41 replies to this topic

[Darkmninya]

Every Race I just keep thinking without DRS there would be the same Boring Races we got 2011 and Overtaking would be near to impossible.

If we take for Example Ungarn Vettel vs Grosjean , Grosjean was nearly 2 Seconds faster in the Same Stint ( Vettel drove 1:29 ) and but he couldnt overtake and that was with DRS. Without DRS he would be dreaming even come near to Vettel.

Same goes with Germany , Grosjean was faster and couldnt overtake Vettel with DRS, without DRS he would be dreaming again to come close to him.


That was just 2 Examples . same goes with other Drivers , Without DRS we would have boring Races almost on every Circuit,where Qualifying =Race. What do u think?

Edited by Darkmninya, 01 August 2013 - 15:55.

[akshay380]

No. Watch Hamilton* in 2010.

PS: DRS was used from 2011 season.

*: Just example. Not getting into if he is the best overtaker etc.

Edited by akshay380, 01 August 2013 - 15:59.

[Baddoer]

This will be official DRS praise thread.

[Kimbo]

Depends on the circuit.

[BoschKurve]

Every Race I just keep thinking without DRS there would be the same Boring Races we got 2011 and Overtaking would be near to impossible.

If we take for Example Ungarn Vettel vs Grosjean , Grosjean was nearly 2 Seconds faster in the Same Stint ( Vettel drove 1:29 ) and but he couldnt overtake and that was with DRS. Without DRS he would be dreaming even come near to Vettel.

Same goes with Germany , Grosjean was faster and couldnt overtake Vettel with DRS, without DRS he would be dreaming again to come close to him.


That was just 2 Examples . same goes with other Drivers , Without DRS we would have boring Races almost on every Circuit,where Qualifying =Race. What do u think?

We would have overtakes because of the tires. The operating windows being what they are almost ensure that no two cars are within in the same window.

But really, that you are even asking this question means you must not have watched a lot of F1 ever. The sport was never about copious amounts of overtaking. Yet when overtakes did happen, they were enjoyable to watch because they had immense value placed on them. Watching a driver work for that overtake lap after lap is a far more satisfying feeling than this contrived gimmick bullshit known as DRS.

Also, the Hungaroring across multiple eras has never been friendly for overtaking. It's a driver's circuit and rather enjoyable to watch races at because it's a circuit where DRS means so little. Want to overtake there? Better grow a set.

[SpaMaster]

There would of course be overtakes without DRS. It may not be as many as we have now, but it would be there and more fair. Some circuits would still need some changes to promote racing. (Hungaroring, Barcelona and Valencia) The tyres have facilitated much more overtaking these days.

[redreni]

Of course there would. If a car on 2-lap-old tyres comes up behind a car on 20-lap-old tyres it's going straight past, isn't it, DRS or not?

Even what look like boring, easy, motorway-style overtakes with DRS along the main straight very often could not be achieved by DRS alone - it's also crucial for the overtaking car to have had the extra mechanical grip to allow him to stay close through the previous corner, and the better traction to allow him to stay close under acceleration and pick up the tow, both of which come from superior tyre performance. If you went back to the 2010 rubber, DRS in my view would be insufficient to produce much overtaking. If there had been DRS at Abu Dhabi in 2010 I still don't think Alonso could have passed Petrov.

[Coops3]

DRS overtakes tend to be less risky. It seems likely to me that sometimes drivers will be reluctant to make a more risky overtake when they can just wait until the DRS zone and make an easy pass. If that's the case, then how many better, more exciting overtakes has DRS deprived us of?

[muramasa]

we need artificial tyre and DRS because aero is too sensitive and too refined, not the other way around.

I know thread like this always turns into Bridestone bashing from people who's ignorant and have very short memory, but people forget modern cars are actually very close to each other, engine is rev limited, and more than anything the aero is way too sensitive and refined.

