77 replies to this topic

[Jackmancer]

Three punctures in FP2:
Vettel, Van de Garde and Alonso.

 

 

 

Are we in for another race influenced by the tyres?

[Trust]

I say bring back Nirburgring spec tyres. This one aren't good.

[ExFlagMan]

Just stop driving over the kerbs/run-off areas and throwing rocks back onto the track.

[Kvothe]

Has it actually been confirmed that Van de Garde's incident was caused by a puncture?

 

Paul Hembery says 2 tyre failures in FP2 in Spa is "a worry for the sport".

 

(courtesy of Andrew Benson)

 

No mention of three.

Edited by Kvothe, 23 August 2013 - 15:20.

[ViMaMo]

Just stop driving over the kerbs/run-off areas and throwing rocks back onto the track.

 

U mean just coast around ?

[jrg19]

'It looks on the Red Bull as if something's been rubbing on the surface and cut the surface...'

 

 

From Paul Hembery

 

Maybe RedBull floor is to close to the tyre or the loads they create causing the tyre to touch the floor at high speed?

[Disgrace]

So long as nobody is hurt, I really cannot be bothered about these gorgonzola tyres anymore.

[pRy]

"Pirelli motorsport boss Paul Hembery says two tyre failures in P2 in Spa is "a worry for the sport". Says something on track damaging tyres."

[Antonov]

bye bye Pirelli.

[Blackmore]

Pirelli and their supporters keep on blaming the drivers, the cars, the tarmac, the kerbs, the weather, George Bush farting...never does it occur to them it could actually be the **** tyres.

[Andrew Hope]

I don't ever want to hear about tyres in racing ever again. A necessary component of a sport that shouldn't generate hardly any talk or controversy.

 

Imagine this **** in another sport. "Well here we are on match day 3 of the Premier League. Adidas has released an updated ball after complaints the ball used in weeks 1 and 2 was too light and free kicks were going out of the park every time you turned around, but the new ball has come under criticism for being too soft, as we've already seen 9 of them deflate in pre-match warmups this week. An Adidas spokesperson has addressed the issue and asked players not to kick the ball so hard".

[Disgrace]

That was the 2010 football World Cup to be fair. And it was ****.

[Trust]

As long as the car is not gold/black I don't really care about those troubles.

[redreni]

Out of interest, does anyone know what happened to the mandatory camber and pressure limits? Are they still being enforced? If so, are they going to be put into the regulations?

 

If these failures are occurring despite the mandatory camber and pressure limits, then unless we've had two freak incidents, Pirelli would appear to have run out of excuses.

[l8apex]

Out of interest, does anyone know what happened to the mandatory camber and pressure limits? Are they still being enforced? If so, are they going to be put into the regulations?

 

If these failures are occurring despite the mandatory camber and pressure limits, then unless we've had two freak incidents, Pirelli would appear to have run out of excuses.

 

They are still being enforced.

 

Pirelli is out of excuses... it will be a disaster if they have another Silverstone with the new tires, no swapping and limits on pressure/camber in place.

Edited by l8apex, 23 August 2013 - 16:16.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Ironically, if there are more serious issues than just 'debris/kerbs' etc that Pirelli keep saying is the problem (isn't that what they're always going to say, if we're honest), if Sunday is wet, it should mean no issues (in the same way that Silverstone Friday was wet so no issues, when it was dry, we did have issues). Anyway, whether it's kerbs, debris or whatever, what does that say about the strength of their tyres? They should be able to cope with the kerbs, even the sharper ones, as well as general debris. Yeah, ok, you might run over a piece of carbon fibre which we all know is sharp, but even so, the last thing we need is tyres blowing and the debris from them hitting another driver on the head, as nearly happened at Silverstone.

[kimister]

Mark Webber: "We need answers and 'debris' is not the answer,". http://www.autosport...t.php/id/109415 

 

Also on twitter it has been written that ''Adrian Sutil has asked the FIA for a signed document that guarantees no problems with the tyres. Without it, he won't race''

 

 

How far can they  go if FIA cannot give satisfactory response , maybe again threaten for withdrawing from race for safety issues?

Edited by kimister, 23 August 2013 - 17:47.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

The drivers will likely only withdraw if, as in Indy 2005, the tyre company say the tyres aren't safe. If that doesn't happen, the drivers will be expected by their teams to drive in the race.

[g1n]

Mark Webber: "We need answers and 'debris' is not the answer,". http://www.autosport...t.php/id/109415 

 

Also on twitter it has been written that ''Adrian Sutil has asked the FIA for a signed document that guarantees no problems with the tyres. Without it, he won't race''

 

 

How far can they  go if FIA cannot give satisfactory response , maybe again threaten for withdrawing from race for safety issues?

I like the guy, but that is just so idiotic....What's next, a guarantee that you will not get hurt in motorsport?!

[Garagiste]

Well as DI Blundell from sniffpetrol put it:

" If you done ask for tyres what done be crap, you is going to get, in fairness, tyres what is crap."

