36 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

New rules in 2014, but just Honda will enter F1 in 2015.

There are only Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault in F1. And there are not more car makers who are interested in joining F1 although F1 brings promotion to important countries like China, India and Brazil.

What can be done that they will make a F1 return?

Is it just the money?

[Tonka]

New rules in 2014, but just Honda will enter F1 in 2015.

There are only Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault in F1. And there are not more car makers who are interested in joining F1 although F1 brings promotion to important countries like China, India and Brazil.

What can be done that they will make a F1 return?

Is it just the money?

Renault are not in F1.

What do manufacturers bring to F1? I can you - instability.

[anbeck]

What can be done that they will make a F1 return?

End the global crisis.

However, for that you'd need a stable form of capitalism, which is an oxymoron.

[Mrluke]

End the global crisis.

However, for that you'd need a stable form of capitalism, which is an oxymoron.

They need to be able to demonstrate that whatever they are spending millions on in F1 is helping them sell cars.

At the moment that is pretty much impossible to do as the cars are so over regulated there is no allowance for a manufacturer to do something different and highlight it as the reason they are winning.

[JHSingo]

Make the regulations more relevant to road car technology, and the manufacturers will come. See sports car racing for more information.

[Tonka]

Make the regulations more relevant to road car technology, and the manufacturers will come. See sports car racing for more information.

That old chestnut. No proper sport needs to be relevant to what we do or have at home. F1 should be about driving fast for the sake of driving fast. The only relevance to other cars is that F1 races on tarmac. You can't drive a car on the road with open wheels, huge wings on the front & back, open exhausts and use tyres that barely last 60 miles.

If you want to see road cars racing - go to see sports cars in their various forms. Not that you can buy a winning Audi or Peugeot or Toyota to drive on the road. They're all fantasy cars too.

[Shiroo]

Fix global crisis, so the manufacturers will sell more cars, cause peps will have more cash. So everyone will have more cash to spend it pointlessly in sports like F1, cause they will think that osmehow it will increase their exposure and car sells

Edited by Shiroo, 19 August 2013 - 12:59.

[Frank Tuesday]

I don't want them back. They are bad for the stability of the sport. They come and go as their marketing and finances dictate. Stability comes from having teams whose business is racing, not teams who are in it for marketing purposes. Long live the Garagista.

[HistoryFan]

Renault are not in F1.

They build engines - something I also count.

[HistoryFan]

Make the regulations more relevant to road car technology, and the manufacturers will come. See sports car racing for more information.

Do not know what makes sports cars better than F1 from technology. Some examples`?

[HistoryFan]

That old chestnut. No proper sport needs to be relevant to what we do or have at home. F1 should be about driving fast for the sake of driving fast. The only relevance to other cars is that F1 races on tarmac. You can't drive a car on the road with open wheels, huge wings on the front & back, open exhausts and use tyres that barely last 60 miles.

If you want to see road cars racing - go to see sports cars in their various forms. Not that you can buy a winning Audi or Peugeot or Toyota to drive on the road. They're all fantasy cars too.

But some years ago the car makers also go to Formula One.

[SenorSjon]

When F1 is a sport again, and no longer just entertainment.

You are forbidden to develop the performance of your engine in a year time. It is to big a risk for a car maker to enter F1 untested. F1 is overregulated and you can't really stand out as a car maker. It is a matter of time before Renault thinks it is enough. When Bernie gets jailed for corruption (like that will happen ;)), Mercedes skips as well and we only have Ferrari and Honda left.

[DampMongoose]

F1 isn't really about car makers, it's generally based more on private teams with a couple of manufacturers thrown in every so often... however, the only realistic way I could see it changing is if you had a change like that in the late 80's early 90's when Bernie and the FIA ruined the more popular Group C by making the manufacturers develop 3.5's which could be used in F1 also (rather than 4, 6, 8 and 12 cylinder road derived engines they had been using). If the FIA introduced a rule that required sportscars to use a type of engine that could also be permitted under F1 rules, then it 'may' make a difference, although times have changed and I don't think many people buy cars anymore based on "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday", not in the green hell we live in today so who knows!

Personally I don't want the manufacturers back other than for engine supply, I'd rather see a budget enforced so that privateer teams don't have the barriers to entry, then we could have a decent series with a choice of chassis, engines etc and have a more open championship like back when F1 teams could rise up with a DFV and a March chassis and have a crack out of a lock-up!

