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Toto Wolff warns Mercedes against all-out title bid


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#51 Knot

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 16:45

Ok, so Wollf doesn't want to look at championships. What the F are they in F1 for? The pastries? Wolff is going to wreck MBF1 in the same way he helped to fly Williams into the ground.

Brawn should pack up and leave today.



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#52 femi

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 16:54

I think he means 2 things:

  • Do not go all out for the championship to the extent the car becomes unreliable. I think this is what the "consolidate & research" bit comes in
  • Do not jeopardize the 2014 car. If they don't win this year and still lose development time on the 2014 car, it is a lose-lose situation. He wants that avoided.
Why go to the press? It is likely to be a Q&A

LH and Rosberg are also talking to the press about this same subject.

I personally believe Ross B will go for it if he thinks he has a good chance and the success of the planned development coming through to the car in the next couple of races will help make the call - regardless of what Toto says.

This buck stops with Ross B.



#53 taran

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 21:41

This buck stops with Ross B.


I think you shouldn't overestimate Brawn's influence at Mercedes. It is clear that Mercedes' board weren't happy with his results. Any kuddos he might have had for his earlier achievements have been undermined by his underperforming in the past 3 years (as Mercedes views it). There is a reason why Mercedes went shopping for his replacement. Yes, replacement.

With the car finally doing well, Brawn has regained some influence, and IMO that changed the entire story from Wolff replacing Brawn to Wolff succeeding Brawn as principal when he retired but his position has been weakened and if it came to a showdown between them, Mercedes would be bound to support Wolff, their chosen man for the future....


#54 Xeriks

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 22:16

Ok, so Wollf doesn't want to look at championships. What the F are they in F1 for? The pastries? Wolff is going to wreck MBF1 in the same way he helped to fly Williams into the ground.

Brawn should pack up and leave today.


:drunk: What the hell?

#55 alframsey

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 22:40

I think you shouldn't overestimate Brawn's influence at Mercedes. It is clear that Mercedes' board weren't happy with his results. Any kuddos he might have had for his earlier achievements have been undermined by his underperforming in the past 3 years (as Mercedes views it). There is a reason why Mercedes went shopping for his replacement. Yes, replacement.

With the car finally doing well, Brawn has regained some influence, and IMO that changed the entire story from Wolff replacing Brawn to Wolff succeeding Brawn as principal when he retired but his position has been weakened and if it came to a showdown between them, Mercedes would be bound to support Wolff, their chosen man for the future....

I thought it was a commonly held view that Paddy Lowe would succeed Brawn...

#56 2ms

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 22:58

Who is this Toto Wolff jackass and where did he come from? Is he one of these kids who started some real estate/investment/bs company with daddy's money and then bought their way into F1 teams to park themselves in front of TV cameras and fancy themselves LdMs? Every bit I've seen of this dude wreaks of douchebag. What's the story on him?

Edited by 2ms, 13 August 2013 - 11:21.


#57 Seano

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 23:28

TBH I don't see either Paddy or Toto as the natural, best fit RB successor. Paddy might or might not become it in a year or two. For Toto make it a decade or two - you can't buy experience.

Nobody knows how 2014 will pan out - so you might as well quietly take a punt on this chassis. This chassis is not proven to be there yet, but the engine is. The Renault and Ferrari packages suddenly don't look so invincible.

Carpe diem!

Seano



#58 Watkins74

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 23:37

I do hope he is bluffing. Wonder if he would say the same if Rosberg was in Lewis' position.

Really?

#59 alframsey

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 23:37

TBH I don't see either Paddy or Toto as the natural, best fit RB successor. Paddy might or might not become it in a year or two. For Toto make it a decade or two - you can't buy experience.

Nobody knows how 2014 will pan out - so you might as well quietly take a punt on this chassis. This chassis is not proven to be there yet, but the engine is. The Renault and Ferrari packages suddenly don't look so invincible.

Carpe diem!

Seano

I don't understand this part... How do we know who has the better engines yet?

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#60 Seano

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 23:47

I'd say qualifying and general reliability is pointing in that direction - although it would be interesting to know what happened to Nico's last one. The Renault and especially its ancillaries seems to be prone to failure and the Ferrari seems to be a little weaker overall.