Regarding cars being very close, 08-09 was peak, top 15 cars withing 1 sec was usual. Even now, Caterham and Marrusia are deadlock at bottom but pace wise they are actually quite close to top teams. Field got extremely tight since mid 00s.
Early 00's throughout 90s, 80s, the field was alot more spread than it is now.

It's clear what is fundamental problem and what should be solved, but F1 keeps avoiding to address the core issues and instead playing with pathetic solutions like fragile tyres and DRS.

[SpaMaster]

Of course there would. If a car on 2-lap-old tyres comes up behind a car on 20-lap-old tyres it's going straight past, isn't it, DRS or not?

If somebody who is three-stopping and has fresher tyres finds himself behind a car that is two-stopping and on old tyres, so be it. That is still racing.

[smitten]

Every Race I just keep thinking without DRS there would be the same Boring Races we got 2011 and Overtaking would be near to impossible.

So you equate overtaking and excitement?

Personally, I think the excitement is in watching a driver TRY to pass another, not when they press a button and sail by.

[TomNokoe]

We still have boring races because DRS is over-powered, most of the time. Works both ways. DRS was never the answer, it just appeases the bulk of viewers.

[Nikolay]

DRS overtakes tend to be less risky. It seems likely to me that sometimes drivers will be reluctant to make a more risky overtake when they can just wait until the DRS zone and make an easy pass. If that's the case, then how many better, more exciting overtakes has DRS deprived us of?

While I agree with you in general, this year's extremely fragile tyres (the original ones) would hardly allow lots of "exiting overtakes". This said, 2 DRS zones are probably too much at many tracks.

[joshb]

We would have overtakes because of the tires. The operating windows being what they are almost ensure that no two cars are within in the same window.

But really, that you are even asking this question means you must not have watched a lot of F1 ever. The sport was never about copious amounts of overtaking. Yet when overtakes did happen, they were enjoyable to watch because they had immense value placed on them. Watching a driver work for that overtake lap after lap is a far more satisfying feeling than this contrived gimmick bullshit known as DRS.

Also, the Hungaroring across multiple eras has never been friendly for overtaking. It's a driver's circuit and rather enjoyable to watch races at because it's a circuit where DRS means so little. Want to overtake there? Better grow a set.

I really appreciated the GP2 lead battle in Race 1. Had that been in F1, Palmer would've got by very quickly down the straight but actually it took him quite a while and a few attempts to nail it

[spacekid]

Why is the defence of DRS always referred back to 2009ish or around that period? What about the excitement of racing in 1996-2000, for instance?

Anyway, I suppose it all depends on whether you think there is a difference between a racing overtake, and one car driving past another.

If all you want to see is one car driving past another, lots of times during a race, then yes DRS is amazing.

[jonpollak]

There'd be the odd overtake.

Jp

[Niceone]

Why is the defence of DRS always referred back to 2009ish or around that period? What about the excitement of racing in 1996-2000, for instance?

Yes defenders of DRS could take that 1996-2000 era as another example. Number of overtakes during one GP on average:

2009: 14,35
1996-2000: 14,59
2001-2005: 14,35
2006-2010: 18,06

Number of overtakes doubled in 2010 and it's not all about wet races.

[redreni]

If somebody who is three-stopping and has fresher tyres finds himself behind a car that is two-stopping and on old tyres, so be it. That is still racing.

Oh, I quite agree.

What I don't agree with is the assumption that the increased number of overtakes per race since 2011 is exclusively caused by DRS. Some people think it's a good thing, others think it's too fake or whatever, but most people seem to assume it's the DRS that's making the difference. I really don't think any mere overtaking aid alone could have caused the kind of increase in overtaking that we've had since Pirelli came in - in order to create overtaking you need to get faster cars behind slower ones on the track, and for that you need variety of strategy.

I don't mind fast degrading tyres. You wouldn't want it to be like Barcelona every week, but Barcelona was the exception not the rule. at the same time with the current aero rules and no refuelling, if there was no challenge in making the tyres last for a stint, there wouldn't be much to challenge the drivers during the race. It would be a routine matter to convert a certain qualifying position into the corresponding race result, since overtaking would be almost out of the question, not least because each car would be a bit slower than the one ahead.

