Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 8 votes

Ferrari F138: The race car Part III


  • Please log in to reply
2845 replies to this topic

#1351 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,660 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:02

 

Too bad that he starts from the dirty side. The only thing I care now is that we can get points for the WCC, as long as Massa can beat Hamilton and Fernando can beat Rosberg, everything will be fine.



Advertisement

#1352 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,502 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:49

RB will whatever conditions may arise. :D No reason to be nervous for RB-fans. :)

 

I now I am a bit shabby, but I really wish Seb to win all the remainind races. If he does so, everyone will say it was only down to the car. 

 

Strange logic.  :drunk: But good to see that you start supporting Vettel now.  :clap:

 

In qualy, it is now "only" 9 - 6 for Alonso. Let's see whether Massa can translate that into a good race - I reckon we'll have a few cars with similar race pace tomorrow, so it should be interesting.



#1353 Tron

Tron
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:54

It's starting to appear that Alonso is now only giving his 80% during qualify. Or is purposely going soft to showcase Massa to the other teams.

 

It seems he doesn't care anymore... ??? Which is very disappointing if so the case...



#1354 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,660 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:20

It's starting to appear that Alonso is now only giving his 80% during qualify. Or is purposely going soft to showcase Massa to the other teams.

 

It seems he doesn't care anymore... ??? Which is very disappointing if so the case...

 

Really?, maybe the explanation is more easy than throwing % and talking about motivation.

 

Fernando Alonso @alo_oficial 51m

Not an easy weekend so far, I have not managed to adapt at 100%! Tomorrow need to improve and help the team with good points! #forzaferrari


Edited by kosmos, 12 October 2013 - 10:22.


#1355 ArkZ

ArkZ
  • Member

  • 551 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:30

It's starting to appear that Alonso is now only giving his 80% during qualify. Or is purposely going soft to showcase Massa to the other teams.

 

It seems he doesn't care anymore... ??? Which is very disappointing if so the case...

No way he's doing this on purpose, him motivation probably in not on the same level like when you fight for the title ofc, but Ferrari still fight for 2nd in WCC and he openly say that.

In recent GP's Alonso has always started weekend from back foot with wrong setup, Massa for comparision is more comfortable with his car. You can read that Alonso often changed his setup between sessions, dunno maybe he's working wrong with simulator or F138 doesn't suit him. For example in official site Fry said that in FP1 Massa tested updates, while Alonso focued on his setup.


Edited by ArkZ, 12 October 2013 - 10:52.


#1356 Tron

Tron
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:47

Well, I hope I'm wrong... But today was easily P3 to P4 for Alonso. Maybe tomorrow he can covert it into a great drive...

 

It's just since Monza, even on race day, I'm not seeing that aggressive bite of his on the corners (Metaphorically speaking).



#1357 BorkoF2012

BorkoF2012
  • Member

  • 827 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:06

I think he is not going to finish the race. I hope I am wrong.



#1358 Enzoluis

Enzoluis
  • Member

  • 984 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:55

He is changing the way the team operates & changing methodologies. With his new role he will continue to do this, pretty much exclusively. Having JA as TD is much more advantageous for good results. Fry is an Engineer but not on the same level as Allison. At the same time, in 2012 he was one of the few Ferrari members that had been in a team operating with newer methods than Ferrari. Obviously when a team is way behind others it takes time for implemented changes to start showing. We can get into particulars if you like or you can keep needlessly taking shots at me. Your choice.

 

Beeing put asid from TD by a new guy, with wich authority PF will continue to implement changes? With th feeling of a failure will he be able to work hard in that way?

I do not agree that for a tem with a good budget the time for catching up new technologies depnds on how far was when he started. It depnds more on the way it dedd to catch up.



#1359 4MEN

4MEN
  • Member

  • 1,556 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:03

Beeing put asid from TD by a new guy, with wich authority PF will continue to implement changes? With th feeling of a failure will he be able to work hard in that way?

I do not agree that for a tem with a good budget the time for catching up new technologies depnds on how far was when he started. It depnds more on the way it dedd to catch up.

I have no idea who are you talking about...



