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Press reports of serious financial problems at Lotus [split topic]


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#1 Yoshi

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 16:42

It looks not good. :|

Short points from this news

- Lotus is the next team, which are in deep financial trouble
- outstanding depts around 120M €
- Lopez refused several invenstors during the winter break (the debit would have been payed with those intenvestors and in addition some money for Genii
- Kimi also threat Lotus, that he won't come to the seat adaption during the winter
- Honeywell deal was just a bubble
- The employees are also get their salary not on time
- Allison was already looking for a new job already in February
- Kimi already complained those issues to Bernie
- They where some strikes and they employees took their tools at home
- So far no updates regarding the Infinity Racing deal, which means also no money from them.

http://www.motorspor...e-13080510.html

Edited by Yoshi, 05 August 2013 - 17:43.


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#2 motorhead

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 17:22

It looks not good. :|

Short points from this news

- Lotus is the next team, which are in deep financial trouble
- outstanding depts around 120k €
- Lopez refused several invenstors during the winter break (the debit would have been payed with those intenvestors and in addition some money for Genii
- Kimi also threat Lotus, that he won't come to the seat adaption during the winter
- Honeywell deal was just a bubble
- The employees are also get their salary not on time
- Allison was already looking for a new job already in February
- Kimi already complained those issues to Bernie
- They where some strikes and they employees took their tools at home
- So far no updates regarding the Infinity Racing deal, which means also no money from them.

http://www.motorspor...e-13080510.html


not looking good. The claim is that Bernie saved them from banktrupcy already last year, I don´t know how though. They have to start paying those depts which mean less developing or more sponsors...

edit: This could be the reason that Kimi won´t be driving Lotus next season

Edited by motorhead, 05 August 2013 - 17:25.


#3 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 18:21

not only will Kimi most likely not drive Lotus next year...there most likely will not be Lotus, if their depts are that bad, and I believe they are as so far everything that has been rumours about the money troubles have been true :/...I mean 120 million euros is so so much :eek: there were suppose to be news about the new investors (infinity) last week or this week..so will see.

Edited by Vesuvius, 05 August 2013 - 18:22.


#4 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 19:03

not looking good. The claim is that Bernie saved them from banktrupcy already last year, I don´t know how though. They have to start paying those depts which mean less developing or more sponsors...

edit: This could be the reason that Kimi won´t be driving Lotus next season

The Ecclestone 'help' is giving the WCC money that would be handed out at the end of the year in advance.

When it gets to factory staff salary being delayed, then that is a serious problem. I don't know if this is true or not. I hope not. But, a company would suffer if the staff start to abandon.

#5 eronrules

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:40

It looks not good. :|

Short points from this news

- Lotus is the next team, which are in deep financial trouble
- outstanding depts around 120M €
- Lopez refused several invenstors during the winter break (the debit would have been payed with those intenvestors and in addition some money for Genii
- Kimi also threat Lotus, that he won't come to the seat adaption during the winter
- Honeywell deal was just a bubble
- The employees are also get their salary not on time
- Allison was already looking for a new job already in February
- Kimi already complained those issues to Bernie
- They where some strikes and they employees took their tools at home
- So far no updates regarding the Infinity Racing deal, which means also no money from them.

http://www.motorspor...e-13080510.html


well as they say .... when it rains ... it pours


surely this means kimi probably have already made up his mind to leave enstone to milton keynes. it'd be sad for me cause i've really grown to like LotusF1.


#6 Cyanide

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 16:12

http://www.gptoday.c...ayment_rumours/

They're denying the late salaries story. But they didn't deny they have some serious debts.

#7 boldhakka

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 16:13

None of the top designers or even drivers will touch Lotus with a ten foot pole for the next few years.

#8 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 16:26

http://www.gptoday.c...ayment_rumours/

They're denying the late salaries story. But they didn't deny they have some serious debts.

They can deny all they want...yet we know that Kimi's salaries are way late all the time so why wouldn't others be as well...the team is in serious money troubles and there is all the promises from new sponsors/investors, yet nothing happends :( it's really sad, I like the team and it's full of talented people.

Edited by Vesuvius, 06 August 2013 - 16:27.