[Mrluke]

Oh, I quite agree.

What I don't agree with is the assumption that the increased number of overtakes per race since 2011 is exclusively caused by DRS. Some people think it's a good thing, others think it's too fake or whatever, but most people seem to assume it's the DRS that's making the difference. I really don't think any mere overtaking aid alone could have caused the kind of increase in overtaking that we've had since Pirelli came in - in order to create overtaking you need to get faster cars behind slower ones on the track, and for that you need variety of strategy.

I don't mind fast degrading tyres. You wouldn't want it to be like Barcelona every week, but Barcelona was the exception not the rule. at the same time with the current aero rules and no refuelling, if there was no challenge in making the tyres last for a stint, there wouldn't be much to challenge the drivers during the race. It would be a routine matter to convert a certain qualifying position into the corresponding race result, since overtaking would be almost out of the question, not least because each car would be a bit slower than the one ahead.

DRS does more than you think.

Say you get within 1 second of the car in front, you get DRS down the straight and manage to get right on their gearbox for the next corner, you spend the next 3-4 corners trying to find a way past because you have been able to get so close to him, perhaps you make a mistake and fall back to ~1 second again, next time around you get back in the DRS zone and have another full lap on their gearbox.

DRS shouldnt be a free pass on the straight, it works best when helps the faster drive stay closer to the car in front over the whole lap

[spacekid]

Yes defenders of DRS could take that 1996-2000 era as another example. Number of overtakes during one GP on average:

2009: 14,35
1996-2000: 14,59
2001-2005: 14,35
2006-2010: 18,06

Number of overtakes doubled in 2010 and it's not all about wet races.

I can't tell if you've misrepresented my post on purpose or not.

I believe there is a difference between quality of racing, and the number of times cars drive past each other.

[Markn93]

Hamilton on Webber would've happened, the second one certainly (which I think is a major contender for move of the year) and probably the first as well, as they both had DRS then and Webber ran wide at the last corner. Kimi would still have got past Massa, Vettel, Grosjean and Alonso past Button, and that's just off the top of my head from the last race on a track that's notoriously hard to overtake. So yes there'd still be overtakes.

[CoolBreeze]

Personally, i don't think so. Aero aside, since they have introduced the rev limiter on the engines, there's where one of the main problem lie. If i recall, the V10s used to rev at 19,000 rpm, and the V8s were a bit lower.

How much do they rev at now? 16,000 rpm?

On a separate note, i read somewhere that MS's last Ferrari engine revved at 22,000 rpm in the final tests he conducted before his Brazil farewell in 2006.

[techspeed]

Without DRS the teams wouldn't be choosing gear ratios that allows the drivers to use it. With the slightly higher gearing when the drivers can slipstream elsewhere on the track they have a chance of overtaking instead of sitting on the limiter at the same speed as the car in front. Look at Vettel trying to overtake Button at Hungary, Red Bull base their setup on expecting to be at the front so they don't expect to have to overtake, so Vettel was stuck on the rev limiter with DRS not much faster than Button was managing without it.

For example since DRS we have a lot more overtakes into the final chicane at Spa, where DRS is not allowed but because the car are geared for DRS use they can actually slipstream on the straight and use the extra speed to pass. Before DRS the following car was stuck there bouncing off the rev limiter and didn't have a chance to overtake.

Of course these days we would still be getting all the overtakes thanks to the tyres.

