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Autosport Racing Car of The Year (2007 & 2008)


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#1 sheepgobba

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:26

I was browsing through the autosport awards and noticed that the 2007 and 2008 racing car of the year awards awarded to the MP4-22 and MP4-23. I do agree with that fact that both cars were good in their respective years of competition but I don't believe it was better than the F2007 and F2008 it competed against. Personally I always thought the F2007 and F2008 were better cars than the McLaren in both the seasons, as in both seasons the Ferraris were faster. In regards to the 2008, the F2008 was the better car but the McLaren was more reliable (Valencia, Hungry Engine failures from the top of my head). But I still believe the Ferrari's should been awarded for those two seasons.

Additionally, I also think that Alonso and Hamilton's brilliance in extracting the maximum of the car made it seem better than it was compared to the Ferraris.

Edited by sheepgobba, 17 August 2013 - 09:27.


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#2 F1ultimate

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:34

As far as top runner fights go, 2007 and 2008 had title contenders with very comparable machinery. The performance between the cars were marginal though the Ferrari did enjoy an advantage in hot conditions. Overall, the drivers made up for the small differences.

#3 CrashPad

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:47

In 2007 the Ferrari and McLaren were pretty much as fast as each other, but I feel the Mclaren was more reliable....but maybe that's just me.

#4 OO7

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:21

I was browsing through the autosport awards and noticed that the 2007 and 2008 racing car of the year awards awarded to the MP4-22 and MP4-23. I do agree with that fact that both cars were good in their respective years of competition but I don't believe it was better than the F2007 and F2008 it competed against. Personally I always thought the F2007 and F2008 were better cars than the McLaren in both the seasons, as in both seasons the Ferraris were faster. In regards to the 2008, the F2008 was the better car but the McLaren was more reliable (Valencia, Hungry Engine failures from the top of my head). But I still believe the Ferrari's should been awarded for those two seasons.

Additionally, I also think that Alonso and Hamilton's brilliance in extracting the maximum of the car made it seem better than it was compared to the Ferraris.

I think Frank Williams agrees with you.

#5 muramasa

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:28

. But I still believe the Ferrari's should been awarded for those two seasons.

yea but if Ferrari awarded for 07&08, there would be people insisting it shudve been Mclaren.
I never take these sorts of awards too seriously in the first place.
If it had been awarded for BMW, it certainly is strange, but either Ferrari or Mclaren in this case is such trivial matter.


#6 SpamJet

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:07

The 07 and 08 macs were made from stolen ferrari docs, no way they could be the best cars.

#7 1Devil1

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:13

I was browsing through the autosport awards and noticed that the 2007 and 2008 racing car of the year awards awarded to the MP4-22 and MP4-23. I do agree with that fact that both cars were good in their respective years of competition but I don't believe it was better than the F2007 and F2008 it competed against. Personally I always thought the F2007 and F2008 were better cars than the McLaren in both the seasons, as in both seasons the Ferraris were faster. In regards to the 2008, the F2008 was the better car but the McLaren was more reliable (Valencia, Hungry Engine failures from the top of my head). But I still believe the Ferrari's should been awarded for those two seasons.

Additionally, I also think that Alonso and Hamilton's brilliance in extracting the maximum of the car made it seem better than it was compared to the Ferraris.


I believe McLaren had the fastest car in both years and Kimi and Massa extracted the maximum out of the car :eek:

#8 Tommay

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 12:47

I was always of the believe that Ferrari was the faster for both years. What people seem to forget is that Kimi under performed for the first half of the season and had some quite terrible races yet still won th championship (admittedly with the 'blunders' from McLaren at the end)

I also do not believe that Massa was in the same class as Hamilton, even in 2008. For him to finish close (even with the engine blow up and fuel rig incident)

#9 JaredS

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 13:11

I was always of the believe that Ferrari was the faster for both years. What people seem to forget is that Kimi under performed for the first half of the season and had some quite terrible races yet still won th championship (admittedly with the 'blunders' from McLaren at the end)

I also do not believe that Massa was in the same class as Hamilton, even in 2008. For him to finish close (even with the engine blow up and fuel rig incident)


Not to mention the help that Massa got from the FIA in Spa 2008.

#10 2ms

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 13:12

Alonso himself stated McL had the better car 2007. They did have the damn blueprints for the Ferrari, after all.

#11 ebc

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 13:30

I have always thought that the McLaren was the best car both years. Kimi in his pomp and now is every bit as good as Alonso and he beat him and Hamilton fair and square in a straight fight in 2007.

Alonso and Hamilton get too much credit, they are not supermen just great racing drivers like Raikkonen and Vettel.

