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Vettel, Webber and reliability at Red Bull


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#1 mnmracer

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 15:55

The 2013 Italian Grand Prix marked the fifth race in a row that a Red Bull encountered mechanical issues. Following Vettel's retirement in Silverstone, Webber's horror pitstop in Germany and both drivers' mechanical issues in Hungary, Webber's clutch issues at the start of the Belgian Grand Prix, both Red Bulls suffered gearbox issues at Monza. As this is the last year of the explosive pairing of Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber, I looked through the history books to see how mechanical issues, team orders, and clashes with each other have affected both Red Bull drivers.
 
2009
China: Vettel can only make one run in each qualifying session due to driveshaft problems.
Turkey: Vettel is given the team order not to challenge Webber for 2nd place.
Belgium: Webber had an unsafe release during his pit stop, leading to a drive-through penalty.
Hungary: Vettel retires with suspension faillure.
Europe: Vettel has to make a 2nd stop because of fuel rig problems, and then retires with an engine problem.
Singapore: Webber retires with a brake problem.
Japan: Webber has issues with his headrest, forcing him to make 2 extra pit stops.
 
2009 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 4 issues (3 mechanical issues, 1 team order), 2 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 3 issues (2 mechanical issues, 1 significant pit stop issue), 1 leading to a DNF
 
2010
Bahrain: Vettel loses the lead due to a spark plug failure, dropping him back to 4th.
Bahrain: Webber had a slow pit stop, which lost him a position to Button.
Australia: Vettel retires from the lead due to a brake failure.
Spain: Vettel has brake issues late in the race, which drop him back from second to third place.
Monaco: After Monaco, it is found that Vettel's chassis was cracked.
Turkey: Vettel loses out on pole position due to a broken anti-rollbar.
Turkey: Webber loses the lead after Vettel colides with him.
Canada: Webber had to change his gearbox, leading to a 5-place grid penalty.
Canada: Vettel has gearbox issues during the race.
Europe: Webber drops behind Kovallainen after a slow pit stop
Britain: After a front wing failure left the team with one new spec front wing, Webber was given the old spec.
Germany: Webber had an oil pick-up problem late in the race.
Italy: Vettel's engine shortly died half-way through the race.
Korea: Vettel retires from the lead due to an engine failure.
Brazil: Webber struggles with high engine temperatures in the race.
 
2010 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 8 issues (8 mechanical issues), 2 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 7 issues (3 mechanical issues, 1 team order, 1 team-mate clash, 2 significant pit stop issues), none leading to a DNF
 
2011
Australia: Webber had KERS issues in Q2 and Q3.
Australia: Vettel and Webber had KERS issues during the race.
Australia: Webber had problems with his chassis.
Malaysia: Webber had no KERS in Q3.
Malaysia: Vettel and Webber had KERS issues during the race.
Malaysia: Vettel has brake problems late in the race.
China: Webber qualifies 18th after electrical problems in practice.
China: Vettel has KERS issues during the race.
Spain: Vettel had KERS issues during qualifying.
Spain: Vettel had KERS issues throughout the race.
Monaco: Webber had radio issues shortly before his pit stop, causing a slow stop.
Canada: Webber had KERS issues during qualifying.
Europe: Webber had gearbox issues later in the race, dropping him from 2nd to 3rd.
Britain: A faulty wheelgun at his pit stop drops Vettel from the lead into 2nd place.
Britain: Vettel has KERS issues late in the race.
Britain: Webber was given team-orders not to challenge Vettel, who had KERS issues.
Britain: Vettel was challenged by Webber, who ignored the team orders not to.
Germany: Vettel has brake issues during the race.
Hungary: Webber had no KERS in Q2, which returned in Q3.
Hungary: Webber's DRS failed during Q3.
Hungary: Vettel has brake issues during the race.
Belgium: Webber misses the pit call and had to go for another lap.
Italy: Webber had KERS issues in qualifying.
Singapore: Webber had no DRS during the race, which he believed dropped him from 2nd to 3rd.
Abu Dhabi: Vettel has a tire puncture in turn 1.
Brazil: Vettel has gearbox issues, which drops him from the lead, to finish 2nd.
 
