97 replies to this topic

[danmills]

Something has bothered me a long time, and I am puzzled still to this day why the career of Ralf Schumacher is ridiculed so easily?

Let's get the obvious out of the way first: he wasn't Michael. He was never going to quite live that down.

He did, however, score a podium in pretty much every single one of his racing seasons starting with a 3rd in only his third ever race. The only time he didn't get one? In 2007 for Toyota when he was plagued by both mechanical and driver error retirements. He was probably past his prime to be fair, and the overall season results tell.

But looking at his F1 career as a whole, its impressive. He was very much a Mr 4th/5th/6th place man. Consistent, and occasionally very quick. The Williams of those years was a great little machine, as were the late 90's Jordans. But its still the driver who does the groundwork.

Ralf was a very decent driver. Today, I can see Rosberg filling the same mould. Quick, the odd win, very consistent results, but lacking the final finishing of killer instinct to ever make him a champion. 6 Wins and 27 podiums in a decade of racing. Not bad at all.

Anyone else agree? Or are you on the bashing side of the fence with the rest?

Edited by danmills, 14 August 2013 - 13:24.

[MikeTekRacing]

the Schumacher name certainly helped him along the way. Ironic is that the same name "killed" his career since he was always benchmarked against Michael..who was at the peak point of his career (at least results wise - winning everything)

Ralf was a very good driver, better than some more respected "stars"

[Jimisgod]

Something has bothered me a long time, and I am puzzled still to this day why the career of Ralf Schumacher is ridiculed so easily?

Let's get the obvious out of the way first: he wasn't Michael. He was never going to quite live that down.

He did, however, score a podium in pretty much every single one of his racing seasons starting with a 3rd in only his third ever race. The only time he didn't get one? In 2007 for Toyota when he was plagued by both mechanical and driver error retirements. He was probably past his prime to be fair, and the overall season results tell.

But looking at his F1 career as a whole, its impressive. He was very much a Mr 4th/5th/6th place man. Consistent, and occasionally very quick. The Williams of those years was a great little machine, as were the late 90's Jordans. But its still the driver who does the groundwork.

Ralf was a very decent driver. Today, I can see Rosberg filling the same mould. Quick, the odd win, very consistent results, but lacking the final finishing of killer instinct to ever make him a champion. 6 Wins and 27 podiums in a decade of racing. Not bad at all.

Anyone else agree? Or are you on the bashing side of the fence with the rest?

Rosberg is a better driver. Unquestionably. He has troubled Hamilton, a driver better than any of Ralf's teammates. Ralf was never quite as good as either Montoya or Trulli, and it is only be benefit of the great BMW-Williams of 2001-03 that he had such great statistics.

I am a firm believer that the 2003 Williams was the best car for most of the season. And the 2001 and 2002 cars were also about 2nd best after Ferrari. A driver of Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi calibre would have won with the 2003 car, so he is not on that level. Montoya was mostly trounced by Kimi in 2005 and half of 2006, and JPM was still head and shoulders over Ralf in Ralf's prime.

[sopa]

Ralf Schumacher was at least current Rosberg/Webber calibre. Which means - on his day capable of winning/beating everybody, but not quite bullet-proof consistent across all season, which was detrimental to title hopes.

[danmills]

His debut years with Jordan were also impressive, so you can't put all his tally down to a few good seasons with Williams!

Consistency speaks volumes, and he had lots of it. Like Heidfeld. Though not many flashes of brilliance.

[discover23]

agree with the OP. Ralf was today's Rosberg/Webber.

[jcbc3]

..

Consistency speaks volumes, and he had lots of it. Like Heidfeld. Though not many flashes of brilliance.

He had more than Heidfeld. And this from a certified Heidfeld fan.

Ralf was an extremely competent and capable F1 driver. He had a wonderful career with race victories. He may not have been from the ultimate top drawer like his brother, but he was pretty darn close.

[sopa]

Rosberg is a better driver. Unquestionably. He has troubled Hamilton, a driver better than any of Ralf's teammates. Ralf was never quite as good as either Montoya or Trulli, and it is only be benefit of the great BMW-Williams of 2001-03 that he had such great statistics.

I am a firm believer that the 2003 Williams was the best car for most of the season. And the 2001 and 2002 cars were also about 2nd best after Ferrari. A driver of Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi calibre would have won with the 2003 car, so he is not on that level. Montoya was mostly trounced by Kimi in 2005 and half of 2006, and JPM was still head and shoulders over Ralf in Ralf's prime.