#12 SpaMaster

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 13:31

Does it bother that much? First of all, these awards are not given just with the thought of MP4-22 being better than F2007 and such. A more holistic rating goes through it. Secondly they were somewhat comparable cars, not the Massa=Raikkonen, but Massa is getting obliterated by Alonso, that means Hamilton and Alonso would have extracted infinite times better performance from the MP4s.

Edited by SpaMaster, 17 August 2013 - 13:32.


#13 1Devil1

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 13:37

Not to mention the help that Massa got from the FIA in Spa 2008.


Who cares in that context?. Hamilton got 'help' from massive Ferrari mistakes. Every thread about 2008 must end in excuses why Lewis didn't win the title in dominant fashion.

#14 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 13:43

The MP4-22 was really only stronger when Ferrari's windtunnel malfunctioned. This was around Monaco-Canada-US when McLaren dominated those races. After they came back to Europe, Ferrari had fixed their wind tunnel and had some remarkable races. (for example Spa, Silverstone, Interlagos). Monza was the only race after that where the McLaren was clearly quicker.

#15 Kingshark

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 19:24

McLaren vs Ferrari in 2007

Australia - Ferrari
Malaysia - equal (don't let the final result fool you, without his amateur driving Massa could have certainly challenged Alonso)
Bahrain - Ferrari
Spain - Ferrari
Monaco - McLaren by a mile.
Canada - McLaren
America - McLaren
France - Ferrari by a mile.
Britain - Ferrari
Germany - draw (Ferrari in the dry, McLaren in the wet)
Hungary - McLaren
Turkey - Ferrari
Italy - McLaren by a mile.
Belgium - Ferrari by a mile.
Japan - McLaren (full wet)
China - draw (McLaren in the wet, Ferrari in the dry)
Brazil - Ferrari by a mile.

That's 8 races where Ferrari were quicker, including 3 dominant ones. There are only 6 races where McLaren were convincingly quicker, including 2 dominant ones.

The speed advantage was with Ferrari in 2007, even if we assume that Raikkonen and Massa are in the same league as Alonso and Hamilton (many people would question this). Although I felt that McLaren was slightly more reliable.

#16 Kingshark

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 19:25

The MP4-22 was really only stronger when Ferrari's windtunnel malfunctioned. This was around Monaco-Canada-US when McLaren dominated those races. After they came back to Europe, Ferrari had fixed their wind tunnel and had some remarkable races. (for example Spa, Silverstone, Interlagos). Monza was the only race after that where the McLaren was clearly quicker.

Spot on, pretty much.

#17 hotstickyslick

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 19:33

The Ferrari F2007 was the quickest car in 2007, but unreliability and drivers occasionally underperforming masked this. F2008 had the speed of the F2007 and had improved reliability, but still not as reliable as the McLaren. McLaren were lucky that there were wet races, or the gap in pure speed would've been a lot more obvious.

Edited by hotstickyslick, 17 August 2013 - 19:45.


#18 scheivlak

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 19:57

McLaren vs Ferrari in 2007

Australia - Ferrari
Malaysia - equal (don't let the final result fool you, without his amateur driving Massa could have certainly challenged Alonso)
Bahrain - Ferrari
Spain - Ferrari
Monaco - McLaren by a mile.
Canada - McLaren
America - McLaren
France - Ferrari by a mile.
Britain - Ferrari
Germany - draw (Ferrari in the dry, McLaren in the wet)
Hungary - McLaren
Turkey - Ferrari
Italy - McLaren by a mile.
Belgium - Ferrari by a mile.
Japan - McLaren (full wet)
China - draw (McLaren in the wet, Ferrari in the dry)
Brazil - Ferrari by a mile.

I think that's about right, one might add that in Hungary McLaren 's advantage was quite big as well (with the Q brawl for pole as a result!) and that Ferrari's advantage in Turkey was at least as obvious.

Overall one might say that there wasn't a superior car seasonwise, it's just that Ferrari tended to be superior quite often on the more aero-depending circuits (fast corners) and McLaren to be superior on the circuits - or in condtions - where mechanical grip is more important.


#19 olliek88

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 20:06

At Monaco 2007 the Mclaren was ridiculously dominant, both drivers lapped the whole field bar Massa in P3 and he was over a minute down the road.

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#20 Kingshark

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 21:22

I think that's about right, one might add that in Hungary McLaren 's advantage was quite big as well (with the Q brawl for pole as a result!) and that Ferrari's advantage in Turkey was at least as obvious.

