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Mercedes engine to have a big power advantage? 100hp rumoured in AMuS!


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#1 DFV

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 19:16

According to a report today in AMuS the Mercedes engine could have as much as 100hp more than Renault and Ferrari...

http://www.auto-moto...il-7564699.html


Google translate:

Formula 1 change of power in 2014?

Mercedes engine with great advantage?

With the new V6 turbo engine for the 2014 season, the engine will play a bigger role. Accurate data, the three producers to be announced. Nevertheless, there are signs that the Mercedes competition is a good bit ahead.

For almost four years now Red Bull has dominated the event in Formula 1 Sebastian Vettel goes from victory to victory and from title to title. The competition was the World Champion subscription between bouts fret. At the end of the season of Heppenheim but had always reason to stretch the index finger in the air.

However, with the large control reform in 2014 the chances are good that the balance of power in F1 could change sustainable. The best conditions for Red Bull to be distributed from the top, has the Mercedes works team. Already this season, the Silver Arrows have emerged as the pursuer. If the tires continue to hold as well as in Hungary, Lewis Hamilton this year even an outside chance at the title.

Motor important than aerodynamics?

Here, the British had actually been lured with promises of Mercedes, in 2014 to take the big attack on the Vettel troupe. The reason for the optimism is the star driver in the new regulations. The aerodynamics - one of the great strengths of Red Bull - is cut next season. For this, the drive gets a higher priority.

The three engine manufacturers Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault for more than 2 years already working on the new engines. In addition to the performance, especially the compact housing of the many elements (cooling, KERS, turbo, ancillaries) and the reliability will play the key roles.

So far, the three engine suppliers keep still covered what the current performance is concerned. However, there are signs that Mercedes is one step ahead of the competition. In particular, the discussion of the dimensions of the rear tire recently in Hungary is an indication that the V6 turbo from Brixworth has a bit more smoke on the chain.

Wider tires for Mercedes-power

The Mercedes executives have turned to the first performance concern to the FIA. Your concern: 2014 need to get to the increased power to the road wider rear tires forth. The maximum system performance should be in qualifying trim up to 850 hp. The maximum torque increases from 320 Nm to 600 Nm - as the tires rotate in the 4th and 5 Transition nor if the pilot does not sensitively deal with the gas pedal.

Renault and Ferrari, however, were of the opinion that wider tires are not required to obtain the higher load under control. Then the two Mercedes competitors were asked to disclose their performance compared to Pirelli. After analysis of the predicted values, and after consultation with the tire specialist, the FIA ​​would appear to share the concerns of Mercedes. According to the latest plans in 2014 to 2 centimeters wider rubber to be driven on the drive axle.

Mercedes engine with 100 hp more?

In particular, the values ​​of Mercedes give cause for concern. In the paddock it is said behind closed doors that the Silver Arrow engine should make 100 hp more than the aggregate of Renault and Ferrari. This one does not confirm at Mercedes of course. But those in charge make an unusually confident impression when it comes to the topic of driving.

And the pilots look next season with optimism. "2014 is a huge opportunity for us," Rosberg said recently. However, you should Sebastian Vettel, Adrian Newey and Co. know, do not write too fast.



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#2 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 19:21

I'm sure Merc would want wider rears right now given they are so good at burning them up.

I wouldn't mind one bit to be honest. Manufacturers who do the best job should be rewarded and it'll make a change.

Might alao give McLaren a chance to get on the podium again before Honda come in and mess it all up with a VTEC no doubt.

#3 undersquare

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 19:29

I don't see how they can have 100 hp more with the same fuel flow. The energy release from K/H ERS is controlled too isn't it?

#4 Big Block 8

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 19:36

I don't see how they can have 100 hp more with the same fuel flow. The energy release from K/H ERS is controlled too isn't it?


If the maximum fuel flow is limited and same for everyone (is it really?) then it's possible for someone to have better thermal efficiency than the rest, which means more power extracted for that someone. 100 hp advantage with units approx 850 hp sounds quite a lot regardless, hard to imagine someone could be so much more efficient than the rest.

