45 replies to this topic

[turssi]

Well, for ages now people have spoken about lead pilots, secondary pilots, pay drivers and journeymen in Formula1 racing, but thinking about different pilot profiles the other day I made a connection in my head to a Japanese term describing people who work for the sake of work, or when in comes to F1 pilots, drive for the sake of driving, independent of the results. The term of course is that of a 'Salaryman'.

The difference between a Salaryman and a Journeyman is that these guys feel no urge, be it internal or external, to improve. They just fill a seat and independent of the performance everybody is happy. Not a very sporty thing!

The most recent example of this was Mark Webber at Red Bull. In my eyes he transformed into a a Salaryman during 2011. With Massa this happened during 2010. Kovalainen was turning into one, but McLaren let him go when it happened. Other example from McLaren would be Montoya, but he left when it happened. Earlier Salaryman prototypes could be Coulthard or Barrichello.

Do we really have office workers among the pilots these days, or am I just imagining?

For a funny wikipedia-quote, here is a list of typical Salarymen activities:

-Lifestyle revolves entirely around work at the office.
-Works over-time on a daily basis.
-Diligent but unoriginal.
-Thoroughly obedient to orders from the higher levels of the company.
-Feels a strong emotional bond with co-workers.
-Drinking, golf, and mahjong are the three main social activities that provide stimulation outside of work.
-Lack of initiative and competitiveness.
-Wears a suit, necktie, and dress shoes to work every day without fail.
-Partakes in late night karaoke and binge drinking.

How many of the activities above describe our favorite Salaryman driver?

[Amphicar]

For a funny wikipedia-quote, here is a list of typical Salarymen activities:

-Lifestyle revolves entirely around work at the office.
-Works over-time on a daily basis.
-Diligent but unoriginal.
-Thoroughly obedient to orders from the higher levels of the company.
-Feels a strong emotional bond with co-workers.
-Drinking, golf, and mahjong are the three main social activities that provide stimulation outside of work.
-Lack of initiative and competitiveness.
-Wears a suit, necktie, and dress shoes to work every day without fail.
-Partakes in late night karaoke and binge drinking.

How many of the activities above describe our favorite Salaryman driver?

Seriously? none of them - though the last suggestion might just be Kimi (not that he could be remotely described as a salaryman - particularly driving for a team that allegedly doesn't even pay his salary all that regularly)

[SpaMaster]

Ha haa, very funny.. Totally agree about Webber, Massa, Barrichello and Coulthard. Sometimes you do wonder 'what are they doing it for!'..

Until 2009 happened, Button also looked like that. Fisichella as well?

Edited by SpaMaster, 17 August 2013 - 19:30.

[turssi]

Seriously? none of them - though the last suggestion might just be Kimi (not that he could be remotely described as a salaryman - particularly driving for a team that allegedly doesn't even pay his salary all that regularly)

I agree,
Kimi gets 1/9 Salaryman points (Binge drinking karaoke nights).

Now let's look at some of the names in the OP:
Webber 0/9 points
Massa (Lifestyle, Unoriginal, Obedient, Emotional Bond, Lack of competitiveness) 5/9 points
Kovalainen (Lifestyle, Unoriginal, Obedient, Golf, Lack of competitiveness) 5/9 points
...

Not sure if there is a direct connection, but for sure there is something wrong in the sport if there are pilots in top teams not driving for the win!

Edited by turssi, 17 August 2013 - 21:12.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

I thought pilots did planes, not cars.........

[pingu666]

truli

[HopkinsonF1]

Can't find the quote, but Sutil said earlier this year that since his comeback, he's seen driving as a job - no more, no less. He turns up, does the best job he can, collects his pay and goes home.

[turssi]

Can't find the quote, but Sutil said earlier this year that since his comeback, he's seen driving as a job - no more, no less. He turns up, does the best job he can, collects his pay and goes home.

If he is doing his best, going for the best result and held accountable for the result, then he is still racing!

