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Indycar Grand Prix of Sonoma


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Poll: Deep Thoughts (19 member(s) have cast votes)

Which One Describes What You're Thinking?

  1. Why Not Sato? (9 votes [39.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 39.13%

  2. Why Not Natto? (3 votes [13.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.04%

  3. Why Natto Sato? (5 votes [21.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.74%

  4. What's Natto? (6 votes [26.09%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.09%

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#251 Prost1997T

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:21

There's red markers on the ground, they should really be painted all the way across though. As for Dixon's opinion - I don't think it was deliberate by the Penske crewman, Scott just didn't leave enough of a margin to get around the box.



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#252 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:21

Was Dixon stopped too deep in his own pit?  If both were stopped were they should've been, then I struggle to see how any car could drive around any other car in front of it.  It definitely looked close, and Dixon would've run over the rear tire guy if he were still changing the tire.



#253 911

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:22

That's what I'm thinking. What Barfield says makes sense, but only if there are clear and distinct pit boxes. He says IndyCar doesn't paint their own lines on pit road, so if it's just a sign on the wall it seems kinda vague. Apparently there are hash marks on the ground?

 

I think because of this admission by Barfield, they should have lessened the severity of the penalty, IMO.  But, what's done is done.  I'm glad no one was seriously injured.



#254 expert

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:24

and Dixon would've run over the rear tire guy if he were still changing the tire.

 

Not true.



#255 Lada Lover

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:25

NBC guys are awesome. they are not letting BB's explanation be the final word. Congrats Will Power. Not his fault there was not a good ending to the race.  



#256 Prost1997T

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:36

Not sure I like the way the NBCSN team approached the interviews, on the other hand I don't like Dixon's response either. Mike Hull had the right attitude here.



#257 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:37

Anyone see this/know more?

 

]BSjOwQDCEAA4k7W.jpg



#258 Risil

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:39

Did Marco pull a move on Castroneves on one of the restarts?

There was one caught by a replay where Helio got squeezed on both sides and miraculously kept going straight but I can't remember who else was involved there.


Edited by Risil, 25 August 2013 - 23:40.


#259 greenman

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:41

Did Marco pull a move on Castroneves on one of the restarts?

There was one caught by a replay where Helio got squeezed on both sides and miraculously kept going straight but I can't remember who else was involved there.

Marco was def the one on the outside. Haven't seen enough to say if he was at fault though...



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#260 Prost1997T

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:43

Marco tapped Power's car at the restart (Marco claimed he was brake-checked). Penske was already annoyed about the pit incident and responded personally.



#261 SR388

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:43

Anyone see this/know more?

 

]BSjOwQDCEAA4k7W.jpg

 

Andretti needs to learn to keep some pit guys around the drivers after the race.



#262 Risil

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:45

I'm glad they're racing again next week.



#263 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 23:50

And then we have a month until the next races for everyone to get fidgety. 

 

LET EM STEW



#264 HeadFirst

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 00:00

Oh IndyCar .... after 2 races without a single yellow, we are back to bumpercars, re-starts and unfathomable rulings. :stoned:



#265 Prost1997T

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 00:02

Must be a record penalty count.

 

Avoidable contact on track:

 

Bourdais
Briscoe
Kanaan

Davison

Viso

 

Pit lane safety violations:

Viso
Dixon

 

I think that's correct, anyway.



#266 SKL

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:45

I love the Captain getting in Marco's face.... where was Michael???  :)



#267 SKL

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:47

After watching the pit incident over and over, I gotta say the Penske pit man didn't seem to try too hard to get out of the way.  Usually they're running to get out of the pit box.   I was surprised Hull that was cordial- impressed he kept his cool.  I'm sure all those guys play some of kind of games at times, but doing it in the pits seems a little dangerous...



#268 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:04

I'd like to think that Penske organization is smart enough and professional enough not to do something like this on purpose.  Things can easily go wrong in a big way with such games, and exposure can bring very severe consequences inside and outside the sport.



#269 greenman

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 06:43

Screencapped:

 

BQpVRBL.png

 

8xKxABe.png

 

H3uuq4g.png



#270 anbeck

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:12

Sorry, I haven't been able to watch the race.....

 

But the Dixon/Power incident pictured above... is Power's car that far out of his pit box?

 

And how did Luhr do over the race distance? Seeing that his car broke down just short of the flag doesn't say a lot about his performance: did he pick up some pace as the race progressed?



#271 greenman

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:21

The pitboxes are for cup cars. You can see where the pitbox is by the banners on the pitwall.

 

Luhr was pretty anonymous throughout.. Never got the chance to really fall back because of so many yellows...



#272 Andrew Hope

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:37

Sorry, I haven't been able to watch the race.....