Seano

Edited by Seano, 12 August 2013 - 23:49.


#61 chrisj

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 00:06

I think he should STFU and let Brawn decide what to do.

#62 alframsey

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 00:25

I'd say qualifying and general reliability is pointing in that direction - although it would be interesting to know what happened to Nico's last one. The Renault and especially its ancillaries seems to be prone to failure and the Ferrari seems to be a little weaker overall.

Seano

Oh you mean this season? I thought you were talking about next season...

#63 bourbon

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 00:46

Ah well then, pack up your things everyone and just declare him the champ today, :rolleyes:

They usually excel there because their car is sorted by this point of the year and comfortably the fastest. There's a serious possibility, perhaps probability that isn't the case this year, and that the points gap is significantly smaller then than it is now. I can see it being halved over the next two races, this WDC isn't as over as some seem to hope it is.


But that argument is also predicated on counting everyone else between Hamilton and Vettel out - namely Alonso and Kimi. Well if Lotus have no money and cannot continue to develop, one might have a point. But it would be a mistake to count Ferrari out at this stage and Red Bull can't be counted on to stagnate or keep its present pace either.

Edited by bourbon, 13 August 2013 - 00:52.


#64 lustigson

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 07:22

And being idiots, they are, RB will of course fall for it... Unlike your genious.


Ha ha, right. ;)

#65 undersquare

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 07:40

But that argument is also predicated on counting everyone else between Hamilton and Vettel out - namely Alonso and Kimi. Well if Lotus have no money and cannot continue to develop, one might have a point. But it would be a mistake to count Ferrari out at this stage and Red Bull can't be counted on to stagnate or keep its present pace either.

Ferrari won't be helped by Monty tweaking Nando's ear though, and the reason it got tweaked is that they have infrastructure problems and a some failed upgrades, which can only be promising. Personally I'll be surprised if Lewis does't overhaul him, and Kimi as you say. It's Sebi who's odds-against being caught; but possible.

#66 taran

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 09:12

I thought it was a commonly held view that Paddy Lowe would succeed Brawn...


The job is going to be split AFAIK. It is difficult to see through all these titles these days. In the old days you had a team owner who acted as team principal in charge of sponsorship and general management, assisted by a chief designer who oversaw the actual car. Now its CEO´s, CTO, Technical Directors and whatnot.

Wolff effectively will become team principal while Lowe will be chief designer but with multiple levels beneath them their titles have inflated. Still, principal trumps designer...just ask Frank Williams.....

#67 maverick69

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 09:26

The job is going to be split AFAIK. It is difficult to see through all these titles these days. In the old days you had a team owner who acted as team principal in charge of sponsorship and general management, assisted by a chief designer who oversaw the actual car. Now its CEO´s, CTO, Technical Directors and whatnot.

Wolff effectively will become team principal while Lowe will be chief designer but with multiple levels beneath them their titles have inflated. Still, principal trumps designer...just ask Frank Williams.....


Yep. From what I understand from what Brawn was saying in his recent interview in the JA Podcast - he will take a step back from the total control of the engineering side (which Lowe will take over) and solely focus on the sporting side.

What titles they will have - I really don't know.

#68 Timstr11

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 09:27

I think you shouldn't overestimateunderestimate Brawn's influence at Mercedes.

Has anyone of you considered that the highly experienced Bob Bell, Aldo Costa, Geoff Willlis have been hired by Ross brawn and not Toto Wolff. The cohesion in the team can easily be broken when Brawn leaves. Wolff is young and with unproven leadership qualities. Paddy Lowe comes into a team that is doing very well at the moment so there is less room for him to come in and school the Mercedes tech team, especially given the mess he left behind at McLaren.

Edited by Timstr11, 13 August 2013 - 09:39.


#69 taran

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:15

Has anyone of you considered that the highly experienced Bob Bell, Aldo Costa, Geoff Willlis have been hired by Ross brawn and not Toto Wolff. The cohesion in the team can easily be broken when Brawn leaves. Wolff is young and with unproven leadership qualities. Paddy Lowe comes into a team that is doing very well at the moment so there is less room for him to come in and school the Mercedes tech team, especially given the mess he left behind at McLaren.


