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F1 drivers have doped - expert


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#101 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:10

Claptrap.

Really? Which bit?

There were lots of other teams in cycling, you know. And they all seem to have doped. Contador, Pantani, Virenque, Millar, Ulrich, Schumacher, Rasmussen et al ad nauseam. They have all taken the opportunity of the immolation of Armstrong as a chance to put their past misdemeanours behind them and now they are all presenting themselves as clean. Using the retired Armstrong as the scapegoat has allowed the sport to make a new start. Although how long it will last is anybody's guess.

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#102 Imperial

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:27

There were rumours around 1997/1998 of recreational drug use (cocaine) by more than one unnamed and, then, current driver.

I do believe this rumour made the pages of F1 Racing magazine. Not long after this there were also allegations of drug trafficking, done in the relative ease of race paddocks becoming 'customs zones' when races have ended. Interestingly Vic Lee and some of his employees were jailed for drug trafficking via his touring car team and I've always wondered if the employees mentioned may have been ex-F1.

Doping...it's a subject not touched on much in F1, but my understanding is random doping does in fact take place.

As for Senna and any drugs... He was such a God-fearing man, I don't buy this at all. Anyway, the guy could hardly handle a glass of wine, if ever someone would have been the least likely candidate for drug use it was Ayrton.



#103 Tonka

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:54

Really? Which bit?

There were lots of other teams in cycling, you know. And they all seem to have doped. Contador, Pantani, Virenque, Millar, Ulrich, Schumacher, Rasmussen et al ad nauseam. They have all taken the opportunity of the immolation of Armstrong as a chance to put their past misdemeanours behind them and now they are all presenting themselves as clean. Using the retired Armstrong as the scapegoat has allowed the sport to make a new start. Although how long it will last is anybody's guess.



Which bit ? All of it. All of the others were caught and banned when they were riding. The drug laws in cycling are the same as other sports - get caught and you're banned for 2 years. Caught again - a longer ban. All of those were banned. Contador managed to receive a lesser ban through a technicallity. There is no evidence of any of them getting up to the tricks Armstrong did. To claim that Armstong is some kind of sacrifice is bollocks.
He threatened and sued sponsors, riders, reporters and other people involved in racing throughout his career. He dragged many people into the sewer with him. The sooner he's destitute the better. At least make an attempt to familarise yourself with the facts. Wikipedia has plenty of pages devoted to Armstrong.



#104 Tonka

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:59

I do believe this rumour made the pages of F1 Racing magazine. Not long after this there were also allegations of drug trafficking, done in the relative ease of race paddocks becoming 'customs zones' when races have ended. Interestingly Vic Lee and some of his employees were jailed for drug trafficking via his touring car team and I've always wondered if the employees mentioned may have been ex-F1.


Not rumoured !

http://www.telegraph...tain-drugs.html

On board the Kawasaki Racing Team trucks, officers allegedly discovered 18lbs (8kg) of cocaine, 157lbs (71kg) of amphetamine tablets and more than 220lbs (100kg) of cannabis – as well as a handgun and 35 rounds of ammunition, left lying on a table ins ide one vehicle.


http://www.bikesport...amp;newsid=6290

http://crimeandjusti...al-of-99-years/

The Kawasaki team manager is now serving 25 years at her majesties !



#105 Imperial

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 00:05

Not rumoured !

http://www.telegraph...tain-drugs.html



http://www.bikesport...amp;newsid=6290

http://crimeandjusti...al-of-99-years/

The Kawasaki team manager is now serving 25 years at her majesties !


The thing I'm specifically referring to was late 90s/early 2000s, hence why I've wondered if perhaps some ex-F1 boys went to ply both of their trades in touring cars.

#106 SpamJet

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:55

Lance was just the sacrificial goat that cycling offered up to try to cleanse itself. Many of the very many hundreds or more other cyclists who routinely used banned substances were given them by their team medicos. Some claim that they were unwilling victims forced into it by their teams or even did not know they had been dosed.


Lance was no sacrificial lamb, he was just exposed. I would expand on my point but I'm busy giving myself a liver transplant using eye drops.