[BlackCat]

heidfeld was one of those placeholders with no ambition.

[turssi]

heidfeld was one of those placeholders with no ambition.

He was driving pretty well in 2006, 2007 and 2008 I always thought.

[Atreiu]

I thought pilots did planes, not cars.........

Pilots race cars, drivers drive them.

Webber does not fit, he could have stayed around at many smaller teams cashing in. I dont like him, but he gets my full respect for not lingering around after odd points and big bucks.

[sesku]

there is not such thing as "salarymen" F1 driver, they worked hard to get to where they are now.Be it getting a good result in junior series or getting a very good sponsorship deal. If they want a good salary/money, they can be businessman or CEO or president etc.

[pacificquay]

This is one of the reasons why I hate this forum sometimes.

The vast majority of drivers to race in Grands Prix have never got anywhere near the podium - or even the points in many cases.

Yet on here we have people who are multiple winners being slagged off and people questioning "what they do it for".

I don't think many realise what an achievement it is to win even one Grand Prix.

[DutchQuicksilver]

He was driving pretty well in 2006, 2007 and 2008 I always thought.

True, those were his best seasons. So wouldn't call him a salaryman

[mardmarium]

This is one of the reasons why I hate this forum sometimes.

The vast majority of drivers to race in Grands Prix have never got anywhere near the podium - or even the points in many cases.

Yet on here we have people who are multiple winners being slagged off and people questioning "what they do it for".

I don't think many realise what an achievement it is to win even one Grand Prix.

I don´t hate this forum, apart from that, I completely agree with you.

I couldn´t criticize any of the top drivers, not even if I wanted to. I can´t avoid thinking that they are extremely talented, and of course they have something that most people in this world don´t have, including other F1 drivers. Just talking about F1, of course many people around this world can do a lot of things as well as F1 drivers can do their job.

[turssi]

I don´t hate this forum, apart from that, I completely agree with you.

I couldn´t criticize any of the top drivers, not even if I wanted to. I can´t avoid thinking that they are extremely talented, and of course they have something that most people in this world don´t have, including other F1 drivers. Just talking about F1, of course many people around this world can do a lot of things as well as F1 drivers can do their job.

Nowhere in my post I said that these are not top pilots in top teams. They all worked super hard above the level of competition to arrive where they did. In my post I state that at some point they stopped going for the win for whatever reasons and became pilots that in the eyes of some fans seem to be driving on autopilot rather that racing for the top podium place.

[SpartanChas]

-Lifestyle revolves entirely around work at the office.
-Works over-time on a daily basis.
-Diligent but unoriginal.
-Thoroughly obedient to orders from the higher levels of the company.
-Feels a strong emotional bond with co-workers.
-Drinking, golf, and mahjong are the three main social activities that provide stimulation outside of work.
-Lack of initiative and competitiveness.
-Wears a suit, necktie, and dress shoes to work every day without fail.
-Partakes in late night karaoke and binge drinking.

How many of the activities above describe our favorite Salaryman driver?

Kimi?

[mardmarium]

Nowhere in my post I said that these are not top pilots in top teams. They all worked super hard above the level of competition to arrive where they did. In my post I state that at some point they stopped going for the win for whatever reasons and became pilots that in the eyes of some fans seem to be driving on autopilot rather that racing for the top podium place.

I was speaking in general. I understand your point of view, it makes sense.

[turssi]

I was speaking in general. I understand your point of view, it makes sense.

Thinking back, I saw these Salaryman symptoms and wanted to check if anyone else had thought the same :-) The causes of the problem are many, starting in the roots of how the sport is being run, from FIA, FOM, the teams and the difficulty of getting lots and lots of young talent to show what they can do (or can't do in most of the cases). In the end we have top pilots continuing in top teams even after the spark has gone out.

