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Has anyone won a TT or MGP at their first attempt?


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#1 knickerbrook

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 17:00

This question has crossed my mind.
I expect it might have been achieved in the very early days of the TT, but I wonder if anyone has done it, say, from the sixties onwards?

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#2 Paul Collins

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 17:16

Didn't Dieter Braun win a TT on his one and only appearance? i'd have to check the stats to confirm.

MGP Phil McCallen won the Lightweight after winning the Newcomers a few days earlier, and i'm sure there have been a couple of others, leave it with me and i'll check as I've got a bit of spare time now that they've just scrapped tonight's practice due to pants weather and a lack of marshal's

Edit - And I think Bob Mac won the MGP at first attempt

Edited by Paul Collins, 17 August 2013 - 17:19.


#3 Tonka

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 17:26

This question has crossed my mind.
I expect it might have been achieved in the very early days of the TT, but I wonder if anyone has done it, say, from the sixties onwards?



I've no idea what makes a 'newcomer' at the IOM, but Robert Dunlop won the 1983 Newcomers 350cc Manx Grand Prix at his first attempt.



#4 Tonka

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 17:29

Didn't Dieter Braun win a TT on his one and only appearance? i'd have to check the stats to confirm.


Dieter raced at the IOM a couple of times before his win

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Dieter_Braun



#5 Paul Collins

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 17:32

Here's a couple more MGP debut winners Martin Sharpe (1999 Newcomers Lightweight and Ultra-Lightweight MGP), Olie Linsdell (2007 Newcomers Lightweight & Ultra-Lightweight MGP).

Just checked and Braun indeed won the 125 race on his TT debut in 1970, incredibly the first 3 in that race were all newcomers with Jansson 2nd and Bartusch (MZ) 3rd.

From the iomtt.com database

A TT debutant, West German Dieter Braun, won the 125cc race on an ex-works Suzuki after 1969 winner, Dave Simmonds, went out on the second lap when his Kawasaki seized while he was leading. Borje Jansson (Maico) in second place and Bartusch (MZ) in third were also riding in their first TT meeting.

Edited by Paul Collins, 17 August 2013 - 17:34.


#6 knickerbrook

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 17:41

With due respect to McCallen and the others, I would count their success in the newcomers races beforehand, albeit in the same week, as not strictly winning at their first attempt (as meritorious as those achievements were!). I was thinking more along the lines of an out-and-out first attempt. So any others besides Braun I wonder?

#7 Paul Collins

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 17:43

The newcomers is open only to riders who have not competed on the mountain course before, so is always won by a first timer, but those above have managed to win a traditional MGP the same year as they were newcomers which is no mean feat.

I'm not sure if Bob Mac had done a Clubmans TT before he did the MGP though as I think the clubman's was still running in those days, in which case he may not have been a circuit debutant

#8 Paul Collins

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 17:45

Possibly just Bob Mac then Knickerbrook, i'll see what I can find in the stats :)

Edit, just found Bob shown as 2nd in the 1952 Clubman's TT Junior so it looks like he made his mountain course debut a couple of months before his win in the MGP.

Edited by Paul Collins, 17 August 2013 - 17:57.


#9 Russell Burrows

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 17:51

Lutonboy won the '61 Junior at his first attempt - a Manx winner before of course. I'm pretty certain Ron Langston wasn't far behind Readie - and may have lead for some of the race - in the '60 Junior Manx, his first attempt. The database has reminded me that Welsh boy Wayne Dinham almost got there. Whoops, I see Readie didn't win the Junior Manx at all, thought for some reason that he did the double.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 18 August 2013 - 08:18.


#10 knickerbrook

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 18:10

With due respect to McCallen and the others, I would count their success in the newcomers races beforehand, albeit in the same week, as not strictly winning at their first attempt (as meritorious as those achievements were!). I was thinking more along the lines of an out-and-out first attempt. So any others besides Braun I wonder?

OK, to re-phrase the question then - did anyone win at their first attempt before the introduction of the newcomers race? In other words, winning a MGP (or TT) "proper", without the experience of a previous race. Not to under-estimate the fine achievement of winning a newcomers and proper-MGP "double" in the same week of course, as those you mentioned. (When was the MGP Newcomers race introduced?).
Re. Dieter Braun, the TT Database has him down as competing in three races in his debut year and retiring in two of them. Therefore, if his success in the 125 race came after the two races he retired in, then I would discount that as his first attempt for the purposes of my question.

Don't want to nit-pick - just wondering!

#11 Russell Burrows

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 18:18

Did you know Dinham, Barry? Some feat getting a second. Did he do some serious course learning beforehand, I wonder ?

#12 Paul Collins

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 18:21

OK, to re-phrase the question then - did anyone win at their first attempt before the introduction of the newcomers race? In other words, winning a MGP (or TT) "proper", without the experience of a previous race. Not to under-estimate the fine achievement of winning a newcomers and proper-MGP "double" in the same week of course, as those you mentioned. (When was the MGP Newcomers race introduced?).
Re. Dieter Braun, the TT Database has him down as competing in three races in his debut year and retiring in two of them. Therefore, if his success in the 125 race came after the two races he retired in, then I would discount that as his first attempt for the purposes of my question.

Don't want to nit-pick - just wondering!


Its an interesting one re Braun, I see your point, it depends which day the 125 race was held on, i'll have to investigate further :)

I reckon the newcomers were given their own race around 1980, prior to that it was just an award for the first newcomer home in the main MGP classes

#13 Paul Collins

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 18:37

I think we need someone to dig out a programme from the 1970 TT and check the event format to solve the Braun question Barry, unless someone can tell us from memory if the 125 race came before or after the 250 & 350 races?

