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Ferrari F138: The race car Part III


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#1251 V3TT3L

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:07

Domenicali concedes defeat

 

http://www.independe...ip-8865881.html

 

"We know it is almost impossible to win the title, so congratulations to him (Vettel) and to what they (Red Bull) are doing because at the end of the day if they have that (the title) they deserve that."



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#1252 as65p

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:11

But anyway, this is the car thread, and I am afraid that after last weekend, next year cannot come too soon. Blowing the diffusor was the way with the current regulations, and Ferrari has not managed to do it well. 

 

Hope springs eternal, but realistically, what we'll get in this the car thread is lots of complaints not only about Alonsos but also Raikönnens supposed shortcomings. Anything to deflect from the far more real shortcomings of the car.



#1253 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:21

Domenicali concedes defeat

 

http://www.independe...ip-8865881.html

 

"We know it is almost impossible to win the title, so congratulations to him (Vettel) and to what they (Red Bull) are doing because at the end of the day if they have that (the title) they deserve that."

In other news, toasters make toast.



#1254 Shiroo

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:26

when Domenicali will be fired? when Windtunnel will be correct? when they will start as best car in the season and keep the development?



#1255 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:37

when Domenicali will be fired? when Windtunnel will be correct? when they will start as best car in the season and keep the development?

You're a Lotus fan, don't worry about it.

 

Please don't pester us with your mock concern.


Edited by Seanspeed, 08 October 2013 - 16:38.


#1256 Shiroo

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:39

You're a Lotus fan, don't worry about it.

 

I'm, but I wonder how long Ferrari will start on the backfoot. They have one of the best drivers on the grid, and can't make an use of it. Also they will have the strongest pairing next year, if they won't get WCC, then there need to be some changes.



#1257 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:43

I'm, but I wonder how long Ferrari will start on the backfoot. They have one of the best drivers on the grid, and can't make an use of it. Also they will have the strongest pairing next year, if they won't get WCC, then there need to be some changes.

If you'd just posted here for the first time in a long while, this might be more understandable, but you were involved in this same discussion just last page, so I don't know what you're trying to get at this time. 

 

And anyways, people who think that hiring Kimi will suddenly give them a WCC are woefully ignorant of how this sport works.  Obviously the car is the most important aspect. 



#1258 fabr68

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 18:42

Domenicali concedes defeat

http://www.independe...ip-8865881.html

"We know it is almost impossible to win the title, so congratulations to him (Vettel) and to what they (Red Bull) are doing because at the end of the day if they have that (the title) they deserve that."


Unless Vettel DNFs in the next four races and Alonso wins those races there is nothing to conceed or retain. The 2013 F1 season has been over since the summer break.

#1259 caccamolle

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:04

Ma dove? And please caccamolle, it's one thing to express opinion on this forum, it's another to speculate based on personal emotions.
 
Yes, the Ferrari car isn't great at the moment, it's a pony compared to Redbull, but to say that the organization is in disarray, and the enviroment is nasty, cannot be countered with intelligent argument, as there's no proof of that since the poster hasn't revealed a direct source.
 
And there's another fact, yes, Ferrari had a terrible Korean GP, Massa is probably the car's true pace, but earlier in the season RB were in the same up and down boat, it's just that now Redbull have developed a better car, and credit goes to them, it's not Ferrari suddenly getting all emotional and petty that the engineers are no longer focussing on their jobs. It's their careers, their bread and milk, it's just that in a sport that needs millions of Dollars to find that millimeter on a wing to make the car go faster, Redbull has beaten us fair and sqaure, but not because Ferrari is in mess (aside the wind tunnel disaster.)
 
Also to claim that a billion Dollar company hires Kimi to solve qualifying, is very naive, because as I said before, Ferrari knows a faster car is what solves qualifying.
 
And finally, kindly, please, as one Ferrari fan to another, don't tell me what I can express or not to what opposes your views. You've got a lovely history on this thread doing what you accused me of.
 
Peace, and always forza Ferrari.


Ah ah ah ... Speculate based upon personal what ? Emotions ? Mamma mia, May be troppo vino lately ;) ? Did it escape your emotions that Ferrari under SD has achieved nothing except for deterioration ? I am only suggesting here, not trying to be rude. May be, Ferrari fan to Ferrari fan, we have vastly opposing views on what should be expected of a F1 team that we both call Ferrari. May be you are happy being 2nd, or 5th or 6th, year after year, then ok, basta, conversation ends.

Peace.