[Atreiu]

Renault are not in F1.

What do manufacturers bring to F1? I can you - instability.

Turbo engines, pneumatic valves. It's enough for me.
They should always be engouraged to join as engine manufacturers, IMO.

[F1ultimate]

Car manufacturers only care about SUVs these days and thus joining F1 makes litte sense since the technology transferable from an F1 car to an SUV is minimal. Even BMW, a sporty brand are on the brink of launching a BMW X4 - their 5th SUV!

[DampMongoose]

Do not know what makes sports cars better than F1 from technology. Some examples`?

I remember watching a Jag at Le Mans in '88 have its windscreen chip glued back together in the pits like Autoglass do now (I even remember John Watson sayng this technology would be available to the public in a few years). Sportscars have always had the upper hand on new technology that has more bearing on road cars as the rules have always been less rigid, allowing more openings to new technology particlularly on engine development.

[One]

Try out more thing that car makers are interested in.
'14 reg get Honda back.

[JHSingo]

That old chestnut. No proper sport needs to be relevant to what we do or have at home. F1 should be about driving fast for the sake of driving fast. The only relevance to other cars is that F1 races on tarmac. You can't drive a car on the road with open wheels, huge wings on the front & back, open exhausts and use tyres that barely last 60 miles.

If you want to see road cars racing - go to see sports cars in their various forms. Not that you can buy a winning Audi or Peugeot or Toyota to drive on the road. They're all fantasy cars too.

Good luck persuading any of the major manufacturers to spend their millions racing in Formula One any more then. As Darren Cox from Nissan said in Autosport not too long ago, the days of manufacturers spending big bucks to go racing for the hell of it are long gone.

There needs to be a good reason for a manufacturer to race, whether it is to show off new technologies or whatever, or is something just completely new.

Why do you think Audi, Toyota, Porsche, Nissan etc, are choosing to race in sports cars instead of Formula One? I've probably already answered that for you, but it seems you don't understand what road relevant means.

Do not know what makes sports cars better than F1 from technology. Some examples`?

Allowing manufacturers to use alternate fuel for a start. Audi has really put what it has learnt from its diesel race engines into its road car division. Read up on TDI technology if you don't believe me.

This year's Garage 56 car was a hydrogen-electric, and while it didn't start, it won't be long before that technology becomes more widespread. Nissan will attempt to race an all electric car at Le Mans next year.

Then there are the hybrid systems Audi and Toyota are using, which are a lot better than KERS in Formula One is.

[pingu666]

theres two sides i think which are key, manufactorers want to showcase their technology, and i think internaly the engineers etc have got to sell the project to management and marketing, and as a enginering thing f1 is pretty dull, and dominated by aero.

[HaydenFan]

End the global crisis.

However, for that you'd need a stable form of capitalism, which is an oxymoron.

You need to justify to the investors (stock holders) that spending hundreds of millions for completely advertising motives is worth the investment. Like said, you need to prove to the board and the people who have money in the company (who elected the board) that it will ultimately make the company money by selling cars.

And like all advertising, that idea is flawed even more than that great statement on capitalism. Outside of creating brand recognition, what's the point of the automakers in F1? Everyone knows Renault, Ford, General Motors, Toyota, Honda.

Now if a company like Fisker, or Tesla, or Tata (not just as a sponsor), or even Kia invested, that would be great. Those are the companies that could actually use F1 for something other than a toy or pet project for a CEO who might be a racing fan.

Toyota doesn't need to return to F1. Or BMW, or any car company that majority of us own. Those companies build cars that we all know and we all would either buy or not buy. They have a proven record to us. Now if Tata wanted to expand into Europe or the Americas, F1 could work. Or if Kia wanted to improve it's image (good cars but still thought of as crap by most people). F1 is a marketing machine, and for the likes of the largest auto makers F1 is not needed.

[HistoryFan]

Yes, but wasn't that the matter also ten years ago, when we had a lot of car makers in F1?

[anbeck]

Now if a company like Fisker, or Tesla, or Tata (not just as a sponsor), or even Kia invested, that would be great. Those are the companies that could actually use F1 for something other than a toy or pet project for a CEO who might be a racing fan.