I've found the history on the MGP newcomers though and it appears they were first given their own race in 1978.

#14 knickerbrook

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 18:46

Did you know Dinham, Barry? Some feat getting a second. Did he do some serious course learning beforehand, I wonder ?

Coincidence you picked up on that Russ - that's what prompted me to pose the question!
I was on chatting terms with Wayne, both being welsh riders at the same meetings sometimes. My Mate Phil Landeg knew him a little more and related a story on this very forum a few years back, about Wayne's generous offer of lending Phil his Commando production racer when Phil's G50 broke down at (I think) Snetterton. Wayne said "you can borrow my Commando if you like, I'll go and get it". Phil thought "he's a long time getting that Commando". Turned out that Dinham had only gone all the way back to Newport in the van to fetch it :lol: ! It must ahve been a two-day meeting. (Phil of course thought the bike was at the circuit!). So he was a bloody good egg as well as a fine rider. He started his racing on the Norvil Commando before switching to the Yamaha and was quick on that too, often giving Dave Potter a run for his money (who was also racing a similar Commando at the time - pre Gus Khun).
Here is Phil on his G50 (Ex-Cowles Metisse - that Roger Sutcliffe won the Senior MGP on).
Posted Image



#15 Russell Burrows

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 19:40

Coincidence you picked up on that Russ - that's what prompted me to pose the question!
I was on chatting terms with Wayne, both being welsh riders at the same meetings sometimes. My Mate Phil Landeg knew him a little more and related a story on this very forum a few years back, about Wayne's generous offer of lending Phil his Commando production racer when Phil's G50 broke down at (I think) Snetterton. Wayne said "you can borrow my Commando if you like, I'll go and get it". Phil thought "he's a long time getting that Commando". Turned out that Dinham had only gone all the way back to Newport in the van to fetch it :lol: ! It must ahve been a two-day meeting. (Phil of course thought the bike was at the circuit!). So he was a bloody good egg as well as a fine rider. He started his racing on the Norvil Commando before switching to the Yamaha and was quick on that too, often giving Dave Potter a run for his money (who was also racing a similar Commando at the time - pre Gus Khun).
Here is Phil on his G50 (Ex-Cowles Metisse - that Roger Sutcliffe won the Senior MGP on).
Posted Image

Lovely story, Barry. I think I recall him on the Commando at Bemsee meetings and the like. I wonder what he's up to nowadays?
Good pic too.

#16 picblanc

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 20:14

He was 'friend' of mine on the dreaded Facebook, seem to recall he was doing some kind of charity thing in or for people in Africa, though I might have dreamt that? :|

#17 Paul Collins

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 20:34

I think he lives over here on the rock nowadays so those of you who are coming over keep a look out for him at Jurby next weekend, he might just be having a mooch around if he's still interested in the bikes.

#18 Paul Collins

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 20:41

According to this Wayne will be around during the fortnight :)

MGP 90th Anniversary

#19 Robin127

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:15

Lovely story, Barry. I think I recall him on the Commando at Bemsee meetings and the like. I wonder what he's up to nowadays?
Good pic too.


I saw him fall off the Commando and break his leg at the bottom of Paddock at a Bemsee meeting in 1971. His helmet came off in the crash too, it was pretty frightening. I remember it quite well because I returned to Brands the following day for the Race of the South and there was a Welsh lad there who was around the same age as me (15) and we got chatting. He had travelled up with Dinham for the Bemsee meeting and had been stranded at Brands, luckily someone local had given him a bed for the night and his parents were on their way to collect him.
.

Edited by Robin127, 18 August 2013 - 03:15.


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#20 Russell Burrows

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 13:46

I think we need someone to dig out a programme from the 1970 TT and check the event format to solve the Braun question Barry, unless someone can tell us from memory if the 125 race came before or after the 250 & 350 races?

I've found the history on the MGP newcomers though and it appears they were first given their own race in 1978.


Around that period the ACU used to like to lubricate the circuit by kicking off with the outfit race, followed by the 250's on the Monday pm. I think I'm right in recalling that for a long time the 125's went on the Wednesday before the Junior. Anyway, by '69 the Proddy race had taken this slot and the 125 race was put back to Friday morning. Presumably it was the same in 1970.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 18 August 2013 - 13:54.


#21 greg1953

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 16:17

Was Phil Haslams MGP win ( 73 or 74 I think ) a first time win ?
Greg

#22 Russell Burrows

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 16:33

Was Phil Haslams MGP win ( 73 or 74 I think ) a first time win ?
Greg

'73 but he was there in the previous year.

#23 greg1953

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:11

'73 but he was there in the previous year.

Thanks for that...I remember Mick Burns had sorted Phils TZ350 and Phil stating it was a "jet"
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#24 tdijam

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:37

The late Norman Brown won the 1981 350 MGP Necomers race , and then followed that by winning the Senior TT the next year on a MK7 Suzuki RG500

John

#25 exclubracer

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 18:45

Beat me to it John. I think Norman's Manx 350 record stands to this day.

 

I was a big fan of Norman :cry:



#26 fil2.8

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 20:21

Beat me to it John. I think Norman's Manx 350 record stands to this day.

 

I was a big fan of Norman :cry:

 

and me , had just got to know him  :cry:  :cry:



#27 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 14:36

Pretty sure Tim Leech won the 1992 newcomer's 750 race