Not to underestimate the achievements of these men but they all have had a bit of a cloud over them. Bell oversaw the Renaults of 2007-2009, Costa failed to match the Brawn-Byrne days and Willis ended up at Hispania after building stinkers for BAR/Honda....So maybe their presence isn't that necessary to Mercedes?

To state it simply, Mercedes was sold on a F1 works team because it would be cheaper (sponsorship and CVC money) and because buying Brawn would give them an instant championship level team (as Brawn was winning numerous races at the time).

Since then, Mercedes GP has disappointed and by late 2012 it was clear heads would roll after 3 seasons in the doldrums. Lauda was parachuted in to see what was wrong. First to go was Haug, to be followed by Brawn with Wolff and Lowe brought in to clear out the deadwood. Don't be surprised to see some of these engineers leave as Lowe gets his feet under the table.




#70 alframsey

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:23

Not to underestimate the achievements of these men but they all have had a bit of a cloud over them. Bell oversaw the Renaults of 2007-2009, Costa failed to match the Brawn-Byrne days and Willis ended up at Hispania after building stinkers for BAR/Honda....So maybe their presence isn't that necessary to Mercedes?

To state it simply, Mercedes was sold on a F1 works team because it would be cheaper (sponsorship and CVC money) and because buying Brawn would give them an instant championship level team (as Brawn was winning numerous races at the time).

Since then, Mercedes GP has disappointed and by late 2012 it was clear heads would roll after 3 seasons in the doldrums. Lauda was parachuted in to see what was wrong. First to go was Haug, to be followed by Brawn with Wolff and Lowe brought in to clear out the deadwood. Don't be surprised to see some of these engineers leave as Lowe gets his feet under the table.

I've always wondered why people thought Bell, Willis and Costa are considered 'top' engineers/designers/whatever, to me I can't see much they have done well. If I'm completely wrong please enlighten me.

#71 seahawk

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:48

What else should he say?

Should he say "Our private test and the tire changes mean that we now turned our crap car into a car able to go for the WCC and WDC even with the point differences to RBR we are facing right now."

In their situation it is much wise to say, what he says and act surprised on how competitive your car is.

#72 undersquare

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:03

I've always wondered why people thought Bell, Willis and Costa are considered 'top' engineers/designers/whatever, to me I can't see much they have done well. If I'm completely wrong please enlighten me.

I'd say if anything they were originally just over-promoted as per the Peter Principle. They must have been good at something, surely? But it's so hard to know about individuals, when everything is such a team effort.

#73 taran

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:18

I've always wondered why people thought Bell, Willis and Costa are considered 'top' engineers/designers/whatever, to me I can't see much they have done well. If I'm completely wrong please enlighten me.


I am sure they are indeed great engineers. They certainly have experienced huge success in their careers.
Bell led Renault's poor years (2007-2010) but also led their championship years.
Costa built some nifty Minardi's before becoming Byrne's right hand man during the latter Schumacher years.
Willis was Newey's right hand man.


Those are pretty neat credentials if you ask me. But its true that they also had some poor years to their name. Maybe lack of resources, management troubles or just simple bad luck. But if you claim your greatness led to success and deserves $$$, then you are also responsible for the bad times in my book....



#74 maverick69

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:39

I think every top engineer/designer on the grid has had "bad years". For example, Newey designed the 2006 McLaren - and the pre 2009 Red Bulls were hardly great.

So it's very much a case of "live in the now" with F1 teams and the engineers and designers...... And you cannot but conclude that the transformation down at Mercedes is nothing short of a revelation...... The reasons for which will not be lost to Daimler.

Therefore, I expect the whole team to remain with a few additions and tweaks.

#75 femi

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:14

I thought it was a commonly held view that Paddy Lowe would succeed Brawn...



