le Mans. I don't see it happening however, as I think that Ferrari can not afford to divert any resources from F1 given the recent lack of success.

#4 John Player

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 18:04

That would be fking great

#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 18:06

I can see them supplying engines if it's relatively easy and it makes them some money, but I'm not sure there's enough reasons to go the full chassis/team route.

#6 BRG

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 18:25

It would be very nice to see Ferrari back in top level sports-cars but I fear it is just a story on a par with the perennial 'VW/Audi/Porsche to enter F1' rumour.

#7 ZuTiMa

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 18:47

Posted Image
I would love it if it is true!!

If german Designer Sasha Selipanov would have his way , the Ferrari enrty for Le Mans would look like this. Brilliant!
link

Edited by ZuTiMa, 31 July 2013 - 18:52.


#8 XOR

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 19:03

I came

#9 F1Champion

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 19:12

I doubt it. To win at Le Mans you need most of the current F1 team to work on the car and that ain't gonna happen.

#10 OSX

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 19:17

This is the first time I hear about it, but AMuS reports that Ferrari is considering returning to top level endurance racing. The idea is that 2014 F1 power units would need relatively little reworking to work in endurance prototypes. Furthermore, the F1 teams' wind tunnels are not operated to full capacity due to the RRA.

Apperently the decision will be made this year, and if it is positive, AMuS thinks that 2015 is a likely date.

Porsche vs. Ferrari at Le Mans.... wow! I know, seeing Alonso and Massa or Hülkenberg or Bianchi at Le Mans is not very likely, but the mere thought is awesome.

Bring it on! :up:

#11 Victor_RO

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 19:29

As much as I'd like to see this happen, I think it's just Ferrari trying to give themselves a bargaining chip against the powers that be in F1. Like the 637 CART single-seater back in the 1980s.

#12 Lemans

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 21:06

Ferrari must be masochistic. Haven't they had enough beatings at the hands of Porsche at Le Mans already?


#13 Markn93

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 21:18

Posted Image
I would love it if it is true!!

I don't think you're allowed to post pornography on this website :love:

#14 SenorSjon

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 21:38

They could have more engine and car development than in current day F1.

Nice impression. Do they park it at dusk and race on at dawn? :p
It looks gorgeus, notice the 27 start number on the side... the memories!

#15 Markn93

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 21:40

They could have more engine and car development than in current day F1.

Nice impression. Do they park it at dusk and race on at dawn? :p
It looks gorgeus, notice the 27 start number on the side... the memories!

Night-vision tear-offs my friend. The next big advancement in helmet design :smoking:

#16 PNSD

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 21:46

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HAPPEN!

Sports cars is on its way back to the top, and Ferrari entering would FORCE a couple other manufactures in LMP1 too.

I hate that the GT categories are not taken as seriously as they should be publicly...

#17 muramasa

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 22:07


They used to participate in LMP1 or equivalent category before?

#18 anbeck

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 22:26

They used to participate in LMP1 or equivalent category before?


I think the most recent Le Mans 24 hours start in the LMP class was in 1997, IIRC.

EDIT: With the 333 SP.

Edited by anbeck, 31 July 2013 - 22:27.


#19 Lazy

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 22:44

Posted Image
I would love it if it is true!!

If german Designer Sasha Selipanov would have his way , the Ferrari enrty for Le Mans would look like this. Brilliant!
link

That is a fantastic looking car.

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#20 noikeee

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 23:57

As if being beaten regularly in F1 these days wasn't enough, they want to take a hit from Porsche, Audi and Toyota in LMP cars as well? I'm not saying it's impossible for such a prestigious experienced manufacturer like Ferrari to win Le Mans or the World Championship, but it's gonna take a giant investment and a hell of a lot of work.

But hey the more competitors the better, it would certainly be fun to watch.

#21 JHSingo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 00:09

These rumours have been doing the rounds long enough to make me believe they're serious about it, and it is more likely to happen than a few of you believe.