2011 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 12 issues (10 mechanical issues, 1 significant pit stop issue, 1 team-mate clash), 1 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 15 issues (12 mechanical issues, 2 significant pit stop issues, 1 team order), none leading to a DNF
 
2012
Australia: Both Vettel and Webber had KERS issues in qualifying.
Malaysia: Vettel's radio stopped working shortly after the restart.
Bahrain: Webber had no KERS for the first lap.
Spain: Webber is held too long in Q2, making him miss out on Q3.
Spain: Both Vettel and Webber had to have their front wing changed during the race.
Canada: Webber has engine issues early on in the race.
Europe: Webber had DRS issues in qualifying, which left him at the back of the starting grid.
Europe: Vettel retires from the lead due to an alternator failure.
Germany: Webber had to change his gearbox, leading to a 5-place grid penalty.
Hungary: Webber had an issue with his differential.
Belgium: Webber receives a 5-spot grid penalty for a gearbox change.
Italy: Vettel retires with an alternator failure.
India: Webber's KERS issue dropped him from 2nd to 3rd.
Abu Dhabi: Vettel's fuel pump issues in qualifying sent him to the back of the starting grid.
United States: Webber retires with an alternator failure.
Brazil: Vettel's start is affected after Webber ignored instructions not to challenge him.
Brazil: Webber is issued a team order to let Vettel pass.
Brazil: Vettel's radio stops working, leading to wrong tires at the pit stop.
Brazil: Vettel's last change of tires saw a 7.6 second slower pit stop.
 
2012 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 9 issues (7 mechanical issues, 1 team-mate clash, 1 significant pit stop issue), 2 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 12 issues (10 mechanical issues, 1 team orders, 1 significant pit stop issue), 1 leading to a DNF
 
2013
Australia: Webber has ECU/KERS issues for the first part of the race.
Australia: Webber returns in traffic after the front jack failed in the pit stop.
Malaysia: Vettel is given a team order not to challenge Webber half-way through the race.
Malaysia: Vettel is given a team order not to overtake Webber after the final pit stops.
Malaysia: Webber loses the lead after Vettel ignores a team order.
China: Webber lost fuel pressure in Q2.
China: Webber's wheel comes off during the race.
Britain: Vettel retires from the lead with gearbox issues.
Germany: Webber's first pit stop goes disastrous, which puts him back at the end of the field.
Germany: Vettel has KERS issues during the race.
Hungary: Webber has KERS issues during qualifying.
Hungary: Vettel has overheating and KERS issues during the race.
Belgium: Webber has clutch issues at the start of the race.
Italy: Both Vettel and Webber have gearbox issues, which causes them to have to short-shift.
 
2013 half-season score card
Sebastian Vettel: 6 issues (4 mechanical issues, 2 team orders), 1 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 9 issues (6 mechanical issues, 2 significant pit stop issues, 1 team-mate clash), 1 leading to a DNF
 
4.5 year score card
Sebastian Vettel: 39 issues (32 mechanical issues, 3 team order, 2 team-mate clashes, 2 significant pit stop issue), 8 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 45 issues (33 mechanical issues, 3 team orders, 2 team-mate clashes, 7 significant pit stop issues), 3 leading to a DNF

Edited by mnmracer, 09 September 2013 - 19:27.


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#2 rasul

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 16:12

Thanks for taking the time to do this. Very interesting.

Red Bull is certainly not the most reliable car out there. I wonder how many  mechanical issues they are going to have in 2014.



#3 BorkoF2012

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 16:15

Yes, very interesting. Thank you.

 

I would just like to add that Vettel didn't have problems in Italy 2010, he finished fourth, and Webber also retired in 2012



#4 Zava

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 16:20

Yes, very interesting. Thank you.

 

I would just like to add that Vettel didn't have problems in Italy 2010, he finished fourth, and Webber also retired in 2012

I think he meant the temporary power loss during the race, when he (had to) let Webber through.

about the Webber one in '12 I'm not sure, but wasn't his retirement caused by him spinning at the exit of Ascari chicane?

 

 

btw: thanks for the good work again, mnm   ;)


Edited by Zava, 27 August 2013 - 16:21.


#5 KavB

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 16:21

I may be wrong, but didn't Red Bull not use KERS at all on either car during the 2011 Australian Grand Prix?



#6 EthanM

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 16:22

Yes, very interesting. Thank you.

 

I would just like to add that Vettel didn't have problems in Italy 2010, he finished fourth, and Webber also retired in 2012

 

he did have a problem, though post race inspection showed it wasn't the engine that "died", his brakes were "biting" , which felt like loss of power to Vettel (since he was driving 2-3 laps with brakes partially on).



#7 Zava

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 16:24

I may be wrong, but didn't Red Bull not use KERS at all on either car during the 2011 Australian Grand Prix?

indeed. and in the next race, at malaysia, I'm pretty sure Vettel had an intermittently working KERS, and maybe Webber's bad start was also down to KERS failure?



#8 mnmracer

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 16:40

Reworded, updated, etc.