Rosberg better, because he beat Hamilton a few occasions? Ugh. I sure remember Ralf Schumacher racing with his brother Michael nose-to-tail on quite a few occasions, when their cars were comparable. Beat Michael in an outright battle in Canada 2001.

Actually JPM was not head and shoulders above. Perhaps across four seasons he was a tiny bit more consistent. And it is well-known Montoya wasn't as good at McLaren as he had been at Williams.

[spacekid]

Ralf was imperssive when he came in to the sport. I would not ridicule him.

However, he did decline. He had two crashes that I think were said to have knocked him - one was Indy, I can't remember the other, but I think it was at Monza.

I think he drew some criticism for having what was seen as a disproportionatly large wage while at Toyota. Now thats hardly his fault - who wouldn't take the money? - but people don't like that sort of thing. I think he is also was associated with Toyota's general lack of success, and that sort of thing rubs off.

Not a bad driver at all, had some good results, faded as his career went on. His surname was certainly a blessing (I'm sure the sponsors liked it) and a curse (unrealistic expectations).

[redreni]

I was a fan of Ralf's since his F3000 days and expected to see him win a lot more than six races in his career. I think he was on a steady upward trajectory but I don't think he was quite the same driver after he was involved in a series of rather serious accidents e.g. Monza 2003, Indy 2004 and Indy 2005. I also don't think he ever formed the kind of relationship with his race engineer that would have enabled him to challenge for the title. But at the same time, neither Jordan nor Williams provided him with the equipment to do much more than win the odd race - in 2003 the Williams was a decent car with the best engine but it was only really capable of winning on the power circuits. He was still a perfectly capable driver even in the latter part of his F1 career and in the DTM but he had definitely lost his edge and a lot of his raw speed compared to his peak in 1999-2003.

I wouldn't rank him up there with any of the world champions or Jim Clarke or Gilles Villeneuve or anything like that but I would rate him higher than his win tally would put him in the all-time list. I'd certainly rate him above David Coulthard, for example, who spent most of his career in much more competitive machinery and achieved proportionately less. And I'd rate him above Irvine or Barrichello for the same reason.

[eronrules]

so are we gonna reminiscent about all the Williams BMW pensioneers??? first it was about JPM, them Ralf schumi, also mark webbo is retiring and soon in a couple of year we'll do the same about Nico Rosberg unless he manages to secure a WDC by then. we had similar threads about Nick heidfeld as well ...


it's strange that the only driver to win a WDC from the former Williams BMW era is Jensen button, and he did it by not driving for the sinking ship in 2005.

anyway, back to current topic, little schumi was always under the shadow of the big schumi, but he had talent. he was good with Jordan, showing his fist against heavyweight Damon hill, he reached his peak during the BMW era, but then made some horrible decision to end up to the history's garbage bin (toyota deal ... the same fate occured to Jarno Trulli Btw followed by DTM run).

however, he'll forever be shadowed by his brother in F1 history, despite all his achievements

[Group B]

Rosberg is a better driver. Unquestionably. He has troubled Hamilton, a driver better than any of Ralf's teammates. Ralf was never quite as good as either Montoya or Trulli, and it is only be benefit of the great BMW-Williams of 2001-03 that he had such great statistics.

I am a firm believer that the 2003 Williams was the best car for most of the season. And the 2001 and 2002 cars were also about 2nd best after Ferrari. A driver of Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi calibre would have won with the 2003 car, so he is not on that level. Montoya was mostly trounced by Kimi in 2005 and half of 2006, and JPM was still head and shoulders over Ralf in Ralf's prime.

Awful lot of factual stretches and memory lapses in there, frankly. Still, love the cheapshot omission of Vettel from your drivers-who-could list

[Group B]

He had more than Heidfeld. And this from a certified Heidfeld fan.

Ralf was an extremely competent and capable F1 driver. He had a wonderful career with race victories. He may not have been from the ultimate top drawer like his brother, but he was pretty darn close.

Yep. On his day very, very fast, but never quite managed the consistency or completeness of his brother.

[eronrules]

btw, i dont think RAlf was seldom under-rated and if my memory serves me right, never insulted, forget over-insulted. he was criticized for his behavior during his Toyota days but never insulted. i don't know why the OP chose that title TBH????