 

But the Dixon/Power incident pictured above... is Power's car that far out of his pit box?

 

And how did Luhr do over the race distance? Seeing that his car broke down just short of the flag doesn't say a lot about his performance: did he pick up some pace as the race progressed?

Don't pay any attention to the lines on the ground, they aren't for IndyCar.

 

Luhr seemed to do pretty well for his first race. Passed a few cars on merit, though he did benefit from a number of full-course yellows bunching the field up.



#273 anbeck

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:53

Ok, thanks! I'll watch the race highlights on youtube later on to have a closer look on that incident.



#274 Peat

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:49

Barfield's explanation was legit.......ish.

It's all very well saying you have imaginary lines, but surely it's better if they are, er, visible?
 

What Barfield sees:

opz7gw.png



#275 Risil

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:35

Peat :up:

 

Them NASCAR lines is a menace



#276 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:51

Yeah they confuse your ability to say "that's in his pitbox".

 

Let me post a hypothetical.

 

Let's say Power is just starting his pitstop as Dixon is leaving his. The right rear tire changer would have the new(or just replaced) tire sitting on the ground. Wouldn't Dixon have hit that under 'normal' circumstances?

 

Looking at the rear facing onboard from Power's car, it seems like he'd have only cleared him if there were no people/equipment in that zone.



#277 Lada Lover

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 13:01

Good post Peat, showing the real lines. However, all the cars have to drive through some part of the other teams pitboxes if they want to get into the pits. It's impossible otherwise. And Dixon would have truned the wheel harder if the tireguy or the tire was still in place servicing Power's car. The overall problem was that the tireguy deliberately disrespected the other team and dared to be hit. He was hit and is an idiot.


Edited by Lada Lover, 26 August 2013 - 13:01.


#278 paulb

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 15:21

I don't see how people can say Power's crewmans actions were intentional.  Why would he deliberately put himself in harms way?



#279 Muppetmad

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 15:28

I think it was an unfortunate and fraught situation. I don't think that Power's pit person intended to hinder Dixon's pit exit, but all the same I struggle to see what Dixon could have done differently. I can understand why a penalty was handed down, but I hope the rules are clarified so that if - God forbid, since it's never nice to see someone get hurt - this happens again everyone is clear on what should happen.



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#280 Sardukar

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 15:34

Dixon was 100% at fault, it doesn't matter what the pit crew guys are doing aslong as they are doing it in their pit box. As soon as dixon crosses into powers box the burden of safety falls on him. He didn't leave enough room and ended up hitting someone who wasn't paying attention. Yeah the guy wasn't paying attention, but again its up to the driver who is in less danger and in more control of the situation. He saved maybe a 1/4 of a second by taking such a shallow exit which is not worth the safety risk.



#281 Andrew Hope

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 19:54

I don't see how people can say Power's crewmans actions were intentional.  Why would he deliberately put himself in harms way?

I don't really buy the idea that Penske did it on purpose (though all avenues are worth considering), but I have zero trouble believing that there are people who would do such a thing. I don't think this guy did it intentionally, but I'm sure in a moment of passing stupidity it's totally possible for one guy on a pit crew to come up with that idea all on his own. To be sitting there waiting for his guy to come in, and then realize (clearly without thinking things through) he could do something to screw up the other guy's pit stop if he keeps the wheel in his way or the hose right at the start of his own box. I think in this particular incident, Dixon screwed up and it was made worse by Power's crew not paying attention, but I have no trouble believing some moron could want to be the hero and help his team win the title and lean into the opponent's car in a situation like that, hoping to have the wheel knocked from his hands and a penalty thrown at the other guy. It would be stupid, selfish and very dangerous, but stupid, selfish and dangerous shit happens every single week in race.


Edited by Andrew Hope, 26 August 2013 - 19:55.


#282 Prost1997T

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 20:31

What was the "stupid dangerous shit" at Mid-Ohio? That race was 100% green flag for a reason.

 

With so many 3 and 4-wide restart laps on a track like Sonoma, its surprising the contact was actually 90% people getting tapped into a spin while single file at turn 7, to be honest. The two egregious incidents were Saavedra getting put in the barrier and the pit call we're discussing.



#283 Risil

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 21:10

Holding the traditional Annual "Oh Shit I've Got No Contract, Have To Do Something To Impress Everyone" Race at Sonoma is a mischievous coup on Indycar's part, to say the least.



#284 Prost1997T

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:47

Holding the traditional Annual "Oh Shit I've Got No Contract, Have To Do Something To Impress Everyone" Race at Sonoma is a mischievous coup on Indycar's part, to say the least.