Thanks for the feedback :kiss:



#9 spacekid

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 20:01

Good work! I really hope this will help lay some 'conspiracies' to rest - thought I somehow doubt it.

 

I've been finding Mark's start issues very strange. I don't really understand whats been going on - any thoughts? Is it him, his race engineer/whoever does the set up/just bad luck?



#10 mnmracer

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 20:37

Mark has never been the strongest starter, but when you think of it, a fraction of a second in a Formula One car, already makes a huge difference. If for instance, you are just 0.1 seconds slower in reacting, that is already (75m/s*0.1) three cars lengths when you arrive at turn 1. There's so many aspects to a Formula One start, so losing even a fraction left and right already makes it look huge in terms of positions.



#11 Winter98

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 21:34

Thanks for taking the time to do this. Very interesting.

Red Bull is certainly not the most reliable car out there. I wonder how many  mechanical issues they are going to have in 2014.

 

True, but they seem to have done a great job of achieving a balance between reliability and the need for speed.

 

Much like SV's driving regarding risk and reward.



#12 Njack

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:59

Not counting other drivers costing either driver points and horrible strategy calls?

 

I submit:

 

2009 Australia - Webber victim of collision at start.

2009 Bahrain - Webber obstructed by Sutil in qualifying, started P18.

2009 Silverstone - Webber obstructed by Raikkonen in Q3 final lap.

2009 Hungary - Vettel has suspension failure.

2009 Italy - Webber hit by Kubica on first lap.

 

2010 Bahrain - Webber has slow pitstop which costs him a place to Button. http://tinyurl.com/phwdtb9

2010 Australia - Red Bulls choice to pit both drivers late in response to Button dropped Webber from 2nd to 5th.

2010 China - Webber run off the track as he, Hamilton and Vettel all take last corner at same time during safety car restart. http://tinyurl.com/q6sf9f5

2010 Europe - Slow pit stop drops Webber behind Kovalinen. http://tinyurl.com/p2k3xxm

2010 Brazil - Webber has high engine temperatures in race. http://tinyurl.com/3244rnm

 

2011 Malaysia - Webber has no KERS in Q3 or race.

2011 Monaco - Pit stuff by RB drops Webber from 4th to 14th.

2011 Canada - Webber punted off at first corner by Hamilton.

2011 Belgium - Radio doesn't work briefly on Webbers car in safety car period, so he missed pitting. http://tinyurl.com/pk9oatj

2011 Korea - Teams pits Webber too early at the final pit stops, leaving him stuck behind Hamilton. http://tinyurl.com/3pt438f

 

2012 Malaysia - Webber held at final pit stop to let other cars through safely, Vettel given a tyre puncture by Karthikeyan.

2012 Spain - Incorrect estimation of Q2 cutoff by RB leaves Webber in garage, costing him Q3.

2012 Canada - Engine issue in the first 10 laps for Webber. http://tinyurl.com/7xgeszr

2012 Belgium - Gearbox Penalty for Webber.

2012 Japan - Webber grosjeaned.

2012 Abu Dhabi - Webber left with nowhere to go when Di Resta and Perez have an accident in front of him.

                             Vettel also had brake issues in FP3.

 

2013 Australia - Webber has no KERS for the first 20 laps.

2013 Monaco - Vettel has KERS failure in FP1.

2013 Canada - Webber has Van De Garde turn in on him while being lapped.


Edited by Njack, 28 August 2013 - 02:04.


#13 bourbon

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:17

Great job!  Seeing it all laid out, it is clear that the conspriacists were mistaken.

 

Njack, if you are going to count that sort of thing, you have to do it more even-handedly.  I think we all know Vettel had more problems of that type than a mere 3 on the year.  You haven't put any of his KERS or start issues, his electrical/radio issues or the failed pit stops (most memorably in Brazil 12) - or the myriad of incidents others caused for him that hindered his forward progress.



#14 fullthrottle

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:12

Mark has never been the strongest starter, but when you think of it, a fraction of a second in a Formula One car, already makes a huge difference. If for instance, you are just 0.1 seconds slower in reacting, that is already (75m/s*0.1) three cars lengths when you arrive at turn 1. There's so many aspects to a Formula One start, so losing even a fraction left and right already makes it look huge in terms of positions.

In this David Coulthard column: Golden era of F1 driving he think the start issue is mostly down to the driver.

 

 

Mark has had a sequence of poor starts going back quite some time and I have to believe he is a factor in that.

Starts are defined by software and driver reaction. That's it. Clutch contamination and preparation are variables but it makes no sense for Red Bull to give Webber a different clutch from Vettel.