[MikeTekRacing]

Yep. On his day very, very fast, but never quite managed the consistency or completeness of his brother.

very true but how many drivers are evaluated by that benchmark?

his brother was pretty good..

[Lucass]

Ralf was an extremely competent and capable F1 driver. He had a wonderful career with race victories. He may not have been from the ultimate top drawer like his brother, but he was pretty darn close.

I agree he had a very respectable career with some victories, some very impressive races and on his day he could beat even the best.
The irony is that the Schumacher name which helped him reach F1 later on became a hindrance as he was always compared to his uber talented and successful brother.

He had a good run and made a nice chunk of $$$ with his Toyota deal
but still he should never have gifted Hill that Jordan win in Belgium

[Garagiste]

Personality issues at the heart of the "overinsulting" thing I suspect.
He was a decent peddler, and was one of the few in possession of a brain @ Spa 98 but he didn't smile a lot. Nothing wrong with that, my face doesn't fall naturally into a smile either, it's just not very endearing.
When I had the huge privilege to spend some time in the Williams garage back in the day, JPM was - as you might expect - opinionated and arrogant, yet entertaining, open to conversation and spent time with anybody who said hello. Ralf blanked everybody and spoke only into his mobile.

[tkulla]

Definitely underrated. He had an impressive list of teammates... Fisichella (in his prime), Hill (tail end but still hungry), Zanardi (in his prime), Button (rookie year), JPM (in his prime), and Jarno (who is underrated himself). Against that lineup he won six times and his teammates won five (and that's including the team orders win for Hill at Jordan - I seem to recall Ralf on his diffusor in that race), and his finishing ahead rate is almost dead even (79-80). Considering all but Zanardi were race winners, and two have been WDCs that's not bad at all.

[MikeTekRacing]

but still he should never have gifted Hill that Jordan win in Belgium

team order. he was a schumacher, disciplined..

[Wingcommander]

"Ralf Schumacher is as fast as he is unpleasant" -Alex Zanardi

[ebc]

I always liked Ralf and thought he was an excellent driver who matched his teammates throughout his career. He was not at the elite level like his brother but I think he was someone who could have been world champion in the right circumstances like Hill and Button but it never seemed to happen for him but very fast on his day.

[ensign14]

Ralf can at least say he was half of the most successful set of siblings in World Championship history, as he and his brother have 7 titles between them.

[MansellsMoustache]

in 2003 the Williams was a decent car with the best engine but it was only really capable of winning on the power circuits

Oh? You mean like Monaco, Nurburgring, Magny-Cours and the new Hockenheim?

I think you mean the 2001/2002 Williams, the FW25 in 2003 was strong everywhere once they sorted it.

[7MGTEsup]

Ralf can at least say he was half of the most successful set of siblings in World Championship history, as he and his brother have 7 titles between them.

Brilliant

[alframsey]

I agree with the op also, plus he was much more like-able than his brother.

[danmills]

The topic of the title refers to the fact (imho) he seems to be the butt of a lot of jokes across various forums when he seldom crops up. He doesn't get mentioned that much (overlooked and underrated) and when he has done, people are quick to bash him.

Maybe not so much here, I've not been here long enough, but in other forums and sites.

Like the whole sniffpetrol thing, its funny, but people extend the stereotype that he was tripe. But he wasn't!

[danmills]

On a sidenote, Ralf was walking around the middle of Whittlebury park campsite in Silverstone 2007 on Saturday afternoon just strolling.

Hardly anyone approached him or seemed interested. Crazy. He was very pleasant and welcoming to fans.

[KWSN - DSM]

Ralf Schumacher was a very good F1 driver, I do not agree that he made it to F1 only based on being a Schumacher, I agree that he was helped by being named Schumacher, however he finished 2nd in the German F3 championship 1995, he won Macua F3 in 1995 and he was the FNippon (F3000?) champion in 1996.

In F1 he was consistently teamed with highly rated drivers, and for all intents and purposes matched all of them. He obliterated Zanardis F1 career, by absolutely outracing him the full season. If one chose not to come with excuse and use the rear view mirror, then Zanardi was supposed to be a great driver when joining Williams.

His apparent morose personality was used against him, but I do not think he can be singled out as being unique in that regard. At a minimum a Coulthard talent driver.

[seahawk]

the biggest problem was that he never had a team fully behind him, giving him a capable car. Williams-BMW was never a functional relationship and he was always "the German" they had to take for the engines.