This is the recent quote from Ross:

But I am happy to be at Mercedes, we are doing a great job. Paddy Lowe's arrival does not change my situation because I have a different role in the team



#76 alframsey

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:31

This is the recent quote from Ross:

I read that as he has a different role in the team at the moment, after all you can't have two TPs, but when the time comes that Brawn wishes to retire I always thought it was Paddy Lowe who was being lined up to replace him and not Wolff?

#77 femi

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 13:13

I read that as he has a different role in the team at the moment, after all you can't have two TPs, but when the time comes that Brawn wishes to retire I always thought it was Paddy Lowe who was being lined up to replace him and not Wolff?



Never heard or read anything about Wolf replacing Ross.

#78 alframsey

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 13:17

Never heard or read anything about Wolf replacing Ross.

Neither have I...aside from a couple of posts in this thread.

#79 taran

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 13:43

Guys, its not really rocket science. And it has been widely reported.
Brawn is/was the team principal and because he had a technical background, he also has great influence upon the technical side of things. Norbert Haug was Mercedes sport director and responsible for all mercedes racing programmes. In effect, he represented the team to the Mercedes board, got the necessary backing etc.

That obviously wasn't working so Mercedes sent Lauda in to see what was wrong. The (immediate) results were Haug departing and Wolff coming in as the new non-technical leader. His job is to run the team as director and represent it to the board. Lowe will eventually take over the technical side of the team.

Now, I don't know why Brawn failed. He didn't quite do the job at Honda and certainly failed to do the job at Mercedes in the past 3 years. But all these new people coming in certainly pointed towards Brawn being readied for an exit. That obviously didn't happen with confused and frankly silly stories flying around about Brawn slowly easing the throttle or not, stepping down or not, leaving in a year or two or not....Make of it what you will but I smell different agenda's clashing and some face saving plastered on a united front....

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#80 JaredS

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 14:09

Now, I don't know why Brawn failed. He didn't quite do the job at Honda and certainly failed to do the job at Mercedes in the past 3 years.


You know, I really struggle to even begin to understand the basis of claims such as the above.

Brawn didn't quite do the job at Honda, you say? He joined Honda in 2008. He was with them for just one year. The very next year, same team but under the name of Brawn GP they won both WDC and WCC.

Except for Newey, the man's CV is the best. Absolute top notch. In 1989 he joined Jaguar contesting the World Sportscar championship, which he won in 1991. He then joins Benetton in late 1991, and during his time there they win 2 WDCs and 1 WCC. He then joins Ferrari where they win 5 WDCs and 6 WCCs. Then joins Honda in 2008 and as already mentioned, team wins a WDC and WCC in 2009. Team gets bought out by Mercedes with huge expectations and the team's struggles are considered a major failure. Yet 3 years later and they're 2nd in the championship and going strong. Not without its struggles but things have come together and all the while he's been calm, patient and hasn't uttered any rhetoric like a few other TPs I can name.

Also, whilst Mercedes hasn't achieved the lofty heights that were hoped for, I'd hardly call it a failure. 2010 and 2011 they finished 4th behind RBR, McLaren and Ferrari. In 2012, they finished 5th behind those other same teams as well as Lotus. Now in 2013, 2nd so far. Not all that bad for a team that has had a lot of changes and is only just starting to come together.

#81 taran

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 14:41

You know, I really struggle to even begin to understand the basis of claims such as the above.

Brawn didn't quite do the job at Honda, you say? He joined Honda in 2008. He was with them for just one year. The very next year, same team but under the name of Brawn GP they won both WDC and WCC.

Except for Newey, the man's CV is the best. Absolute top notch. In 1989 he joined Jaguar contesting the World Sportscar championship, which he won in 1991. He then joins Benetton in late 1991, and during his time there they win 2 WDCs and 1 WCC. He then joins Ferrari where they win 5 WDCs and 6 WCCs. Then joins Honda in 2008 and as already mentioned, team wins a WDC and WCC in 2009. Team gets bought out by Mercedes with huge expectations and the team's struggles are considered a major failure. Yet 3 years later and they're 2nd in the championship and going strong. Not without its struggles but things have come together and all the while he's been calm, patient and hasn't uttered any rhetoric like a few other TPs I can name.