I'd love it to happen. Ferrari always used to run a sports car programme alongside the F1 team, so why not?

It'd definitely increase the media exposure the WEC gets, and probably put it more in the public conscience too.

The ironic thing is how the WEC could probably end up with more manufacturers than F1. Audi, Toyota, Porsche, Nissan, Honda, and Ferrari? Yes please. I wonder what Bernie and his circus would make of that?

Edited by JHSingo, 01 August 2013 - 00:20.


#22 William Hunt

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 00:16

I think the most recent Le Mans 24 hours start in the LMP class was in 1997, IIRC.

EDIT: With the 333 SP.


But the 333SP entered in Le Mans were never factory cars.

The last Scuderia Ferrari factory effort was in 1973. At Le Mans 1973 Ferrari entered three 312PB's with Jacky Ickx (Bel) & Brian Redman (GB) on # 15, Arturo Merzario (Ita) & Carlos Pace (Bra) on # 16 and Tim Schenken (Aus) & Carlos Reutemann (Arg) on # 17.

Only car nr 16 finished in 2nd place after the winning Matra of Henri Pescarolo & Gérard Larrousse.

But Ickx & Redman did win the 1000km of Monza and the 1000km of Nürburgring that year, enough for Ferrari to finish 2nd in the 1973 constructors tables ahead of Porsche, Mirage & Lola but behind Matra.

During 1973 there were strikes in the Ferrari factory, they even missed the German F1 GP because of that (Ickx drove a McLaren to 2nd place there only to leave Ferrari to Lotus during the winter) and the F1 car was a total flop. So to concentrate on F1 Enzo Ferrari decided to stop the sportscar program, which had been as important as the F1 program from the end of the '40s until 1973. Back in those days the World Championship of Sportscars was almost or just as prestigious as F1. Ferrari never entered another factory car since 1973. I would love to see them come back and battle against Porsche, Audi, Toyota and who maybe also Nissan or Honda. The battles between Ferrari, Porsche & Ford (with the GT40) were legendary.

#23 BrawnGeePee

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 00:20

Ferrari should sort out their current car's underperformance in the GTEPro Class first before moving in with another ambitious project.

With the Scuderia being now aware that WEC is emerging to be a more popular these days, Bernie's Formula One should really be worried when it comes to the commercial stakeholding competition.

#24 JHSingo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 00:21

Ferrari should sort out their current car's underperformance in the GTEPro Class first before moving in with another ambitious project.


It's nothing to do with the car. It's to do with three letters. BOP.

#25 HaydenFan

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 00:23

I can see them supplying engines if it's relatively easy and it makes them some money, but I'm not sure there's enough reasons to go the full chassis/team route.


With the rules allowing the V6 F1 engine, shouldn't be difficult to add another couple to the order sheets.

#26 BrawnGeePee

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 00:41

It's nothing to do with the car. It's to do with three letters. BOP.

But if Ferrari can't even navigate themselves in this Balance of Performance rulebook in a slower GTEPro, what more could they get once they step up with the more high-profile and demanding LMP1?

#27 Thomas99

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:28

Awesome.

Webber in Porsche v Bruno Senna in a Ferrari?

#28 Brother Fox

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:13




Awesome.

Webber in Porsche v Bruno Senna in a Ferrari?



It would be FANTASTIC

I think Fisichella, Géné, De la Rosa and Kobayashi would be in the team for Le Mans.


Although I have nothing against Bruno, that ... ^ ... sounds much more exciting

#29 phoenix101

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:25

Entering LMP1 as factory team is a precarious endeavor. ACO is going to be making an equivalency formula for different fuel types, and it's going to degenerate into a debauched political affair. It's already contentious between Audi and Toyota. However, building cars for privateers could be lucrative, especially if they do something interesting and cost-effective like using a production block and cylinder casting. I wish the rules would have stipulated stock block and cylinder head castings for all competitors.

