145 replies to this topic

[jrg19]

At the mid point of the season McLaren are no where near last years achievements, so what is the reason for it?

"Sometimes you're lucky in life and you stick all the elements together and they add up," said Whitmarsh. "Sometimes they just don't.

"There were times when it's come good and we don't really know why.

"At the end of last year, some of the developments overperformed. We were actually overdelivering at the track.

[femi]

That is a new creative reason for "failure" - last years car was better than we expected hence this year's car is not as good as expected. Maybe we get lucky again... in future...

Edited by femi, 09 August 2013 - 10:20.

[10e10]

At the mid point of the season McLaren are no where near last years achievements, so what is the reason for it?




Was this all down to Lewis out performing the car?

I find it troublesome when the team leader says that the fastest car the team has had for some long years, came to be being "lucky". Troublesome indeed.

Edited by 10e10, 09 August 2013 - 10:23.

[ensign14]

Did it outperform by six tenths?

[redreni]

You can check if it was the Hamilton effect by looking at the common factor between last year's Mclaren and this year's Mclaren, which is Button. That comparison tells anyone with a grey cell functioning that this year's car is much worse relative to the competition than last year's car.

Similarly with Mercedes you can check if it's purely the Hamilton effect by comparing Rosberg's 2012 and 2013 performances and results - he's doing significantly better this year suggesting the car has improved relative to the competition.

[apoka]

"At the end of last year, some of the developments overperformed. We were actually overdelivering at the track.

Was this all down to Lewis out performing the car?

Why should it only overperform (I believe relative to wind tunnel analysis etc.) at the end of the year in that case? The drivers were the same all year.

[Tenmantaylor]

At the mid point of the season McLaren are no where near last years achievements

Can you provide some data to back this up? McLaren had a poor start to last season too. Obviously not as bad as this year but some data will help establish your grounds to discuss further.

[SophieB]

The wider context of the interview suggests more that MW thinks McLaren lost an overall perspective in the 2013 design process and fell too much into working in compartmentalised little teams with not enough guiding vision.

I interpreted his comments on the 2012 car overperfoming as being in line with his previous remarks about them having unfounded optimism for the 2013 car, of placing too hopeful an assessment of the numbers being generated in the design process. After all, if the 2012 car delivered as much or more than expected, with hindsight (hey!) it's understandable if not excusable that they assumed the MP4-28 was going to over-deliver on what the numbers told them too.

Now, obviously, they know that all their experiences of last year's car should have told them is that their measuring metrics weren't reliable, not that they just consistently underestimate the true numbers.

I really don't think he's talking about drivers at all here, not even between the lines.

[F1ultimate]

"At the end of last year, some of the developments overperformed. We were actually overdelivering at the track."


Classic Ron Speak. Put this season's car in a better light by negatively painting last season's car as an overachiever.

[femi]

You can check if it was the Hamilton effect by looking at the common factor between last year's Mclaren and this year's Mclaren, which is Button. That comparison tells anyone with a grey cell functioning that this year's car is much worse relative to the competition than last year's car.

Similarly with Mercedes you can check if it's purely the Hamilton effect by comparing Rosberg's 2012 and 2013 performances and results - he's doing significantly better this year suggesting the car has improved relative to the competition.

You could be right but note that there is no LH to provide a yardstick for JB to measure himself against. Some people have already mentioned that it would be hard to see how really fast the 28 can go with LH gone.

One could also argue that the arrival of LH has motivated Nico to work harder he strives to match LH. It will be interesting to observe how these battle evolves now that LH seem to be getting tuned in to the car. Hopefully they would be to replicate the tyre management on display in Hungary at the remaining tracks at the very least.

[AvranaKern]

I took it as a sign that the Wind Tunnel numbers didn't correlate with what they had on track, but for a positive meaning, that is, car was performing better than the Wind Tunnel said it would. Martin is talking about a correlation problem, not an external input differentiator.

[femi]

The wider context of the interview suggests more that MW thinks McLaren lost an overall perspective in the 2013 design process and fell too much into working in compartmentalised little teams with not enough guiding vision.

