1497 replies to this topic

[Ferrari2183]

If Alonso's sponsorship deal with Fiat goes through for his cycling team then I believe he will see out his contract at Ferrari.

I've grown quite fond of him and would hate to see him leave Ferrari.

[oetzi]

My 2 pennies.

 

I don't think Alonso's a particularly strong or weak qualifier. I'd back him to do better over a race distance than a lap every time.

 

Which is a good thing, before anyone gets aerated.

 

It may not match perfectly with the philosophy at Ferrari, though. 

[oetzi]

I've grown quite fond of him 

 

He's the first Ferrari driver I've found no excuse to warm to.

 

I admire his ability, but that's it.

[sennafan24]

My 2 pennies.

 

I don't think Alonso's a particularly strong or weak qualifier. I'd back him to do better over a race distance than a lap every time.

I agree on this, in comparison to the other top say 5 drivers in F1, Alonso is middling in the qualifying department. Lewis and Vettel would both out qualify him head to head today in my opinion.

 

Alonso's main strength is race pace, and he is bloody great at that. 

[hoohar]

Alonso hasn't been able to string the sectors together in Q3 for some time now. It started towards the latter end of last year and has continued into this year.

I've seen him post better sectors in Q2 than he does in Q3.

 

If you claim this you should post the specific examples of this, and of course compare it to the other top drivers. I strongly suspect you are totally wrong and exaggerating because it's something you want to believe. No driver is perfect in Q3 and strings together perfect sectors every time. Even Vettel has clearly thrown away poles at Monaco and Hungary from two visibly scrappy laps and it's not the first time, but  because his cars are so fast this is ignored and instead Alonso is picked on because his car is struggling to get inside the top 5. Its amazing that the driver by far the best qualifying record in the refuelling era is having his qualifying ability questioned, but its sort of normal for Alonso to never get the credit he deserves.

 

 

When you think about it, Webbers claims of Alonso needing to be pushed more are ridiculous. His target is not beating Massa, it is beating the Redbulls and Mercedes, so he is already 100% motivated by the desire to beat them and win the championship, regardless of how fast his team mate is. Even if he did not have a team mate it would make no difference.

 

I am amazed this thread is even open. There is not a single credible source that Alonso that is possibly leaving Ferrari before 2016, so what is the point of this other than to give a platform for ridiculous rumour mongering.

Edited by hoohar, 17 September 2013 - 03:01.

[hoohar]

 
It's interesting to look at Ferrari's record pre-Alonso and compare.

2000: WDC, WCC
2001: WDC, WCC
2002: WDC, WCC
2003: WDC, WCC
2004: WDC, WCC
2005: neither
2006: neither
2007: WDC, WCC
2008: WCC
2009: neither

Alonso joins

2010: neither
2011: neither
2012: neither

All this despite an in-built 0.6s per lap advantage.

The problem with Alonso is he is very good for Alonso. He is less good for a team...

 

I assume that is why he is the highest paid driver in the sport, and why Ferrari paying him 30million a year? 

[Oho]

I assume that is why he is the highest paid driver in the sport, and why Ferrari paying him 30million a year? 

Well considering Ferrari's financial sense regarding driver pay checks, after all they just rehired a driver whom they paid kings ransom not to drive for them, the size of his pay check is hardly compelling evidence of his extraordinary value.

 

But you said it so much better yourself:

 

hoohar, on 17 Sept 2013 - 05:47, said:

Lets see. Ferrari have replaced Massa with the driver he beat, who is lazier, less of a team player, and are paying him about 4 times as much. Clearly a great decision
 
 
The decision is clearly quite poor and shows Ferrari have been tricked into misjudging the drivers once again. I guess they will learn the hard way.

Edited by Oho, 17 September 2013 - 06:54.

[e34]

If you claim this you should post the specific examples of this, and of course compare it to the other top drivers. I strongly suspect you are totally wrong and exaggerating because it's something you want to believe. No driver is perfect in Q3 and strings together perfect sectors every time. Even Vettel has clearly thrown away poles at Monaco and Hungary from two visibly scrappy laps and it's not the first time, but  because his cars are so fast this is ignored and instead Alonso is picked on because his car is struggling to get inside the top 5. Its amazing that the driver by far the best qualifying record in the refuelling era is having his qualifying ability questioned, but its sort of normal for Alonso to never get the credit he deserves.

 

 

When you think about it, Webbers claims of Alonso needing to be pushed more are ridiculous. His target is not beating Massa, it is beating the Redbulls and Mercedes, so he is already 100% motivated by the desire to beat them and win the championship, regardless of how fast his team mate is. Even if he did not have a team mate it would make no difference.

 

 

 

IMHO, the origin of all this "Alonso is not qualifying the car up where it belongs", combined with the recent "Alonso is not as technical savvy as he thinks" can only be insiders at Ferrari. When I say insiders I mean not so much people in the know (although they sure know more than we do) but people belonging to the team, who happen to be on opposite sides to Alonso. 