Advertisement

#1360 josepatches

josepatches
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:04

Last year his motivation should be "on top" and Massa was faster in the qualy of the last races too. No excuses. Massa drove well but points on sunday.



#1361 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,280 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:05

TD : Technical director PF : Pat Fry

 

I have no idea who are you talking about...


Edited by Massa, 12 October 2013 - 13:06.


#1362 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,086 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:24

This is the second year in a row where Alonso has faded at the end of the season. It's strange. The same happened in 2007 and I wonder if there are psychological reasons. On the other hand, in 2006 and 2010 he was very strong at the tail end of the season. Alonso is definitely aware of this talk that he is poor in qualifying and I wonder if it's getting to him, that he's putting himself under pressure and making mistakes as a result? The funny thing is, his teammate for next year is also fading away in these last races and being beaten by the no. 2 at Lotus. So much for the theory that Raikkonen will put more pressure on Alonso on Saturday afternoons.



#1363 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,280 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:32

Alonso has faded this year ? Since Belgium three 2nd place, and you say he has faded this year. Seriously mate ?

It's the first time since the summer brake where he was not good enough in Q...

 

I'm not a fan of him, i prefer Massa and Raikkonen for exemple, but he is fighting like hell and when he had one bad result their are so many critics at him.

 

In the race topic they are saying he is not good enough in Q, now you say he is fading, seriously i don't understand. Bar Vettel he is the best this year once again, like in 2010 or 2012. Even in 2011 who was better than him bar Vettel ? Nobody.


Edited by Massa, 12 October 2013 - 13:42.


#1364 BorkoF2012

BorkoF2012
  • Member

  • 827 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:40

Massa has always been know as a good qualifyer. In the second part of 2006 season, when Michael Schumacher needed the championship, he was often unable to outqualify Massa, and 2006 is one of Michael's best seasons. It's only from the time when he was paired with Alonso that people don't think so anymore. Alonso has most probably lost a bit of speed in qualifying, but he has spoiled the people too much, everybody expects him to always be in front of Massa.



#1365 search

search
  • Member

  • 194 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 12 October 2013 - 16:27

can someone translate what Gene said about tomorrow in the video chat today?

 

http://formula1.ferr...arc-gene-suzuka

 

thanks



#1366 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,086 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 12 October 2013 - 16:41

Alonso has faded this year ? Since Belgium three 2nd place, and you say he has faded this year. Seriously mate ?

It's the first time since the summer brake where he was not good enough in Q...

 

I'm not a fan of him, i prefer Massa and Raikkonen for exemple, but he is fighting like hell and when he had one bad result their are so many critics at him.

 

In the race topic they are saying he is not good enough in Q, now you say he is fading, seriously i don't understand. Bar Vettel he is the best this year once again, like in 2010 or 2012. Even in 2011 who was better than him bar Vettel ? Nobody.

 

I agree Alonso has been very good in the races, I'm talking really about qualy. His qualy was bad at the end of last year, and his qualy ratio against Massa is considerably worse this year than in any previous year, if I'm not mistaken?



#1367 vista

vista
  • Member

  • 536 posts
  • Joined: April 13

Posted 12 October 2013 - 16:42

I think there have been some unfair claims about Alonso qualifying badly. But today I was very disappointed with him. As someone already posted, he said so himself that he is "not doing good enough". And  that is a shame as I had really high hopes after a very promising Q1 and Q2.

 

For the race tomorrow, I think Alonso will finish in front of Massa and maybe even on third place. I just hope he does not get stuck behind the the Sauber of Hulkenberg like in Korea. As for Massa, it can be anything. He can totally flop or have a descent race. I am looking forward to the start anyway and will cheer for Mark and - of course - the Ferraris.



#1368 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 601 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 12 October 2013 - 16:46

Massa has always been know as a good qualifyer. In the second part of 2006 season, when Michael Schumacher needed the championship, he was often unable to outqualify Massa, and 2006 is one of Michael's best seasons. It's only from the time when he was paired with Alonso that people don't think so anymore. Alonso has most probably lost a bit of speed in qualifying, but he has spoiled the people too much, everybody expects him to always be in front of Massa.