I interpreted his comments on the 2012 car overperfoming as being in line with his previous remarks about them having unfounded optimism for the 2013 car, of placing too hopeful an assessment of the numbers being generated in the design process. After all, if the 2012 car delivered as much or more than expected, with hindsight (hey!) it's understandable if not excusable that they assumed the MP4-28 was going to over-deliver on what the numbers told them too.

Now, obviously, they know that all their experiences of last year's car should have told them is that their measuring metrics weren't reliable, not that they just consistently underestimate the true numbers.

I really don't think he's talking about drivers at all here, not even between the lines.

These are still not very flattering and moving forward quite troubling...

[Giz]

Yes that's why the last race of the season was won by Jenson.......

[jrg19]

Yes that's why the last race of the season was won by Jenson.......

Ah yes that inherited win.

[maverick69]

Reads to me like "We bit of way more that we could reasonably chew".

[Slackbladder]

Yes that's why the last race of the season was won by Jenson.......

In pretty special circumstances on a wet track after Hamilton got taken out by Hulkenberg...

[Tenmantaylor]

Yes that's why the last race of the season was won by Jenson.......

.. and the opener. Jenson had a shocking mid season though.

[Tommay]

Yes that's why the last race of the season was won by Jenson.......

After Lewis was knocked out by Hulkenburg......

I don't get why people can't accept that Lewis Hamilton THRASHED Button last year. Points don't tell the whole story and that fact of the matter is there is a maximum of two races that Button was actually racing better then Lewis ( And even that can be doubted with the fact that we don't know who Spa would of gone).

Oh and btw, Jenson beat Lewis in 2011. Fair and square.

[peroa]

"At the end of last year, some of the developments overperformed. We were actually overdelivering at the track."


Classic Ron Speak. Put this season's car in a better light by negatively painting last season's car as an overachiever.

Yep!

Can't believe he is really saying that and I thought my rating of him as a team principle couldn't get lower ...

[Giz]

Ah the old what if game

[maverick69]

Yep!

Can't believe he is really saying that and I thought my rating of him as a team principle couldn't get lower ...

You think?

Try this little chestnut from the same article!

"You have a little bit more compartmentalisation than you would like and the organisation has to pull together a synthesis and make sure that there is actually some synergy and cohesion between all those elements."

[seahawk]

I took it as a sign that the Wind Tunnel numbers didn't correlate with what they had on track, but for a positive meaning, that is, car was performing better than the Wind Tunnel said it would. Martin is talking about a correlation problem, not an external input differentiator.

If your correlation between WT - simulation - reality is off, you might be lucky and the parts perform better than expected, but this luck never lasts. Add some faults in the design or in the design team (lack of overall vision for the whole car, too many small projects thrown together) and you have a problem.

[SpaMaster]

.. and the opener. Jenson had a shocking mid season though.

Button had a chance to win by his own right. It was just strategy and weather see-sawing. The point is Button looked pretty good himself (except for the middle part where he disappeared). So it can't be just Hamilton adding speed to the car. That is just a silly interpretation.

[ebc]

I don't think Hamilton was outperforming the car, it was as fast as he showed with his pace, he is good but can't make a car go any faster than is possible.

This year it is hard to tell were the car is on pace, last year it was easy to tell if Jenson was having a good weekend or not, when Hamilton was his teammate you knew when Button was struggling because he was half a second behind but now it is hard to tell. Is Button underperforming or is the car that bad? When he finished 5th a few races back maybe Hamilton would have won that race.

With drivers like Vettel or Hamilton you know that they are pretty much getting all that the car can give.

[Baddoer]

Poor excuse by a poor team boss

[Tommay]

Button had a chance to win by his own right. It was just strategy and weather see-sawing. The point is Button looked pretty good himself (except for the middle part where he disappeared). So it can't be just Hamilton adding speed to the car. That is just a silly interpretation.

Other then Melbourne and maybe Spa (We'll never know) when did he realistically look like beating Lewis? (Baring in mind broken suspension at Suzuka)

[peroa]

Poor excuse by a poor team boss

In a nutshell.

[JHSingo]

In a word, no.

No it wasn't.

[femi]

You think?