 

I believe it is relatively clear that Alonso has been prioritising race pace to qualy pace for a long time now. Last year around Austin GP, Pat Fry said something about Alonso not doing a good job at qualy. That came after a series of GPs where Alonso said that the car has not improved a iota, while Massa kept improving his qualy results. 

 

Since then I have had the feeling that Alonso is fighting against the development team of Ferrari, in the sense that the development team tries to improve qualy pace, and every improvement achieved is used by Alonso to set up the car more radically for the race. 

 

I think it is plausible to think that Fry and co. believe that their work would be seen in a more favourable light if Alonso didn't prioritise so much race pace at the expense of qualy pace and that this conflict is the reason of the muted battle that has taken place inside Ferrari. 

 

In which, IMO, Alonso has been thoroughly beaten. Which, by the way, is not the same as being proven wrong. 

[wj_gibson]

The Mercedes has been a great qualifying car this year.

 

Which tells us what we need to know about the value of qualifying pace in a series that has opted to make overtaking more straightforward than at any time since about 1978.

 

It doesn't really matter that Alonso has been qualifying on the third and fourth rows, he's been finishing 2nd more often than not. And that's as good as it['s going to get for Ferrari at the minute unless someone is seriously going to argue that if Alonso had only qualified 2nd at Spa, Monza, Montreal, etc (or, more to the point, those final six races of 2012) then he would have challenged for victory.

 

All I can see in those cases is an unbeatable Red Bull. If Alonso qualifies 2nd at the minute then he's going to finish 2nd.

[rasul]

While I'm sure that Alonso isn't going anywhere(at least this year), only a blind man wouldn't notice that there's a rift between him and LdM.

A couple of years ago, according to him, Schumacher was the best. Then Alonso became the best. Then Alonso was promoted to the best of all time. Very recently Alonso was demoted to "the best in the race." Then he was demoted  to "one of the best." Now according to LdM, there are 4 best drivers: Kimi, Vettel, Alonso, Lewis.   I'm waiting for LdM to pick a new favourite. 

[boldhakka]

The Mercedes has been a great qualifying car this year.
 
Which tells us what we need to know about the value of qualifying pace in a series that has opted to make overtaking more straightforward than at any time since about 1978.
 
It doesn't really matter that Alonso has been qualifying on the third and fourth rows, he's been finishing 2nd more often than not. And that's as good as it['s going to get for Ferrari at the minute unless someone is seriously going to argue that if Alonso had only qualified 2nd at Spa, Monza, Montreal, etc (or, more to the point, those final six races of 2012) then he would have challenged for victory.
 
All I can see in those cases is an unbeatable Red Bull. If Alonso qualifies 2nd at the minute then he's going to finish 2nd.

It is not so simple. Making the RBR work for that win by qualifying higher up has some knock-on effects with regards to dirty air (if the Ferrari's great starts get it ahead by first corner), reliability, pressure (driver and pit crew) and mistakes, etc.

[bonjon1979a]

The Mercedes has been a great qualifying car this year.

 

Which tells us what we need to know about the value of qualifying pace in a series that has opted to make overtaking more straightforward than at any time since about 1978.

 

It doesn't really matter that Alonso has been qualifying on the third and fourth rows, he's been finishing 2nd more often than not. And that's as good as it['s going to get for Ferrari at the minute unless someone is seriously going to argue that if Alonso had only qualified 2nd at Spa, Monza, Montreal, etc (or, more to the point, those final six races of 2012) then he would have challenged for victory.

 

All I can see in those cases is an unbeatable Red Bull. If Alonso qualifies 2nd at the minute then he's going to finish 2nd.

Not true. Alonso has finished 2nd 4 out of 12 races. He's finished 2nd or better 6 out of twelve races though but if you look at his other results he's been hurt badly by his qualifying position. Alonso's done a good job in the race this year and you can't help feel that he'd be doing even better if the car had been able to qualify further up the field. It really does matter that Alonso has been qualifying on the third and fourth row, it's the reason why he's no longer in the championship race.

[wj_gibson]

Not true. Alonso has finished 2nd 4 out of 12 races. He's finished 2nd or better 6 out of twelve races though but if you look at his other results he's been hurt badly by his qualifying position. Alonso's done a good job in the race this year and you can't help feel that he'd be doing even better if the car had been able to qualify further up the field. It really does matter that Alonso has been qualifying on the third and fourth row, it's the reason why he's no longer in the championship race.

 

I don't see the logic here, to be honest. He hasn't been getting held up by traffic at the events where he finished lower than 2nd. It's not as if he's been losing chunks of time stuck behind slower cars for inordinate amounts of time at these events. Where possible he's pretty much carved through the cars ahead without too much difficulty. Qualifying down the grid hasn't been actively hurting him. In my view the Ferrari simply struggles to get enough heat into its tyres on empty tanks to deliver one-lap pace and has done since 2011. I really don't think this is Alonso qualifying poorly, I doubt the one-lap pace is in the car at all.