#9 Shiroo

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:36

They can deny all they want...yet we know that Kimi's salaries are way late all the time so why wouldn't others be as well...the team is in serious money troubles and there is all the promises from new sponsors/investors, yet nothing happends :( it's really sad, I like the team and it's full of talented people.

How do you know that his salaries are way late? He didn't say so, neither the team.
They probably have financial problems but taking it as given is a bit overkill.

#10 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:43

How do you know that his salaries are way late? He didn't say so, neither the team.
They probably have financial problems but taking it as given is a bit overkill.


actually both did say so, Kimi and Boullier at the last gp at Hungary...
also when teams leading driver publicly admitted to sky sports that he could skip race/races because of unpaid salaries/ financial troubles of the team then you know that the situation is very very serious. the dept problems were already mentioned last year and Kimi's win at abu dhabi saved the team, there were already then a story that team members had already decided to stop working but luckily they decided otherway around....but the fact is, the situation is very serious.

Edited by Vesuvius, 06 August 2013 - 21:43.


#11 rijole1

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 22:06

actually both did say so, Kimi and Boullier at the last gp at Hungary...
also when teams leading driver publicly admitted to sky sports that he could skip race/races because of unpaid salaries/ financial troubles of the team then you know that the situation is very very serious. the dept problems were already mentioned last year and Kimi's win at abu dhabi saved the team, there were already then a story that team members had already decided to stop working but luckily they decided otherway around....but the fact is, the situation is very serious.

This is really sad, really wish Lotus can in some way find the money to keep going on.
With or without Kimi.

#12 RaikkonenZn

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 22:28

None of the top designers or even drivers will touch Lotus with a ten foot pole for the next few years.


Really sad if this happens considering the fact that they have gone racing extremely well!

Surely there must be some angel investor waiting in the wings to help this outfit out - I mean you've got to respect Enstone for what they've done over the years with the budget they've had!

Hate to say it & I'm not trying to portray Kimi in any special light but I feel that if he doesn't stay with them, times are going to be even tougher without a driver of his calibre. If Grosjean doesn't start scoring points consistently from now till the end of the season, they should look at getting somebody like Heikki back & then stick somebody like Hulkenburg in the other car!

#13 sneaker91

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 01:11

Really sad if this happens considering the fact that they have gone racing extremely well!

Surely there must be some angel investor waiting in the wings to help this outfit out - I mean you've got to respect Enstone for what they've done over the years with the budget they've had!

Hate to say it & I'm not trying to portray Kimi in any special light but I feel that if he doesn't stay with them, times are going to be even tougher without a driver of his calibre. If Grosjean doesn't start scoring points consistently from now till the end of the season, they should look at getting somebody like Heikki back & then stick somebody like Hulkenburg in the other car!


I am bewildered why Lotus cannot get some serious sponsorship considering the performance this year. I was hoping maybe Microsoft and Nokia could be attracted to use LotusF1 as a billboard for Windows Phone 8. I thought that combination would be brilliant.

I don't want to see Kimi leave Lotus but he has to take a Red Bull or Ferrari seat if they are on offer.

Lotus management are starting to annoy me. Screwing up big time with heaps to lose.
I hope Heikki and the Hulk could be in competitive cars next year. Esp Hulkenberg

#14 seahawk

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:46

They can not get sponsors, because the marketing value of F1 is low.

Young people do care less about cars or motor racing than in the past, many people see F1 as a waste of money. Few people would make a decision on a purchase based on the participation of a brand in F1. The scandals of F1 do not help and if Bernie really is found guilty of using bribes, many firms will have to avoid F1 due to their internal ethics code of conduct. And considering the ownership of Lotus, I can see many firms not wanting to get into a boat with Geminii capital or similar investment fonds, especially not today. Just look at "saviours" of Sauber or Williams. For many international cooperations it will probably be of no value to be seen sponsoring the same team as some dubious Russian organisation or the goverment of Venezuela. In F1 there are 4 (max. 5) teams which you can sponsor without having to fear to be thrown into one bag with organisations or persons involved in dubious business practice. Those are Red Bull, Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren and (maybe) Caterham.