Try this little chestnut from the same article!

"You have a little bit more compartmentalisation than you would like and the organisation has to pull together a synthesis and make sure that there is actually some synergy and cohesion between all those elements."

Oh boy I am glad LH didn't learn to speak like that!

[SpaMaster]

Other then Melbourne and maybe Spa (We'll never know) when did he realistically look like beating Lewis? (Baring in mind broken suspension at Suzuka)

This is not Button vs Hamilton thread. The point is Button was quite comparable and credible in comparison to Hamilton in the car. It's not like Hamilton was showing extra-special week-in and week-out to show it was Hamilton adding that extra-speed that Whitmarsh refers to as over-performance. That is the point. Based on the statements listed here, I get no indication whatsoever that it was related to Hamilton and just Hamilton's car overperforming while Button's matching with their theoretical correlation.

[SophieB]

A note to everyone: please do not turn this into a return of the Hamilton Vs Button thread or it will be closed.

Also, the OP didn't include a link to the interview the quote comes from, so here it is for completeness: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/109224

[MP422]

At the mid point of the season McLaren are no where near last years achievements, so what is the reason for it?




Was this all down to Lewis out performing the car?

No, But he was a big part of getting the car setup, IE: Montreal 2012. I think the drivers don't have that benefit this year.

[MortenF1]

This years car IS worse than last years, relatively speaking, but of course much has been lost with not having Hamilton driving. Remember that last year, he finished infront of Button from last on the grid, lapped him and often outqualified him by five, six, seven tenths and even more. (Subtract that from Button's times this year and the car would be at the front)

...but Whitmarsh would never put words on that, as it would be counter-productive and it would be stepping on Button's and Perez' toes.

[Timstr11]

Terrible, Terrible, headline by Autosport.
Whithmarsh simply wanted to indicate that the windtunnel figures predicted a slower car.

[Slackbladder]

If the car in the second half of the season 'overperformed' then it makes even less sense to totally ditch it for a untested and inferior (so far) setup for 2013.

McLaren are their own worst enemies, they make it so hard to find sympathy for them sometimes.

[SUPRAF1]

Despite the fact that Button performed well in last year's car (relative to this year) and even won a few races, he said that the 2013 car feels better to drive .

Anyways, is Whitmarsh really just saying "Our windtunnel -> track correlation sucks" ?

Edited by SUPRAF1, 09 August 2013 - 11:53.

[BrawnGeePee]

What a pretty awkward PR-bull statement by this corporatist "coat and tie" team principal/CEO/COO
Yeah sure the MP4-27 "overperformed", but the logic invalidates it as they won neither the WCC nor the WDC that season, giving them both to RBR/Seb instead
The heck they were EVEN beaten by the "underperforming" F2012 in the constructor's

Conclusion: He is not fit for this sport, give him a different gimmick Ron~

Edited by BrawnGeePee, 09 August 2013 - 11:56.

[Owen]

Despite the fact that Button performed well in last year's car (relative to this year) and even won a few races, he said that the 2013 car feels better to drive .

Anyways, is Whitmarsh really just saying "Our windtunnel -> track correlation sucks" ?

Seems so.

[Slackbladder]

The heck they were EVEN beaten by the "underperforming" F2012 in the constructor's

And that was with one of them being driven by Massa....

[Timstr11]

It's a pity this thread is descending into driver performance bickering.

Outperforming a car is physically not possible. Not in this universe.

This is about how Mclaren's aero department functions. Nothing to do with Hamilton vs Button. Nothing!

Edited by Timstr11, 09 August 2013 - 11:59.

[ashley313]

You think?

Try this little chestnut from the same article!

"You have a little bit more compartmentalisation than you would like and the organisation has to pull together a synthesis and make sure that there is actually some synergy and cohesion between all those elements."

Ron must have been typing into a teleprompter in the background.

[Trust]

I don't care who it is, NOBODY can outperform their car

Casey Stoner?

[bonjon1979a]

Casey Stoner?