The run of races where Alonso finished well off the lead (Silverstone, Germany and Hungary) appear to have been determined by poor race pace in addition to the deficient one-lap pace. The Ferraris were well off the pace of the Mercs, RBRs and Lotuses (or Lotii(?)) throughout these races and I feel Alonso did very well to come 3rd, 5th and 5th at them to be quite honest. I'm struggling to see how a higher qualifying position would have translated into a higher race finishing position in those cases. More likely this would have been a Merc-liek scenario of qualifying very well and then drifting back down the order as the Mercs did at Spa (qualifying on pole at Spa didn't do Hamilton a great deal of good, for example).

As I said, the DRS has largely negated the disadvantage of qualifying in less than optimal position. The problem is simply that the Red Bull has been a stunning car on both Saturdays and (more to the point) Sundays. This is why Alonso, along with everyone else not called Vettel, is no longer in the championship race.

[fabr68]

Not true. Alonso has finished 2nd 4 out of 12 races. He's finished 2nd or better 6 out of twelve races though but if you look at his other results he's been hurt badly by his qualifying position. Alonso's done a good job in the race this year and you can't help feel that he'd be doing even better if the car had been able to qualify further up the field. It really does matter that Alonso has been qualifying on the third and fourth row, it's the reason why he's no longer in the championship race.

Yes. Like Alonso in qualyfying, Hamilton has lost out for not being to manage his racing and be fast during the race even though he started ahead on the grid. That is why he is more out of the championship race than Alonso.

It works both ways you know.

[Fontainebleau]

Not true. Alonso has finished 2nd 4 out of 12 races. He's finished 2nd or better 6 out of twelve races though but if you look at his other results he's been hurt badly by his qualifying position. Alonso's done a good job in the race this year and you can't help feel that he'd be doing even better if the car had been able to qualify further up the field. It really does matter that Alonso has been qualifying on the third and fourth row, it's the reason why he's no longer in the championship race.

Not quite.

 

- In Malaysia the Ferraris qualified 2nd and 3rd, and Alonso DNF because of his crash with Vettel

- In Bahrain he qualified 3rd but had issues with his DRS

 

That leaves Monaco, Great Britain, Germany and Hungary as races in which Alonso ended below 2nd and you could see some impact from his qualy position. In those races he was 8, 3, 4 and 5th. But in Hungary both Webber and Raikkonen ended up ahead despite qualifying behind Alonso, so we cannot really blame his qualy position, and in Germany he ended up behind Vettel and the two Lotus, that were very strong in that race.

 

We could question if he would have improved his positions had he qualified better in Monaco and Great Britain; the former is obvious, the latter he was on the podium and lost 10 points to the winner.

 

So I think that while we can say that his qualy positions could have been better and would have improved his results, we cannot say that they are not the reason he is no longer in the championship race (in fact, I don't think that we can say that he is no longer in the championship race at all!). He has been losing to Vettel at an average of 4.4 points per race, but their performances on Sundays have been in my opinion the main reason for such difference.

[EvanRainer]

I don't understand why some seem to have a hard time accepting or taking it as an insult that Alonso is maybe not the best qualifier, when Alonso HIMSELF has said so. (and that his strength lies at being good overall and at everything but not the absolute best at any one thing)

[DrivenF1]

# Driver Average

1 Button 0.021

2 Hamilton 0.022

3 Vettel 0.031

4 Alonso 0.032

5 Sutil 0.033

6 Hulkenberg 0.033

7 Massa 0.035

8 Vergne 0.059

9 Di Resta 0.067

10 Webber 0.068

11 Rosberg 0.081

12 Raikkonen 0.114

13 Grosjean 0.115

14 Bottas 0.116

15 Maldonado 0.130

16 Gutierrez 0.136

17 Ricciardo 0.148

18 Perez 0.157

 

I agree with you hoohar. This is a table showing how much time on average a driver is losing in their final qualifying session (crunch time) compared to their best sector times set during the entire qualifying session. Alonso is clearly right at the top. It should be noted that Ricciardo and Perez only lost time on a few occasions when they made it to Q3 and therefore didn't need to set hugely fast laps.

 

Gutierrez and Bottas have been the worst qualifiers, both costing themselves places in Q2 on a few occasions.

 

Any way this should clear up any misconceptions that Alonso, Button, Hamilton and Vettel give away time in qualifying when it matters, obviously they do but not as much as others.