[SenorSjon]

I really hate DRS. It usually takes away the fight quite soon, where you had 20 lap battles in the past, sitting on the edge of your seat to see if they can pass. Example was the GP2 race this weekend, but the last time I saw it in F1, it was Monza 2011 with Schumacher vs. Hamilton. Especially since the Mercedes was geared towards high topspeed (even higher than McLaren with DRS). I just see to many cars bouncing on the rev limiter when trying to overtake. No more extra revs to pass. It could damage the engine, but you could also win a place.;)

Since mid '00, a lot of rules were designed to hinder overtaking:
- V10 > V8, so less power to overtake
- rev limit
- no engine development, so nearly no power differences.
- less than one engine/weekend. You couldn't go all-out on the engine in the final stages of the race to get that overtake.
- less than one gearbox/weekend. If I remember correctly, only the end ratio can be changed each race, the gears in between stay the same for the 5 races the gearbox is used.
- the xx part per yy races rules ban T-cars and restarts, thus less start crashes.
In 1998 (?) they introduced grooved tires and smaller cars. Both reduced mechanical grip and brought more emphasis on aero development. Bring a wider car and it is more stable in corners, even when in foul air. When the new cars in 2009 arrived, they got a hell of a lot uglier and it was tiptoeing around the main problems.

Current cars are to underpowered to let drivers power out of a different line. The most ideal line on a track becomes smaller and smaller this way.

[Disgrace]

Quantity ≠ quality.

DRS "overtakes" as they're called, or "driving past in a straight line" as they should be referred to, are currently mutilating F1 racing beyond recognition:

- Drivers are deliberately slowing down in order to be second across the DRS lines.
- Good defensive driving is quickly becoming extinct (thanks also to anti-racing tyres).
- Drivers are taking less risks (thanks also to bonehead stewarding).
- Overtaking is effectively confined to the sections of the circuit the FIA deem appropriate.
- The FIA implement DRS in areas of the track where overtaking is already possible.

Without DRS we would have boring Races almost on every Circuit,where Qualifying =Race. What do u think?

The "boring races" argument is the same claptrap Autosport/Paul Hembrey were coming out with around Barcelona when the fans started to cry enough with the mozzarella tyres. Excitement ≠ overtaking when you have strategy (which is now 100% mozzarella conservation), tension, beautiful cars (absent) and a sense of speed on good circuits (also absent). Even racing ≠ overtaking, there doesn't ultimately need to be an actual overtake (see Nurburgring race for the lead) to get a thrilling race.

DRS is ruining F1, even more than the tyres IMHO.

[alframsey]

We would have overtakes because of the tires. The operating windows being what they are almost ensure that no two cars are within in the same window.

But really, that you are even asking this question means you must not have watched a lot of F1 ever. The sport was never about copious amounts of overtaking. Yet when overtakes did happen, they were enjoyable to watch because they had immense value placed on them. Watching a driver work for that overtake lap after lap is a far more satisfying feeling than this contrived gimmick bullshit known as DRS.

Also, the Hungaroring across multiple eras has never been friendly for overtaking. It's a driver's circuit and rather enjoyable to watch races at because it's a circuit where DRS means so little. Want to overtake there? Better grow a set.

Could not agree more mate, could not agree more.

[Coops3]

Quantity ≠ quality.

DRS "overtakes" as they're called, or "driving past in a straight line" as they should be referred to, are currently mutilating F1 racing beyond recognition:

- Drivers are deliberately slowing down in order to be second across the DRS lines.
- Good defensive driving is quickly becoming extinct (thanks also to anti-racing tyres).
- Drivers are taking less risks (thanks also to bonehead stewarding).
- Overtaking is effectively confined to the sections of the circuit the FIA deem appropriate.
- The FIA implement DRS in areas of the track where overtaking is already possible.



The "boring races" argument is the same claptrap Autosport/Paul Hembrey were coming out with around Barcelona when the fans started to cry enough with the mozzarella tyres. Excitement ≠ overtaking when you have strategy (which is now 100% mozzarella conservation), tension, beautiful cars (absent) and a sense of speed on good circuits (also absent). Even racing ≠ overtaking, there doesn't ultimately need to be an actual overtake (see Nurburgring race for the lead) to get a thrilling race.

DRS is ruining F1, even more than the tyres IMHO.

"mozzarella conservation" - two words I would've never expected to be used together!

Whilst I don't think I feel quite as strongly about it as you, it's hard to really disagree with any of your points.