#30 Victor_RO

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:08

I wish the rules would have stipulated stock block and cylinder head castings for all competitors.


That's one of the engine rules for LMP2, stock block engines are used there to save costs, but LMP1 from 2014 is a powertrain development formula, with the restrictions being fuel allowance (linked to the amount of energy the car can recover and to the energy content of the fuel).

#31 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:23

Max's "World Engine" lives!

#32 JHSingo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:53

But if Ferrari can't even navigate themselves in this Balance of Performance rulebook in a slower GTEPro, what more could they get once they step up with the more high-profile and demanding LMP1?


Because it is completely out of their hands. BOP is basically luck of the draw these days, and who can hide their true pace the best, and everyone knows it. Look at the way the new Porsches were suspiciously off the pace at both Silverstone and Spa, but then mysteriously a lot faster at the biggest race of the year such that they get a 1-2 finish. Aston Martin, who didn't want to get nailed too much, were trying their very best not to go too quickly at Spa after dominating Silverstone.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the F458 (as they proved by winning Pro in 2012), it is just that, as with a lot of forms of motorsport these days, you get punished for being too fast for your rivals.

As Kobayashi said after Le Mans, it's more like Balance of Politics these days, not Balance of Performance.

Sorry...I've rather dragged this off topic now. :blush:

#33 William Hunt

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 15:38

http://grandprix247....totype-project/

#34 phoenix101

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 18:37

That's one of the engine rules for LMP2, stock block engines are used there to save costs, but LMP1 from 2014 is a powertrain development formula, with the restrictions being fuel allowance (linked to the amount of energy the car can recover and to the energy content of the fuel).


Stock block and cylinder head should be the rule for LMP1 as well. LMP2 is going to be BoP and it's air-restricted so it's not like LMP1 and LMP2 overlap for the manufacturers or fans.

Converting and optimizing engines to run on alternative biofuels isn't beyond the manufacturers' capabilities, and it's not like production engines are technologically prohibitive or incompatible with energy recapture. All of the sportscar and luxury marques offer about the same sophistication so production-based engines have a fair amount of parity as well. If they use production engines, the major manufacturing groups have a legitimate reason to enter multiple marques. VAG might be interested in running a V6 diesel, flat-six turbo, V10, W12 turbo, W16 turbo, which would require the use of Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti.

They should ban telemetry as well. Nothing good comes of letting the engineers babysit the cars from beginning to end. They can download updates via hardline connection during pitstops.

#35 Henri Greuter

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 18:40



I doubt if Ferrari really would do it, since it causes too much distraction on the F1 efforts.
On the other hand, I sincerely believe that the already mentioned Indycar 637 that is generally said to be a bargaining tool instead of a serious project was a far and far more serious project that should have raced had there not been a change of heart at the about very last moment possible.



Comment in general, perhaps a distraction of the thread. But it surprises me to read that the 1.6 liter engine would be an interesting option for long distance racing. For an endurance engine its capacity appears to be very small. Certainly when compared with what the American builders of GT cars think to be the necessary requrement for a Le Mans car engine: Behemoth oversized big block. OK, GTs are something else then lightweight sportscars but nevertheless...


Henri

#36 BRG

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 19:12

Comment in general, perhaps a distraction of the thread. But it surprises me to read that the 1.6 liter engine would be an interesting option for long distance racing. For an endurance engine its capacity appears to be very small. Certainly when compared with what the American builders of GT cars think to be the necessary requrement for a Le Mans car engine: Behemoth oversized big block.

Renault won Le Mans with a 2 litre turbo in 1978.

And when did a large American engine win last - not since the last GT40 win, I think?

#37 byrkus

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 19:13

These rumours have been doing the rounds long enough to make me believe they're serious about it, and it is more likely to happen than a few of you believe.