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#1260 Tron

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:43

Ah ah ah ... Speculate based upon personal what ? Emotions ? Mamma mia, May be troppo vino lately ;) ? Did it escape your emotions that Ferrari under SD has achieved nothing except for deterioration ? I am only suggesting here, not trying to be rude. May be, Ferrari fan to Ferrari fan, we have vastly opposing views on what should be expected of a F1 team that we both call Ferrari. May be you are happy being 2nd, or 5th or 6th, year after year, then ok, basta, conversation ends.

Peace.

 

from now on, I need a glass or two when visiting this thread.  ;)

 

And not really, I've clearly blamed in previous posts all of Ferrari for slipping behind with each season, and often typed that second place is the first loser.

 

Still, lets wait and see for next year, which will be the make or break, as clearly with Alison and Kimi on board, it's a sign Ferrari is changing it's structure and aiming to constantly win.

 

If it fails horribly to dip below this year, I'll too join the horde demanding total revamp in management, but 2014, already last year by signing Byrne, was always their target, and Kimi didn't join for money, he joined because he knows there'll be a good car waiting for him.

 

So I hope, and will continue to do so.

 

I only expect Ferrari to win, but in any sport, there's only one winner and many losers, and those are tough odds and sometimes we need to concede others have done a better job and it's time to up our game.


Edited by Tron, 09 October 2013 - 07:58.


#1261 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:21

The criticism of Ferrari to not having developed the Sauber/RB/Lotus exhaust design is beyond laughable. Sauber gets one(maybe two for Monza) result and people act like its a top car and blame Ferrari for not taking the same route. Sauber started the ramp last year and got away from it, obviously because they found better gains using the McLaren style. They even designed this years car with the MaCa style only to reintroduce the ramp at the YDT and Hungary.

Last year McLaren finished the season with the quickest car and they never adopted the ramp. There's so much more to it than saying if Ferrari used the ramp like a few others the car would be much better. And it's honestly damn near asinine to criticize them for not doing it, one because they can hardly get small incremental updates to work yet many in here want them to change almost the entire philosophy of the car and it's aerodynamics. That would work out real well eh?

Furthermore, because Sauber were strong in one race Ferrari should be doing what they're doing? :lol:
Sauber were nowhere in Hungary with their new exhaust, nowhere in Belgium, decent Quali on improving track in Monza but nowhere close to same pace in race, nowhere in Singapore either. But hey, they were damn good in Singapore so Ferrari should switch... This makes zero sense from all types of different angles.

#1262 Tron

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:27

The criticism of Ferrari to not having developed the Sauber/RB/Lotus exhaust design is beyond laughable. Sauber gets one(maybe two for Monza) result and people act like its a top car and blame Ferrari for not taking the same route. Sauber started the ramp last year and got away from it, obviously because they found better gains using the McLaren style. They even designed this years car with the MaCa style only to reintroduce the ramp at the YDT and Hungary.

Last year McLaren finished the season with the quickest car and they never adopted the ramp. There's so much more to it than saying if Ferrari used the ramp like a few others the car would be much better. And it's honestly damn near asinine to criticize them for not doing it, one because they can hardly get small incremental updates to work yet many in here want them to change almost the entire philosophy of the car and it's aerodynamics. That would work out real well eh?

Furthermore, because Sauber were strong in one race Ferrari should be doing what they're doing? :lol:
Sauber were nowhere in Hungary with their new exhaust, nowhere in Belgium, decent Quali on improving track in Monza but nowhere close to same pace in race, nowhere in Singapore either. But hey, they were damn good in Singapore so Ferrari should switch... This makes zero sense from all types of different angles.

 

You're forgetting people only judge a team/driver by their last race.

 

Watch, Alonso wins in Japan, Perez comes second, and suddenly Merc and Button will be hanged by the forums.   ;)


Edited by Tron, 08 October 2013 - 20:28.


#1263 FirstWatt

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:05

The criticism of Ferrari to not having developed the Sauber/RB/Lotus exhaust design is beyond laughable. [...]

As it seems that your nice comment is directed to me, some remarks:

 

1. Sauber clearly improved in the last races on very different tracks, with a car that seemed to have hit it's development barrier mid July. It has also been stated by Hülkenberg, that since Spa he has a much better feeling (although the results didn't come immediately). You'd better analyze more closely how Sauber made progress since summer break, how far from pole time Hülkenberg was before and after the change, how they performed on different circuit types before and after. Or you may analyze the traction out of the corners in Korea relative to Mercedes or Ferrari despite not running high downforce. This is not a one - off, either you have good traction and it is a virtue, or you have not. They had bad traction earlier in the year. They improved because they can run more rake, therefore were able to soften the rear suspension, which helped traction.