"Welcome to our coverage of the Qatar Grand Prix, the final race of the 2019 F1 season. The exciting event sees two drivers still in contention for the championship: Johnny Cecotto Jr., driving for McLaren-Kia, and Michael Schumacher in his Schumacher-Tata."

Now that has the ringing of a Golden Age of grand prix glory to it

[seahawk]

There is no longer any meaningful connection between F1 and road cars. See Renault winning title after title for 4 years, road car division in trouble. Compared to VW, never been to F1, doing well. Toyota sells more after leaving, BMW too. Hyundai has huge gains in market share, not in F1.

[teejay]

Give them more say in the sport - not control, but a say.

 

"come spend billions but you get no say in how the sport is run or why"

[oetzi]

That's really sound logic.

 

Perhaps Manchester City, Paris St Germain and Monaco should get to rewrite the laws of football in recognition of their immense recent investment.

[BlackCat]

i hope Merc too will be gone soon. yes, let manufactures make the engines. but allow F1 to use only engines from serial production. at least 50 that everybody can buy.

[teejay]

That's really sound logic.

 

Perhaps Manchester City, Paris St Germain and Monaco should get to rewrite the laws of football in recognition of their immense recent investment.

 

Rules have been written and re-written before during and after manufacturers being in F1

[packapoo]

Renault are not in F1.

What do manufacturers bring to F1? I can you - instability.

So in Renault's circumstance the solution is simple?

Forgive them for Singapore.

I'll offer up solutions on other manufacturers as you toss them into the ring. 

[Felix]

For subs:

 

http://plus.autospor...makers-into-f1/

[Jamiednm]

Renault feel like the odd one out to me. They don't produce any premium cars or supercars. Mercedes and Ferrari do. I certainly think that F1 association works for these manufacturers, as some people who drive these prestige brands will like their marques involvement in F1, even though there is little similarity between F1 car and road car.

With Renault in F1, their modus operandi is less clear. The only desireable Renault for a petrol head is the Megane World Series, which is a very niche part of their market.

[William Hunt]

I'd rather see all of them out and replaced by lots of independent constructors on a much much lower budget, like in the '70s-'80s.

[undersquare]

If manufacturers are wanted, then the way to get them in is to get rid of Bernie.  He ignored the US for decades, and has tracks coming and going willy-nilly to feed the leeches with no thought for building up a consistent presence in a market.  He's a complete liar who says Free To Air one minute and Sky the next, or India or anything else.  How can a company plan a billion-dollar campaign over five or more years when the key races could easily have been casually axed by the time their team gets to the front?  And when their team could easily lose out to the blatantly not-level playing field that Bernie runs?

 

On whether we want the manufacturers, surely the worst thing is to have one.  

[noikeee]

Ask them really nicely and offer them biscuits.

[Brother Fox]

Remove their accountability to shareholders.

 

Not going to happen, but this accountability reduces their particiption down to a justfiable expense - and theres very little way to justify the staggering amount it costs, and thats will very little chance of success.

In recent times Ford, BMW & Toyota have all been burned. Most other makers seem to be heeding the warning.

[Timstr11]

Reduce the importance of aerodynamics and increase the importance of mechanical technology.

F1 aerodynamics is highly empirical and the knowledge is contained within existing F1 teams. So it is not a competency of car manufacturers.

Their competency is engines, gearbox and suspension technology. Allow more freedom in those areas and you will see car manufacturers much more interested.

[Shiroo]

Reduce the importance of aerodynamics and increase the importance of mechanical technology.

F1 aerodynamics is highly empirical and the knowledge is contained within existing F1 teams. So it is not a competency of car manufacturers.

Their competency is engines, gearbox and suspension technology. Allow more freedom in those areas and you will see car manufacturers much more interested.

You sir, got my like.

 

I highly doubt to see any soon a car with Coanda Exhaust or Front Wing of such sizes with some vertical wings on the body.

[PayasYouRace]

Renault feel like the odd one out to me. They don't produce any premium cars or supercars. Mercedes and Ferrari do. I certainly think that F1 association works for these manufacturers, as some people who drive these prestige brands will like their marques involvement in F1, even though there is little similarity between F1 car and road car.

With Renault in F1, their modus operandi is less clear. The only desireable Renault for a petrol head is the Megane World Series, which is a very niche part of their market.

 

I think Renault like to continue based on their own racing heritage rather than any relation to what they produce for the road.