 

If you claim this you should post the specific examples of this, and of course compare it to the other top drivers. I strongly suspect you are totally wrong and exaggerating because it's something you want to believe. No driver is perfect in Q3 and strings together perfect sectors every time. Even Vettel has clearly thrown away poles at Monaco and Hungary from two visibly scrappy laps and it's not the first time, but  because his cars are so fast this is ignored and instead Alonso is picked on because his car is struggling to get inside the top 5. Its amazing that the driver by far the best qualifying record in the refuelling era is having his qualifying ability questioned, but its sort of normal for Alonso to never get the credit he deserves.

 

 

Edited by Cult, 18 September 2013 - 19:55.

[fabr68]

I don't understand why some seem to have a hard time accepting or taking it as an insult that Alonso is maybe not the best qualifier, when Alonso HIMSELF has said so. (and that his strength lies at being good overall and at everything but not the absolute best at any one thing)

I dont think anybody argues that. But to give all credit to the car for the race and all the credit to Alonso for qualifying is quite fitting of an agenda.

Maybe there were a couple of times where Alonso made huge mistakes and qualified on third row where with the perfect lap the car could get in second row. However, expecting pole positions is dreamland territory.

Since 2011 Ferrari has a history of not being able to heat the tires to optimum point for one lap shot. A car with colder tires becomes extremely inconsistant so it makes it much easier to make mistakes and much difficult to put a perfect lap together.

[JimiKart]

I don't understand why some seem to have a hard time accepting or taking it as an insult that Alonso is maybe not the best qualifier, when Alonso HIMSELF has said so. (and that his strength lies at being good overall and at everything but not the absolute best at any one thing)

Actually he is clearly the best on race day and that's one important thing, so while you're right that his quali (for whatever reason) isn't stellar, his races almost always are...

[FirstWatt]

[...]This is a table showing how much time on average a driver is losing in their final qualifying session (crunch time) compared to their best sector times set during the entire qualifying session.[....]

Thank you for this statistics. Very interesting and exactly the way I like to look at drivers. Based on numbers where it makes some sense.

You can argue this statistic if applied to 2 or 3 maybe even "not normal" quali sessions, but statistics based on a high number of samples are quite reliable...

[sennafan24]

On the subject of Alonso's qualifying and Ferrari, they talked about it on the F1 Show when I flicked it on early today, and it got me thinking.

 

If Lewis and Vettel, who I consider to be 1 and 2 in one lap pace were in the Ferrari this year, would their one lap pace provide such a difference to Alonso's times that they could stay out of trouble and overtaking early on due to higher grid positions, and therefore get more results out the car?

 

The race pace of the Ferrari has been on par with the Red Bull at some tracks, and it makes me wonder if Lewis and Vettel would flatter the Ferrari more this year. In contrast, I wonder if Alonso could get more out the Mercedes than Lewis/Nico, and I believe Alonso would be the Championship leader if he had the Red Bull, so I am not bashing Alonso.

 

The strain this year could be that the Ferrari car does not make up for Alonso's only very slight weakness.

[prty]

# Driver Average

1 Button 0.021

2 Hamilton 0.022

3 Vettel 0.031

4 Alonso 0.032

5 Sutil 0.033

6 Hulkenberg 0.033

7 Massa 0.035

8 Vergne 0.059

9 Di Resta 0.067

10 Webber 0.068

11 Rosberg 0.081

12 Raikkonen 0.114

13 Grosjean 0.115

14 Bottas 0.116

15 Maldonado 0.130

16 Gutierrez 0.136

17 Ricciardo 0.148

18 Perez 0.157

 

I agree with you hoohar. This is a table showing how much time on average a driver is losing in their final qualifying session (crunch time) compared to their best sector times set during the entire qualifying session. Alonso is clearly right at the top.

 

[discover23]

so Lewis and Button are the the two drivers who nail their laps all of the time in Q3.. followed by Vettel and Alonso. - interesting stats. Thanks for posting.

[Darrenj]

my three sense

Alonso has lost the edge.. sooo close for so long, now reduced to putting make on a pig this season

 

Kimi is great, but not for Ferrari...That was shown before at Ferrari

,. I want Kimi to win the WDC in a Ferrari... but I see other hurdles there next year. More internal squaff

Vettel or Hammilton will walk away with it next year... 

[Artkab2013]

# Driver Average

1 Button 0.021

2 Hamilton 0.022

3 Vettel 0.031

4 Alonso 0.032

5 Sutil 0.033

6 Hulkenberg 0.033

7 Massa 0.035

8 Vergne 0.059

9 Di Resta 0.067

10 Webber 0.068

11 Rosberg 0.081

12 Raikkonen 0.114

13 Grosjean 0.115

14 Bottas 0.116

15 Maldonado 0.130

16 Gutierrez 0.136

17 Ricciardo 0.148

18 Perez 0.157

 

I agree with you hoohar. This is a table showing how much time on average a driver is losing in their final qualifying session (crunch time) compared to their best sector times set during the entire qualifying session. Alonso is clearly right at the top. It should be noted that Ricciardo and Perez only lost time on a few occasions when they made it to Q3 and therefore didn't need to set hugely fast laps.