I don't think the gap between McLaren and Ferrari in the Hungarian GP on race day was that big, because Raikkonen finished only 0.7 seconds behind Hamilton at the end of the race, and even got fastest lap. In Turkey, again Ferrari were better, but Lewis was challenging Kimi for 2nd place up and until his puncture, so again not that dominant.

Overall one might say that there wasn't a superior car seasonwise, it's just that Ferrari tended to be superior quite often on the more aero-depending circuits (fast corners) and McLaren to be superior on the circuits - or in condtions - where mechanical grip is more important.

Sounds about right.

#21 Kingshark

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 21:22

At Monaco 2007 the Mclaren was ridiculously dominant, both drivers lapped the whole field bar Massa in P3 and he was over a minute down the road.

McLaren in Monaco were no more dominant than Ferrari were in, say, Brazil.

#22 helioseism

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 21:28

I am not surprised that a British magazine thought that a British car was the best.

#23 hotstickyslick

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 21:34

McLaren in Monaco were no more dominant than Ferrari were in, say, Brazil.

Yep. The F2007 had incredible aero efficiency, not to mention how it could keep its tyres from overheating.

#24 Rob

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 21:58

I am not surprised that a British magazine thought that a British car was the best.

The awards are voted on by the readers of the magazine.

#25 Skinnyguy

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 22:01

I would have given the 2008 one to the Ferrari car, if it´s JUST the car we talk about (no team performance included).

#26 Kingshark

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 23:14

I am not surprised that a British magazine thought that a British car was the best.

But would that not under-mine the performance of their British driver (Hamilton). Does Lewis' 2008 championship not look better if we assume that Ferrari had the best car, while it looks rather mediocre when you assume that McLaren had the best car?

#27 SanDiegoGo

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:07

Alonso himself stated McL had the better car 2007. They did have the damn blueprints for the Ferrari, after all.


And Ferrari have had the blue print of every teams cars since Max become their patron. Ferrari wrote the rules and Max just signed them.


#28 helioseism

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:35

The awards are voted on by the readers of the magazine.


Who are primarily British.

Edited by helioseism, 18 August 2013 - 03:36.


#29 Juggles

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:50

The awards are voted on by the readers of the magazine.


When Autosport readers voted Button as the best British driver of 2012 I consigned the majority of them to the 'idiot' drawer.

Despite the driver/team sectarianism and special interests on this forum I would still trust a poll answer on any F1 question here over Autosport magazine.

#30 techspeed

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 11:51

So we have a debate on which car is actually better and whether the awards result is right, based on the 07 and 08 winners being McLarens. Which car is actually better is totally irrelevant and the winner is decided entirely on how many votes each car gets from the readers. It's a popularity contest, if you think different then you know your opinion is not the popular one. Any car or driver could be totally dominant, but if they don't have the fan base to vote for them, they will never win.

And it's not just voted on by idiot fanboys either, otherwise McNish and Franchitti would never have won British driver awards.

#31 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 15:30

So we have a debate on which car is actually better and whether the awards result is right, based on the 07 and 08 winners being McLarens. Which car is actually better is totally irrelevant and the winner is decided entirely on how many votes each car gets from the readers. It's a popularity contest, if you think different then you know your opinion is not the popular one. Any car or driver could be totally dominant, but if they don't have the fan base to vote for them, they will never win.

And it's not just voted on by idiot fanboys either, otherwise McNish and Franchitti would never have won British driver awards.


Yes, a poll will always be a poll. It will be better the bigger the sample is and the more knowledgeable the people taking part are. I don´t think these awards proof nothing.

After all a poll is a sum of opinions, and mine is that the 2007 McLaren deserved that award but the 2008 car didn´t (if we just talk about cars and don´t factor in team operations). It was tight both years but I think the small speed advantage of Ferrari in 2007 didn´t make up for the extra unreliability, while in 2008 it should have been enough without a handful of team blunders.

#32 Trust

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 16:04

2007 Ferrari car a little faster than McLaren, but McLaren's reliabillity made up more than enough for a little lack of speed. On the other hand, F2008 was completely dominat compared to McLaren but drivers didn't utilise that.

So 2007 should go to McLaren by a split of a hair, and 2008 to Ferrari easily.

#33 Blackmore

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 17:00

In short:

- Hamilton and Alonso fans will say the Ferrari was better because of obvious reasons (i.e., otherwise Kimi beat them in the lesser car, Hamilton in the better car struggled to beat Massa).

- Kimi fans will say the McLaren was the better car for obvious reasons (i.e., Kimi beat them in the lesser car).

- People who have no alliance will say the McLaren was the car to have in 2007 and 2008, because it was.

Edited by Blackmore, 18 August 2013 - 17:02.