[anbeck]

I like the guy, but that is just so idiotic....What's next, a guarantee that you will not get hurt in motorsport?!

 

Hmm, I always was puzzled by the fact that some drivers and media hated Stewart for pushing safety and organising driver strikes. But actually there are people like that in the 21st century as well! 

[Timstr11]

 

Also on twitter it has been written that ''Adrian Sutil has asked the FIA for a signed document that guarantees no problems with the tyres. Without it, he won't race''

So someone says on twitter that Sutil wants a written guarantee!?

Must be be true than :-/

Edited by Timstr11, 23 August 2013 - 18:10.

[JHSingo]

I like the guy, but that is just so idiotic....What's next, a guarantee that you will not get hurt in motorsport?!

 

Is it honestly surprising, given the fuss they kick up about racing whenever it rains?

[dau]

So someone says on twitter that Sutil wants a written guarantee!?

Must be be true than :-/

Seems like it's coming from Autosprint

 

"Ma c’è chi non si sente sicuro: Adrian Sutil vuole una garanzia scritta della FIA sulla sicurezza delle gomme, altrimenti minaccia di non correre." [But there are those who do not feel safe: Adrian Sutil wants a written guarantee of the FIA ​​safety of the tires, otherwise threatening not to run.]

http://autosprint.co...riabili-2/9749/

 

 

Other than that, the Twitter search only brought up a Speedweek interview where they explicitly ask him about tyre issues and mention Vettel's and "other's" tyre failures. 

 

"Die Reifen verhalten sich immer noch ein bisschen komisch, aber das kriegen wir schon hin, das sind keine grossen Probleme." [The tires still behave a bit weird, but we'll manage, these are not major problems.]

http://www.speedweek...er-meckern.html

Edited by dau, 23 August 2013 - 18:32.

[Trust]

Kimi said he'll drive and he hates politics.

[Winter98]

I don't ever want to hear about tyres in racing ever again. A necessary component of a sport that shouldn't generate hardly any talk or controversy.

 

Imagine this **** in another sport. "Well here we are on match day 3 of the Premier League. Adidas has released an updated ball after complaints the ball used in weeks 1 and 2 was too light and free kicks were going out of the park every time you turned around, but the new ball has come under criticism for being too soft, as we've already seen 9 of them deflate in pre-match warmups this week. An Adidas spokesperson has addressed the issue and asked players not to kick the ball so hard".

 

So true!  

[moorsey]

Why oh why can't we have tyres that can be RACED on??? If the FIA want the teams to have to stop twice then simply write it into the rules "Every driver must stop twice during every race". How difficult is it?

If the tyres did not dictate when the drivers had to stop there would be a lot more options for pure racing strategy as in driver one could stop early while driver two could pit as late as possible.

[OvDrone]

Well as DI Blundell from sniffpetrol put it:

" If you done ask for tyres what done be crap, you is going to get, in fairness, tyres what is crap."

 

[SpaMaster]

Let them boycott once instead of these empty threats..

[Baddoer]

My bet that Red Bull again playing with fire trying something illegal. Tires are fine, just deal with it.

[Baddoer]

So someone says on twitter that Sutil wants a written guarantee!?

Must be be true than :-/

And who will write a guarantee that Adrian won't slit someone when he is drunk?

[Atreiu]

And who will write a guarantee that Adrian won't slit someone when he is drunk?

That is entirely related and perfectly explains the whole scenario. I have no more doubts. Thanks.

[JHSingo]

My bet that Red Bull again playing with fire trying something illegal. Tires are fine, just deal with it.

 

And that's why it happened to Ferrari as well, is it?

[jrg19]

And who will write a guarantee that Adrian won't slit someone when he is drunk?

 

Well.... Not Lewis. 

[Freung]

U mean just coast around ?

  you beat me to it. Unreal.!!

[Freung]

Why oh why can't we have tyres that can be RACED on??? If the FIA want the teams to have to stop twice then simply write it into the rules "Every driver must stop twice during every race". How difficult is it?

If the tyres did not dictate when the drivers had to stop there would be a lot more options for pure racing strategy as in driver one could stop early while driver two could pit as late as possible.

Some drivers on the grid instill real in others..Cut off your nose to spite your face comes to mind. I've said enough. 

[Freung]

Some drivers on the grid instill real in others..Cut off your nose to spite your face comes to mind. I've said enough. 

Some drivers on the grid instill real FEAR in others..Cut off your nose to spite your face comes to mind. I've said enough

[pRy]

My bet that Red Bull again playing with fire trying something illegal. Tires are fine, just deal with it.

 

Isn't that ignoring Alonso also suffered a rear tyre failure today? Also that Caterham that spun on the same corner Vettel suffered his failure looked suspect to me. Not sure if they've found a failed tyre there too. 

[JeePee]

"Pirelli motorsport boss Paul Hembery says two tyre failures in P2 in Spa is "a worry for the sport". Says something on track damaging tyres."

 

Tarmac.

[Risil]

That was the 2010 football World Cup to be fair. And it was shit.