[caccamolle]

I disagree on Webber, at least in the sense that he was forced into a "salaryman" by a team uncontrollably Vettel centric. I mean, RB would never let Webber ever have a real chance, they just gave us the illusion from time to time that they were letting them race. It is so obvious to me. Anyhow, my point is that I can hardly put Massa and Barricchello in the same boat as Webber, even though the end result might be very similar.

Well, for ages now people have spoken about lead pilots, secondary pilots, pay drivers and journeymen in Formula1 racing, but thinking about different pilot profiles the other day I made a connection in my head to a Japanese term describing people who work for the sake of work, or when in comes to F1 pilots, drive for the sake of driving, independent of the results. The term of course is that of a 'Salaryman'.

The difference between a Salaryman and a Journeyman is that these guys feel no urge, be it internal or external, to improve. They just fill a seat and independent of the performance everybody is happy. Not a very sporty thing!

The most recent example of this was Mark Webber at Red Bull. In my eyes he transformed into a a Salaryman during 2011. With Massa this happened during 2010. Kovalainen was turning into one, but McLaren let him go when it happened. Other example from McLaren would be Montoya, but he left when it happened. Earlier Salaryman prototypes could be Coulthard or Barrichello.

Do we really have office workers among the pilots these days, or am I just imagining?

For a funny wikipedia-quote, here is a list of typical Salarymen activities:

-Lifestyle revolves entirely around work at the office.
-Works over-time on a daily basis.
-Diligent but unoriginal.
-Thoroughly obedient to orders from the higher levels of the company.
-Feels a strong emotional bond with co-workers.
-Drinking, golf, and mahjong are the three main social activities that provide stimulation outside of work.
-Lack of initiative and competitiveness.
-Wears a suit, necktie, and dress shoes to work every day without fail.
-Partakes in late night karaoke and binge drinking.

How many of the activities above describe our favorite Salaryman driver?

[Risil]

What? Ridiculous. When F1 drivers stop feeling the crazy need to compete and win, they quit. The job's too dangerous and demanding to do anything else.

What I think the OP is talking about is drivers continuing after they've lost their capacity to reveal anything new.

Edited by Risil, 18 August 2013 - 17:00.

[BillyWhizz]

What? Ridiculous. When F1 drivers stop feeling the crazy need to compete and win, they quit. The job's too dangerous and demanding to do anything else.

I don't know if you're right there regarding the danger on a personal level. Hypothetical I know, but if any one of us here on these boards got the call to say that you had one year to get yourself in shape because next year you'd be driving in F1, I think for many of us 'danger' would be well down the list of reasons why not to do it. If a young man gets the chance to drive in F1, he's not going to cry off because it's dangerous.

Same for manys' a driver playing the 'supporting' team mate role and who have accepted the inter-team political status quo. OK, they must realise that they are not going to be WC in that team at that time, but in the short term at least, it's a better shop window for them than not being there at all.

[BlackCat]

i still consider heidfeld the dullest guy there has been for a long time. racing - as i see it - is about winning, not picking up some points. longest career without a win is a stupidest thing there can be.

[danmills]

What exactly is the difference between a Journeyman and a Salaryman then?

I would strike Webber off that list for the sole reason in that the dude hasn't just won, but has fought for wins. Right up to this season. No driver plodding around for the sake of it has any energy or juice inside to race like that. Webber is no salaryman at all. Nope.

Trulli is the epitome of the Journeyman/Salaryman. He got lost somewhere after 2009. There's a reason the word 'Trullitrain' is well known. He seemed to have no desire to work up the grid, or any care he was so slow he was getting cobwebs. The guy practically became an antique, yet still took the money.

The absolute definition of a journeyman/salaryman is a driver that simply doesn't know when to retire. When they're too slow. When they get overtaken more times than they overtake themselves, and when its done, its sloppy. It's like they get to an age of maturity, and then go backwards. The older they get, the crapper they get. But they still hog a seat and take the money.