Also, whilst Mercedes hasn't achieved the lofty heights that were hoped for, I'd hardly call it a failure. 2010 and 2011 they finished 4th behind RBR, McLaren and Ferrari. In 2012, they finished 5th behind those other same teams as well as Lotus. Now in 2013, 2nd so far. Not all that bad for a team that has had a lot of changes and is only just starting to come together.


I am not going to argue Brawn's accomplishments with you. To a point, I fully agree. He has been one of the defining engineers of F1 in the past 20 years.

But I am not blind to his lesser accomplishments either.

Sure, he had little input in the 2008 Honda (although he did have a full year of gardening leave and he wouldn't have been the first man to do a little homework at...home). But he didn't cure the wayward beast or help Honda decide to stay by showing progress on track. Working for next season is all very fine but there has to be a next season.....

And let's not forget, the Brawn was based on the Super Aguri diffuser design, not his own work. Even Ferrari acknowledges Lancia when the D50 comes up....

And spin it what you will, 2010-2012 have been disappointments. I'll buy the 2009 mass team sackings having impacted 2010 but 2011 and 2012 were poor by Brawn standards. Even in early 2013 his team seemed clueless in understanding the tyres until they got a special test session. Besides, this is not a new team needing a few interim years to gell. It was established in 1998 so it should have been a cohesive, close knit organization, certainly with Brawn at the helm for many years and equal to the other top teams, not fighting with Force Indias for much of their present incarnation.

It seems as if Brawn has lost his deft touch. And that happens to all great designers/engineers at some point. Head, Ducarouge, Southgate, Gardner, Barnard, the list is endless.

#82 Kvothe

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 14:51

I am not going to argue Brawn's accomplishments with you. To a point, I fully agree. He has been one of the defining engineers of F1 in the past 20 years.

But I am not blind to his lesser accomplishments either.

Sure, he had little input in the 2008 Honda (although he did have a full year of gardening leave and he wouldn't have been the first man to do a little homework at...home). But he didn't cure the wayward beast or help Honda decide to stay by showing progress on track. Working for next season is all very fine but there has to be a next season.....

And let's not forget, the Brawn was based on the Super Aguri diffuser design, not his own work. Even Ferrari acknowledges Lancia when the D50 comes up....

And spin it what you will, 2010-2012 have been disappointments. I'll buy the 2009 mass team sackings having impacted 2010 but 2011 and 2012 were poor by Brawn standards. Even in early 2013 his team seemed clueless in understanding the tyres until they got a special test session. Besides, this is not a new team needing a few interim years to gell. It was established in 1998 so it should have been a cohesive, close knit organization, certainly with Brawn at the helm for many years and equal to the other top teams, not fighting with Force Indias for much of their present incarnation.

It seems as if Brawn has lost his deft touch. And that happens to all great designers/engineers at some point. Head, Ducarouge, Southgate, Gardner, Barnard, the list is endless.


You state

I'll buy the 2009 mass team sackings having impacted 2010 but 2011 and 2012 were poor by Brawn standards.


Than later on state:

Besides, this is not a new team needing a few interim years to gell. It was established in 1998 so it should have been a cohesive, close knit organization


If you can't see the contradiction you've made i'm not going to help you, and that's just one of the issues i have with your post.

#83 undersquare

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 15:40

You state

Than later on state:

If you can't see the contradiction you've made i'm not going to help you, and that's just one of the issues i have with your post.

Yeah not only was Honda a failed organisation descended from BAR with CEO Nick Fry, they downsized and that means the best people leave - they're the ones with options at other teams.

On top of that Mercedes fell for the budget cap thing and tried to do F1 on (IIRC) €50m or something. It's only right now that the big time budget has come in, to do F1 at the top.

But surely after this year's results and the testgate coup both Toto and The Board are going to get behind Brawn, and trust him whether to shoot for 2013 or let it go. Who in the whole pitlane could make that call better than Ross?

#84 taran

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 15:47

You state


Than later on state:



If you can't see the contradiction you've made i'm not going to help you, and that's just one of the issues i have with your post.