#15 Thomas99

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:59

This is bad news all around. Bad news for Lotus because it seems they may be over reaching to try and get a higher performance potential. Bad news for Aussie fans because Kimi will go to Red Bull and leave Ricciardo without a decent seat and bad news for the sport because Louts seems to be one of few seats that drivers can get into a race win capable car, most of the other teams are unattainable and locked down.



#16 Cyanide

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:04

In all honesty, this looks like a sinking ship if I ever saw one. I'm really sorry for Lotus, because it's full of talented people, and it was nice to see another team besides the three (Red Bull-Ferrari-McLaren) challenging for wins and the championship. But they just don't have the funds to keep the fight pumping. Infinity Racing should have been announced last week, so it's becoming more and more obvious that the deal didn't get through.

Would've loved to see Kimi take Lotus to the top in the next few tears, but if he knows about the internal situation, he'll most likely abandon ship if he hasn't already.

#17 Jazza

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:29

Pretty bad for the sport if it lost Enstone. Over the last 20 years they have won as many championships as Grove and nearly twice as many as Woking. Over those twenty years they have been very hot and cold from season to season, but they are still one of the best teams out there. Hopefully someone will buy the team and keep it alive.

#18 Disgrace

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:56

http://www.gptoday.c...ayment_rumours/

They're denying the late salaries story. But they didn't deny they have some serious debts.


The world as we know it is addicted to debt, it's not even worth them commenting on it. Late salaries on the other hand is a much bigger deal. Losing this team will be worse than losing Tyrrell was.

#19 2ms

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:15

#2 driver in championship but they can't get a sponsor to save their lives. Never seen anything like it before.

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#20 EthanM

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:21

#2 driver in championship but they can't get a sponsor to save their lives. Never seen anything like it before.



When McLaren, that have probably the best commercial department of any team in the paddock, have to rely on Perez to try and hook a deal with Carlos Slim then that should give you an indication that money out there isn't as easy to get as it once was. For F1 teams I mean.

#21 F1ultimate

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:22

If they are struggling to get sponsors with Kimi on board, then the team's income will absolutely dwindle without him. With midfield teams struggling to stay afloat, F1 is in a dire state. I can see Kimi being replaced by a young pay driver. How else will the team be able to keep up with the development race in 2014??

#22 lustigson

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:24

The world as we know it is addicted to debt, it's not even worth them commenting on it. Late salaries on the other hand is a much bigger deal. Losing this team will be worse than losing Tyrrell was.

Losing Enstone would be a massive blow to F1. The team have its roots in 1980, quadruple WDCs and triple WCCs.

#23 Jovanotti

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:25

When McLaren, that have probably the best commercial department of any team in the paddock, have to rely on Perez to try and hook a deal with Carlos Slim then that should give you an indication that money out there isn't as easy to get as it once was. For F1 teams I mean.

Yeah it's obvious that it's a lot more difficult than ten years ago, but nevertheless Lotus had sponsoring offers that would have cleared their debts, only that Lopez got greedy and sniffed the chance to make money - not that he wasn't honest about his motivation.

#24 Diablobb81

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:27

Yeah it's obvious that it's a lot more difficult than ten years ago, but nevertheless Lotus had sponsoring offers that would have cleared their debts, only that Lopez got greedy and sniffed the chance to make money - not that he wasn't honest about his motivation.


Not sponsoring offers, investment offers.

#25 d_view7

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:30

Maybe the possible sponsors are waiting to see what Raikkonen does. Raikkonen has been pretty important factor in the success of team Lotus.

#26 wrcva

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:41

The team ended 2012 in 65M Euro loss. No sponsors or other noteworthy income . So, the loss has doubled half way into the season this year... can they even finish the season?
Since Genii owns the team. The key questions are who owns Genii (other than Lopez and Lux), and the financial shape Genii is in I guess. Costs will go up even more next year with the new engine/car. So, this is not sustainable unless the F1 loss for Genii is a part of their overall business strategy (if they are making loads of money elsewhere)... Naturally this kind of negative talk about the team will not help them attract investors or sponsors either... No cash flow = bad news for all employees and an interesting dillema for Kimi from the WDC perspective... should he keep driving w/o getting paid with the risk of bankruptcy = no pay at all. Then, the next question is what could be other possibilities (if the team goes belly up mid-season) should he fiind a new mid-season ride (ie. Mark or Massa's contracts bought out for leaving early...). I guess drivers do not have any option other than keep driving as long as there is a crew to field the cars with or without pay.

