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Which team was what team?


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#1 Mox

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:56

Hi all.

I once had a link to a site that listed the relations between F1 teams (i.e. Mercedes GP was Brawn F1 was BAR Honda was Tyrell was ...), but I have forgotten where it was.

Does anybody know?

TIA

/Mox

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#2 Tim Murray

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:50

Here are the ancestries that have changed for the F1 teams currently racing:

Stewart > Jaguar > Red Bull

Minardi > Toro Rosso

Tyrrell > BAR > Honda > Brawn > Mercedes

Toleman > Benetton > Renault > 'Lotus'

Jordan > Midland > Spyker > Force India

Sauber > BMW > Sauber

Virgin > Marussia

'Lotus' > Caterham


#3 Roger Clark

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 11:53

In most of he above cases, the buyers took over facilities and personnel so hte new team could be seen as a continuation of the old under a new name. The BAR takeover of Tyrrell was, I believe, different as a new factory was built, and new (Reynard) engineers brought in. The only thing BAR took over was Tyrrell's franchise, or right to compete in the world championship.

Is that correct?

#4 D-Type

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 12:10

Could we include Scuderia Ferrari effectively being the Alfa Romeo factory team and then going on to manufacture their own cars?

#5 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 12:34

Could we include Scuderia Ferrari effectively being the Alfa Romeo factory team and then going on to manufacture their own cars?

Ah, Alfa Romeo and Ferrari. A return to sanity after that lot listed in Tims post. Fizzy drinks racers etc. :cool: .

#6 nicanary

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 12:34

Could we include Scuderia Ferrari effectively being the Alfa Romeo factory team and then going on to manufacture their own cars?


:)


#7 David McKinney

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 16:01

Could we include Scuderia Ferrari effectively being the Alfa Romeo factory team and then going on to manufacture their own cars?

Sorry, Duncan. The opening post asks about F1 teams :lol:

#8 Roger Clark

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 13:05

Sorry, Duncan. The opening post asks about F1 teams :lol:

Even if you remove the F1 constraint I don't think this works. Otherwise you could say that Matra was the first link in the chain that leads to Mercedes-Benz.

#9 Jackmancer

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 13:11

Posted Image

#10 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 13:26

The only thing I'd question is Tyrrell.

#11 Mox

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 14:09

Posted Image


Awesome, thanks.

But how about the historical teams. Those that are now defunct, i.e. Prost coming out of Ligier? And wasn't there something before Stewart?

The website I'm searching for had it all (afair)

#12 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 14:24

Wolf was Williams, Tyrrell was Matra, Parnell was Bowmaker, and UDT-Laystall was Yeoman Credit... I'm sure we have been through that all before.

#13 RogerFrench

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 15:49

Wolf was Williams, Tyrrell was Matra, Parnell was Bowmaker, and UDT-Laystall was Yeoman Credit... I'm sure we have been through that all before.


No, Tyrrell wasn't Matra. Tyrrell started way before the Matra connection, and continued afterwards, in competition with Matra. Granted, Tyrrell ran Matra chassis in F1, but then they also ran Cooper and others, notably BRM F2, in the years before they went into GP racing.


#14 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 15:58

Dont Forget Forti!!!

#15 Peter Morley

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 16:20

In most of he above cases, the buyers took over facilities and personnel so hte new team could be seen as a continuation of the old under a new name. The BAR takeover of Tyrrell was, I believe, different as a new factory was built, and new (Reynard) engineers brought in. The only thing BAR took over was Tyrrell's franchise, or right to compete in the world championship.

Is that correct?


They did take over the company - apparently the current Mercedes team operate under the same company registration number as Tyrrell did, as far as Companies House is concerned it is the same company.

But, I was surprised to find that the fuel tank on Tyrrell 026 said custom made for British American Racing on it...

#16 Duc-Man

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 16:31

Bruce McLaren Motor Racing > Yardley Team McLaren > Marlboro Team Texaco > Marlboro Team McLaren > McLaren Peugeot(?) > McLaren Honda > West McLaren Mercedes > Team McLaren Mercedes > Vodafone McLaren Mercedes

I take my coat...

#17 Duc-Man

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 16:40

They did take over the company - apparently the current Mercedes team operate under the same company registration number as Tyrrell did, as far as Companies House is concerned it is the same company.

But, I was surprised to find that the fuel tank on Tyrrell 026 said custom made for British American Racing on it...

Ken Tyrrell had the team sold to British American Tobacco before the first race. I would say that the team was already halfway BAR but was still competing under the Tyrrell name.
We know what kind of a fuzz the FIA makes when a team wants or needs the name changed after the end of the registration time.

#18 D-Type

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 16:43

Awesome, thanks.

But how about the historical teams. Those that are now defunct, i.e. Prost coming out of Ligier? And wasn't there something before Stewart?

The website I'm searching for had it all (afair)


No, as a F1 team Stewart was started from scratch, based on Paul Stewart Racing which had competed in lower formulae. And I think Paul Stewart Racing was also started from scratch.

#19 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 19:14

No, Tyrrell wasn't Matra. Tyrrell started way before the Matra connection, and continued afterwards, in competition with Matra. Granted, Tyrrell ran Matra chassis in F1, but then they also ran Cooper and others, notably BRM F2, in the years before they went into GP racing.