 

 

It's hard to say what's going on at a technical or political level but the fact that a couple of punctures on Friday leads to talk of FIA guarantees, boycotts and senior drivers openly doubting Pirelli's explanations says it all. I think we're in F1's most serious crisis since the mid 1990s.

[Babak]

I'm afraid this is a technical incompetence on Pirelli's part. This many tire failures is simply unacceptable. Tires aren't supposed to give up so easily. What is this "debris" talk all about Paul? Before Pirelli came, there too, was lots of debris on the track; yet I don't seem to recall such ridiculous tire failures. Tires are supposed to withstand quite a lot of abuse and adverse conditions.

[Anderis]

Why oh why can't we have tyres that can be RACED on??? If the FIA want the teams to have to stop twice then simply write it into the rules "Every driver must stop twice during every race". How difficult is it?

It's not the point to have teams stopping twice. The point is to have drivers with different level of tyre wearing at the same time.

[redreni]

Why oh why can't we have tyres that can be RACED on??? If the FIA want the teams to have to stop twice then simply write it into the rules "Every driver must stop twice during every race". How difficult is it?
If the tyres did not dictate when the drivers had to stop there would be a lot more options for pure racing strategy as in driver one could stop early while driver two could pit as late as possible.

Because the target for Pirelli to ensure there are at least two pitstops is not there just for the sake of having pitstops, the point is to avoid processions by ensuring there is degradation. Degradation produces differences in strategy and and promotes late-race overtaking opportunities as cars on different strategies end up together on the race track with differently worn tyres.

It‘s also not a case of F1 asking for crap tyres and getting them - it is perfectly possible to have high deg tyres that degrade to the point where you would want to change them before they fail. Nobody asked for exploding tyres.

[Deluxx]

I thought FOM was the one who tells pirelli how to make their tires?

So why is FOM(and fans) dumping responsibility on Pirelli for the cheese tires?

[Tenmantaylor]

[sock22]

Instead of just mindlessly criticising Pirelli I think it's worth looking at these failures a bit more closely. Firstly, they are not the same as before. They are punctures, not delaminations. I assume this is simply down to the new construction, which fails in a different way. What I find more interesting, however, is the picture at the top of this BBC article showing Vettel's damaged tyre. http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/23816972

 

You can clearly see the tear down the inside edge. As Hembery said (http://www.autosport...t.php/id/109407) "It looks on the Red Bull as though something has been rubbing on the surface and then has just cut through the surface"; "[On the Red Bull] something has got caught up between the floor and the tyre." Could this be Red Bull running an extreme set up? Or just something loose in the rear bodywork that has rubbed the tyre? Hembery has been quick to distinguish Red Bull's failure from the other problems.

 

As for those other problems, there's a lot of the same weak phrases such as 'cut on the tyre' and 'debris on the track'. So far, there has only been one other puncture, on Alonso, so I am willing to hold judgment. By the way, this picture shows van der Garde did not have a puncture (https://pbs.twimg.co...EZcwd.jpg:large).

 

There are two things I'm looking at tomorrow. First, Red Bull; do they have a repeat failure, or does any other team have a similar failure with the rubbing on the inside edge which cuts. Second, are there any other failures of the more familiar type. If there are, then that would suggest more worrying problems. Let's hope it doesn't happen.

[Tenmantaylor]

The tear down the inside edge doesn't mean it was the car rubbing on the tyre. This would be easily provable by checking the car for damage and Red Bull have suggested nothing of the sort. It could have been the outside edge failed causing unnatural stress to the inside which then subsequently failed. Or the temps and stresses were even on the weak points of the shoulder of the shitly designed Pirelli tyre they failed simultaneously. The loads sustained in the Pouhon double left hander section (the highest sustained G on the track) suggests to me the tyre gave way. Vettel was also running a very low downforce setup (for Red Bull at least, infact it's the first time I recall Vettel topping a speed trap http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html) which would more than likely increase the slip and tyre temps of the RR in these corners compared to Webber's higher DF setup. Combine this with the fact that even though the Pouhon sector is a corner where much time can be gained or lost, more time is still spent in right handers over the course of Spa's clockwise lap meaning the cambers and susp will be setup to favour the right handers over left handers. Vettel was also on high fuel at the time. All these factors would put extra strain on the RR tyre. Doesn't bode well for the race.

 

305kph at Spa in an F1 car. Rubbish. 

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 23 August 2013 - 22:30.

[Szoelloe]

I thought FOM was the one who tells pirelli how to make their tires?

So why is FOM(and fans) dumping responsibility on Pirelli for the cheese tires?

what?

[wj_gibson]

And who will write a guarantee that Adrian won't slit someone when he is drunk?

 

What colour is that herring?

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

FOM don't tell Pirelli how to make their tyres. FOM are basically the commercial arm of the sport, not the rule makers. Also, there's a difference between tyres that degrade/wear out quickly, and tyres that are unsafe. Tyres can degrade/wear out quickly but still be safe.........