117 replies to this topic

[DrivenF1]

Ferrari had two options to win the championship:

 

(1) pit on lap 1 when the safety car happened

(2) stay out and build a big enough advantage over Rosberg to pit and come out ahead.

 

They did neither. You can trot out the line about 'hindsight' but you didn't need hindsight for this one. I was watching the race with three of my friends, when I saw Alonso pitting I instantly said that Alonso had lost the title because he wouldn't be able to pass both Petrov and Rosberg. The previous races both in that season and at Abu Dhabi in 2009 told us overtaking was pretty much impossible there. The rest of my friends were sceptical but I knew Alonso needed a lot of luck (retirements, mistake from Petrov or Vettel) to actually pull off the title.

 

It's subjective but I would have made a different decision if I was in Ferrari at the time, I can say that with certainty.

 

EDIT: There were only six overtakes in 2009, three of which were by Sutil.

Edited by Cult, 22 August 2013 - 11:04.

[lustigson]

-they covered the wrong red bull. it is always known that you look at what the leaders are doing, they are the bench mark. yes lewis and vettel were slow, but not that slow.

 

In the end, they did... but remember that it was Webber who was only 8 points behind Alonso in the standings, while Vettel was 16 points adrift.

 

Like I said before, Alonso and Ferrari didn't lose the championship(s) in Abu Dhabi, but over the course of the previous 18 Grands Prix in which they didn't accumulate enough points to ensure that they weren't too vulnerable come the finale.

[redreni]

In the end, they did... but remember that it was Webber who was only 8 points behind Alonso in the standings, while Vettel was 16 points adrift.

 

Like I said before, Alonso and Ferrari didn't lose the championship(s) in Abu Dhabi, but over the course of the previous 18 Grands Prix in which they didn't accumulate enough points to ensure that they weren't too vulnerable come the finale.

 

But if you take Abu Dhabi out of the equation, over the other races Alonso got the most points. So how did those races, where he scored more points than anybody else, cost him the title?

 

In the final race he needed a top 4 finish which, bearing in mind how slow Webber was, should have been easily achievable by simply following Vettel and the Mclarens home, every other car besides Red Bull and Mclaren being much slower than Ferrari. I realise there's nothing special about the last race and the points count just the same in each and every race, but going into the last race leading the championship is not an especially vulnerable position, particularly when your chief title rival has lost his head and lost his speed and isn't threatening to get a decent result, and your secondary title rival, though fast, is simply too far behind to be a factor in normal circumstances.

Edited by redreni, 22 August 2013 - 12:42.

[lustigson]

But if you take Abu Dhabi out of the equation, over the other races Alonso got the most points. So how did those races, where he scored more points than anybody else, cost him the title?

Agreed: more points than any other driver, but still not enough to not be vulnerable to attacks, DNF, or strategic errors come the final race.

[barcode]

That is what always got me, why did Alonso not just throw it down the inside at some point. He had to try something and if it didn't work out at least he tried, but to just sit there for the entire race was very strange, I have never seen a driver in his position just sit there like that. Maybe he was trying desperately but I think had Hamilton been in that position he would have done something maybe he would have crashed but some sort of decent attempt would have been made. Maybe I am being harsh on Alonso but that is how it looked when I was watching it on TV.

 

Hamilton actually was in the same position in the very same race, stuck behind the other Renault, and guess what, he was also helpless and did not look like overtaking the Renault. Want to know why? Because back then, it was basically impossible to get close enough to overtake a competitive car on almost every track no matter how hard you tried, the grip simply did not exist. So even if Alonso's life was on the line he could not do anything because he did not have the grip. Its amazing some folks do not understand this concept, especially in that era when passing was basically impossible especially on that track where even lower formula cars could not pass.

 

Ferrari's strategy decision was the dumbest one I have ever seen watching the sport, and clear suicide, motivated by blind panic, and they just gifted Vettel the title. I am still shocked to this day of the stupidity of what they did.