Of the 54 qualifying sessions in 2006, Michael finished ahead of Massa on 50 of 54 occasions, with the average gap between them at half a second. One of the occasions where Massa managed to beat Schumacher in Q3 was turkey! which occurred because Michael was so much faster than Felipe that they put in around 8 laps of fuel more in his car than they did for Massa. Schumacher made a slight mistake on his lap which gave Massa pole, but fuel corrected Schumacher was light years ahead.

In the end, I believe Michael beat Massa 14-4 in 2006, and the average qualifying position of each was 3.8 vs 6.1.

It's strange how there seems to be a myth that Massa was regularly beating Michael in 2006 because he was nowhere near him especially in qualifying. Given that Michael was long past his 1996-2000 form and he made loads of mistakes in 2006, I'm amazed Felipe even managed to challenge for a title before his accident.

I 100% agree on your point that Alonso has spoiled people by beating Massa so often though. Even on BBC today they laughed a bit afterwards simply because Massa had actually out qualified him. He deserves a bit more respect imo.

#1369 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,086 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 12 October 2013 - 16:46

I think there have been some unfair claims about Alonso qualifying badly. But today I was very disappointed with him. As someone already posted, he said so himself that he is "not doing good enough". And  that is a shame as I had really high hopes after a very promising Q1 and Q2.

 

For the race tomorrow, I think Alonso will finish in front of Massa and maybe even on third place. I just hope he does not get stuck behind the the Sauber of Hulkenberg like in Korea. As for Massa, it can be anything. He can totally flop or have a descent race. I am looking forward to the start anyway and will cheer for Mark and - of course - the Ferraris.

 

If Alonso finishes in front of Massa in the race tomorrow (wouldn't surprise me) the question arises: where would he have finished if he qualified ahead of him, as he used to do almost every week?

Apparently they're 9-6 on qualy this year, and at the end of last year Massa was ahead of Alonso a few times. So in the last 20 or so races they must be almost equal? And I don't think it's because Massa's gotten better . . .

Anyhow, I know this isn't the thread for  driver debate, but it does seem to me Alonso is not maximising the car's potential on a Saturday and that needs to change.



#1370 BorkoF2012

BorkoF2012
  • Member

  • 827 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 12 October 2013 - 16:54

I agree Alonso has been very good in the races, I'm talking really about qualy. His qualy was bad at the end of last year, and his qualy ratio against Massa is considerably worse this year than in any previous year, if I'm not mistaken?

Actually he started to lose ground on Massa in Austin 2012.

 

2010: 15-4

2011: 15-4

2012: 17-3

2013: 9-6



#1371 vista

vista
  • Member

  • 536 posts
  • Joined: April 13

Posted 12 October 2013 - 16:56

If Alonso finishes in front of Massa in the race tomorrow (wouldn't surprise me) the question arises: where would he have finished if he qualified ahead of him, as he used to do almost every week?

Apparently they're 9-6 on qualy this year, and at the end of last year Massa was ahead of Alonso a few times. So in the last 20 or so races they must be almost equal? And I don't think it's because Massa's gotten better . . .

Anyhow, I know this isn't the thread for  driver debate, but it does seem to me Alonso is not maximising the car's potential on a Saturday and that needs to change.

 

Today he didn't, I agree completely. But qualifying higher up would not matter regarding the Bulls - they are just too fast. But Merc and Lotus can certainly be beaten and it would help a great deal if Alonso did better today.



#1372 Arcadi

Arcadi
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 12 October 2013 - 17:01

There might be a lack of motivation on Alonso's side, but I think he's kind of entitled to it.



#1373 krumpli12

krumpli12
  • Member

  • 257 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 12 October 2013 - 17:18

I think it was quite obvious he gave up the championship after Singapore, so I suspect, recent form can be down to some loss of motivation. But I also think, the tires maybe also play some part in the less than stellar Q-s, just as for Kimi's drop in performance. Grosjean said, he couldn't make good qualification laps on the 2013 tires, but got much better with the more conservative 2012/2013 tires. Massa also had some adjustment problems with the tires at the beginning of the season. It seems that Kimi and Fernando adjusted to the 2013 tires better, whereas they have some problems with these hybrid tires. 