For that reason, I also would take Rubens off the list, as well as Coulthard. These guys still fought and collected podiums and points in their last races. The journeyman/salaryman doesn't care for these things, its about turning up and collecting the appearance fee.

Think Damon Hill in the Jordan. Irvine at Jaguar. Villeneuve at BAR. Roberto Moreno.

At least Rubens knew when to retire gracefully on top of his game. As did DC.

Massa is the next one on the list in becoming the next Trulli. He should retire if he loses the Ferrari seat. But I bet he ends up at Williams or Sauber again.

[turssi]

@danmills: I'd say that the Salarymen get to the top teams, but then just settle for collecting the money. Journeymen go from team to team, searching for improved settings, but hardly manage their spot in the sun. But yes, one can be both during one's career.

[KateLM]

At least Rubens knew when to retire gracefully on top of his game. As did DC.

DC was well past the top of his game when he retired, and you couldn't get any further away from retiring gracefully than what Rubens did. I like the guy, but he flat out refused to retire and losing his seat in the off season was hardly graceful.

As for salarymen...no, I don't buy it. When drivers get bored they leave very soon afterwards, as Hill did, not stick around for years. Those who are in the position to driver for a salary generally have earned enough not to have to carry on. There's very little about F1 that seems fun apart from the driving itself - the travel, the politics and so on. Anyone clinging onto a seat is going so because they desperately want to continue driving - which I believe Massa does.

[mymemoryfails]

to the op

Are you vehemently opposed to team orders?

On an unrelated issue, I believe there are at least 5 times as many astronauts that have collected their salary for going into outer space (I'm sure that's why they did it) for every driver that has won a gp.


mymemoryfails

[Jimisgod]

to the op

Are you vehemently opposed to team orders?

On an unrelated issue, I believe there are at least 5 times as many astronauts that have collected their salary for going into outer space (I'm sure that's why they did it) for every driver that has won a gp.


mymemoryfails

104 drivers.

358 people have won 3 or more Olympic gold medals.

Just winning a single race in f1 is astronomically hard.

[Bruce]

The difference between a Salaryman and a Journeyman is that these guys feel no urge, be it internal or external, to improve. They just fill a seat and independent of the performance everybody is happy. Not a very sporty thing!

The most recent example of this was Mark Webber at Red Bull. In my eyes he transformed into a a Salaryman during 2011. With Massa this happened during 2010. Kovalainen was turning into one, but McLaren let him go when it happened. Other example from McLaren would be Montoya, but he left when it happened. Earlier Salaryman prototypes could be Coulthard or Barrichello.

Rubbish.

Sorry - I don't mean to be rude, but - well - RUBBISH.

Trust me - every guy on the F1 grid is there because they think they can win - and EVERY race is a new race.

You will certainly have drivers who succeed less than others (and this may be down to talent or down to the car) but ALL drivers (if they have made it to F1) are hyper-egos driven by testosterone and arrogance. I don't think ANY of them take getting beaten well (you think Barrichello is a "salary driver"? witness his public sulk at Brawn...).


Trust me - there are FAR easier ways (and far less dangerous ways) to make a couple of million a year than becoming an F1 driver.

[One]

I guess none does as suggested, only when they retire, then yes.

[Risil]

For that reason, I also would take Rubens off the list, as well as Coulthard. These guys still fought and collected podiums and points in their last races. The journeyman/salaryman doesn't care for these things, its about turning up and collecting the appearance fee.

Think Damon Hill in the Jordan. Irvine at Jaguar. Villeneuve at BAR. Roberto Moreno.

Moreno? You serious?

[Lee Nicolle]

Rubbish.

Sorry - I don't mean to be rude, but - well - RUBBISH.

Trust me - every guy on the F1 grid is there because they think they can win - and EVERY race is a new race.

You will certainly have drivers who succeed less than others (and this may be down to talent or down to the car) but ALL drivers (if they have made it to F1) are hyper-egos driven by testosterone and arrogance. I don't think ANY of them take getting beaten well (you think Barrichello is a "salary driver"? witness his public sulk at Brawn...).