 

Gutierrez and Bottas have been the worst qualifiers, both costing themselves places in Q2 on a few occasions.

 

Any way this should clear up any misconceptions that Alonso, Button, Hamilton and Vettel give away time in qualifying when it matters, obviously they do but not as much as others.

You realise that during qualie track improves and guys who stucked in Q2 obviosly show best sectors on the last fast lap? Not to mention this guys has less attemps. And Button is better qualifier of all. 

Edited by Artkab2013, 18 September 2013 - 22:22.

[rasul]

You realise that during qualie track improves and guys who stucked in Q2 obviosly show best sectors on the last fast lap? Not to mention this guys has less attemps. And Button is better qualifier of all. 

Yes, the fact that Button is the best qualifier shows how we shouldn't trust such "facts." Some drivers just push harder for the limit and sometimes have scrappy laps because of that, which distorts the "facts," while others don't push nearly as hard and set the same stable, predictable times. It doesn't mean at all that the latter drivers are getting the most out of the car.

 

According to these "facts," Vergne must be destroying  Ricciardo in qualifying. Right.

Edited by rasul, 18 September 2013 - 23:54.

[Avastrol]

All that these facts say is that the ones on the top of the list lose the least time compared to his 'ideal, optimal' time (which is all best sectors strung together), while the ones on the bottom lose the most. The rest is up to interpretation.

 

Interesting to see the Lotus boys being near the bottom, posting near identical losses. Kimi in particular, too. That said it would be nice to see the raw data (fastest sectors in particular) so we can play around with it.

[Cool Beans]

 

Take it easy with the dancing. One rainy Q3 session adds 10 seconds to everybody's overall season Q3 times, seeing how everybody's lost time in Q3 according to this table it looks like it could simply be a lumped together average with a freak session counted in there. Would be interesting to see the numbers.

Edited by Cool Beans, 19 September 2013 - 00:35.

[Avastrol]

Take it easy with the dancing. One rainy Q3 session adds 10 seconds to everybody's overall season Q3 times, seeing how everybody's lost time in Q3 according to this table it looks like it could simply be a lumped together average with a freak session counted in there. Would be interesting to see the numbers.

 

If I'm reading it correctly, it's Q3 time minus aggregate best sectors (regardless whether it came from Q1, 2 or 3) and not Q3 minus Q2, so the end result will always be a time loss.

 

Though you're right that a rainy Q session will muddy the data

[SophieB]

Enough about Alonso's qualifying!

 

Folks,

 

Believe it or not, we don't actually enjoy closing threads. If there's a topic people want to discuss, provided it's within the rules, you can go hog wild. However, this thread is following the usual pattern of any thread that involves a driver. A specific incident gives rise to a valid thread. Fine. The discussion of the actual incident is exhausted and the scope is widened a bit, in this case to discuss whether or not Fernando Alonso is mad at his team and that this in turn may lead to him leaving. Eh, sure why not. Now, in the absence of any new incidents about that, we're back to just discussing Alonso in general. And then periodically, as here, a mod is summoned because it's turned into a driver thread, and also because it's annoying for people who see there are new posts and figure something might have happened that's relevant to the thread title. And then there is the decision to make about whether to prune it back, warn you to get back on-topic or just close it down.

 

This time I'm going to just give a general warning to get back on topic. I suggest that if there's nothing to be said that's on topic, that the thread just be left until there is. Or it will be closed.

 

Discussion as ever (if needed) by PM, please.

[DrivenF1]

Personally I think Ferrari and Alonso make a great team; Alonso's clearly shown, for the last couple of years, that he really excels in dragging a troubled car to great results. For Alonso he'd only want to leave if he had a chance to drive for the best car in the field e.g. Red Bull in '10, '11 or '13 scope. There would be a lot of issues in moving. First there's a backlash from Ferrari fans which will make life uncomfortable plus with his high salary and high maintenance personality many other teams would consider twice before hiring Alonso (even though I rate him as the most complete driver in the field).

 

From Ferrari's side, they know that only Vettel, Hamilton and potentially Raikkonen can offer themselves as a replacement to Alonso. Ferrari need a top driver especially when competing against the very talented Red Bull, Mercedes and McLaren teams. Pretty obviously Alonso and Ferrari won't part company until at least 2015, depending on how events play out next year with him and Raikkonen. I personally suspect he'll stay there a bit more long-term although who knows.

 

P.S. Just a quick clarification about the data I posted, it only included the six fully dry qualifying sessions up to Hungary this year. I included the last lap if it was Q1, Q2 or Q3, it wasn't worth including the Marussia's or Caterham's as they mostly have Q1 appearances. Even still Gutierrez never nailed his best three sectors in his quickest run in any Q1 session. I'm also glad that some people realise the data wasn't designed to measure absolute speed but about getting the best out of yourself on your most important lap. This doesn't mean Button is the fastest qualifier.