#5 ApexMouse

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 19:51

I'm sure Merc would want wider rears right now given they are so good at burning them up.

I wouldn't mind one bit to be honest. Manufacturers who do the best job should be rewarded and it'll make a change.

Might alao give McLaren a chance to get on the podium again before Honda come in and mess it all up with a VTEC no doubt.


I have no words.

#6 Blackmore

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 19:57

If all the rumors are correct, next season will be a podium fight between Mercedes engined cars only. And now the FIA is listening to Mercedes demanding wider tyres to accommodate their stronger engine.

So exciting...

How is a team working hard to get the best aero, worse than a few teams having a superior engine through cash? The latter is even worse because the other teams can't do anything without an equal/stronger engine.

At the moment people can compete against another team through aero updates. People keep saying how RBR is dominant in that area but last year the McLaren was better at it (fastest car), this year the Ferrari was faster (until Monaco), Lotus was faster a few times and equal a lot of times, Mercedes is definitely faster over a lap and sometimes in the race too. So teams can still compete. But you can't against a superior engine with the new regulations coming next season (that do cut advancements in other areas that would gain you speed).

Every time we have a competitive field, they change things to screw it up. 2010 season was the most competitive one of the last decades and look at how all those changes effected everything negatively. If it wasn't for my long-time support of F1 and it being a part of my life, I would drop it.



#7 rasul

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:05

That will make the next season incredibly boring if true.

#8 SUPRAF1

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:12

If I remember correctly, Mercedes didn't say they want wider tyres, they simply said it did not matter to them, while other teams rejected the proposal.

I'd want wider tyres though, otherwise it's a handicap to those who developed their engines really well (and they look cool).

#9 Tommay

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:27

I can't believe people are already complaining that one team will have a to big advantage. This is F1, if the team or manufactors have done a better job then so be it!

PS: 2011, a year Vettel dominated, had some of the best races. Although the fight for 1st wasn't great, the rest was pretty exciting!

#10 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:31

That will make the next season incredibly boring if true.


an 8 car championship isn't too bad

#11 P123

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:34

Stating who has an advantage, before any engines have hit the track? :stoned:

I suspect that should any engine prove to have a significant advantage then there will be a degree of equalisation allowed for the other manufacturers.

#12 undersquare

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:37

If the maximum fuel flow is limited and same for everyone (is it really?) then it's possible for someone to have better thermal efficiency than the rest, which means more power extracted for that someone. 100 hp advantage with units approx 850 hp sounds quite a lot regardless, hard to imagine someone could be so much more efficient than the rest.

Yeah fuel flow is limited to a max rate of 100l/hr and regen energy to 150 bhp. The petrol engine was to be only 650 or so, in theory, though there have been stories about that being a big underestimate of up to 100 hp, but it's hard to imagine only one team finding that difference.

It would be a disaster for the racing. Can't see it though, it's too huge for efficiency as you say.

#13 Tommay

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:39

Posted this in Mercedes thread

I hope they don't say to the others teams you can catch up while Mercedes can't do anything if that is the case. They should just continue to allow them devolop equally. If they really want the technology to be used in road cars, then don't restrict it.


Edited by Tommay, 14 August 2013 - 20:40.


#14 F1ultimate

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:40

How on earth can AMuS know such sensitive data about three engines which havent reached the end of development yet? :drunk:

#15 study

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:43

How on earth can AMuS know such sensitive data about three engines which havent reached the end of development yet? :drunk:


FIA asked each manufacturer for estimates to enable them to determine the tyre widths next year

#16 ApexOversteer

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 20:46

Where are they pulling this magical 100bhp figure from? Their arses?

It's not like all the engine units have been dyno'ed for comparisons.

lmao

#17 F1ultimate

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:04

FIA asked each manufacturer for estimates to enable them to determine the tyre widths next year


Cool. Lets hope they exaggerate the output to the point that the cars might require a third axle.

#18 ATM_Andy

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:09

I wouldn't believe everything you read...

#19 Markn93

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:25

I wouldn't believe everything you read...

:up:

Expecting it to be close then?

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#20 F.M.