#27 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:52

I'm beginning to think Formula E is going to become the main international racing series in years to come. What future does F1 have? It's full of people with their heads buried in the sand like Champ Car ended up.

#28 Hans V

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:54

Lotus posted a loss of $88 million for 2012, despite receiving a lot of Bernie-money for WCC points, for the same period, which is hugely worrying. The also posted big losses for 2010 and 2012 as well. I can’t remember exactly, but the accumulated losses for Lotus, after they “bought” the team from Renault, is a bit north (or south…) of $150 million, with debts about the same. Apparently they own a large part of the money to Lopez’ investment company Genii, but with that kind of bad debts on their books the Genii-empire must be shaking as well. Is it a coincidence that Lopez has sold of his brilliant car-collection recently? Lopez has been gambling on finding a buyer to the team he more or less got for free by Renault, but so far the Knight in shining armour hasn’t materialized yet – and investing in a debt ridden team like this is extremely risky. I do hope they find investors in addition to this new Infinity-Group, especially as Lotus seem to be the most effective team in terms of cost per point.

Joe Saward has previously reported that the latest sponsorship deals are sold with a big discount so to attract other sponsors, so there might not be a lot of fresh money coming into Genii/Lotus – and they seem to continue to haemorrhage money . BTW if the discount sponsorship deals are true that must be threatening the sponsor market for the other teams. Kimis success has also created a cash-flow problem as he is on a bonus-per-point-scheme with regular payments, while the points he accumulates doesn’t materialize to cash until after the season.

Edited by Hans V, 07 August 2013 - 09:54.


#29 lustigson

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:05

And all this when F1 overall has a yearly turnover of $1.5 billion... :(

#30 F.M.

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:06

Maybe the possible sponsors are waiting to see what Raikkonen does. Raikkonen has been pretty important factor in the success of team Lotus.

And Kimi might be waiting on what the sponsors do :p
Bit of a situation for Lotus. Sponsors won't commit until Kimi commits, Kimi won't commit until sponsors commit...

#31 spacekid

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:17

Oh dear...

As others have pointed out, the Enstone team have been very important to F1 in their various guises over the past few decades. I always normally assume that a big team like this will get bought up and continue in some form or another, but with debts like that attached to the company...

Does anyone know if the team are even preparing a 2014 car at the moment? I would expect that they are, along with the costs involved. That can't be helping.

#32 spacekid

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:18

And all this when F1 overall has a yearly turnover of $1.5 billion... :(


This might sound strange, but I actually think there's too much money in F1 - and its all in the wrong places.

I'm starting to wonder if Max might have been on to something with his budget cap.

#33 EthanM

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:21

And all this when F1 overall has a yearly turnover of $1.5 billion... :(


yes but from a sponsor point of view it makes more sense to invest in the sport as a whole (ie pay Bernie for trackside advertising) and if they need a driver deal with him directly for specific promotions rather than going to a team.

#34 Jovanotti

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:24

And all this when F1 overall has a yearly turnover of $1.5 billion... :(

The money has to be distributed differently, it's as clear as day. Maybe a few teams should boycott an event to show everyone what it'll be like without them.

#35 Shiroo

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:53

Oh dear...

As others have pointed out, the Enstone team have been very important to F1 in their various guises over the past few decades. I always normally assume that a big team like this will get bought up and continue in some form or another, but with debts like that attached to the company...

Does anyone know if the team are even preparing a 2014 car at the moment? I would expect that they are, along with the costs involved. That can't be helping.

as far as I know they are doing it since 2011? or early 2012. They already put almost all focus on new car acording to Permane cause nothing much will come out of the pipline in the factory for E21.

HOpefully soemone will appear to at least buy the team.

Though I'm grateful towards Genii and Lopez especially. They brought the team back after miserable 2009 campaign and abandon of Renault


What is the saddest part of it, it's Lotus being a top team yet they can't get enough cash... I mean what the heck.

Edited by Shiroo, 07 August 2013 - 10:55.


#36 lustigson

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:05

They already put almost all focus on new car acording to Permane cause nothing much will come out of the pipline in the factory for E21.