 

I remember back in my Formula Three days, Brazilian Rubens Barrichello couldn't start and I could. Same car; same clutch. The only variable was the driver.

When we interviewed Webber before the race, he was already worrying out loud about the potential for a bad start.

 

He was psyched up for it already. Whereas I always believed I was going to have a great start. And I'm sure Alonso is the same; it's no accident that he keeps having brilliant first laps.



#15 BCM

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:35

I did the same thing back in the middle of last year, but only for 2011 and 2012 up to when I originally posted.

 

Webber:

 

Melbourne 2011 - Chassis problems
Malaysia 2011 - KERS issues in the race
China 2011 - KERS failure during qualifying - Didn't get out of Q1
Monaco 2011 - Missed a practice session with gearbox replacement
European 2011 - Gearbox problems towards end of race
Canada 2011 - KERS issue during qualifying.
Hungary 2011 - DRS failure during qualifying. KERS issues as well but came back.
Italian 2011 - KERS issues during qualifying
Singapore 2011 - DRS issue during race
Japanese 2011 - Electrical problem during FP
Melbourne 2012 - KERS failure in Q3
Canada 2012 - Engine hesitation issues during race
European 2012 - DRS failure during qualifying - Didn't get out of Q1
German 2012 - 5 place grid penalty for gearbox change
Hungarian 2012 - Failed differential during race
Belgian 2012 - 5 place grid penalty for gearbox change
India 2012 - KERS problems in the race

 

Vettel:

 

2011 Malaysian - KERS issue second half of the race. Brake problems in last few laps.

2011 China - KERS issues during race.
2011 Spain - KERS issues during quali.
2011 British - KERS problems at some point.
2011 German - brake problems during the race
2011 Hungarian - brake problems during the race
2012 Brazil - Gearbox problems during race
2012 European - Alternator failure during the race
2012 Italian - Alternator failure during the race and during practice.

 

Some different results from what you found.


Edited by BCM, 28 August 2013 - 09:41.


#16 prty

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:52

I did the same thing back in the middle of last year, but only fir 2011 and 2012 up to when I originally posted.

 

Webber:

 

Melbourne 2011 - Chassis problems
Malaysia 2011 - KERS issues in the race
China 2011 - KERS failure during qualifying - Didn't get out of Q1
Monaco 2011 - Missed a practice session with gearbox replacement
European 2011 - Gearbox problems towards end of race
Canada 2011 - KERS issue during qualifying.
Hungary 2011 - DRS failure during qualifying. KERS issues as well but came back.
Italian 2011 - KERS issues during qualifying
Singapore 2011 - DRS issue during race
Japanese 2011 - Electrical problem during FP
Melbourne 2012 - KERS failure in Q3
Canada 2012 - Engine hesitation issues during race
European 2012 - DRS failure during qualifying - Didn't get out of Q1
German 2012 - 5 place grid penalty for gearbox change
Hungarian 2012 - Failed differential during race
Belgian 2012 - 5 place grid penalty for gearbox change
India 2012 - KERS problems in the race

 

Vettel:

 

2011 Malaysian - KERS issue second half of the race. Brake problems in last few laps.

2011 China - KERS issues during race.
2011 Spain - KERS issues during quali.
2011 British - KERS problems at some point.
2011 German - brake problems during the race
2011 Hungarian - brake problems during the race
2012 Brazil - Gearbox problems during race
2012 European - Alternator failure during the race
2012 Italian - Alternator failure during the race and during practice.

 

Different results from what you found.

 

Because unlike him, you don't aim for the result you want to display before compiling the statistics. Therefore you are not forced to include things like "Webber challenged him" as an issue, or magically forget all the issues Webber had at pitstops (7 according to Njack list, and off the top of my head, it doesn't include Monaco 2011, so 8 minimum) and starts (can't be arsed to count them) over these years. Also found this funny, and only noticed it because it happened very recently:

 

 

Hungary: Webber has KERS issues during qualifying.
Hungary: Vettel has overheating and KERS issues during the race.

 

So Webber can't go out into qualifying because his KERS broke, starting 10th. Vettel spends countless laps sniffing the arse of the car in front unable to overtake, in which case every F1 car overheats, and it gets counted as the same problem.

 

It's always the same with his threads, seem like a lot of work because the post is long, but they are heavily skewed but not very valuable and slightly hilarious when you start to look into the statistics used.


Edited by prty, 28 August 2013 - 10:01.


#17 Kelateboy

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:01

Good work! I really hope this will help lay some 'conspiracies' to rest - thought I somehow doubt it.

 

I've been finding Mark's start issues very strange. I don't really understand whats been going on - any thoughts? Is it him, his race engineer/whoever does the set up/just bad luck?