Well, maybe I wasn't clear.
What I meant is that mass sackings in 2009 could conceivably have impacted the 2010 car. But Brawn should have been a well organized team as it had been established in 1998 and been fed with bucketloads of money ever since. So it should still have been a strong team with some of the fat cut away. And let's face it, BAR had a lot of fat to get rid off.

2009 is also the height of the financial crisis and several teams have shut down or are going to. So once Brawn has been bought by Mercedes, getting good people again should not have been difficult. Hell, most of the ex-Brawn/Honda people were probably still available. No reason at all for 2011 and 2012 to be poor too. Its practically the same team, with sufficient funding, good drivers and the required experience. But poor results. The principal must take the blame, just as Whitmarsh is copping the blame for this year's McLaren.

You however seem to find any criticism of Brawn to be offensive. So I'll let you return to worshipping Ross at the little altar you've built in your bedroom.
I don't want to get between a person and their religion.. :kiss:


#85 Mrluke

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 16:03

Well, maybe I wasn't clear.
What I meant is that mass sackings in 2009 could conceivably have impacted the 2010 car. But Brawn should have been a well organized team as it had been established in 1998 and been fed with bucketloads of money ever since. So it should still have been a strong team with some of the fat cut away. And let's face it, BAR had a lot of fat to get rid off.

2009 is also the height of the financial crisis and several teams have shut down or are going to. So once Brawn has been bought by Mercedes, getting good people again should not have been difficult. Hell, most of the ex-Brawn/Honda people were probably still available. No reason at all for 2011 and 2012 to be poor too. Its practically the same team, with sufficient funding, good drivers and the required experience. But poor results. The principal must take the blame, just as Whitmarsh is copping the blame for this year's McLaren.

You however seem to find any criticism of Brawn to be offensive. So I'll let you return to worshipping Ross at the little altar you've built in your bedroom.
I don't want to get between a person and their religion.. :kiss:


Do you have any evidence that the team now is practically the same as 2008? As I cant see it myself.

#86 JaredS

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 16:34

I am not going to argue Brawn's accomplishments with you. To a point, I fully agree. He has been one of the defining engineers of F1 in the past 20 years.

But I am not blind to his lesser accomplishments either.

Sure, he had little input in the 2008 Honda (although he did have a full year of gardening leave and he wouldn't have been the first man to do a little homework at...home). But he didn't cure the wayward beast or help Honda decide to stay by showing progress on track. Working for next season is all very fine but there has to be a next season.....

And let's not forget, the Brawn was based on the Super Aguri diffuser design, not his own work. Even Ferrari acknowledges Lancia when the D50 comes up....

And spin it what you will, 2010-2012 have been disappointments. I'll buy the 2009 mass team sackings having impacted 2010 but 2011 and 2012 were poor by Brawn standards. Even in early 2013 his team seemed clueless in understanding the tyres until they got a special test session. Besides, this is not a new team needing a few interim years to gell. It was established in 1998 so it should have been a cohesive, close knit organization, certainly with Brawn at the helm for many years and equal to the other top teams, not fighting with Force Indias for much of their present incarnation.

It seems as if Brawn has lost his deft touch. And that happens to all great designers/engineers at some point. Head, Ducarouge, Southgate, Gardner, Barnard, the list is endless.


I barely know where to start to be honest. BAR was such a poor team. They neither attracted nor kept the best engineers etc. They were anything but a well oiled machine. It was a well oiled organisation for mediocrity and failure, given the huge budgets they had. I'm not saying that 2009 was entirely due to Brawn, but if you're going to beat him with the stick of 2010-2012 then it's worth acknowledging the success of 2009 also under his direction.

It's almost like you are saying "Well, Ross Brawn isn't God so that can only mean he's shit".

No, he's not perfect but geez he's pretty bloody good. Like I said, besides Newey (who is mostly tech, with Horner doing the non-tech direction) it is Brawn who has the next most impressive CV and arguably an even greater number of achievements especially at a managerial level. Paddy Lowe has got huge shoes to fill if he's ever going to replace Brawn, and by the looks of constant ups and downs of McLaren, I can't immediately see anything Paddy brings to the table that clearly outweighs what Brawn has already got.