That's a pity. It probably means that they won't be able to beat Ferrarin to 3rd in the WCC.

On the other hand, if they are well-prepared for the 2014 season, they might get something of a head start on Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari, and perhaps even be of interest to sponsors or take-over candidates.

#37 Yoshi

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:13

Does anyone know if the team are even preparing a 2014 car at the moment? I would expect that they are, along with the costs involved. That can't be helping.


According to Premane, the Design and wind tunnel already running towards the season 2014.


#38 noikeee

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:17

#2 driver in championship but they can't get a sponsor to save their lives. Never seen anything like it before.


Exactly, it's a bizarre situation isn't it. Shows how screwed up F1 is financially when a title-fighting team can't hold it together. :well: No doubt there'll be some level of mismanagement on their part or a simply unworkable business model, but still it's just sad. We can't lose Enstone now after 30 years. :cry:

#39 sopa

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:19

Lotus isn't the most dramatic case. Brawn was leading the championship all year in 2009,yet could barely get any sponsors. Selling to Mercedes saved them.

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#40 spacekid

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:20

Thanks for the replies guys.

As lustigson said, if they have a strong 2014 program hopefully that will attract some buyers.

In many ways it has felt that F1 has flirted with disaster for a long time and always found a way to keep going. I'm pretty used to it. But the 'new team' initiative has bombed pretty badly. Its difficult to see where replacements will come from if teams flounder. When are the Chinese going to start pumping some money in?

#41 noikeee

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:22

Lotus isn't the most dramatic case. Brawn was leading the championship all year in 2009,yet could barely get any sponsors. Selling to Mercedes saved them.


I did think of Brawn but that wasn't entirely surprising given they just had been abandoned by a manufacturer and left on their own. Now Lotus has gone through that pain a few years ago already, you'd think the hardest time to survive would've been then not now.

#42 Owen

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:30

I thought Lotus had those new investors - Infinity. :confused:

#43 Yoshi

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:03

I thought Lotus had those new investors - Infinity. :confused:


Deal is not done, they are working on it.

#44 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:17

The troubles at Lotus have been touched upon in other threads, as well as several articles at Autosport.

F1 is working of a broken business model, and unless the powers that is come to their senses, then Lotus may or may not fail, Sauber may or may not fail, Force India may or may not fail, Caterham may or may not fail, most tracks that hos F1 are operating at a loss but the commercial rights holder is doing fine.

It is clear and plain that the distribution of fiscal resources are not working, seems equally clear and plain that the commercial rights holder will do nothing to help fix the issues.

:cool:

#45 Wingcommander

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:18

What is the saddest part of it, it's Lotus being a top team yet they can't get enough cash... I mean what the heck.


They are a top team because they have been spending way too much money. Had they spent what they could afford, they would be in the midfield.

#46 Wingcommander

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:21

It is clear and plain that the distribution of fiscal resources are not working, seems equally clear and plain that the commercial rights holder will do nothing to help fix the issues.

:cool:


Bernie has said many times that it's up to the teams to control their spending. In a way i do agree with him, but i wouldnt mind a more equal distribution of FOM money.

#47 Elissa

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:25

Can't say I'm surprised....

I agree with an earlier poster saying there's too much money in F1, I find the obscene sums being passed around quite distasteful, especially in comparison to other motorsports series.

F1 is seemingly too money orientated and everything costs millions, is it any wonder teams are getting priced out??

I'm not a fan of Lotus at all but would be sad to see the team go under.

#48 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:26

Bernie has said many times that it's up to the teams to control their spending. In a way i do agree with him, but i wouldnt mind a more equal distribution of FOM money.


Spending yes.

Getting an equitable share yes as well, and that is where the commercial rights holder fail miserably.

:cool:

#49 Wingcommander

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:35

Getting an equitable share yes as well, and that is where the commercial rights holder fail miserably.

:cool:


Yeah, well there is a problem when commercial rights are owned by investors, not by people who are running the sport.

#50 ensign14

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:43

I'm starting to wonder if Max might have been on to something with his budget cap.

Of course he did, but certain teams had a sufficient lack of confidence in their staff being able to compete on a level playing field that they demanded the right instead to out-spend everyone else.