You'd come to the conclusion that they improved remarkably.

 

2. Of course, changing the exhaust configuration is not to just do it and then you have it done. Its tricky, and without testing, it's certainly difficult to optimize blowing angles etc. That's why we did not see that Sauber made a performance step already in Hungary.

 

3. It's not mandatory that a ramp exhaust give good results, but RB and Sauber clearly demonstrated in 2012 that it's a good solution, and Lotus in 2013 has it shown too in medium to high downforce circuits. It doesn't help in all performance related aspects, but it seems that rear downforce at low/medium speeds is improved.

Do you think that Sauber with their limited budget would spend time and money in changing "almost the entire philosophy of the car and it's aerodynamics" if they didn't expect a better performance?

 

Just for reference, my "asinine" post which triggered this discussion:

 

I wonder why Ferrari, after more than 1.5 years, never tried the exhaust configuration of RB, Lotus and Sauber 2012 and 2013 since late summer.

Looking at Sauber, it clearly proved a huge advantage regarding traction, and we could see this in Korea. They made a big step forward, and they have a Ferrari engine.

 

Is that some "engineering proud", something like "not invented here" syndrom? I really don't think, but why we never got to see it?

 

Maybe you or someone other could care and give an answer without throwing words like laughable and asinine?

 

F138, and I state it again, failed to achieve the goals. There were a lot of updates, but with no positive effect to the relative performance. Obviously, F138 hit a barrier, as did the 2012 car after the huge step in Barcelona last year.

Therefore I really wonder why we never saw something radical. RB changed it's approach early in 2012, made quite huge changes, ran pretty different cars.

 

So why not Ferrari?


Edited by FirstWatt, 09 October 2013 - 07:20.


#1264 Massa

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:12

Ferrari did the same last year.

 

Anyway, i don't understand why Ferrari would have choose the ramp while the Mclaren route was the best last year, while the car was the fastest until Barcelona this year.

 

And like Crucial said, the updates with the Mclaren route didn't work from Spain to now, and you want Ferrari change completely the design of the car for testing the ramp ?

 

Ferrari have a lot of ressource but they can't manufacture a car with a new philosophy just for testing. Sauber change again to the ramp because they had use this desing before. We are not in the Todt era where Ferrari could have take for a race 2 different cars, this era is finished.

 

Me too i would love to see Ferrari with a ramp, but each config have his downside. The ramp give more traction but you loss more power. The Mclaren route less traction but you loss less power than the ramp.

 


Therefore I really wonder why we never saw something radical. RB changed it's approach early in 2012, made quite huge changes, ran pretty different cars.

 

So why not Ferrari?


Edited by Massa, 09 October 2013 - 09:19.


#1265 Shiroo

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:31

If you'd just posted here for the first time in a long while, this might be more understandable, but you were involved in this same discussion just last page, so I don't know what you're trying to get at this time. 

 

And anyways, people who think that hiring Kimi will suddenly give them a WCC are woefully ignorant of how this sport works.  Obviously the car is the most important aspect. 

 

And I'm saying this mate. They will have the best pairing on the grid, only a total POS car will deny them a WCC. And what will be then the excuse? "Brace yourself, keep calm". Geez, maybe even not as Ferrari fan, I admire Alonso determination. But he is dragging this team for some time already, maybe it is the time already, that the engineers etc. will be on the level of their start driver? Through whole season including a development



#1266 V3TT3L

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:51

The fact is RB copied the Sauber concept from last year.

Adrian Newey is the best and still was rumble enough to adopt another designer concept.

 

I really don't know why Ferrari haven't considered this option or why Alonso never asked to try the Sauber, since they share the same drivetrain and rear suspension picj-up points [aprox. same geometry].



#1267 ArkZ

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:14

I read somewhere during the Pre-season test that one team (Williams or Torro Rosso) which run both exhaust version said that the one with ramp give more df in slow stuff while the other one is better in high speed. The reason why Ferrari never tried version with ramp might be caused by sidepods, all of the cars which did run ramp version has a smooth round sidepods while, Ferraris not ,so maybe in the end the team would have to redesign whole sidepods area so they decided to stick with current solution.


Edited by ArkZ, 09 October 2013 - 13:15.