#1374 V3TT3L

V3TT3L
  • Member

  • 1,681 posts
  • Joined: November 12

Posted 12 October 2013 - 17:55

What happened with the "We are Ferrari, we never give up, we keep trying until..." mantra ?



#1375 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,280 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:00

Vettel is 4 times WDC now so...



#1376 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,280 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:00

Vettel is 4 times WDC now so...



#1377 CrucialXtreme

CrucialXtreme
  • Member

  • 4,010 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:05

What happened with the "We are Ferrari, we never give up, we keep trying until..." mantra ?

 

No person from the team has said otherwise. The team still isn't giving up.



#1378 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,386 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:32

Alonso could have done better, but I think Massa deserves some credit for doing a great lap, too. 

 

Problem is, I have ZERO confidence in Massa on Sundays. 

 

Does look as if Ferrari has decent race pace, though.  Not great, but enough to fight for 3rd-5th at least, hopefully.



#1379 Tron

Tron
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 12 October 2013 - 23:52

Alonso could have done better, but I think Massa deserves some credit for doing a great lap, too.

 

True. Credit to Massa, but it's frustrating as the pace is there but Alonso couldn't get into the top 4.

I'm so hoping for at least a few more wins this season, and Suzuka as it's a historic track for Ferrari aside from the tears, it's also one that's favours Alonso driving style.

 

I'll be furious if it's a non RB win and Alonso just misses it. 



Advertisement

#1380 e34

e34
  • Member

  • 718 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 13 October 2013 - 00:00

No person from the team has said otherwise. The team still isn't giving up.

 

Domenicali:

"We know it is almost impossible to win the title, so congratulations to him (Vettel) and to what they (Red Bull) are doing because at the end of the day if they have that (the title) they deserve that."

 

It must difficult to be a community manager trying to keep Ferraristas' spirit high. Throwing Pat Fry under the horses, after having highley lauded him, just to make room for the new acquisition, does not make any favour to the credibility of whomever is in charge of managing the interests of Ferrari. The same can be said about the effort to throw doubts about Alonso qualy performance, when he (together with the race team ) has been the only saving grace of the Scuderia during the last years. And seeding the idea that Raikkonen comeback is a brilliant solution to the team problems is a short term (and I would say desperate) fix to undercover the real problem Ferrari has right now. 

 

In this forum people come and go, but there is a hard core of long-term members who have been here long enough to see how a recruitment which was highly praised two years ago is now being brushed under the carpet, in the hope nobody realises. The same can be said about the drivers and race team; they have put the car in places where it did not belong. And yet now we are said, subtly, but repeatedly, that nobody is bigger than Ferrari. 

 

But that begs a question: if Massa is not Ferrari, Alonso is not Ferrari, Pat Fry is not Ferrari, Aldo Costa was not Ferrari... who the hell is Ferrari?



#1381 El_Rápido

El_Rápido
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:14

Ferrari's problems are many, and resting on laurels is one of them. 

 

Witnessing how a single person, namely Stefano Domenicali, is slowly, single-handedly and inadvertently destroying a team like Ferrari by firing, demoting or inviting people to leave the team... all with Luca di Montezemolo's consent... makes me want to burn all my Ferrari shirts and hats.

 

What an idiot!!  

 

What a farce!!



#1382 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,660 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 13 October 2013 - 02:35

There might be a lack of motivation on Alonso's side, but I think he's kind of entitled to it.

 

I remember the same comments after Monaco by some people.



#1383 drag

drag
  • Member

  • 119 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 13 October 2013 - 03:15

But that begs a question: if Massa is not Ferrari, Alonso is not Ferrari, Pat Fry is not Ferrari, Aldo Costa was not Ferrari... who the hell is Ferrari?

 

got to be  Domenicali  :)

 

seriously I think Ferrari must consider sacking of Domenicali, how the things are now 2014 must be his last chance to lead this team to glory.....lets just wait and see what organization he put in to tackle F1 with these new rules coming next year.

 

2009-2013 era is complete failure for Ferrari, forget about fastest car Ferrari was not even second fastest car in any of these past years,and thats way of the target.