[UPRC]

This subject has always bothered me. Ralf has had some REALLY awesome drivers throughout his career that looked as good as the drives produced by the so called mega stars of today. Sure Ralf had some attitude problems when he was in F1, but was a very good driver and was always one of the top guys in the majority of his seasons. The internet, and these forums in particular, have always been much harder on him than he deserved.

[Jackmancer]

I think the biggest problem with Ralf is that he approached most interviews like this

[kismet]

Most things in life should be approached like that.

About Ralf, though... I believe one of my now dead-and-buried message board personas once described his grumpy self as being no less WDC material than his then highly rated and very popular teammate whose first WDC title was basically just a matter of time. As it happens, up until today, they've collected a grand total of zero WDCs between the two of them so I guess I was inadvertently right after all. Redemption!

Edited by kismet, 14 August 2013 - 17:32.

[ardbeg]

He was ok, but expectations was high. Not his fault his brother was so successful. Still, I doubt he'd ever been in F1 with another last name, so it was always going to be difficult. He had to prove he was someone he was not. He was Ralf Schumacher, but most people saw him as "Schumachers little brother".

Underrated, OP say, I don't think so. He was compared, rated, against Michael and he came up short. Most drivers did.
But insulted? Where? By whom? He was reasonably respected both in the paddock and by fans.

[alframsey]

Ralf Schumacher was a very good F1 driver, I do not agree that he made it to F1 only based on being a Schumacher, I agree that he was helped by being named Schumacher, however he finished 2nd in the German F3 championship 1995, he won Macua F3 in 1995 and he was the FNippon (F3000?) champion in 1996.

In F1 he was consistently teamed with highly rated drivers, and for all intents and purposes matched all of them. He obliterated Zanardis F1 career, by absolutely outracing him the full season. If one chose not to come with excuse and use the rear view mirror, then Zanardi was supposed to be a great driver when joining Williams.

His apparent morose personality was used against him, but I do not think he can be singled out as being unique in that regard. At a minimum a Coulthard talent driver.

Now while I think Ralf gets an unfairly bad time, I think what you say is doing DC a disservice.

[Sin]

In germany he had a nickname too through popular television host Stefan Raab, who called him Porno-Ralle, when he had some business going with Beate Uhse :o... he also called his wife Hardcora

:O and I simply didn't like him cause he was neither Heinz-Harald Frentzen nor his Teammate :O back in the days that... was all I needed to dislike him xD

Edited by Sin, 14 August 2013 - 17:51.

[Vitesse2]

"Ralf Schumacher is as fast as he is unpleasant" -Alex Zanardi

Or, as Mike Lawrence put it - Ralf's a little sh1t: he made himself thoroughly detested at that year's FoS, thanks to his petulant attitude which meant he just sat and sulked in the Drivers' Club for the entire weekend. I'm no admirer of either Schumacher brother, but I can't actually see Michael - except perhaps right at the beginning of his career before Willi Weber had him fully trained in handling himself - acting the way Ralfie did that weekend.

[pUs]

I'd say he was extremely underrated, at least up until around 2004-something. For whatever reason, crashes or what it was, he lost something around that time.

Personally I will always remember him for his driving in 1999. He was absolutely splendid during the whole year in that Williams. Total consistency.

[BoschKurve]

What solidified my belief in Ralf's talent was what he did with the Williams FW21.

He drove that thing far better than anyone could have expected at all. Too bad that Supertec engine wasn't a better engine as I think he very easily could have won at Monza that year with more power.

[Tenmantaylor]

What do you mean, overinsulted?

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 14 August 2013 - 19:53.

[OO7]

Beat Michael in an outright battle in Canada 2001.

In a car that was a second a lap quicker if I recall correctly.

[redreni]

Oh? You mean like Monaco, Nurburgring, Magny-Cours and the new Hockenheim?

I think you mean the 2001/2002 Williams, the FW25 in 2003 was strong everywhere once they sorted it.

True, I was indeed thinking of 01/02. The 2003 car was decent on most tracks though not as reliable as the Ferrari, and Ralf was putting a decent title challenge together up until Silverstone where Williams didn't screw the bargeboards on tight enough and he ended up 7th, after which he went on an extraordinary run of no-scores and DNFs most of which were not his fault, which put him way out of title contention. I don't think the Williams was a match for the Ferrari that season - it was competitive in most places, but the kind of pace it showed at Magny-Cours in very hot conditions was not replicated at other circuits where conditions were cooler and more suited to the bespoke Bridgestones Ferrari had.