#1268 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:36

And I'm saying this mate. They will have the best pairing on the grid, only a total POS car will deny them a WCC. And what will be then the excuse? "Brace yourself, keep calm". Geez, maybe even not as Ferrari fan, I admire Alonso determination. But he is dragging this team for some time already, maybe it is the time already, that the engineers etc. will be on the level of their start driver? Through whole season including a development

Ferrari's problems in fighting for the WCC is entirely car-related.  Felipe has been a major contributor towards TWO constructor's championships for Ferrari in the past. 

 

If nothing improves on the car front, the only thing bringing Kimi in will help, WCC-wise, is securing 2nd place.  You need more than two good drivers.  Look at Mercedes. 


Edited by Seanspeed, 09 October 2013 - 13:38.


#1269 vista

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:01

Very interesting article about the upcoming year where Pat Fry talks about the fuel-saving factor:

 

http://formula1.ferr...short-long-term



#1270 kosmos

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:08

I don't know if it was said before but Fernando is going to test the 2014 car in the simulator after Abu Dhabi.



#1271 fabr68

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:26

The fact is RB copied the Sauber concept from last year.
Adrian Newey is the best and still was rumble enough to adopt another designer concept.

I really don't know why Ferrari haven't considered this option or why Alonso never asked to try the Sauber, since they share the same drivetrain and rear suspension picj-up points [aprox. same geometry].


When you have means to correlate designs on paper with the real world (well calibrated windttunnel or test track time) you can copy anything and make it work.

When you are restricted from using your test track and the only tools available are limited it does not matter what you copy it will not work.
You are then forced to use designs that are feasible based on the tools you have to have enough confidence they may work when you hit the track.

Had Ferrari been able to use Fiorano, I am fully convinced Alonso and even Massa would be fighting for the WDC. Because you will never hear about updates not working because Ferrari would only bring tested and proven parts to the GPs.

#1272 Enzoluis

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:30

The criticism of Ferrari to not having developed the Sauber/RB/Lotus exhaust design is beyond laughable.

 

This year we have nothing to laugh at. Only two victories  and no excuses like in 2011 is a bad year.



#1273 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:40

As it seems that your nice comment is directed to me, some remarks:

1. Sauber clearly improved in the last races on very different tracks, with a car that seemed to have hit it's development barrier mid July. It has also been stated by Hülkenberg, that since Spa he has a much better feeling (although the results didn't come immediately). You'd better analyze more closely how Sauber made progress since summer break, how far from pole time Hülkenberg was before and after the change, how they performed on different circuit types before and after. Or you may analyze the traction out of the corners in Korea relative to Mercedes or Ferrari despite not running high downforce. This is not a one - off, either you have good traction and it is a virtue, or you have not. They had bad traction earlier in the year. They improved because they can run more rake, therefore were able to soften the rear suspension, which helped traction.
You'd come to the conclusion that they improved remarkably.

2. Of course, changing the exhaust configuration is not to just do it and then you have it done. Its tricky, and without testing, it's certainly difficult to optimize blowing angles etc. That's why we did not see that Sauber made a performance step already in Hungary.

3. It's not mandatory that a ramp exhaust give good results, but RB and Sauber clearly demonstrated in 2012 that it's a good solution, and Lotus in 2013 has it shown too in medium to high downforce circuits. It doesn't help in all performance related aspects, but it seems that rear downforce at low/medium speeds is improved.
Do you think that Sauber with their limited budget would spend time and money in changing "almost the entire philosophy of the car and it's aerodynamics" if they didn't expect a better performance?

Just for reference, my "asinine" post which triggered this discussion:


Maybe you or someone other could care and give an answer without throwing words like laughable and asinine?

F138, and I state it again, failed to achieve the goals. There were a lot of updates, but with no positive effect to the relative performance. Obviously, F138 hit a barrier, as did the 2012 car after the huge step in Barcelona last year.
Therefore I really wonder why we never saw something radical. RB changed it's approach early in 2012, made quite huge changes, ran pretty different cars.

So why not Ferrari?

My comment wasn't directed at you only the general idea. Firstly people act like Sauber only just worked on and introduced the ramp at the YDT but that's not the case. They were the first ones with the ramp and then ditched it in favor of the MaCa style. They even launched their car this year with the MaCa style. Therefore they've been working on the ramp for damn near two years, which points the the limited budget you cited. 2 years yet people think Ferrari should just slap it on and go.. Not too smart.