Quite a few teams had already signed drivers for 2014. Vautier for example was signed for 2 years at the start of the season. Speaking of Vautier, that 3-wide at the hairpin was great - it was easy to overlook the good driving because of the Viso™ effect. A shame his old habits are creeping back, as he drove a great race at Toronto only to spoil his reputation again at Mid-Ohio and Sonoma.



#285 Muppetmad

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:29

Pagenaud also did an excellent double overtake on the outside of the hairpin after one of the restarts, I was surprised the commentators didn't pick up on it (although to be fair there was a lot going on at the restarts).



#286 Prost1997T

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 07:39

Pagenaud also did an excellent double overtake on the outside of the hairpin after one of the restarts, I was surprised the commentators didn't pick up on it (although to be fair there was a lot going on at the restarts).

Yeah, too many to list here. The stat about Pagenaud completing a lot of laps is reflected in his good points position - he makes smart decisions on track and I don't recall seeing him ever get a penalty for contact.



#287 maxie

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 07:45

Barfield's explanation was legit.......ish.

It's all very well saying you have imaginary lines, but surely it's better if they are, er, visible?
 

What Barfield sees:

opz7gw.png

 

Great job Peat. I was going to argue on behalf of Dixon that the tire-man was in Dixon's pitbox. Now I know he wasn't. Damn those lines!  :p



#288 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 09:18

Sadly I missed this one. That pit issue seems a bit confusing. Is it that expensive to repaint the lines for the series that's running?



#289 anbeck

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 11:39

And it seems impossible to leave one's own pit box without passing through another box in one way or the other.



#290 sblick

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 12:21

Has to be a way to put tape down or the temporary lines they put on streets that glue down and then can be removed by heat.


Edited by sblick, 27 August 2013 - 12:21.


#291 expert

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 13:09

And it seems impossible to leave one's own pit box without passing through another box in one way or the other.

 

This.  And it clearly didn't happen in 99% of pitstops. As a rule of thumb it's clearly not the only thing used to enforce these rulings - or there'd be a lot more penalties on Sunday.   Watch Power leave his "pit box" seconds afterwards for example.  

 

So, despite what Barfield says, pitbox transgression wasn't the determing factor.  The determing factor was the connection with the tyre being held out by a Penske crew member.  

 

Dixon's only way to avoid hitting that tire was to wait for Power to leave before him.  In hindsight he should have done that, but in the heat of the moment who would?  The irony is a slow pit stop by Ganassi and the incident wouldn't have happened.

 

I think it's only right to question the actions and motivations of the crew member in this cirumstance becuase you have determine where the recklessness lay.  I've seen other circumstances where if a team leaves stuff out for a trailing car to hit when leaving the pits they've got the penalty themselves.  In my opinion, because the rules do not seem to give a clear indication either way, then this is a the equivelent of a "racing incident", very bad luck,  and no one should have got a penalty.  It seemed most people watching it live had the same opinion. 

 

If this was a F1 thread I'm sure someone would have looked up the actual rule book by now... but I'm not even sure IndyCar officials do that  ;)


Edited by expert, 27 August 2013 - 13:12.


#292 anbeck

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 13:24

It seems that in US motorsports having the pit crew jump in and out of the pitlane is regarded as the safest way to handle pit stops. I can see the point that they want to limit the time people are present in the pit lane to the absolute necessary minimum. But it also leads to people jumping and running around quite hectically.

 

I wonder if having pit crews in place when the car arrives and allowing them to just sit there with the used tyres in place until the car is gone, before putting the used tyres and the wheel guns away with all due caution in a more controlled and calm way wouldn't be safer in the end. Or at least mark pit boxes.



#293 greenman

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 14:44

Power made his way around Dixon's crew and was able to hit his marks. Dixon wasn't able to do that (in fact, have you considered the possibilty that he overshot his marks, and made this job a lot harder than it should be?). forget about the tyre man for a minute and watch the pics where Dixon's rear tyre is cutting inches away from where the tyre changer was when Power was being serviced. 

 

Ultimately it's bad luck for Dixon, but when a guy gets hit in the pitlane while being in a spot that is still a part of his driver's pitbox, there's not much you can do...



#294 teejay

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 15:18

Got the race today - pretty crazy - people going all out. 

 

Marco seemed to be an angry beaver and got lucky not to wipe out. 

 

Sorry Dixon, like the guy, but thats his fault 100%



#295 jonpollak

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 19:19

Well its the first time I've tried the new forum on mobile....should i be seeing a big ad every 15-20 posts even though I'm logged in? Especially spammy crap like the adchoices ones on here......bit difficult to scroll when there's big areas of the screen I'd rather not touch :|

                       1goE0py.jpg

 

Jp

(Please use horizontal mobile format to view this 'Advertisement'.)


Edited by jonpollak, 28 August 2013 - 01:26.