 

The point of the data was to respond to one poster who claimed Alonso always seems to lose time in Q3 compared to Q2, this is evidence that it's not true. Also note if you remove the laps Ricciardo and Perez set which were in Q3 and where they couldn't improve their positions, they turn out 5th and 10th respectively. One final interesting point, the most costly errors this year were Raikkonen in Bahrain when he made an error in Q3 losing himself 3 places and in Hungary where Vettel lost pole because of a scrappy final lap leaving over one tenth on the table. Bottas has also cost himself a Q2 place on two occasions.

 

If anyone wants to discuss the data further, please give me a PM (and not reply in the thread).

[artista]

In today's Autosport Magazine, there are a couple of articles -Alesi and Huges- that might be of interest regarding this thread's topic. No one of the articles suggest Alonso is on his way out of Ferrari, but they seem pretty sure the honeymoon is really over (not a surprise) and they go a bit deeper in why they think it is that way. One can agree or not with what's written but they are good company to read with a nice cup of coffee (or tea)

[as65p]

In today's Autosport Magazine, there are a couple of articles -Alesi and Huges- that might be of interest regarding this thread's topic. No one of the articles suggest Alonso is on his way out of Ferrari, but they seem pretty sure the honeymoon is really over (not a surprise) and they go a bit deeper in why they think it is that way. One can agree or not with what's written but they are good company to read with a nice cup of coffee (or tea)

 

I think in many ways the current atmosphere in Maranello resembles the end of  the last century. Back then Montezemolo was also getting desperate, even trying to replace Jean Todt at one point, which IIRC was prevented only by Schumacher threatening to leave with him.

 

Currently I sense the same kind of desperation. I guess only success would brush it all over, otherwise it will get nastier bit by bit.

[rasul]

Personally I think Ferrari and Alonso make a great team; Alonso's clearly shown, for the last couple of years, that he really excels in dragging a troubled car to great results. For Alonso he'd only want to leave if he had a chance to drive for the best car in the field e.g. Red Bull in '10, '11 or '13 scope. There would be a lot of issues in moving. First there's a backlash from Ferrari fans which will make life uncomfortable plus with his high salary and high maintenance personality many other teams would consider twice before hiring Alonso (even though I rate him as the most complete driver in the field).

 

From Ferrari's side, they know that only Vettel, Hamilton and potentially Raikkonen can offer themselves as a replacement to Alonso. Ferrari need a top driver especially when competing against the very talented Red Bull, Mercedes and McLaren teams. Pretty obviously Alonso and Ferrari won't part company until at least 2015, depending on how events play out next year with him and Raikkonen. I personally suspect he'll stay there a bit more long-term although who knows.

 

P.S. Just a quick clarification about the data I posted, it only included the six fully dry qualifying sessions up to Hungary this year. I included the last lap if it was Q1, Q2 or Q3, it wasn't worth including the Marussia's or Caterham's as they mostly have Q1 appearances. Even still Gutierrez never nailed his best three sectors in his quickest run in any Q1 session. I'm also glad that some people realise the data wasn't designed to measure absolute speed but about getting the best out of yourself on your most important lap. This doesn't mean Button is the fastest qualifier.

 

The point of the data was to respond to one poster who claimed Alonso always seems to lose time in Q3 compared to Q2, this is evidence that it's not true. Also note if you remove the laps Ricciardo and Perez set which were in Q3 and where they couldn't improve their positions, they turn out 5th and 10th respectively. One final interesting point, the most costly errors this year were Raikkonen in Bahrain when he made an error in Q3 losing himself 3 places and in Hungary where Vettel lost pole because of a scrappy final lap leaving over one tenth on the table. Bottas has also cost himself a Q2 place on two occasions.

 

If anyone wants to discuss the data further, please give me a PM (and not reply in the thread).

That data can't even measure it. I don't want to discuss it further, but I'll just point out that such calculations are very flawed, because you're considering only the raw data. You mentioned Raikkonen's costly mistake in Bahrain, but for some reason you aren't mentioning even a more scrappy last lap in Q3 of Alonso, who aborted his last run. Most other drivers set their best times on that last run--as they should--but Alonso aborted his most important run because he made errors. That data doesn't reflect it, because you're considering only the best sector times and the fastest lap. If you disagree, you're welcome to PM me.

 

Back to the topic: I think a lot depends on whether or not Alonso beats Raikkonen. If he does, he will reaffirm his position in the team and is likely to stay longer. If he doesn't, he's very likely to leave. Maybe for another team, or maybe even retire. His relationship with Ferrari definitely isn't the same as it used to be.

[as65p]

 

That data can't even measure it. I don't want to discuss it further...

 

What went wrong?

[rasul]

What went wrong?