Again, at the end of last year the McLaren was the quickest car so Ferrari weren't necessarily wrong when deciding not to switch to the ramp. It just amazes me how many in here in the past few days say oh Ferrari should switch to the ramp like Sauber/RB/Lotus yet these are the same who are all over the team(good reason) when small updates arent working. Small updates aren't working yet people think Ferrari can completely change the cars aerodynamics and think that that big of a change will work as planned? That's crazy.

As for Sauber, they re-introduced the ramp at Hungary. They haven't done shit since then except have a decent Quali at Monza and a decent result at Korea. You speak of better traction out of corners for Sauber, but I didn't see any in Singapore. Nor Monza during the race. Yes they did a great job in Korea but as Hulk said, they were punching above their weight. Sorry but I don't think one decent result warrants a huge change with the car. Also keeping in mind this is a development they've been trying to get right for almost two years now. Quite a long time to get right, so one isn't out of line when not agreeing Ferrari should go the same route.

The ramp simply isn't going to work as well on the Ferrari as it does on the Renault powered cars. There is also nothing that proves it's the better solution.


Edit: I wasn't replying to you in my first response, just the general idea of the team changing the exhaust. Nobody who mentioned this change was saying so before Korea, so after one decent result, the bright ideas start flooding in. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful and apologize if I came off that way. My apologies.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 09 October 2013 - 15:45.


#1274 rodlamas

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 16:18

Very interesting article about the upcoming year where Pat Fry talks about the fuel-saving factor:

 

http://formula1.ferr...short-long-term

In other words he is already confirming that the engine is too thirsty for the 100kgs limit.



#1275 rodlamas

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 16:20

When you have means to correlate designs on paper with the real world (well calibrated windttunnel or test track time) you can copy anything and make it work.

When you are restricted from using your test track and the only tools available are limited it does not matter what you copy it will not work.
You are then forced to use designs that are feasible based on the tools you have to have enough confidence they may work when you hit the track.

Had Ferrari been able to use Fiorano, I am fully convinced Alonso and even Massa would be fighting for the WDC. Because you will never hear about updates not working because Ferrari would only bring tested and proven parts to the GPs.

The fact is that if in-season testing was still available, Red Bull would have 3 RB9s and 3 ST8s running 24/7 at A1 Ring testing everything that Newe y was designing and the result would have been about the same.

 

History unfortunatelly puts in-season testing ban together with the ban on big diffusers and complex aero cars, but the fact that in-season testing was banned is just a way for bliding yourself against Newey and his geniousness.



#1276 fabr68

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 16:43

The fact is that if in-season testing was still available, Red Bull would have 3 RB9s and 3 ST8s running 24/7 at A1 Ring testing everything that Newe y was designing and the result would have been about the same.

History unfortunatelly puts in-season testing ban together with the ban on big diffusers and complex aero cars, but the fact that in-season testing was banned is just a way for bliding yourself against Newey and his geniousness.

Fully disagree.

Red Bull claims that 95% of the updates it brings work. For Ferrari my guess would be 30%.

In season testing has the potential for Red Bull to improve 5%, while it is a 70% improvement for Ferrari.

Newey would most likely not use testing if he can use his windtunnel to get same results. Ferrari on the other hand will test at Fiorano day and night until the updates work.

As a Ferrari fan I will give Newey the opportunity to have his cars 5% better in exchange of 70% improvement for Ferrari anytime any day.

Ferrari needs a lot of change. I would start with changing the test restrictions. For as long as they play the game by Red Bull rules, their chances are low.

Inseason testing ban main purpose was to level the field and reduce costs. Guess what, backmarkers are still backmarkers and I am sure tearing and rebuilding windtunnels every year does not come cheap.

Edited by fabr68, 09 October 2013 - 16:45.


#1277 rodlamas

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 17:11

Fully disagree.

Red Bull claims that 95% of the updates it brings work. For Ferrari my guess would be 30%.

In season testing has the potential for Red Bull to improve 5%, while it is a 70% improvement for Ferrari.

Newey would most likely not use testing if he can use his windtunnel to get same results. Ferrari on the other hand will test at Fiorano day and night until the updates work.

As a Ferrari fan I will give Newey the opportunity to have his cars 5% better in exchange of 70% improvement for Ferrari anytime any day.

Ferrari needs a lot of change. I would start with changing the test restrictions. For as long as they play the game by Red Bull rules, their chances are low.

Inseason testing ban main purpose was to level the field and reduce costs. Guess what, backmarkers are still backmarkers and I am sure tearing and rebuilding windtunnels every year does not come cheap.