Edited by barcode, 30 August 2013 - 09:46.

[Lights]

It wasn't basically impossible to get close enough due to a lack of grip. The reason why Alonso (or Hamilton) couldn't overtake a Renault was because the straight line speed difference couldn't be made, mainly due to the RPM limit. I even remember that at the end of the straights, Alonso was fully in the limiter and the Renault was actually slightly driving away from him again. Alonso could stay quite close through the corners but at the end of the straights he was never in a position to out-brake him. Also, because the straights didn't end in hairpins but in 90 degrees corners, the corner entry speed wasn't even that low and you simply cannot get next to another car safely while you're several car lengths behind. If this fight gave you the impression that he just sat there and didn't try anything, you should look closer.

[barcode]

Sure, either way its ridiculous to blame any driver for not being able to overtake back then, and try to pretend that it was a matter of choice or lack of trying.

[f1motogp]

Of course it's always easy to say after wards what had to be done though i think the result had a lot to do with how Alonso drives in the championship deciding races. He relies too much on the bad luck and the mistakes of others instead of taking the risk himself.
 

You expect a championship contender to be able/ready to take some risks in their final race if they have to, after all Petrov was a rookie who made a lot of mistakes that year so he should have pressured him more.
 

[barcode]

Of course it's always easy to say after wards what had to be done though i think the result had a lot to do with how Alonso drives in the championship deciding races. He relies too much on the bad luck and the mistakes of others instead of taking the risk himself.
 

You expect a championship contender to be able/ready to take some risks in their final race if they have to, after all Petrov was a rookie who made a lot of mistakes that year so he should have pressured him more.
 

 

How could he pressure him more when lacked the top speed and down force to get close enough? Do you really think that knowing he would lose the championship in his current position, that Alonso held back even 1% against Petrov?

[Lights]

Of course it's always easy to say after wards what had to be done though i think the result had a lot to do with how Alonso drives in the championship deciding races. He relies too much on the bad luck and the mistakes of others instead of taking the risk himself.
 

You expect a championship contender to be able/ready to take some risks in their final race if they have to, after all Petrov was a rookie who made a lot of mistakes that year so he should have pressured him more.

You must be one of those persons who believes in drivers being able to 'outdrive' their cars.

[Winter98]

Ferrari's strategy decision was the dumbest one I have ever seen watching the sport, and clear suicide, motivated by blind panic, and they just gifted Vettel the title. I am still shocked to this day of the stupidity of what they did.

I find it hard to believe that Ferrari and Alonso hadn't evaluated the possible positional and pitstop scenarios vis a vis Alonso, Webber, and Vettel ahead of time.  Same thing if a SC car comes out.   What if it's in the first stint?  Second stint?  Do we cover or not?  

 

If they hadn't, then they have no one to blame but themselves.  If they did, and did that poorly,  same thing applies.

Edited by Winter98, 31 August 2013 - 15:06.

[MikeV1987]

http://www.f1fanatic...p-in-abu-dhabi/

[sopa]

Interesting remark in that blog that Webber had just recently at Singapore done the same thing and actually overtaken people. So Ferrari underrated the difficulty to overtake on the Abu Dhabi circuit, compared to other circuits too.

[mzvztag]

Unfortunately, they did stand the chance.

It is still one of the most painful F1-related memories I ever got. They should have approached the race much more systematically, they had all the information (or should have) like Petrov having better top speed, the general difficulty of overtaking, etc.

 

It's funny that in most of the crucial moments, Alonso's former team stood between him and another world title:

 

2010 - Abu Dhabi - Petrov makes no mistakes under enormous pressure, in a season when he made a lot of mistakes otherwise

2012 - Spa - Grosjean takes out Alonso at Spa in one of the stupidest moves seen for years

2012 - Japan - Räikkönen makes probably the only contact with another driver in that season's races and it immediately caused Alonso's retirement

2012 - Abu Dhabi - Räikkönen gets all the safety cars right and wins ahead of Alonso

 

Had just one of those things not happened, or went just slightly the different way, Alonso would have won in 2010 or 2012.