Trust me - there are FAR easier ways (and far less dangerous ways) to make a couple of million a year than becoming an F1 driver.

Lets face it many know they cannot win as the equipment is either not good enough or too fragile over a race. Some comments are true. Though some are not allowed to win by their teams as has happened in recent years to Massa and Weber. I suspect Mark may have a big go from now on, bugger the team politics as he will be gone at the end of the year. though they can give him a car [as has happened frequently] that is not as fast and he can do nothing about it. That alone does not make for a driver to try as hard!

[Lee Nicolle]

Moreno? You serious?

Roberto tried in everything he ever drove, in fact accomplished far more than he had a right too.

He probably was not quite a top talent though he always did his best.

[Juggles]

Rubbish.

Sorry - I don't mean to be rude, but - well - RUBBISH.

Trust me - every guy on the F1 grid is there because they think they can win - and EVERY race is a new race.

You will certainly have drivers who succeed less than others (and this may be down to talent or down to the car) but ALL drivers (if they have made it to F1) are hyper-egos driven by testosterone and arrogance. I don't think ANY of them take getting beaten well (you think Barrichello is a "salary driver"? witness his public sulk at Brawn...).


Trust me - there are FAR easier ways (and far less dangerous ways) to make a couple of million a year than becoming an F1 driver.

 

I'm not so sure there are any easy ways to make a couple of million a year. I'd much rather be an F1 driver than, say, try to navigate my way into the upper echelons of an investment bank or law firm. Starting your own business and making it successful is another way of getting that sort of money, but it's bloody hard work. Even stealing that sort of money is difficult. So what are the easier ways? I think being a pro sportsman is generally a pretty enjoyable and very time efficient way of making the big bucks, and F1 drivers spend much less time doing their job than most athletes (though obviously spend more time with sponsors and media than most).

 

Also, bear in mind that the guys who make it to F1 are unlikely to make millions in the other fields where it might be possible. Sure, if you have a physics PhD you can start your own quant fund and possibly make billions but pro racing drivers are not geniuses, no matter how many deep Samurai quotes or "we are who we are" lines they come out with. If they want big money what other option do they have?

 

I can totally see why a driver like Massa, who knows he has no chance of winning (if he still has the sort of ego you talk about then he's deluded), would want to stick around; perhaps it's partly the salary but I think it's probably just being in the circus of F1. I see it as a bit like the Army in that respect; once you're out it's never the same again, even if it still has a powerful influence on the rest of your life. The show goes on and you aren't part of it anymore.

 

Surely remaining an insider is worth what is now, let's face it, a pretty minimal risk even if you know all your glory is behind you (or perhaps you start to find glory in smaller achievements).

[SonJR]

Timo Glock. Funny guy, but just there to do the job when he was at Marussia.

[sopa]

Yeah the easy way to "earn" millions is by winning a lottery. Otherwise it's hard work basically regardless of what you are doing.

 

Interesting comparison to "Army" there, Juggles. Well yeah, I'd imagine if you spent years and years with roughly similar people in the paddock (some drivers may change, but team personnel, etc, are a lot still the same), then it feels like a family. Even though people work in different teams, they are still in garages and motorhomes next to each other and see each other all the time.

[V3TT3L]

http://www.marca.com...1377424201.html

 

a bit off topic, but...