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:33

:rotfl:

100hp difference. Obviously there will, especially at the start, be differences in both power and driveability, but nowhere near 100hp

I do have a feeling that Ferrari will produce the least competitive engine though...

#21 danmills

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:56

Don't forget, Williams will be having Mercedes power for 2014 too! :D

#22 maverick69

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 22:08

Jeez. Good job I read that again.

I first thought it read: "Mercedes engine to have a big power advantage? 100hp rumored in Anus!"

As for the 100hp - you're never gonna get that difference from the ICE with the companies involved. Even the likes of Brian Hart were never that far away from the big boys in terms of specific output in normal racing conditions.

As for the ERS, KERS, His and hers , I think reliability is the key - and as a result, the teams will be give or take the same.

I would love it to be true though!

#23 slmk

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 22:35

:up:

Expecting it to be close then?


Considering his "team" moved to another engine provider...

#24 SanDiegoGo

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:46

I wouldn't believe everything you read...


Maybe they were referring to the Mercedes power unit that Mercedes GP will be using and not the Mercedes power unit that McLaren GP will be getting. Gnomesayin'?  ;)

:lol:


#25 pingu666

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:09

100hp is alot, i think the derv's at le mans had typicaly 80hp more than the petrol cars

#26 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:45

Might alao give McLaren a chance to get on the podium again before Honda come in and mess it all up with a VTEC no doubt.

Why would a racing car need a VTEC? The low-lift cams (vtec off) are for making a road car that's economical to drive in traffic I thought, which is irrelevant for a racing car which is always using aggressive cam all the time?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 August 2013 - 03:46.


#27 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:48

Every time we have a competitive field, they change things to screw it up.

Half true but it seems incredibly unlikely that Mercedes will actually have a such a big advantage. Maybe a smaller one? Renaultsport and Ferrari are not sleeping! They know what they are doing.

#28 CHIUNDA

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 04:56

The assumption being that Mercedes engineers are incredibly more resourceful compared to those at Renault and Ferrari ... little evidence of that in the last couple years.

#29 Hyatt

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:01

They are just hyping Merc up to have more fun seeing them fail again ....

#30 lbennie

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:07

If this is really true, good on them, they deserve to dominate next year.

that is a massive gap though.

#31 bourbon

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:17

um no. I prefer the status quo. :D

Kidding - in the end, these things equal out.

Ferrari won't have it any other way.

#32 seahawk

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:23

It would be good for F1. Car makers ( engine builiders suddenly get a motivation to koin F1, if they are allowed to beat the competition clearly.

#33 quidam

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:49

If you change the tyre width , you have to rebuild your car because of the car will be higher (the rake).

#34 loki

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:06

In related news an Italian publication says the Ferrari will be the best while a French journo has gone on record as saying the Renault will be best...

#35 DS27

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:06

If you change the tyre width , you have to rebuild your car because of the car will be higher (the rake).


You might want to re-think that.

#36 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:10

If you change the tyre width , you have to rebuild your car because of the car will be higher (the rake).


:confused:

#37 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:30

I'm sure Merc would want wider rears right now given they are so good at burning them up.

I wouldn't mind one bit to be honest. Manufacturers who do the best job should be rewarded and it'll make a change.

Might alao give McLaren a chance to get on the podium again before Honda come in and mess it all up with a VTEC no doubt.

I have no words.

VTEC just kicked in, yo:


#38 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:44

In the paddock it is said behind closed doors that the Silver Arrow engine should make 100 hp more than the aggregate of Renault and Ferrari


Slow news period, I know, AMuS run a story about their compatriots being 100 HP ahead... What? 100 horse powers difference in F1 engine? Come on... Tobi usually runs credible stories, but 100 HP is too much. Advantage of some sort - perhaps.

#39 molpid

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:13

Slow news period, I know, AMuS run a story about their compatriots being 100 HP ahead... What? 100 horse powers difference in F1 engine? Come on... Tobi usually runs credible stories, but 100 HP is too much. Advantage of some sort - perhaps.