The same people that made a successfull empirical&testing MO are not there anymore at Ferrari. Also, economy parameters changed a lot on the last few years and I guess is virtually impossible to have the staff Ferrari used to have in 2004 for the winning campaings. In the end, with or without testing, the result would be about the same.

 

And your 30% guess is BS. If it was 95 vs 30, Ferrari should just pour the money on Newey and then claim back all the titles again.



#1278 fabr68

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 18:02

The same people that made a successfull empirical&testing MO are not there anymore at Ferrari. Also, economy parameters changed a lot on the last few years and I guess is virtually impossible to have the staff Ferrari used to have in 2004 for the winning campaings. In the end, with or without testing, the result would be about the same.

And your 30% guess is BS. If it was 95 vs 30, Ferrari should just pour the money on Newey and then claim back all the titles again.


Not BS but a guess based on how Ferrari upgrade packages have performed since Italy.

Newey would not be too successful with poor correlating windtunnel. He may make it happen eventually like he did at Red Bull (took him 3 years, Renault engine upgrades and test restrictions in place).

Three years is too long of a wait when they could get instant improvements by being allowed to use their existing track resourses. They may not need 2004 levels of testing. Maybe half or a third of that may fit the bill.

#1279 Massa

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 21:13

The same people that made a successfull empirical&testing MO are not there anymore at Ferrari.

 

 

No need to Todt, Brawn and co to make that system successfull. Give illimited testing to Marussia and Caterham only and they would dominate the championship.


Edited by Massa, 09 October 2013 - 21:13.


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#1280 RedOne

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 21:46

There is no doubt that Ferrari should have a look at their development practices as it is becoming a trend that they hit a brick wall year in year out...

As for Alonso, LdM has stood by him many a time when he made reference to the car but at some point this had to be discussed with him even if what he says is true. I don't know Alonso so I can't say that I like him but he has been good for Ferrari, very good in fact. But some refuse to see the error in his ways and some downright refuse to acknowledge that Alonso's qualifying performances have taken a dive since about the final third of last season. Just like Ferrari, he is not perfect either.

When Alonso was doing the sky-pad feature with Martin Brundle he says the car has some kind of grip that's there one second then gone the next. It ties in with Martins own comments he said during the race after that feature about how the front wing gives up during a corner causing under steer and while following cars it's just plain under steering all over the place. Seems the cars aero switches on and off and is on a knife edge with the tyres, how anybody expects it to ace 1 lap is beyond me. If Ferrari can produce a car with consistent aero I'm sure Alonso will silence a lot of critics on the bandwagon who point the finger at him.

Edited by RedOne, 09 October 2013 - 21:53.


#1281 Tron

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 21:51

When Alonso was doing the sky-pad feature with Martin Brundle he says the car has some kind of grip that's there one second then gone the next. It ties in with Martins own comments he said during the race after that feature about how the front wing gives up during a corner causing under steer, seems the cars aero switches on and off and is knife edge with the tyres. If Ferrari can produce a car with consistent aero I'm sure Alonso will silence a lot of critics who go straight to blame him and join in on the bandwagon.

 

Sounds like similar to the early problems Ferrari encountered in 2012... ???



#1282 RedOne

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 21:54

Sounds like similar to the early problems Ferrari encountered in 2012... ???


Not just 2012 even longer than that I fear

#1283 RedOne

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 22:14

But anyway next year looks a lot better, a lot of that was related to our wind tunnel and CFD not being up to scratch. Its why I can't wait for people to see that ALO can also outperform a car on saturdays not just Sundays, I still remember he's dry pole in Singapore 2010 and he's crucial third at Abu Dhabi that year. He just needs a car that's there or thereabouts, and most importantly is predictable, so he knows what it will do next then he can squeeze those extra tenths out of it.

Edited by RedOne, 10 October 2013 - 02:21.


#1284 JSDSKI

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 22:33

I agree.  It's more ongoing correalation problems.   They cannot seem to get a handle on aero - especially where the downforce changes at different speeds.  They cannot smooth out those changes.  They just cannot seem to get it where the drivers are comfortable and really trust the car. Maybe it is an advantage to have Newey actually racing cars... he knows what it feels like when a car doesn't react or move as expected - at the limit.  Whether it's his or the cars limits - he'll know the feeling.  A driver never wants that in a car.   


Edited by JSDSKI, 09 October 2013 - 22:36.