Tyrrell was "Matra International", believe me! The other Matra team was called "Matra Sports" or somesuch, I don't recall, and later it raced against Tyrrell as "Matra-Simca". Of course, the "Tyrrell Racing Organisation" existed before F1, but that wasn't the question, was it? Same as "Frank Williams Racing Cars" existed before it became the Politoys F1 team, and then ISO-Marlboro, Williams, Wolf-Williams and finally Wolf, which continued afterwards in competition with "Williams Grand Prix Engineering". It's not always as easy as it looks!!

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#20 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 19:20

Bruce McLaren Motor Racing > Yardley Team McLaren > Marlboro Team Texaco > Marlboro Team McLaren > McLaren Peugeot(?) > McLaren Honda > West McLaren Mercedes > Team McLaren Mercedes > Vodafone McLaren Mercedes

I take my coat...


Ignoring the (merely cosmetic) sponsorship changes, it could be argued that "McLaren International" was a new team in 1981, taking over from "Bruce McLaren Motor Racing" - and merging with "Project Four Racing", of course, but mergers are an entirely different minefield, altogether!!

#21 RStock

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 00:02

OK, I'm going to walk a tightrope with this one and expect someone to push me off but, seems if we were tracing DNA this would work.

Shadow > (I think we all know the tentative connection I'm making here) Arrows > (Minardi purchased and used some Arrows chassis technology, so) > Minardi > Toro Rosso.

Edited by RStock, 14 August 2013 - 00:03.


#22 Mox

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 11:07

No, as a F1 team Stewart was started from scratch, based on Paul Stewart Racing which had competed in lower formulae. And I think Paul Stewart Racing was also started from scratch.


Ah yes - of course.


#23 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 14:59

They did take over the company - apparently the current Mercedes team operate under the same company registration number as Tyrrell did, as far as Companies House is concerned it is the same company.

But, I was surprised to find that the fuel tank on Tyrrell 026 said custom made for British American Racing on it...


In paperwork terms yes, but that's the only thing that survived. It's a bit like when a company wants to shortcut the procedures for trading on the stock market, and buys the dead remnants of another company. It's the sheet of paper only.

In racing terms I don't see a link between Tyrrell and BAR/Honda/Mercedes/whatever-comes-next. When you look at all the other team evolutions there's some level of continuity. They continued in the same location, or had the same team principal or at least upper management, etc. Generally the only thing that changes is the owner and the name over the door. The only thing left over from Tyrrell was the franchise paperwork, so they could skip the new team bond and try to get their prize money.

#24 Duc-Man

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 16:02

OK, I'm going to walk a tightrope with this one and expect someone to push me off but, seems if we were tracing DNA this would work.

Shadow > (I think we all know the tentative connection I'm making here) Arrows > (Minardi purchased and used some Arrows chassis technology, so) > Minardi > Toro Rosso.

You're on some thin ice there. Apart from the fact that ARROWS was founded by some key personnel that had left Shadow the connection ended when they turnd the FA1s over to Shadow.
This is almost like you would say that Lamborghini Automobili is a spin-off from Ferrari in road cars.

Why did they leave Shadow in the first place?

#25 D-Type

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:01

You're on some thin ice there. Apart from the fact that ARROWS was founded by some key personnel that had left Shadow the connection ended when they turnd the FA1s over to Shadow.
This is almost like you would say that Lamborghini Automobili is a spin-off from Ferrari in road cars.

Why did they leave Shadow in the first place?


According to David Hodges:

Its origins were in management disagreements in the Shadow team late in 1977; Jackie Oliver and Alan Rees left to form another team and were joined by designer Tony Southgate and draughtsman Dave Wass. Financial backing came from Italian Franco Ambrosio. The initial letters of their surnames were arranged to form the team's name. with an additional 'R' to make a word.

But he doesn't say what their disagreement with Shadow boss, Don Nichols, was about. Other writers suggest financial issues.


Edited by D-Type, 21 January 2014 - 15:09.


#26 Duc-Man

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 13:14

Thanks, Duncan.
I remember something like a comic strip about that affair in some german motorsport magazine. There was one image that I still see before me: Don Nichols being pissed-off ripping the Ambrosio decal off one of the cars. But that is all I remember.
Anybody seen that as well?

#27 Kaha

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 22:04

Could we include Scuderia Ferrari effectively being the Alfa Romeo factory team and then going on to manufacture their own cars?


No. the current SF F1 team has it roots from the Lancia F1 team... :)


#28 arttidesco

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:31

Thanks, Duncan.
I remember something like a comic strip about that affair in some german motorsport magazine. There was one image that I still see before me: Don Nichols being pissed-off ripping the Ambrosio decal off one of the cars. But that is all I remember.
Anybody seen that as well?

 

IIRC from a recent Jackie Oliver interview with Motorsport Jackie felt that not all the money being raised for the Shadow F1 team was being directed towards the Shadow F1 team and so Jackie decided to go his own way. I do remember the cartoon strip I think it appeared in one Britains daily papers like the Times of Telegraph.



#29 Roger Clark

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 13:31

No. the current SF F1 team has it roots from the Lancia F1 team... :)

Or the 1907 Grand Pix winner?



#30 Mox

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:33

Thanks for your input, everybody.

I have found this brilliant graphic over at imgur.

http://imgur.com/oo1xgIL?desktop=1



#31 jcbc3

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 13:22

How do I get the excel version?



#32 D-Type

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 15:11

How do I get the excel version?

I would think you should contact the website that posted it.  Please let us know how you get on.



#33 ensign14

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 15:17

While you're at it, tell them it's not Tyrell.