#107 BRG

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 10:06

Which bit ? All of it. All of the others were caught and banned when they were riding. The drug laws in cycling are the same as other sports - get caught and you're banned for 2 years. Caught again - a longer ban. All of those were banned. Contador managed to receive a lesser ban through a technicallity. There is no evidence of any of them getting up to the tricks Armstrong did. To claim that Armstong is some kind of sacrifice is bollocks.
He threatened and sued sponsors, riders, reporters and other people involved in racing throughout his career. He dragged many people into the sewer with him. The sooner he's destitute the better. At least make an attempt to familarise yourself with the facts. Wikipedia has plenty of pages devoted to Armstrong.

Oh good grief, you really have swallowed the whole thing hook line and sinker, haven't you? Lance is the Devil incarnate, all the others were just poor weak deluded children that he personally bullied and abused and forced into cheating. Don't you find all those former teammates who only now tell the truth, just a little unconvincing? They were all in it together and they are all as guilty as sin. It is just very handy for the rest to put it all onto Lance.,

Cyclists were routinely doping when Lance was in short pants. Tommy Simpson died on Mt Ventoux from using too many amphetamines. If you believe that Indurain was so dominant for so long (just like Lance) just because he trained harder, you are very naive. Lots of leading cyclists cheated, and some were caught and banned. I find the sanctimonious David Millar, a proven and banned drug cheat now pontificating about how evil Lance was, just a sickening hypocrite. He would still be cheating if he hadn't been caught.

Cycling needed to clean up its act, and by making an example of the biggest name in cycling, it enabled the rest to put their houses in order (hopefully) under cover of all the noise and fuss about Lance.

Anyway, back to the thread about doping in F1. Or not.

#108 bonjon1979a

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 11:04

Is 'tacrine' even a banned substance in F1?

#109 Tonka

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 11:46

Oh good grief, you really have swallowed the whole thing hook line and sinker, haven't you? Lance is the Devil incarnate, all the others were just poor weak deluded children that he personally bullied and abused and forced into cheating. Don't you find all those former teammates who only now tell the truth, just a little unconvincing? They were all in it together and they are all as guilty as sin. It is just very handy for the rest to put it all onto Lance.,

Cyclists were routinely doping when Lance was in short pants. Tommy Simpson died on Mt Ventoux from using too many amphetamines. If you believe that Indurain was so dominant for so long (just like Lance) just because he trained harder, you are very naive. Lots of leading cyclists cheated, and some were caught and banned. I find the sanctimonious David Millar, a proven and banned drug cheat now pontificating about how evil Lance was, just a sickening hypocrite. He would still be cheating if he hadn't been caught.

Cycling needed to clean up its act, and by making an example of the biggest name in cycling, it enabled the rest to put their houses in order (hopefully) under cover of all the noise and fuss about Lance.

Anyway, back to the thread about doping in F1. Or not.


Your ignorance continues.
https://en.wikipedia...ical_attributes

Time for you to stop digging.




#110 Imperial

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 12:50

In three pages of this thread there are about 10 posts actually discussing F1.

#111 SophieB

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 19:58

Get back onto the topic of (maybe) doping in F1, please. The TdF discussion has taken the thread way off course. Continue it by PM if need be or just let it drop.

And incidentally, thank you to the vast majority of people posting to the thread for being very mindful about the rules on making defamatory remarks in this area about current or past drivers.


#112 spacekid

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 20:32

This isn't directed at anyone on the thread, but I always find a whiff of hypocrisy/double standards when it comes to discussions on performance enhancing drugs (or just plain drugs for that matter).

As has been pointed out, caffeine is very good for helping with concentration etc. It would not surprise me if a good shot of caffeine could help a driver round a track (especially for a qualifying lap?) - and there would be no problem with that. There are other substances that probably cause no more harm than caffeine, or give much more of a performance boost, but because some government or governing body has decided - possibly decades ago - that people should not take the substance it becomes 'a very bad thing' and they are 'a very bad person'.

I don't think motor racing has the same potential for doping as, say, the mens 100m sprint, but I'm sure drivers take all sorts of legal supplements. It would not surprise me if there are a couple of illicit ones that some sneak in there too.

I have often wondered about motorbike racers. I know they race pumped full of all sorts of pain killers, but I don't know which ones. Pain killers often have an associated 'high'. I have sometimes wondered if they would all always pass a 'sobriety' test. I assume they are tested for 'drug driving' when they are all doped up - anyone know?