I was speaking to a top motogp journalist about this very thing. Ducati bike always had performance, getting it out was the problem. It suited a very particular style that stoner happened to have, it brought the best in both of them. Maybe it's not dissimilar to the Hamilton -27 combination. Incidentally, that same journalist went one to tell me how lost Ducati have now got, moving philosophy towards a more Japanese style of chassis but then sticking to other traditionally Ducati characteristics. They've ended up making a pigs eat out of it not entirely dissimilar to how Mclaren have lost their way with a concept...

Edited by bonjon1979a, 09 August 2013 - 12:16.

[Mrluke]

You can check if it was the Hamilton effect by looking at the common factor between last year's Mclaren and this year's Mclaren, which is Button. That comparison tells anyone with a grey cell functioning that this year's car is much worse relative to the competition than last year's car.

Similarly with Mercedes you can check if it's purely the Hamilton effect by comparing Rosberg's 2012 and 2013 performances and results - he's doing significantly better this year suggesting the car has improved relative to the competition.

Have you actually looked at the data?

Here is the results of the first 10 races of 2012 vs 2013 for both Button and Rosberg.

2012

Rosberg
Average Qualifying Position = 7.1
Average Finish Position (exc DNF) = 7.7
Pts after 10 races = 76

Button
Average Qualifying Position = 7.6
Average Finish Position (exc DNF) = 9.6
Pts after 10 races = 68

2013

Rosberg
Average Qualifying Position = 4
Average Finish Position (exc DNF) = 6.8
Pts after 10 races = 84

Button
Average Qualifying Position = 10.4
Average Finish Position (exc DNF) = 9.3
Pts after 10 races = 39


What does it show?

Mclaren appears worse in Qualifying but better in the race. Pts are distorted due to Buttons inconsistant highs and lows in 2012, he either finished well or nowhere.

Very difficult to justify your statement of "anyone with a grey cell functioning that this year's car is much worse relative to the competition than last year's car"

Mercedes is qualifying much better than last year and finishing around 1 place higher.

Arguably Button is a superior driver to Rosberg so should be getting more out of his car than Rosberg. Yet comparing the 2012 figures the Mercedes did better in qualy, and race and had more points.

[Owen]

It's a pity this thread is descending into driver performance bickering.

Outperforming a car is physically not possible. Not in this universe.

This is about how Mclaren's aero department functions. Nothing to do with Hamilton vs Button. Nothing!

Totally agree - ignore the driver cr*p. And McLaren is not alone in suffering ongoing correlation problems.

Ferrari is currently using Toyota's wind tunnel in Cologne to develop its car while its own facility in Maranello is updated, but F138's chief designer, Simone Resta, says the data is still not correlating with the car on track.

http://www.espn.co.u...ory/120091.html

[mlsnoopy]

It's a pity this thread is descending into driver performance bickering.

Outperforming a car is physically not possible. Not in this universe.

This is about how Mclaren's aero department functions. Nothing to do with Hamilton vs Button. Nothing!

But maybe somebody can drive a car in a way that it wasn't designed to be driven.
For example maybe Hamilton could drive the car with the configuration that they had in Jarez. And that could maybe open up a whole new development direction.

[ElChupacabra]

It's the most stupid thing I ever read about racing.
Overperforming ? Even when wining all races, both champs, all poles, a car is not performing too much. Whitmarsh excuses for a bad job sound miserable.
I can hear "our 2012 upgrades were working better than expected and it screwed 2013 car", and that is even more stupid

[03011969]

At the mid point of the season McLaren are no where near last years achievements, so what is the reason for it?




Was this all down to Lewis out performing the car?

No.

[Timstr11]

But maybe somebody can drive a car in a way that it wasn't designed to be driven.
For example maybe Hamilton could drive the car with the configuration that they had in Jarez. And that could maybe open up a whole new development direction.

It's nonsense.

All Withmarsh was trying to indicate with his remark is that there were already signs last year that the correlation was off.

[David1976]

I think it is more likely the "Whitmarsh" effect than the "Hamilton" effect.

M.W. comes across as a nice guy but possibly not anywhere near as strong or motivating as Ron Dennis as a manager. There has been a steady drain of talent at McLaren for a few years now and it was only a matter of time before they had a torrid season.