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Button to Ferrari?


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#101 Force Ten

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 19:02

The Jenson vs Sergio thread is calm enough. But yeah I wouldn't mind them pairing up at all.

 

Sarcasm, baby. :) I think that would be the most vicious and vitriolic place in the whole forum :)



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#102 Gintonious

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 19:06

I think he would be a good fit actually, never say never.



#103 Lights

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 19:09

Sarcasm, baby. :) I think that would be the most vicious and vitriolic place in the whole forum :)

Sorry, really didn't catch that. They're basically my two favorite drivers, perhaps that explains why I can't imagine so  :)



#104 SpaMaster

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 19:19

Fernando has never thought highly of Jenson, so I assume it wouldn't be a problem for him.

 

Ideally Alonso would like Ferrari to be just a one-car team, which is pretty much what it has become over the past 2-3 years.

 



#105 Burtros

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 19:57

Ideally Alonso would like Ferrari to be just a one-car team, which is pretty much what it has become over the past 2-3 years.

 

 

I think a lot of that is Massa driving himself into number 2 position. Look back at 08/09 it seems that Ferrari have no troubles backing both drivers these days.

 

I think looking at the broader picture than just specifically JB, the 2nd Ferrari seat isnt quite the poisoned chalice it was for Irvine/Barrichello. People just take a long time to forget and Massa isnt doing the viewpoint any favours.



#106 WitnessX

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:47

From what Jenson said it's clearly McLaren's choice on the option and they're keeping it open.  This may be for any number of reasons, Kimi and Button would be an awesome duo but I doubt McLaren would resign Button on the same $$ if they had to pay for Kimi as well.  Checo is the biggest question mark, I just don't know if anyone in McLaren is comfortable enough yet to commit to him long term.

Wippy on Button Future - Sky: http://www1.skysport.../12433/8885372/

 

It looks like the same situation as 2011. McLaren want him to negotiate a longer term contract rather than just taking up the option for him for just next year.

 

As far as money is concerned for two highly paid drivers at McLaren don't see the problem, after all they were trying to entice Lewis to stay on and AFAIK his salary demands were not small. My understanding is that McLaren takes over the sponsorship deals of the drivers, this makes the drivers salary related to the sponsors (ie their McLaren salaries include sponsorship & promotional work).

 

Somehow I don't see Kimi in a Santander "Pour Student" ad. ("Poor" Student?) and I'm sure he would be happy with a small salary and no promo. work, after all I'm sure it would be better than the amount he is (or not) getting payed at Lotus.

 

Button has already stated he can he could retire happily without having driven for Ferrari, and that the most important thing for a driver is the championship. Nobody knows at this stage what cars are going to be the good ones, however I would guess that Button knows and can judge the quality of the engineering teams better than most of us, and the thought of being with McLaren when it re-couples with Honda must be tempting.



#107 undersquare

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:58

Wippy on Button Future - Sky: http://www1.skysport.../12433/8885372/

 

It looks like the same situation as 2011. McLaren want him to negotiate a longer term contract rather than just taking up the option for him for just next year.

 

As far as money is concerned for two highly paid drivers at McLaren don't see the problem, after all they were trying to entice Lewis to stay on and AFAIK his salary demands were not small. My understanding is that McLaren takes over the sponsorship deals of the drivers, this makes the drivers salary related to the sponsors (ie their McLaren salaries include sponsorship & promotional work).

 

Somehow I don't see Kimi in a Santander "Pour Student" ad. ("Poor" Student?) and I'm sure he would be happy with a small salary and no promo. work, after all I'm sure it would be better than the amount he is (or not) getting payed at Lotus.

 

Button has already stated he can he could retire happily without having driven for Ferrari, and that the most important thing for a driver is the championship. Nobody knows at this stage what cars are going to be the good ones, however I would guess that Button knows and can judge the quality of the engineering teams better than most of us, and the thought of being with McLaren when it re-couples with Honda must be tempting.

Hmmm, don't see any of this tbh.  Kimi-and-the-Robertsons have always been expensive to the max (chances are they're playing hardball with RBR),   But JB is expensive too.  If McLaren are looking at a choice between Kimi and Jense, which way are they going to jump?   I don't see promo as a showstopper; Vodafone are out of it next year anyway.

 

It's a bit desperate of Whitmarsh to be saying JB matched Lewis on points, when that is so much down to the team.  Why the flattery?  It's like 'we're not signing him yet but we do love him really, honestly'.

 

JB is 34 next January; if he's moving it has to be now, otherwise he has no reason to be arguing against a long extension.  Offering Hamilton a lot of money is just business sense, as we can see, it doesn't mean they want to carry on paying JB £15m.