[Currahee]

"Ralf Schumacher is as fast as he is unpleasant" -Alex Zanardi

Great quote.

But he can't have been too unpleasant. I heard he was one of only 2 drivers to visit DC after his plane crash.

[SpeedRacer`]

Rosberg is a better driver. Unquestionably. He has troubled Hamilton, a driver better than any of Ralf's teammates. Ralf was never quite as good as either Montoya or Trulli, and it is only be benefit of the great BMW-Williams of 2001-03 that he had such great statistics.

I am a firm believer that the 2003 Williams was the best car for most of the season. And the 2001 and 2002 cars were also about 2nd best after Ferrari. A driver of Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi calibre would have won with the 2003 car, so he is not on that level. Montoya was mostly trounced by Kimi in 2005 and half of 2006, and JPM was still head and shoulders over Ralf in Ralf's prime.

Ralf beat Trulli in 2005 and 2006, he only went truly off the boil in his final season.

[expert]

Or, as Mike Lawrence put it - Ralf's a little ****: he made himself thoroughly detested at that year's FoS, thanks to his petulant attitude which meant he just sat and sulked in the Drivers' Club for the entire weekend. I'm no admirer of either Schumacher brother, but I can't actually see Michael - except perhaps right at the beginning of his career before Willi Weber had him fully trained in handling himself - acting the way Ralfie did that weekend.

Meh. If he's not feeling that kind of thing then he's not feeling it. Who knows what else was going on that made him not want to come out and act the super hero for a bunch of journalists.

Of course, Kimi has somehow managed the art of getting away with not playing that game. Maybe it's the funny accent. *




* I'm saying this as a Kimi fan

[KWSN - DSM]

Now while I think Ralf gets an unfairly bad time, I think what you say is doing DC a disservice.

Saying that Ralf and David were at same level? Not sure how you see that.

[KWSN - DSM]

In germany he had a nickname too through popular television host Stefan Raab, who called him Porno-Ralle, when he had some business going with Beate Uhse ... he also called his wife Hardcora

and I simply didn't like him cause he was neither Heinz-Harald Frentzen nor his Teammate back in the days that... was all I needed to dislike him xD

He was a better driver than Frentzen. Stefan Raab may be popular in Germany, but if you get popular through vulgar preening to the lowest common denominator, then I do not give much for him.

[Knot]

Ralf was imperssive when he came in to the sport. I would not ridicule him.

However, he did decline. He had two crashes that I think were said to have knocked him - one was Indy, I can't remember the other, but I think it was at Monza.

I think he drew some criticism for having what was seen as a disproportionatly large wage while at Toyota. Now thats hardly his fault - who wouldn't take the money? - but people don't like that sort of thing. I think he is also was associated with Toyota's general lack of success, and that sort of thing rubs off.

Not a bad driver at all, had some good results, faded as his career went on. His surname was certainly a blessing (I'm sure the sponsors liked it) and a curse (unrealistic expectations).

He punched above his weight in his prime.

The two severe concussions he received ended his career. The first one at Indy was the big ender, he lost all spark he had, and the practice shunt at Monza sealed it.

[Brother Fox]

I always had the feeling that Ralf was a good bloke to have if you wanted to lap a car round a circuit quickly and consistently, but not the one you'd want to bet on in a 4 way scrap with 2 laps to go.
Maybe becuase of the inevitable comparison to Michael, he didnt seem to have that same killer instinct that the top few have (and Michael has in spades).


I remember somewhere reading him being referred to as 'the left Schu' ... because he certainly wasnt the right one!

[Outsider]

He punched above his weight in his prime.

The two severe concussions he received ended his career. The first one at Indy was the big ender, he lost all spark he had, and the practice shunt at Monza sealed it.

Monza (2003) was before Indy crash. I liked Ralfie, I cheered when he won his first GP, however I think his crashes ended his career. in 2007 both Trulli and Ralf sucked, one had 8 points, other 5. I also remember that once Trulli and Ralfie were teammates commentators said that when car sucks, Ralf gets more out of it than Trulli and that shows, i was rather surprised when Toyota signed Trulli after 2006

[Icicle]

Not sure if it is factually correct but I read somewhere that If you remove all the races Ralf Schumacher missed at Williams, he has better record against Montoya.

How different things would have been for McLaren if they signed him instead of Montoya?