#87 Kvothe

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 16:55

Well, maybe I wasn't clear.
What I meant is that mass sackings in 2009 could conceivably have impacted the 2010 car. But Brawn should have been a well organized team as it had been established in 1998 and been fed with bucketloads of money ever since. So it should still have been a strong team with some of the fat cut away. And let's face it, BAR had a lot of fat to get rid off.

2009 is also the height of the financial crisis and several teams have shut down or are going to. So once Brawn has been bought by Mercedes, getting good people again should not have been difficult. Hell, most of the ex-Brawn/Honda people were probably still available. No reason at all for 2011 and 2012 to be poor too. Its practically the same team, with sufficient funding, good drivers and the required experience. But poor results. The principal must take the blame, just as Whitmarsh is copping the blame for this year's McLaren.

You however seem to find any criticism of Brawn to be offensive. So I'll let you return to worshipping Ross at the little altar you've built in your bedroom.
I don't want to get between a person and their religion.. :kiss:


There are many things wrong with your post.

Your baseless assumptions emphasized by your continuous use of the word should such as:
Equating have a lot of money directly with performance
Assuming engineers that have been let go, and have probably settled down somewhere else can just be brought back into the fold.

Your failure to acknowledge Mercedes commitment to the RRA, and budget cap (mentioned by Undersquare), which not only hindered their operations but also their future capability such as hiring any readily available staff.

A lack of knowledge of why Mercedes were struggling, such as the revamping of the wind tunnel in 2012 which took several months and hampered aerodynamic development, at a time where Mercedes were actually reasonably competitive, had won one race, and would have won a second but for Schumacher's grid penalty in Monaco.

A failure to appreciate how long it can take to build up a team even if it is already established and a base has been laid already. Examples include Red Bull (formerly jaguar), or Brawn's previous tenure at Ferrari.

A failure to acknowledge the improvements both in terms of results and performance, year on year, after the decision to do away with the budget cap and to hire en masse.

The classless way you ended your post

A lack of geographical knowledge that places my altar to Ross Brawn in my room, when it is in fact located in the cupboard under the stairs

The amount of time I wasted reading your post and responding to it.






#88 alframsey

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 17:17

Well, maybe I wasn't clear.
What I meant is that mass sackings in 2009 could conceivably have impacted the 2010 car. But Brawn should have been a well organized team as it had been established in 1998 and been fed with bucketloads of money ever since. So it should still have been a strong team with some of the fat cut away. And let's face it, BAR had a lot of fat to get rid off.

2009 is also the height of the financial crisis and several teams have shut down or are going to. So once Brawn has been bought by Mercedes, getting good people again should not have been difficult. Hell, most of the ex-Brawn/Honda people were probably still available. No reason at all for 2011 and 2012 to be poor too. Its practically the same team, with sufficient funding, good drivers and the required experience. But poor results. The principal must take the blame, just as Whitmarsh is copping the blame for this year's McLaren.

You however seem to find any criticism of Brawn to be offensive. So I'll let you return to worshipping Ross at the little altar you've built in your bedroom.
I don't want to get between a person and their religion.. :kiss:

Okay so imagine this; The mass sackings of 2009 lead to the somewhat winged clipped team Brawn had to design a car for 2010 with inherent flaws, flaws so inbuilt with the design it meant 2011 and 2012 were going to be failure years and only now they are starting to get their heads around them. just when they are widely believed the be back at the same staff and spending level of the top teams. What I am saying is that the one year with less staff and resources which leads to the 2010 could have set the trend for the next two season, only changing now when all things are equal (so to speak).

#89 JaredS

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 13:42

A lack of geographical knowledge that places my altar to Ross Brawn in my room, when it is in fact located in the cupboard under the stairs


:clap: :lol:

#90 CHIUNDA

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 15:03

You however seem to find any criticism of Brawn to be offensive. So I'll let you return to worshipping Ross at the little altar you've built in your bedroom.
I don't want to get between a person and their religion.. :kiss:


Should be easier to criticise Whirtmarsh than Brawn yet Ross is getting bigger stick than Martin on these forums.

Edited by CHIUNDA, 14 August 2013 - 15:06.