 

So are they waiting for Red Bull to make up their minds about Kimi?  Why else are they prevaricating?  It has to be that or money. Or JB is holding off for a chance at Ferrari, or even Red Bull.

 

Everybody is waiting for Kimi, I reckon: Ferrari and McLaren. Then JB gets the other seat, depending on the money.



#108 WitnessX

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:07

Hmmm, don't see any of this tbh.  Kimi-and-the-Robertsons have always been expensive to the max (chances are they're playing hardball with RBR),   But JB is expensive too.  If McLaren are looking at a choice between Kimi and Jense, which way are they going to jump?   I don't see promo as a showstopper; Vodafone are out of it next year anyway.

 

It's a bit desperate of Whitmarsh to be saying JB matched Lewis on points, when that is so much down to the team.  Why the flattery?  It's like 'we're not signing him yet but we do love him really, honestly'.

 

JB is 34 next January; if he's moving it has to be now, otherwise he has no reason to be arguing against a long extension.  Offering Hamilton a lot of money is just business sense, as we can see, it doesn't mean they want to carry on paying JB £15m.

 

So are they waiting for Red Bull to make up their minds about Kimi?  Why else are they prevaricating?  It has to be that or money. Or JB is holding off for a chance at Ferrari, or even Red Bull.

 

Everybody is waiting for Kimi, I reckon: Ferrari and McLaren. Then JB gets the other seat, depending on the money.

 

You may have missed this...

 

Tobias Grüner ams F1
@tgruener
#F1 Kimi is not an option for @McLarenF1 Whitmarsh: "We like to continue with Jenson & Checo" AMuS: http://www.auto-moto...mi-7654349.html

 

Apparently McLaren prefer to "jump" for their current drivers.



#109 undersquare

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:24

You may have missed this...

 

Tobias Grüner ams F1
@tgruener
#F1 Kimi is not an option for @McLarenF1 Whitmarsh: "We like to continue with Jenson & Checo" AMuS: http://www.auto-moto...mi-7654349.html

 

Apparently McLaren prefer to "jump" for their current drivers.

I had missed it but not sure it follows.  MW saying "We'd LIKE to continue with JB and Checo"  is not the same at all as "We're signing Jense."  It leaves all doors open, surely not by accident.  Just as JB does when he says he "wants" to stay at McLaren.

 

There is at least one reason why they haven't signed, after all.  Could be money, could be JB@Ferrari, could be Kimi@Mac.  Could even be JB@Red Bull, which I would love to see.



#110 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:25

Mclaren is F1's perrenial B or C team.

 

They're always a contender for podiums and wins (2013 excepted) but they never hit the big time with a WDC or WCC. Whenever they've produced a good car they've managed to fluff it somehow. 

 

This is not an attack on Mclaren, but since they've been strong contenders for wins (from 1997 onwards now), they have competed FOR the WDC and WCC just about every year and yet won it just 3 times (98, 99, 2008 and 98 for WCC). That itself shows a pattern of consistent underperforming year in year out.

 

If Kimi goes there it'll be for money because I don't see them winning any major title for a long time yet,



#111 Force Ten

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:33

Mclaren is F1's perrenial B or C team.

 

They're always a contender for podiums and wins (2013 excepted) but they never hit the big time with a WDC or WCC. Whenever they've produced a good car they've managed to fluff it somehow. 

 

This is not an attack on Mclaren,

So were Ferrari from late seventies to 2000. Your point is? And what has that got to do with Button to Ferrari? And oh yeah, it was nothing BUT an attack on McLaren that had little if anything to do with the topic at hand.



#112 BillBald

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 10:31

Mclaren is F1's perrenial B or C team.

 

They're always a contender for podiums and wins (2013 excepted) but they never hit the big time with a WDC or WCC. Whenever they've produced a good car they've managed to fluff it somehow. 

 

This is not an attack on Mclaren, but since they've been strong contenders for wins (from 1997 onwards now), they have competed FOR the WDC and WCC just about every year and yet won it just 3 times (98, 99, 2008 and 98 for WCC). That itself shows a pattern of consistent underperforming year in year out.

 

If Kimi goes there it'll be for money because I don't see them winning any major title for a long time yet,

 

But you could say the same about Ferrari (since they lost Todt & Brawn).

 

There is only one clear A team at the moment, although it looks like Merc could join them.

 

What's a little puzzling is that drivers aren't apparently desperate to get into a Red Bull.



#113 Force Ten

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 10:35

What's a little puzzling is that drivers aren't apparently desperate to get into a Red Bull.