[SpaMaster]

DRS does more than you think.

Say you get within 1 second of the car in front, you get DRS down the straight and manage to get right on their gearbox for the next corner, you spend the next 3-4 corners trying to find a way past because you have been able to get so close to him, perhaps you make a mistake and fall back to ~1 second again, next time around you get back in the DRS zone and have another full lap on their gearbox.

DRS shouldnt be a free pass on the straight, it works best when helps the faster drive stay closer to the car in front over the whole lap

Yes, manipulated just right to our convenience..

[mgs315]

To be honest if overtakes are down to just DRS why not run F1 races like rally stages and go for the fastest time for the first lap over 305kms?

Some overtakes even with DRS use have been great. Grosjean on Massa (screw you stewards) for example. Lewis on Webber.

[NoDivergence]

Some drivers don't need DRS. I'd say that it actually hinders some who are more naturally wheel to wheel racy

[William Hunt]

Yes we would because a lot of overtakings are taking place because of differences in tyre degredation, a situation we didn't have in the Bridgestone era.

[Bleu]

Most of the overtakes where driver just "flies" past the other would have happen without DRS as well.

[DanardiF1]

To be honest if overtakes are down to just DRS why not run F1 races like rally stages and go for the fastest time for the first lap over 305kms?

Some overtakes even with DRS use have been great. Grosjean on Massa (screw you stewards) for example. Lewis on Webber.

In a sense the races are now treated as much by teams. All are fighting for clean air, all don't want on track battles because it affects them matching their computer simulated delta times.

DRS is stupid, always has been. It's never worked properly... we've never had a weekend where it's been turned off to see what happens, and all the passes it creates are just one car passing another on the straight. There is no nous to defending a position anymore (which is what made Vettel being unable to pass Button in Hungary actually very refreshing) because fighting it only serves to ruin your own race, and every driver is basically driving round worrying about matching delta lap times whilst making sure their tyres don't fall apart.

DRS is basically a device which allows drivers to get on with not racing.

[DS27]

Most of the overtakes where driver just "flies" past the other would have happen without DRS as well.

Some would, but there would probably be a fair few laps of tension before it actually happened and the moves wouldn't be over half way down the straight.

[RealRacing]

Yes

[Gorma]

There is a solution, but for some reason nobody wants that either. FIA should reintroduce groundeffect in standard form along with standardized wings.

[Sausage]

Yep, driving close behind someone is simply still not possible, drs or no. Drs is mostly aimed at casual viewers anyway, for a fan almost all races this year have been terribly boring.

[Wingcommander]

DRS is against my perception of what racing should be, but i must say that it does make the races more entertaining. I just watched a few races from 2007 & 2008 and, and man those were boring years. If someone messed up in qualifying, it was game over for them before the race even started. Cars 2-3 secs a lap faster couldnt overtake the slower ones.

I think DRS worked very well on tracks like Nurburgring and Hungaroring. It made overtaking possible, but it was still difficult. And in general we dont actually see that much overtaking between cars on same strategies. It's the performance difference of the tyres that enables the cars to be close enough for overtaking.

What i hate about DRS is not actually the device itself, but the way FIA selects the DRS zones. For some strange reason they like to put the DRS zone on the best overtaking place of the circuit, like the longest straight in Canada or the Kemmel straight in Spa.

Edited by Wingcommander, 04 August 2013 - 18:47.

[Wingcommander]

There is a solution, but for some reason nobody wants that either. FIA should reintroduce groundeffect in standard form along with standardized wings.

I vote no for standard wings but a standard floor with ground effect could be nice.

[Francesc]

Thanks to DRS, there aren't exciting battles anymore. Just straight passes.

[tmzxaar]

for a fan almost all races this year have been terribly boring.

Then I guess you weren't watching the last few laps at Silverstone ?

[spacekid]

Then I guess you weren't watching the last few laps at Silverstone ?

I never understand on the internet why the word 'almost' can't be taken to mean - this isn't an absolute statement.