#1285 Tron

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 22:42

But anyway next year looks a lot better, a lot of that was related to our wind tunnel and CFD not being up to scratch. Its why I can't wait for people to see that ALO can also outperform a car on saturdays not just Sundays, I still remember he's dry pole on Singapore 2010 and he's crucial third at Abu Dhabi that year. He just needs a car that's there or thereabouts and most importantly is predictable and he knows what it will do next then he can squeeze an those extra tenths out of it.

 

Totally agree with you. Which is why I'm laughing at those claiming Kimi was hired back to fix the qualifying issue. Kimi was hired to take points from the others, as Ferrari knows the qualifying matter is the car lacking that cold lap pace.

 

Still, if the car does preform, I feel both Kimi and Alonso are going to push each other's driving skills to surpass them. :clap:

 

There's nothing hungrier than two fast drivers wanting to win.



#1286 BorkoF2012

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 23:03

But anyway next year looks a lot better, a lot of that was related to our wind tunnel and CFD not being up to scratch. Its why I can't wait for people to see that ALO can also outperform a car on saturdays not just Sundays

I don't like to say that he outperforms the car. Nobody can outperform the car. He can extract 100% out of the car, and more or less he's been doing that for the last 3 years, starting from Hockenheim 2010.

 

Alonso drove incredibly well last year, he was fantastic with many memorable drives like in Malaysia, Valencia, Germany and India. But I cannot agree with him that it's a miracle they are still in (theoretically) contention for the title with F138. It's not fair to say that. This car was capable to take 40-50 more points but he and the team made too many mistakes. They should have won in Australia, they had the pace but decided not to tell Massa to let him pass, because Alonso had the pace to win and Massa didn't. 7 points were gone. Malaysia, he lost the podium, or maybe even victory, but let's say second place was achievable, 18 points. He activated the DRS in Bahrain after it failed and lost a podium because of that. 15 points. In Monaco people were easily overtaking him, I think 3 drivers overtook him on that day, he could have been 5th instead of 7th. So he lost at least 40 points he could have taken.

 

It's not possible to expect that with this amazingly fast car that Vettel has right now Alonso could have fought for the title, but it would be much better if he is 35-40 points behind him instead of 77.



#1287 caccamolle

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:57

Of course there were mistakes made by FA ! He is not god and you are bound to make mistakes when you are consistently forced to push 101%, when your crap frigging car just cannot qualify decently hence again exposes to huge risks! and again forces to push insanely hard to try and grab a few points...

And btw.
Argh! The race pace my rear dear friends. I hope all understand now that car pace means zero without good qualifying...

Edited by caccamolle, 10 October 2013 - 02:00.


#1288 RedOne

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:19

Totally agree with you. Which is why I'm laughing at those claiming Kimi was hired back to fix the qualifying issue. Kimi was hired to take points from the others, as Ferrari knows the qualifying matter is the car lacking that cold lap pace.

Still, if the car does preform, I feel both Kimi and Alonso are going to push each other's driving skills to surpass them. :clap:

There's nothing hungrier than two fast drivers wanting to win.

Yeah, will be the strongest most exciting line up to watch in 2014!

Edited by RedOne, 10 October 2013 - 02:22.


#1289 RedOne

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:53

I don't like to say that he outperforms the car. Nobody can outperform the car. He can extract 100% out of the car, and more or less he's been doing that for the last 3 years, starting from Hockenheim 2010.
 
Alonso drove incredibly well last year, he was fantastic with many memorable drives like in Malaysia, Valencia, Germany and India. But I cannot agree with him that it's a miracle they are still in (theoretically) contention for the title with F138. It's not fair to say that. This car was capable to take 40-50 more points but he and the team made too many mistakes. They should have won in Australia, they had the pace but decided not to tell Massa to let him pass, because Alonso had the pace to win and Massa didn't. 7 points were gone. Malaysia, he lost the podium, or maybe even victory, but let's say second place was achievable, 18 points. He activated the DRS in Bahrain after it failed and lost a podium because of that. 15 points. In Monaco people were easily overtaking him, I think 3 drivers overtook him on that day, he could have been 5th instead of 7th. So he lost at least 40 points he could have taken.
 
It's not possible to expect that with this amazingly fast car that Vettel has right now Alonso could have fought for the title, but it would be much better if he is 35-40 points behind him instead of 77.


2012 is one of those seasons that will be impossible to repeat because of how the risks fernando took on the track and the rain and the good pitt calls that all fell into place for us at the same time things were falling out of place with our rivals. ALO makes mistakes of course, he can't be perfect, but if you're a slower car fighting with a much quicker one then the slower one is always going to be taking the most risks and therefore making the most mistakes.