#34 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 17:40

Hey don´t make sweeping statements like that! I am a Räikkönen fan and I´m well aware in 2008 he threw away a good chance with, in my opinion, the car to have.

#35 Kingshark

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 19:14

- People who have no alliance will say the McLaren was the car to have in 2007 and 2008, because it was.

That's bs.

In 2007 Ferrari had the best car in the first four races, then McLaren was only seriously faster when Ferrai had windtunnel problems (Monaco, USA, Canada). Once Ferrari got their act together they were dominating McLaren throughout the majority of the rest of the season apart from Monza.

Edited by Kingshark, 18 August 2013 - 19:19.


#36 scheivlak

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 19:28

- People who have no alliance will say the McLaren was the car to have in 2007 and 2008, because it was.

Bullshit.

I think it's telling that you don't include the possibility of someone saying that dominance may have varied from track to track.

#37 ebc

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 19:45

Alonso said the Mclaren was the best car and it seemed that way to me.

#38 Kingshark

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 19:56

Alonso said the Mclaren was the best car and it seemed that way to me.

Alonso did not drive the Ferrari, therefore his opinion was nothing but guesswork.

Anyone who blindly looks at the standings and sees "McLaren 218, Ferrari 204" would guess that McLaren had the best car that year. But anyone who actually watched the 2007 F1 season carefully, will tell you a different answer.

Edited by Kingshark, 18 August 2013 - 19:58.


#39 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 19:57

That's bs.

In 2007 Ferrari had the best car in the first four races, then McLaren was only seriously faster when Ferrai had windtunnel problems (Monaco, USA, Canada). Once Ferrari got their act together they were dominating McLaren throughout the majority of the rest of the season apart from Monza.


You made quite a decent analysis up there, not that I agree with every single weekend, but it´s solid and fair. Don´t go down the usual path -south- now.

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#40 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 20:06

But anyone who actually watched the 2007 F1 season carefully, will tell you a different answer.


http://forums.autosp...p...e=show&st=0

:wave:



#41 JohnPackham

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 20:37

I may be wrong but isn't the Autosport award voted by the readership of Autosport? No more, no less, it's the opinion of the readers who vote.

#42 Kingshark

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 21:03

http://forums.autosp...p...e=show&st=0

:wave:

Old poll, not nessecary a reflection upon the truth. I showed an old thread back in January 2004 where Autosport members voted for the best car of 2003, and Williams won ahead of Ferrari. You wouldn't agree with that, would you, so why should that old topic be any different?

#43 ebc

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 21:07

Alonso did not drive the Ferrari, therefore his opinion was nothing but guesswork.

Anyone who blindly looks at the standings and sees "McLaren 218, Ferrari 204" would guess that McLaren had the best car that year. But anyone who actually watched the 2007 F1 season carefully, will tell you a different answer.


I watched it and I say the Mclaren was faster and Alonso was competing in the season and I'm sure he watched it too and he said it was faster as well.

#44 scheivlak

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 21:35

http://forums.autosp...p...e=show&st=0

:wave:


Mind you, that poll was held during the season - after the Japanese GP when quite a few people thought wrapping up the WDC would be a formality.

Interesting to see scarbs (!) posting in that thread (#76) :

"I dont think you can seperate them...

McLaren has been consitent and reliable, plus has gone best at tracks with no fast turns. Ferrari has been faster at the real challenging tracks, but dropped off at tracks with fussier slow corners, not to mention rather poorer reliability.

If your asking for the fastest, I'd say Ferrari but it by no means a clear cut case...

Ferrari have won more races and pole positions (Ferrari 9 to McLarens 8 in both cases), plus 7 more fastest laps. But Mac lead 12 more laps (Ferrari 512 to Mac 524).

McLaren won more 14 more points (F-204 Vs Mac-218), with their non points finishes largely the result of tyres and qualifying probems around Hungary fiasco and Lewis German crash\suspension failure .

Where as Ferrari lost points with 3 mechanical retirements and a pitlane infringement, plus grid positions were lost with a fuel\time miscalculation, a crash and a hydraulic problem.

Scarbs"


#45 Kingshark

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 23:20

I watched it and I say the Mclaren was faster and Alonso was competing in the season and I'm sure he watched it too and he said it was faster as well.

You keep bringing up Alonso's quote in an old interview where he believed that McLaren had the fastest car. Since when is Alonso's opinion end all be all? Did Alonso not say that the F2012 was on par with Force India? Your argument is invalid.

If you do think that McLaren was faster than Ferrari in 2007, why don't you bring up some good reasoning, rather than repeating the same sentence for the third time?

#46 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:08

Alonso tends to downplay his cars. if he says it was the best then well....