Edited by mzvztag, 01 September 2013 - 14:54.

[Winter98]

Unfortunately, they did stand the chance.

It is still one of the most painful F1-related memories I ever got. They should have approached the race much more systematically, they had all the information (or should have) like Petrov having better top speed, the general difficulty of overtaking, etc.

 

It's funny that in most of the crucial moments, Alonso's former team stood between him and another world title:

 

2010 - Abu Dhabi - Petrov makes no mistakes under enormous pressure, in a season when he made a lot of mistakes otherwise

2012 - Spa - Grosjean takes out Alonso at Spa in one of the stupidest moves seen for years

2012 - Japan - Räikkönen makes probably the only contact with another driver in that season's races and it immediately caused Alonso's retirement

2012 - Abu Dhabi - Räikkönen gets all the safety cars right and wins ahead of Alonso

 

Had just one of those things not happened, or went just slightly the different way, Alonso would have won in 2010 or 2012.

 

In sports, it's amazing how often the difference between champion and runner-up is a matter of inches on one or two critical plays.

[mzvztag]

In sports, it's amazing how often the difference between champion and runner-up is a matter of inches on one or two critical plays.

 

Exactly. But in Alonso's case it's amazing how many times the Enstone team drivers intervened. If I were superstitious, I would say it's a curse.

[bourbon]

Unfortunately, they did stand the chance.

It is still one of the most painful F1-related memories I ever got. They should have approached the race much more systematically, they had all the information (or should have) like Petrov having better top speed, the general difficulty of overtaking, etc.

 

It's funny that in most of the crucial moments, Alonso's former team stood between him and another world title:

 

2010 - Abu Dhabi - Petrov makes no mistakes under enormous pressure, in a season when he made a lot of mistakes otherwise

2012 - Spa - Grosjean takes out Alonso at Spa in one of the stupidest moves seen for years

2012 - Japan - Räikkönen makes probably the only contact with another driver in that season's races and it immediately caused Alonso's retirement

2012 - Abu Dhabi - Räikkönen gets all the safety cars right and wins ahead of Alonso

 

Had just one of those things not happened, or went just slightly the different way, Alonso would have won in 2010 or 2012.

 

That is assuming nothing else changed; but of course that is unlikely.  What if petrov made a mistake, but then Alonso got a puncture from the debrie that set him back even more places?  What if Grosjean hadn't had his brain fart in SPA, but Alonso's hydraulics went; and so on...   Plus, changes for Alonso necessarily means changes for others in those races - so you never know. 

[EricSivry]

In the end, they did... but remember that it was Webber who was only 8 points behind Alonso in the standings, while Vettel was 16 points adrift.

 

They covered Webber because he could have taken 4th place off them, not because he was closer in the championship standings.

 

At that point in the race, Webber was pretty much out of the championship running (he needed to pass Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Vettel which was not likely). For Ferrari they needed 4th place and that was it. They were scared Webber would pass them through the pitstop sequence, thus demoting Alonso to 5th. I guess they thought Webber would make light work of the traffic (as he did in Singapore when he passed Kobayashi and Schumacher). As someone above said, they underrated the difficulty of passing at he Yas Marina Circuit.

 

On another note, Massa could well have outqualifed Webber. He passed the S/F line just in time to start his last flying lap, but he backed off because he thought he didn't make it in time. Even after this, during the race, he pitted to cover Webber. He had a problem at the pit stop which cost him 1 second. Without that he would have been out in front of Webber, and with Webber tucked up behind Massa, Alonso could have waited until later to pit.

 

As for Alonso's bad start, it did not help but it made the team edgier. If he remained 3rd, he would at least have the cushion of knowing that if he lost a place, he would still be in a championship winning position. However, Alonso's starts were often not brilliant that year because he was uncomofortable with the clutch system.