Yes Alonso could have been closer if he and the team hadn't made any mistakes but he would still be 40 points behind because unlike last year our rival is capitalising all the time.

Next year we need a different category of car so we can fight for the top positions on merit.

#1290 fabr68

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:14

If you are going to place the blame on Alonso for the DRS mechanical failure then you could argue Vettel could already sealed the championship if he was more careful with the gear box that gave him the DNF. So even if there was zero mistakes the championship would be lost regardless.

All I am saying is counting on miracles, good luck and other teams bad luck is not the way to go. The target should always be to have a car that can win races from pole. If one of the drivers does it and his teammate doest then rant about driver mistakes....

Edited by fabr68, 10 October 2013 - 13:15.


#1291 seahawk

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:29

All teams except Lotus, RBR and Sauber were wrong when assesing the ramp exhaust solution. It took time to get it right, but it offered more potential in the end.



#1292 Seanspeed

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 17:04

All teams except Lotus, RBR and Sauber were wrong when assesing the ramp exhaust solution. It took time to get it right, but it offered more potential in the end.

Solutions have to be seen as part of a package.  There is not always one 'correct/better' way to do something if it doesn't fit with the rest of what the car is doing. 

 

I have no idea where 'the ramp' is in this situation, but seeing as its not been adapted by all teams, I'm guessing its not a universally superior solution.



#1293 Grundle

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 17:27

Solutions have to be seen as part of a package.  There is not always one 'correct/better' way to do something if it doesn't fit with the rest of what the car is doing. 

 

I have no idea where 'the ramp' is in this situation, but seeing as its not been adapted by all teams, I'm guessing its not a universally superior solution.

Good job RB didnt go with Coanda solution. They would have been 3 seconds faster, instead of 2. Of course its the 'whole package' and the exhaust is part of that. If you want to talk 'whole package' what part of ferraris package is worse than RB? Because we can 'guess' and we 'dont know' theres no point in speculating is there? But we can watch the races, and its pretty obvious with our own eyes, Sauber and Lotus are overperforming with their budgets, and Red Bull are off the scale in performance. As a Mercedes fan, I can accept they have failed in this area, you cant seem to accept the same for Ferrari.



#1294 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 20:09

Good job RB didnt go with Coanda solution. They would have been 3 seconds faster, instead of 2. Of course its the 'whole package' and the exhaust is part of that. If you want to talk 'whole package' what part of ferraris package is worse than RB? Because we can 'guess' and we 'dont know' theres no point in speculating is there? But we can watch the races, and its pretty obvious with our own eyes, Sauber and Lotus are overperforming with their budgets, and Red Bull are off the scale in performance. As a Mercedes fan, I can accept they have failed in this area, you cant seem to accept the same for Ferrari.


My goodness, get off of Saubers wank. They have one good race after 13 poor ones and suddenly they're "over performing"? You can't be serious.

We do know what part of RB's overall package is better than Ferrari's, because Ferrari themselves have told us so. Aerodynamics. The RB9 Aero package is miles ahead of the F138. Same as they're miles ahead of other teams.

#1295 Tron

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 20:16

CrucialXtrem, pardon me for going a bit OT. But what do you know of Alonso's possibilities leaving Ferrari already next year?



#1296 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 21:31

CrucialXtrem, pardon me for going a bit OT. But what do you know of Alonso's possibilities leaving Ferrari already next year?


He will stay with Ferrari.


In other new I haven't seen posted yet, Pat Fry has confirmed James Allison is the new Technical Director for SF. In other words, Fry has been demoted. Allison should make a good TD. :up:

#1297 muramasa

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 22:53

Hamashima said they can use alot of the data from last year cos Massa was strong last year here, and expects they will be ok in terms of using option tyres. As for prime tyre it was gone completely after 20+ laps last year so the key will be to make it last as long as possible.



#1298 Enzoluis

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 23:10


 Aerodynamics. The RB9 Aero package is miles ahead of the F138. Same as they're miles ahead of other teams.

 

You were more optimist some weeks ago.



#1299 Enzoluis

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 23:12

He will stay with Ferrari.


In other new I haven't seen posted yet, Pat Fry has confirmed James Allison is the new Technical Director for SF. In other words, Fry has been demoted. Allison should make a good TD. :up:

 

 

SD cutted another head? already?

This do not sound good.



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#1300 Tron

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 00:45

SD cutted another head? already?

This do not sound good.

 

In this case I think it's more like LDM placing someone alonside SD...