#1384 CrucialXtreme

CrucialXtreme
  • Member

  • 4,010 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:04

2 hrs before the GP and the team is changing the KERs on Fernando's car.

 

BWbZc3lIEAA7k3G.jpg

via @Gon_CF



#1385 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,660 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:07

That's weird, as far as I know they didn't reported any problem yesterday :confused:



#1386 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:11

2 hrs before the GP and the team is changing the KERs on Fernando's car.

 

BWbZc3lIEAA7k3G.jpg

via @Gon_CF

 

That must be Fernando's "motivation" that lacked a little during qualy.

 

I read they are doing the same on Vettel's car


Edited by fabr68, 13 October 2013 - 04:11.


#1387 CrucialXtreme

CrucialXtreme
  • Member

  • 4,010 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:13

That's weird, as far as I know they didn't reported any problem yesterday :confused:

 I guess they found something when prepping the car this morning. I assume they'll have it fixed before start time. We'll hear more when broadcasts start.



#1388 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,864 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:42

Disappointing qualifying . Hopefully he can pull a singapore and jump 4 drivers at the start ..

#1389 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,660 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:48

Disappointing qualifying . Hopefully he can pull a singapore and jump 4 drivers at the start ..

 

 

The start is very dangerous, and there is not much space on corner 1, let's keep our expectations in check.



#1390 toofast

toofast
  • Member

  • 463 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:49

I wish they have live garage cam or something. Should be fun watching them fixing things.



#1391 AyrtonSauna

AyrtonSauna
  • Member

  • 426 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:04

The start is very dangerous, and there is not much space on corner 1, let's keep our expectations in check.

 

Fernando has nothing to lose now.That's when he takes more risks than usual.Boring end to the season  with Red Bull gifted another title due to tyre changes but atleast I can look forward to some potential great driving from Alonso even if he doesn't win races.



#1392 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,864 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:45

I am watching the pre-race on RAi right now. Is anyone from Italy watching now? If yes, does anyone know the old guy with sun glasses from ferrari they interviewed just a few minutes ago before Domenicalli and Boullier?
He was saying a lot of things about Alonso and I only grasp a few things ..

Edited by discover23, 13 October 2013 - 05:50.


#1393 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 5,792 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:47

Fernando has nothing to lose now.That's when he takes more risks than usual.Boring end to the season  with Red Bull gifted another title due to tyre changes but atleast I can look forward to some potential great driving from Alonso even if he doesn't win races.

 

Gifted?

 

I don't think that sounds right....



#1394 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,086 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:11

Now we already see the cost of crap qualifying. Massa has the perfect chance to ruin Alonso's race when he should be fighting for the win annd this idiot team is clearly content to let it happen.


Edited by topical, 13 October 2013 - 06:19.


#1395 CrucialXtreme

CrucialXtreme
  • Member

  • 4,010 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:25

Now we already see the cost of crap qualifying. Massa has the perfect chance to ruin Alonso's race when he should be fighting for the win annd this idiot team is clearly content to let it happen.

I think if team tell him to let ALO pass he should. You're absolutely correct this is proof of what poor quali does to a race. If Fer would have qualified better, this wouldn't be an issue.



#1396 redbarron

redbarron
  • Member

  • 299 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:37

The one race Vettel is struggling and not leading the race and Ferrari decide not to use team orders. What is wrong with them?



#1397 CrucialXtreme

CrucialXtreme
  • Member

  • 4,010 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:40

The one race Vettel is struggling and not leading the race and Ferrari decide not to use team orders. What is wrong with them?

I believe they did mate, Felipe just ignored them.



#1398 sheepgobba

sheepgobba
  • Member

  • 1,092 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:42

I believe they did mate, Felipe just ignored them.

 

Was there any radio messages sent to Felipe?  



#1399 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,086 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:44

Ferrari also should have covered Hulkenberg, who is once again ruining Alonso's race and will pit earlier than him to keep the place.I don't think they are deliberately working against Alonso, but clearly they are indifferent to him now.



Advertisement

#1400 redbarron

redbarron
  • Member

  • 299 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:46

If they had of let Alonso through early then they could have covered Hulkenburg. Now they are screwed!