#296 biercemountain

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:48

I can't fathom a pit crew member purposefully allowing himself to be hit by an Indy car (much less a team boss ordering him to do so). If I'm wrong, nominate the guy for a Darwin Award cause it's a good path to extinction.  :stoned:

 

As for all those yellows, I really do try to give Indy car drivers the benefit of the doubt but sometimes it just seems like amateur hour on the track. Makes GP2 drivers seem positively gentlemanly  by comparison.



#297 jondoe955

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 14:33

Good work by the NBC guys, on the pit incident. It may have been more instructive to also show us if Dixon's stop, and where he was on his marks. I wish they would have spent some time showing us other RR tire guys, on how they moved, how they carried their tires. I can't believe this guy intentionally put himself and his 'mates in harm's way, but his movements seemed either intentional or careless. This guy knew SD was about to launch, yet he was not even looking. La-dee-daa, not a care in the world. Oh, look - is that a spotted crow over there, picking up popcorn??? IDIOT!

And who has the right of way? Obviously safety is an issue, but it didn't seem to be for this guy. If SD WAS on his marks, then it should be the pit crew's job to stay tight and not get in the way. And NOT carry a tire in that manner.

 

The damage has been done. My suggestion - make the rules clearer, and suspend the tire guy for life. Someone that careless (or devious) has no business playing in the pros. His actions ruined the race, and changed the points for his team. And Power should also have been penalized, for his team's actions. Harsh? So are many of the weird rulings! When the NBC guys first said 'no way', about a penalty for SD, I rolled my eyes. Unfair as it was, you knew they would rule against the driver, and not the pit dope. 

Different times, but the worst pit incident I remember was when Mi Andretti somehow got his pit guy pulled between the rear tire and the sidepod. It was so plainly visible, and horrific, to see this guy feed through this little area. He didn't seem that injured, and there was never a penalty. 

 

I'm not much of a Power fan. I love it when he takes himself out. I think of him as 'deviously dirty'. And always whining about the other guy... But if he is winning, cleanly, good for him. What I hate about his wins? That sissy jump he does off his car. SO embarrassing! I wish he'd grow up.


Edited by jondoe955, 28 August 2013 - 14:38.


#298 biercemountain

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 15:23

That sissy jump he does off his car. SO embarrassing! I wish he'd grow up.

 

I guess he took your advice. No sissy jump in evidence on Sunday.



#299 Prost1997T

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 20:29

As per the Indycar rulebook:

 

7.10. Pit Penalties
7.10.1. The following matters and any others which may be determined by the Race Director are cause for a Car to be penalized:
7.10.1.1. Failing to follow designated procedures entering or exiting the pit area, including the acceleration and deceleration lanes;
7.10.1.2. Leaving the assigned pit with air hoses, fuel hoses, tools or other equipment attached to or hanging from the Car;
7.10.1.3. Car passing over or under any air line or hose or any other equipment;
7.10.1.4. Car contact with pit equipment outside of standard pit stop procedures;
7.10.1.5. Contact with another Car;
7.10.1.6. Contact with personnel;
7.10.1.7. Pit personnel not wearing proper attire as set forth in Rule 1.2.7.2;
7.10.1.8. More than six crew members to be on the Track side of the pit wall during a Race;
7.10.1.9. Car entering a pit other than the Car’s assigned pit.
7.10.1.10. Penalties for violations of this Rule include, but are not limited to, a black flag and/or exclusion from the Event. No such decisions may be protested or appealed.

 

I don't know why people are still debating the penalty - Travis Law did nothing different from previous stops, he wasn't hit by Dixon or any other driver then. The only thing I think the series could have done better in this case is paint the boxes fully (which they are doing from now on). Speaking of pit stops, it's a shame that Kanaan's great run was ruined by a long delay in the pits.


Edited by Prost1997T, 28 August 2013 - 20:30.


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#300 Jim Thurman

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 15:59

First, thanks to Andrew Hope for coming through with the Spotter's Guide...thereby adding, like, actual content :up:

 

Natto (sometimes spelled Nattou for those that are Googling) is delicious.  I'll always ask in a sushi place if they have Natto.  I don't always get it, though, cos it's expensive.

 

Lately I've been experimenting with Tempeh which is different and Indonesian, I believe.

 

For those who don't feel like searching, Natto is fermented soybeans, it's kind of the Vegemite of Japan.

 

I lived in Japan for 5 years growing up. (ages 1-6).

 

:up: I love natto! (of course, I also like the stinky tofu popular in Taiwan). Natto expensive? They're rippin' you off man. It's usu the cheapest 'round these parts. Could be a surcharge for the "clean-up". One local sushi chef refused to make it in a roll because he didn't like what it did to his knives, instead making hand rolls.