True... Those rumours crawl around at least since some years ago, when Luca di Montezemolo waved the french Tricolore to officially start the 24 hour Le Mans race. Seems that ACO is very keen for Ferrari's return in top flight, specially in the wake of potential fight between Audi, Toyota and Porsche. It could be just CLASSIC, and a true racing fan dream come true. :) :clap:


#38 phoenix101

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 19:38

Comment in general, perhaps a distraction of the thread. But it surprises me to read that the 1.6 liter engine would be an interesting option for long distance racing. For an endurance engine its capacity appears to be very small. Certainly when compared with what the American builders of GT cars think to be the necessary requrement for a Le Mans car engine: Behemoth oversized big block. OK, GTs are something else then lightweight sportscars but nevertheless...


It is a bit small, especially since the last fuel-efficiency formula favored large displacement turbocharged engines, downspeeded to reduce reciprocating friction. However, we don't have any indication that Ferrari will actually be racing a 1.6L V6. Perhaps the F1 engine regulations are conducive to bore and stroke modifications for other prototype applications. IIRC, LMP1 fuel regulations are only going to allow for horsepower output around 550hp? That should help make a small engine more competitive, imo.

#39 Red17

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 20:24

As much as I would love to see a return of Ferrari the cynic in me says that it's unlikely.

Could be a coincidence, but didn't Ferrari quit around the time LdM entered?
I know they did a brief return with Dallara, but a proper P1 challenge has long been overdue.

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#40 Henri Greuter

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:28

Renault won Le Mans with a 2 litre turbo in 1978.

And when did a large American engine win last - not since the last GT40 win, I think?


I think the largest winning engines in recent years were the Jaguar V12 and the Mercedes in the Sauber.

But please, I did point out already, but maybe not good enought, it least within GT racing the trend appears to be for ever larger engines, starting with the arrival of Vipers and Corvettes in the late 90s. They event phased out the turbocharged 911s, long a respected value at Le Mans in GTs.
And let me make this clear too: I certainly don't mind to see the trand go back to smaller engines in both LMPs and GTs because I consider big block technolgy a dead end street in the current times.
From me: More much respect for Lancia finishing fifth in 1981 with a 1.425 liter turbocharged Beta Montecarlo than for any class victory of the American built `locomotors` taken off the rails they normally run on.
(And V12 Astons and Ferraris for that matter)

Henri

#41 sheepgobba

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:08

Ferrari left Le Mans to focus on their F1 program.

They should focus on their current F1 program and win a championship before they decide to go to Le Mans.

#42 Henri Greuter

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:46

Ferrari left Le Mans to focus on their F1 program.

They should focus on their current F1 program and win a championship before they decide to go to Le Mans.




Thinking along the same line: Maybe Mercedes Benz should leave the DTM and make the resources that take available to the F1 project.

Henri

#43 anbeck

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:47

Ferrari left Le Mans to focus on their F1 program.

They should focus on their current F1 program and win a championship before they decide to go to Le Mans.


With Resource Restriction, they just cannot throw all their people at it. Maybe they have some now unused resources (wind tunnel, personnel, also in their engine department), which just cannot be used right now to help their F1 car. So instead of firing them, why not put them to use somewhere else?

It might even be a way to circumvent the RRA! If Le Mans engines are similar, they might do a lot of testing with their LMP prototype and use these insights on their F1 power unit, who knows?

#44 JHSingo

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 11:14

Ferrari left Le Mans to focus on their F1 program.

They should focus on their current F1 program and win a championship before they decide to go to Le Mans.


:rolleyes: F1 isn't the be all and end all of racing, you know.

Back when Enzo was still alive, sports car racing was as important (and Le Mans in particular possibly even more important) as the Grand Prix team.

I wonder what the man would think to the state of Ferrari today...

#45 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 11:22

I hate that the GT categories are not taken as seriously as they should be publicly...