 

EL DATO

65.000euros es el sueldo anual medio que se maneja en la actualidad en la F1

 

Sueldos medios en la F1
Puesto Sueldo
1 Ingeniero de pista 110.000 Euros
2 Jefe de departamento (fábrica) 80.000 Euros
3 Analista de telemetria 70.000 Euros
4 Ingeniero júnior 50.000 Euros
5 Técnico en fábrica 50.000 Euros
6 Jefe de mecánicos 60.000 Euros
7 Mecánico número 1 50.000 Euros
8 Mecánico 45.000 Euros
9 Jefe de camioneros 45.000 Euros
10 Camionero 40.000 Euros
11 Responsable de la cuenta publicitaria del patrocinio 70.000 Euros
12 Asistente de la cuenta 50.000 Euros
13 Asistente de márketing 24.000 Euros
14 Secretaria 24.000 Euros

[turssi]

@v3tt3l: good salaries but in a challenging environment for sure. Still, even the race engineers would need to work 10 to 100 years longer than a successfull pilot to really cash in :-)

I wonder how long the f1 careers are in general? Do they pay taxes to the UK?

[pingu666]

i think some get tired of the travel and move sideways into a factory job.

 

kimi would be a good example of someone who just phoned it in for awhile (or atleast thats what it looked like)

[Gorma]

i think some get tired of the travel and move sideways into a factory job.

 

kimi would be a good example of someone who just phoned it in for awhile (or atleast thats what it looked like)

and went on to driving rally in Sweden, Mexico, Jordan, Turkey, Portugal, Bulgaria, Finland, Spain, Germany, Japan, France, Great Britain and Greece, not to mention NASCAR in the States. 

[Myrvold]

 

http://www.marca.com...1377424201.html

 

a bit off topic, but...

 

EL DATO

65.000euros es el sueldo anual medio que se maneja en la actualidad en la F1

 

Sueldos medios en la F1
Puesto Sueldo
1 Ingeniero de pista 110.000 Euros
2 Jefe de departamento (fábrica) 80.000 Euros
3 Analista de telemetria 70.000 Euros
4 Ingeniero júnior 50.000 Euros
5 Técnico en fábrica 50.000 Euros
6 Jefe de mecánicos 60.000 Euros
7 Mecánico número 1 50.000 Euros
8 Mecánico 45.000 Euros
9 Jefe de camioneros 45.000 Euros
10 Camionero 40.000 Euros
11 Responsable de la cuenta publicitaria del patrocinio 70.000 Euros
12 Asistente de la cuenta 50.000 Euros
13 Asistente de márketing 24.000 Euros
14 Secretaria 24.000 Euros

 

Interesting. Currently studiyng media production, with marketing/economic subjects. Main dream have been F1. But darn! I would earn more money keeping my part-time job at McDonalds, than starting out as an "Marketing assistant" in F1.

[Disgrace]

Rubbish.

Sorry - I don't mean to be rude, but - well - RUBBISH.

Trust me - every guy on the F1 grid is there because they think they can win - and EVERY race is a new race.

You will certainly have drivers who succeed less than others (and this may be down to talent or down to the car) but ALL drivers (if they have made it to F1) are hyper-egos driven by testosterone and arrogance. I don't think ANY of them take getting beaten well (you think Barrichello is a "salary driver"? witness his public sulk at Brawn...).


Trust me - there are FAR easier ways (and far less dangerous ways) to make a couple of million a year than becoming an F1 driver.

 

Time to put an end to these meaningless terms like "journeyman".

[V3TT3L]

@v3tt3l: good salaries but in a challenging environment for sure. Still, even the race engineers would need to work 10 to 100 years longer than a successfull pilot to really cash in :-)

I wonder how long the f1 careers are in general? Do they pay taxes to the UK?

Sorry, I have no solid info about that... if it was gross or wet income.

[DrivenF1]

Villeneuve does realise that you're limited by your car, doesn't he? Bottas is doing a fine job at Williams despite the places he finishes.

[eronrules]

i can think of only one

 

Mika Salo. (ferrari stint)

 

honorable mention 

 

Nick Heidfeld (later career) and Pedro Diniz

Edited by eronrules, 19 September 2013 - 18:34.

[turssi]

Now we got two no-salary men in F1. Hulk and Kimi are racing while their teams do not pay them. Are we returning to a purer sport?

Someone wrote here on the forum that Senna offered to drive for free. Has this been how common in the past?