Sounds unbelievable to have such advantage in modern F1, but Rosberg and Hamilton seem to be very optimistic for 2014 these days. IMHO it's obvious that Merc will have a power advantage next year [lobbying for wider rear tyres], but the raw HP numbers are not the only key for succsess, fuel consumption [and reliability] will play an important part aswell.

Edited by molpid, 15 August 2013 - 07:14.


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#40 Kobasmashi

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:45

I'm actually really looking forward to the new engines. We've had the frozen V8s for too long and the lack of development was kinda taking away one of the key elements of formula 1. A little power (and reliability) variation would be welcomed with open arms by me.

#41 undersquare

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:56

I'm actually really looking forward to the new engines. We've had the frozen V8s for too long and the lack of development was kinda taking away one of the key elements of formula 1. A little power (and reliability) variation would be welcomed with open arms by me.

Yeah me too. It'll be fascinating that they can burn fuel at 100l/hr but only have 100l in the tank! :eek:

I just hope the octogenarian-run FOM give us data about it so we can follow wtf is going on. The scope for Push-to-Pass is mind-boggling.

#42 rasul

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:06

Sounds unbelievable to have such advantage in modern F1, but Rosberg and Hamilton seem to be very optimistic for 2014 these days. IMHO it's obvious that Merc will have a power advantage next year [lobbying for wider rear tyres], but the raw HP numbers are not the only key for succsess, fuel consumption [and reliability] will play an important part aswell.

It will be interesting if Merc ends up being more powerful, Renault - far more fuel-efficient, and Ferrari - more reliable.

#43 pUs

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:09

If you change the tyre width , you have to rebuild your car because of the car will be higher (the rake).


Great analysis :up: :D

#44 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:18

In related news an Italian publication says the Ferrari will be the best while a French journo has gone on record as saying the Renault will be best...


bs

#45 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:19

It will be interesting if Merc ends up being more powerful, Renault - far more fuel-efficient, and Ferrari - more reliable.


that doesn't work

#46 Jackmancer

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:20

how the f would AMuS know this? -.-

#47 mlsnoopy

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:30

how the f would AMuS know this? -.-


They are rumors. But I think that its mostly based on the tyres. Mercedes feels that they would need wider tyres, where as renault and Ferrari are against it. That suggest a HP advantage. How much is a gues.

#48 prty

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:35

If all the rumors are correct, next season will be a podium fight between Mercedes engined cars only. And now the FIA is listening to Mercedes demanding wider tyres to accommodate their stronger engine.

So exciting...

How is a team working hard to get the best aero, worse than a few teams having a superior engine through cash? The latter is even worse because the other teams can't do anything without an equal/stronger engine.

At the moment people can compete against another team through aero updates. People keep saying how RBR is dominant in that area but last year the McLaren was better at it (fastest car), this year the Ferrari was faster (until Monaco), Lotus was faster a few times and equal a lot of times, Mercedes is definitely faster over a lap and sometimes in the race too. So teams can still compete. But you can't against a superior engine with the new regulations coming next season (that do cut advancements in other areas that would gain you speed).

Every time we have a competitive field, they change things to screw it up. 2010 season was the most competitive one of the last decades and look at how all those changes effected everything negatively. If it wasn't for my long-time support of F1 and it being a part of my life, I would drop it.


Oh but that's exactly what's happening right now too, with the Renault engine being the best for the current regulations. So I don't think you should play that card ;)

#49 prty

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:40

Regarding the topic, taking things like the secret test non penalty and this, seems that maybe now, after Red Bull, it's Mercedes winning turn to keep the F1 business going.

#50 study

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:42

They are rumors. But I think that its mostly based on the tyres. Mercedes feels that they would need wider tyres, where as renault and Ferrari are against it. That suggest a HP advantage. How much is a gues.


Plus, FIA have requested peformance figures

Renault and Ferrari, however, were of the opinion that wider tires are not required to obtain the higher load under control. Then the two Mercedes competitors were asked to disclose their performance compared to Pirelli. After analysis of the predicted values, and after consultation with the tire specialist, the FIA ​​would appear to share the concerns of Mercedes.

Edited by study, 15 August 2013 - 08:43.