 

Could be that it is a little bit less two car team than it is outwardly implied. Say what you want about Webber but he is not 1/12 the driver Vettel is. Wasn't that the win score of 2011 for them? Maybe as long as a certain Doktor Marko is there the drivers are interested but not desperate.



#114 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:02

I still expect Button to stay at McLaren, a move to Ferrari would place him as second in a team who does it all for number 1. Red Bull can claim as much as they want, but they have adopted the Ferrari ways of doing things as well. Vettel number 1, anyone else number 2. I am firm believer in this being the correct way to run a team clear number 1 and number 2, part of the various teams downfall is when they suddenly have two drivers who think they are number 1.

 

:cool:



#115 Dunc

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:44

Button to Ferrari would make sense for quite a lot of reasons.

 

It would be good for Santander to have two of their faces in one team, though it would be bad for McLaren
.

Button is able to get the car home regularly and get performances out of it, something Ferrari needs to get its WCC.   Plus, when he's in the zone, he's a match for anyone, which would also be good for the WDC.

 

Perhaps more than anything though it's his maturity that would make him attractive.  He'd be able to handle Nando and the intense scrutiny that comes from being a Ferrari driver.



#116 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:47

I am not sure I agree that Button is especially mature. Think by and large all the drivers act as spoiled brats.

 

:cool:



#117 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:31

But you could say the same about Ferrari (since they lost Todt & Brawn).

 

There is only one clear A team at the moment, although it looks like Merc could join them.

 

What's a little puzzling is that drivers aren't apparently desperate to get into a Red Bull.

 

I suppose the big rule change for 2014 throws up alot of doubts about whether Red Bull will still be competitive.

 

Mercedes look on the upswing. Ferrari will be strong.

 

Will Mclaren? Will Renault especially if Kimi leaves?



#118 anbeck

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 13:43

I suppose the big rule change for 2014 throws up alot of doubts about whether Red Bull will still be competitive.

 

Mercedes look on the upswing. Ferrari will be strong.

 

 

Do you mind sharing your crystal ball with us?



#119 BillBald

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 14:07

I suppose the big rule change for 2014 throws up alot of doubts about whether Red Bull will still be competitive.

 

Mercedes look on the upswing. Ferrari will be strong.

 

Will Mclaren? Will Renault especially if Kimi leaves?

 

Red Bull have been so competent, in every way, in the last couple of years that it's hard to see them remaining uncompetitive for long.

 

I'm not so sure about Ferrari, it could go either way. Lotus may be short of money.

 

McLaren need to take a long hard look at themselves, that may or may not be happening.



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#120 BillBald

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 14:09

I am not sure I agree that Button is especially mature. Think by and large all the drivers act as spoiled brats.

 

:cool:

 

I think that's what make Button seem mature, by comparison.

:)



#121 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 14:10

The engines are built to 'spec' or at least locked in to something quite constraining, I will expect the engines to be more or less equal. The various energy recovery additions are where there could be a difference, but since the powers that is wants parity, I expect that to more or less work out as well.

 

So next year I expect the top teams to be:

 

Red Bull

Mercedes

Ferrari

Lotus - I am not sure who will drive, I am not sure which engine they will use so could see them fall away.

 

:cool:



#122 Lazy

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 14:12

The engines are built to 'spec' or at least locked in to something quite constraining, I will expect the engines to be more or less equal. The various energy recovery additions are where there could be a difference, but since the powers that is wants parity, I expect that to more or less work out as well.

 

So next year I expect the top teams to be:

 

Red Bull

Mercedes

Ferrari

Lotus - I am not sure who will drive, I am not sure which engine they will use so could see them fall away.

 

:cool:

RB's Kers issues give an indication that they may struggle with the ERS.



#123 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 14:13

I think that's what make Button seem mature, by comparison.

:)

 

Think I have written before in this thread, that I am not keen on Button. So any negative comment about him I make, have to be read in that context. But he is as whining and complining as the worst ones out there, he is not a good team mate at McLaren this season. The Modus Operandi at Ferrari is that we clean our laundry in-house, and Alonso was told of for that reason. You can count on 1 hand how many times Schumacher was critical of Ferrari in public, all the teams should expect the same from their drivers.

 

:cool:



#124 tkulla

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 14:49

I don't think this will happen, but only because I think the signals coming from around Maranello are suggesting that Ferrari won't be strong next year, at least engine-wise. The notion that Fernando might be looking to jump ship confirm that a bit. Therefore Jenson may figure that staying put may give him a better chance at wins or another WDC than moving to Ferrari, no matter how attractive the prestige of the team is and the challenge of taking on Fernando on his turf would be to him.