The last ~3 years have been utter s*** for (both ACO and FIA) GT racing as it has basically become a joke because of Balance of Performance and waivers. Gone are the days of proper GT racing unfortunately

I know this is all daydreaming but hopefully Ferrari finally decides that they need more than AF Corse's efforts for sportscars and go head to head with Porsche in P1. Couldn't care less what happens with the F1

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 August 2013 - 11:29.


#46 ZuTiMa

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 11:35

With Resource Restriction, they just cannot throw all their people at it. Maybe they have some now unused resources (wind tunnel, personnel, also in their engine department), which just cannot be used right now to help their F1 car. So instead of firing them, why not put them to use somewhere else?

It might even be a way to circumvent the RRA! If Le Mans engines are similar, they might do a lot of testing with their LMP prototype and use these insights on their F1 power unit, who knows?


This was my thought also....

#47 Elissa

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 11:46

The ironic thing is how the WEC could probably end up with more manufacturers than F1. Audi, Toyota, Porsche, Nissan, Honda, and Ferrari? Yes please. I wonder what Bernie and his circus would make of that?


It would make my day to see this happen, some people in F1 are quite derogatory about sportscars, it would be a nice middle finger back at them.

It found it funny seeing the F1 media's comments about Mark Webber retiring and a lot of them missed the point that Webber chose to move to sportscars despite F1 options, the spoof headlines saying 'Webber Returns to Racing' made me chuckle no end.

Realistically sportscar racing won't be able to compete with F1 in terms of popularity, but for manufacturers the marketing kudos from winning Le Mans etc is priceless.

I don't see Ferrari coming in anytime soon, but who knows, maybe in 5 years they will be, makes sense to retain those idle engineers. If it's to circumvent RRA I'm surprised Red Bull haven't already announced plans for 3 or 4 WEC teams :rotfl:

On a tangent I'd love to see Michelin come into F1 and use their 'Slickmediates' (a slick intermediate tire)....

Edited by Elissa, 02 August 2013 - 11:47.


#48 PayasYouRace

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 11:57

Posted Image
I would love it if it is true!!

If german Designer Sasha Selipanov would have his way , the Ferrari enrty for Le Mans would look like this. Brilliant!
link



Make it happen :love:

OK seriously, it would be amazing to see a works Ferrari in LMP.

#49 sheepgobba

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:47

:rolleyes: F1 isn't the be all and end all of racing, you know.

Back when Enzo was still alive, sports car racing was as important (and Le Mans in particular possibly even more important) as the Grand Prix team.

I wonder what the man would think to the state of Ferrari today...


Where did I say F1 was the be it all? :rolleyes:

All I stated the team should win a championship before going back to Le Mans

#50 JHSingo

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 14:16

It would make my day to see this happen, some people in F1 are quite derogatory about sportscars, it would be a nice middle finger back at them.

It found it funny seeing the F1 media's comments about Mark Webber retiring and a lot of them missed the point that Webber chose to move to sportscars despite F1 options, the spoof headlines saying 'Webber Returns to Racing' made me chuckle no end.

Realistically sportscar racing won't be able to compete with F1 in terms of popularity, but for manufacturers the marketing kudos from winning Le Mans etc is priceless.

I don't see Ferrari coming in anytime soon, but who knows, maybe in 5 years they will be, makes sense to retain those idle engineers. If it's to circumvent RRA I'm surprised Red Bull haven't already announced plans for 3 or 4 WEC teams :rotfl:

On a tangent I'd love to see Michelin come into F1 and use their 'Slickmediates' (a slick intermediate tire)....


It annoys me how the F1 media bangs on about Mark's supposed "retirement". Retirement infers he is not going to race anything, at all, which we know to not be true. You wouldn't say you were "retiring" if you were going from one job, to another.

But yes, the more sports car racing gets up F1's nose, the better. I can't imagine what Joe Saward's reaction would be if Ferrari do make an LMP1 car... :rotfl:


All I stated the team should win a championship before going back to Le Mans


Why?

Edited by JHSingo, 02 August 2013 - 14:17.