Nothing.  I pointed out what I wanted to. There's nothing to discuss, as I'm not pointing out something that is debatable. 

[Tron]

In today's Autosport Magazine, there are a couple of articles -Alesi and Huges- that might be of interest regarding this thread's topic. No one of the articles suggest Alonso is on his way out of Ferrari, but they seem pretty sure the honeymoon is really over (not a surprise) and they go a bit deeper in why they think it is that way. One can agree or not with what's written but they are good company to read with a nice cup of coffee (or tea)

 

I'm also curious of Alesi's view. He appears to have a couple of ears in the Ferrari garage.

 

And yip, the honeymoon is over. Year four, and the Alonso - Ferrari combo has failed to produced even a single WCC, and it's an expensive combo that's racked up costs with a wind tunnel failure and the heads of Dryer and Costa.

 

 

I think in many ways the current atmosphere in Maranello resembles the end of  the last century. Back then Montezemolo was also getting desperate, even trying to replace Jean Todt at one point, which IIRC was prevented only by Schumacher threatening to leave with him.

 

Currently I sense the same kind of desperation. I guess only success would brush it all over, otherwise it will get nastier bit by bit.

 

You said it, desperate. I recall when Alonso was signed, Stefano assured the fans during an interview that the Spaniard would be world champion within three years at Ferrari. So clearly LDM had huge prospects on that, but I don't recall LDM wanting to replace Todt? I remember the media hyping Briatore and the then Juventus management as possibly running Ferrari after Todt's era, but not LDM flairing that?

 

[as65p]

Nothing.  I pointed out what I wanted to. There's nothing to discuss, as I'm not pointing out something that is debatable. 

 

That's, uhm... debatable.

[rasul]

That's, uhm... debatable.

What is debatable? That the data doesn't reflect such driver errors as Alonso's errors in Q3 in Bahrain? 

[as65p]

I'm also curious of Alesi's view. He appears to have a couple of ears in the Ferrari garage.

 

And yip, the honeymoon is over. Year four, and the Alonso - Ferrari combo has failed to produced even a single WCC, and it's an expensive combo that's racked up costs with a wind tunnel failure and the heads of Dryer and Costa.

 

 

 

You said it, desperate. I recall when Alonso was signed, Stefano assured the fans during an interview that the Spaniard would be world champion within three years at Ferrari. So clearly LDM had huge prospects on that, but I don't recall LDM wanting to replace Todt? I remember the media hyping Briatore and the then Juventus management as possibly running Ferrari after Todt's era, but not LDM flairing that?

 

 

It was at the end of 1999,  I think. The situation was somewhat similar with Ferrari just missing out on three possible titles in a row, prompting the same kind of desperation we see now. Who knows how history might have changed if MS had lost again in 2000.

[as65p]

What is debatable? That the data doesn't reflect such driver errors as Alonso's errors in Q3 in Bahrain? 

 

I don't want to discuss this further. And I'm meaning it.

[rasul]

I don't want to discuss this further. And I'm meaning it. 

I'm meaning it, too. And I meant it, as my point wasn't debatable after all.  Cheers. 

[bonjon1979a]

Yes. Like Alonso in qualyfying, Hamilton has lost out for not being to manage his racing and be fast during the race even though he started ahead on the grid. That is why he is more out of the championship race than Alonso.

It works both ways you know.

It's not the drivers, it's the car. As I said, Alonso's been doing a good job, the car isn't good enough in qualifying that's why he's suffered.

[bonjon1979a]

I don't see the logic here, to be honest. He hasn't been getting held up by traffic at the events where he finished lower than 2nd. It's not as if he's been losing chunks of time stuck behind slower cars for inordinate amounts of time at these events. Where possible he's pretty much carved through the cars ahead without too much difficulty. Qualifying down the grid hasn't been actively hurting him. In my view the Ferrari simply struggles to get enough heat into its tyres on empty tanks to deliver one-lap pace and has done since 2011. I really don't think this is Alonso qualifying poorly, I doubt the one-lap pace is in the car at all.

The run of races where Alonso finished well off the lead (Silverstone, Germany and Hungary) appear to have been determined by poor race pace in addition to the deficient one-lap pace. The Ferraris were well off the pace of the Mercs, RBRs and Lotuses (or Lotii(?)) throughout these races and I feel Alonso did very well to come 3rd, 5th and 5th at them to be quite honest. I'm struggling to see how a higher qualifying position would have translated into a higher race finishing position in those cases. More likely this would have been a Merc-liek scenario of qualifying very well and then drifting back down the order as the Mercs did at Spa (qualifying on pole at Spa didn't do Hamilton a great deal of good, for example).

As I said, the DRS has largely negated the disadvantage of qualifying in less than optimal position. The problem is simply that the Red Bull has been a stunning car on both Saturdays and (more to the point) Sundays. This is why Alonso, along with everyone else not called Vettel, is no longer in the championship race.