#125 PARAZAR

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 15:29

Think I have written before in this thread, that I am not keen on Button. So any negative comment about him I make, have to be read in that context. But he is as whining and complining as the worst ones out there, he is not a good team mate at McLaren this season. The Modus Operandi at Ferrari is that we clean our laundry in-house, and Alonso was told of for that reason. You can count on 1 hand how many times Schumacher was critical of Ferrari in public, all the teams should expect the same from their drivers.

 

:cool:

News flash. They all whine and complain. Plus he's not a good team mate? What's that about?  :cool:



#126 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 15:52

Do you mind sharing your crystal ball with us?

 

Look at 2008 and 2009 for Honda/Brawn.

 

Big Rule change, massive performance gain.

 

2008 to 2009 for Red Bull, competitive to ultra competitive and WDC challengers.

 

The rule changes favour some more than others. If comments are to be believed, the Mercedes may have a power advantage and aerodynamics may play a lesser role (Newey's strengths).

 

We do not know for 2014. All we do know is that the 2009-2013 rules have favoured Newey's high downforce approach whereas 2014 may not. There could be an entirely new pecking order.

 

 

PS: Since you asked so rudely for a crystal ball, here it is

 

Crystal-Ball-Wallpapers16-300x298.jpg



#127 BillBald

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 15:58

RB's Kers issues give an indication that they may struggle with the ERS.

 

I think Newey has never really wanted KERS on the car, that's why he's messed around with a less powerful version.

 

That won't be an option next year, but he may compromise reliability with tight packaging. So we could see some car failures.



#128 anbeck

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 18:15

Do you mind sharing your crystal ball with us?

 

 

Look at 2008 and 2009 for Honda/Brawn.

 

Big Rule change, massive performance gain.

 

Yeah, Brawn pulled a one-off gizmo there, but Red Bull only lost the WDC by 11 points that year.

 

Of course, there's always a chance that a rule change leads to big changes in relative strength, but chances are that such rule changes favor teams with resources and good people. As you say, 2009 saw Brawn and Newey emerging, both teams were more or less a joke in the previous year (slight exaggeration). But the rule which we can deduce from the changes from 2008 to 2009 is not: "big rule changes lead to big changes on the grid in a random way." 

The rule is: "Big rule changes tend to favor big brains (and resources, but only if the brains are there to make use of them)."

 

And that's why I think RBR will be a good choice for next year. Mercedes probably as well, but they have been moving forward and backward since 2009 (or 2010, if you will), so I think they don't have the "routine" in building championship challenging cars. Lotus might be moving towards the mid-field, whereas with McLaren and Ferrari it is hard to say. They certainly have the potential and people to build winning cars.

 

But if I were Button, I'd stay put, because you have no idea where your car might end up. And if you change teams for next year, it's probably a 2-season contract with an option, so you cannot get out easily if you made the wrong choice. But if you stay in the same team for one more year, you can see what effect the new rules have on the relative strength of the teams, and then choose accordingly.

 

That's exactly how Vettel played it: one more year RBR, then see how the playing field settles.

 

However, Button is not in the same situation as Vettel: if Button does not go to Ferrari this year (if he has the chance), he'll probably never have that chance again (the seat will be filled with some long-term number 2). And if next year's McLaren isn't a winner, and maybe Perez settles in, then Button might even fade away and will never find another top cockpit.

 

So if he has the chance and really wants some of that Ferrari glory, he should get it. But if he's cool and reasonable, he'll probably go for a 1-year extension and see how the 2014 grid forms up (and what data Honda is putting on the table for 2015).



#129 WitnessX

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 16:35

Button: Contract talk was just a wind up, I'm staying at McLaren next season



#130 BRG

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 17:04

AH, but he would say that, wouldn't he?  CLear evidence that he has signed for Maranello.  That and the fact that he was seen eating....a pizza!!!!  How much clearer can it be?



#131 trogggy

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 17:06

There's a joke about German sausage in there somewhere.



#132 study

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 17:25

 

I wonder if there was some bluff going on there that has either worked or not.



#133 Risil

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 17:27

Shame if he doesn't. I don't think there's ever been a driver to have raced for all four of Williams, Mclaren, Ferrari and That Enstone Team.

 

Mind you since those four teams are no longer F1's biggest names it may not be an important distinction.


Edited by Risil, 26 August 2013 - 17:28.


#134 Lazy

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 18:59

Good news I think, whilst aero is still as much art as science, the new power trains will be, imo, the critical factor in the next few years and they will be very much a technical exercise. Neweys genius will be of little use for this and McLarens, and Hondas, MO will be much more appropriate.