#113 SophieB

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 21:08

I have often wondered about motorbike racers. I know they race pumped full of all sorts of pain killers, but I don't know which ones. Pain killers often have an associated 'high'. I have sometimes wondered if they would all always pass a 'sobriety' test. I assume they are tested for 'drug driving' when they are all doped up - anyone know?


I don't know what painkillers are and are not acceptable there, I'm afraid. Still, even setting aside the possibility of riders racing in a narcotic haze, the framing of painkillers as potentially PEDs is a pretty fascinating one and has been raised before without much in the way of easy answers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-18282072

It is a grey zone. In my opinion pain killers fulfil all requirements of a doping substance because normally pain is a protection mechanism of the body and with pain killers you switch of this protection system, like if you switch off fatigue, which is also a protection mechanism of the body. Painkillers really enhance performance but they have negative effects on body tissues, maybe irreversible effects.


The obvious objection to that is that it's not performance enhancing as such, you're just returning the competitor to the state they'd be in without their injury, canceling out a negative rather than receiving a plus. But as the deputy director points out, you could say much the same about drugs that remove fatigue but anything much more than a cup of coffee (or Red Bull if you like!) seems to be widely unacceptable.


#114 Talisman

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 21:16

I have often wondered about motorbike racers. I know they race pumped full of all sorts of pain killers, but I don't know which ones. Pain killers often have an associated 'high'. I have sometimes wondered if they would all always pass a 'sobriety' test. I assume they are tested for 'drug driving' when they are all doped up - anyone know?


In motogp the riders will get extensive local anaesthetic injections around fracture sites before riding probably with strong NSAID cover as well. This wont have any cognitive effects. The doctor who administers this (can't remember his name) would likely be struck off if he did this on a member of the public.

#115 spacekid

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 21:52

Thanks Talisman and Sophie - yes local anaesthetics and the anti-inflams makes a lot of sense, and I can see how that would avoid cognitive effects. I was thinking that there are 'legal' painkillers like codeine that can have cognitive side effects but I'm sure these guys know how to manage pain issues.

I think there are a lot of sports where competitors are pumped up with something (legal) such as baseball and soccer. In the last world cup I think something crazy like 30% of players were starting matches on pain killers / cortisone injections. I'm sure there is a lot that sporting authorities allow/ignore to allow competitors to keep the cash rolling in.

I'd be very interested to know more about what drugs can improve cognition that are/are not allowed in motorsports. I noticed a poster above rubbished the idea of drugs to enhance learning tracks. I'm not sure its so stupid - there's a lot more than just the direction of corners, its enhancing the ability to reference braking points, turn in points the subtleties of adapting muscle memory to each circuit and set of corners. Dunno, maybe there's something in it...

Edited by spacekid, 15 August 2013 - 21:52.


#116 Amphicar

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 22:32

Is 'tacrine' even a banned substance in F1?

Looking at the Prohibited List here: http://www.fia.com/node/87, it appears not!

#117 spacekid

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 22:39

Looking at the Prohibited List here: http://www.fia.com/node/87, it appears not!


Thats interesting, beta blockers are prohibited in motor racing, but not motorcycle racing.

#118 Imperial

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 23:44

I'd be very interested to know more about what drugs can improve cognition that are/are not allowed in motorsports. I noticed a poster above rubbished the idea of drugs to enhance learning tracks. I'm not sure its so stupid - there's a lot more than just the direction of corners, its enhancing the ability to reference braking points, turn in points the subtleties of adapting muscle memory to each circuit and set of corners. Dunno, maybe there's something in it...


Anyone who has any kind of even remotely complex day-job exhibits the same memory skills race drivers exhibit in track knowledge. That's pure and simple memory, just some people are a little better than others. I played race games from being a kid for 15 years or so, I memorised all this stuff. Anyone who has ever repeatedly played racing games has done the same and that will surely be a million or more people by now.



#119 Imperial

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 23:51

Well, I just looked at the FIA Doping Overview for 2012.

103 drivers were dope tested in-season across 21 FIA championships. That basically gives an average of just 4.9 drivers per championship tested over an entire season.

Blimey. Talk about a token gesture.

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#120 Ellios

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 06:44

Well, I just looked at the FIA Doping Overview for 2012.

103 drivers were dope tested in-season across 21 FIA championships. That basically gives an average of just 4.9 drivers per championship tested over an entire season.

Blimey. Talk about a token gesture.


indeed, don't want to spoil the show now do we...