You don't see the logic, because you're assuming that second place is the best Alonso could've done. It's not about being held up in traffic, it's about being able to beat Vettel which he needs to do to WIN the championship. You're not going to beat vettel from the 3rd or 4th row unless something very strange happens. This isn't about Alonso it's about the car and so while you may console yourself that he's able to 'cut through traffic' this doesn't change the fact that he'll lose time on vettel after 4 or 5 laps if he qualifies 5-8. They're then not able to make up this deficit to win but if you're happy with 2nd places then fair enough, qualifying isn't hurting alonso...

Edited by bonjon1979a, 19 September 2013 - 09:53.

[as65p]

 

I'm meaning it, too. And I meant it, as my point wasn't debatable after all.  Cheers. 

 

 

Every point is debatable, especially those who come with the tag "not debatable."

[wj_gibson]

You don't see the logic, because you're assuming that second place is the best Alonso could've done. It's not about being held up in traffic, it's about being able to beat Vettel which he needs to do to WIN the championship. You're not going to beat vettel from the 3rd or 4th row unless something very strange happens. This isn't about Alonso it's about the car and so while you may console yourself that he's able to 'cut through traffic' this doesn't change the fact that he'll lose time on vettel after 4 or 5 laps if he qualifies 5-8. They're then not able to make up this deficit to win but if you're happy with 2nd places then fair enough, qualifying isn't hurting alonso...

 

My point was simply that they wouldn't be winning even if they were qualifying 2nd. They'd simply be finishing 2nd. Recall India last year - as soon as Alonso got into 2nd place Vettel simply reeled off 2 laps that were a second faster than any of his previous ones. This is my point - I think it essentially impossible for the Ferrari to make up any sort of deficit to the Red Bull.

The worrying thing is that since about August 2012, Vettel has been winning without even pushing the limits of his car, whereas Alonso has been scoring 2nd places whilst pushing at the absolute limit (at least that's how I perceive his efforts).

And I think this the basic source of all the tensions within Ferrari and why we're having a discussion about whether Alonso may be about to leave - because the team management has evidently taken the view that he needs to be pushed, whereas his view appears very much to be that he has pushed all he can and that the car is essentially flawed.

NB It has nothing to do with my being personally happy or unahppy about anything at all.

[bonjon1979a]

My point was simply that they wouldn't be winning even if they were qualifying 2nd. They'd simply be finishing 2nd. Recall India last year - as soon as Alonso got into 2nd place Vettel simply reeled off 2 laps that were a second faster than any of his previous ones. This is my point - I think it essentially impossible for the Ferrari to make up any sort of deficit to the Red Bull.

The worrying thing is that since about August 2012, Vettel has been winning without even pushing the limits of his car, whereas Alonso has been scoring 2nd places whilst pushing at the absolute limit (at least that's how I perceive his efforts).

And I think this the basic source of all the tensions within Ferrari and why we're having a discussion about whether Alonso may be about to leave - because the team management has evidently taken the view that he needs to be pushed, whereas his view appears very much to be that he has pushed all he can and that the car is essentially flawed.

NB It has nothing to do with my being personally happy or unahppy about anything at all.

I don't believe that they would be finishing second if they qualified second. With Ferrari's starts I think Alonso would often be ahead of vettel and we've all seen this year with the Mercs how even a car with race pace that isn't so good can beat the red bulls if they get ahead. Your opinion seems a little blinkered to be honest, and I'm not sure I quite understand why you're so determined that 2nd was the best the car could achieve in those races. I don't think that Ferrari are pushing Alonso out of the team either, it's more that they want two drivers who can bring home a lot of points. Alonso did his bit this year, Felipe didn't. Maybe this was because they opted for the number 1 driver plan and now are changing tactics but personally I just think alonso was quicker than massa.

[Gilles4Ever]

Enough about Alonso's qualifying!

 

Folks,

 

Believe it or not, we don't actually enjoy closing threads. If there's a topic people want to discuss, provided it's within the rules, you can go hog wild. However, this thread is following the usual pattern of any thread that involves a driver. A specific incident gives rise to a valid thread. Fine. The discussion of the actual incident is exhausted and the scope is widened a bit, in this case to discuss whether or not Fernando Alonso is mad at his team and that this in turn may lead to him leaving. Eh, sure why not. Now, in the absence of any new incidents about that, we're back to just discussing Alonso in general. And then periodically, as here, a mod is summoned because it's turned into a driver thread, and also because it's annoying for people who see there are new posts and figure something might have happened that's relevant to the thread title. And then there is the decision to make about whether to prune it back, warn you to get back on-topic or just close it down.

 

This time I'm going to just give a general warning to get back on topic. I suggest that if there's nothing to be said that's on topic, that the thread just be left until there is. Or it will be closed.

 

Discussion as ever (if needed) by PM, please.

Explained very nicely yet some refuse to heed the warnings.