 

I was wondering why Mark Webber did not practice his starts more than just a couple of times at Spa to get the right information pertaining to clutch preparation. The information from practice starts are analyzed overnight by the Control Engineer for the race's clutch preparation. He had 2 pretty bad practice starts during free practices, and I wonder if the lack of information from the practice starts contribute to the clutch issue.

 

If the clutch issue was mechanical in nature, then it should have affected him throughout the race, not just at the start. I am thinking Horner was not telling the whole story and I suspect the clutch issue was probably his Control Engineer's inability to get the perfect clutch bite necessary to prepare for the race start.



#18 Njack

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:01

Great job!  Seeing it all laid out, it is clear that the conspriacists were mistaken.

 

Njack, if you are going to count that sort of thing, you have to do it more even-handedly.  I think we all know Vettel had more problems of that type than a mere 3 on the year.  You haven't put any of his KERS or start issues, his electrical/radio issues or the failed pit stops (most memorably in Brazil 12) - or the myriad of incidents others caused for him that hindered his forward progress.

 

My submissions are meant to be added onto mnmracers.

 

If I've missed anything he hasn't listed feel free to add them.



#19 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 11:30

@Nijack
Since this was an effort in the interteam situation (also partially in response to the conspiracy theorists), I wanted to focuss on issues where the cause was internal: either mechanical, totally messed up pit stops, or clashes with team-mate. Other drivers are included in my annual '200x without misfortune articles'.
 
That said, I very much appreciate your contributions! :up:
I will add them to the article :).


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#20 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 11:57

It's always the same with his threads, seem like a lot of work because the post is long, but they are heavily skewed but not very valuable and slightly hilarious when you start to look into the statistics used.

It's always the same with your responses, seem like a lot of work because the post is long, but are extremely one-sided, incorrect, hold no value and hilarious when you start to look at all the things you ignore to make such an utterly worthless response. If your post wasn't riddled with incorrect statements, I'd bother replying, but I'd end up just refuting every single sentence.


Edited by mnmracer, 28 August 2013 - 12:19.


#21 prty

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:12

It's always the same with your responses, seem like a lot of work because the post is long, but are extremely one-sided, incorrect, hold no value and hilarious when you start to look at all the things you ignore to make such an utterly worthless response.

 

Sure, but in the meantime, the issues at Webber's pit stops are still missing in the opening post :lol:



#22 Thomas99

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:20

Why are you failing to mention Webber's start issues? 



#23 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:20

Sure, but in the meantime, the issues at Webber's pit stops are still missing in the opening post :lol:

As are some of Vettel's issues, but of course you don't notice that. :stoned:  :wave:



#24 prty

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:22

As are some of Vettel's issues, but of course you don't notice that. :stoned:  :wave:

 

Let me guess: all slow pitstops are missing for both.

So it seems the technique is: ignore the kind of issues in which Webber has a higher count, and as they have been ignored for both drivers, try to pass that as fair.



#25 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:23

Why are you failing to mention Webber's start issues? 

Such as which?



#26 Kvothe

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:40

Surely its just meaningless to include the number of issues both drivers have had, without some sort of ranking system (points lost ect) to determine which ones were more costly, and so demonstrate which driver may have been more detrimentally affected by issues. For example an intermittent KERS issue during the race does not have the same impact as a DRS failure in Q1 which prevents the driver from preceding to Q2, likewise an retirement from the lead, does not have the same impact as a start issue. Of course it opens up a subjective can of worms, but merely stating the number of issues both drivers has had doesn't paint an accurate picture of how much each driver was hampered by them.


Edited by Kvothe, 28 August 2013 - 12:40.


#27 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:40

Let me guess: all slow pitstops are missing for both.

So it seems the technique is: ignore the kind of issues in which Webber has a higher count, and as they have been ignored for both drivers, try to pass that as fair.

Let me guess: you have no actual interest in a discussion of any sorts. You just wish to bitch and whine and throw up such a fuss in a pathetic attempt to keep the myth alive that it is just one car that always breaks down at Red Bull, because that is all you care about. Because you believe you can fool people into believing that missing out on a few parts left and there that don't change the actual trend, and relying on the good will of the community to fill this list up to 100%, changes everything. Utterly pathetic.



#28 prty

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:44

Let me guess: you have no actual interest in a discussion of any sorts. You just wish to bitch and whine and throw up such a fuss in a pathetic attempt to keep the myth alive that it is just one car that always breaks down at Red Bull, because that is all you care about. Because you believe you can fool people into believing that missing out on a few parts left and there that don't change the actual trend, and relying on the good will of the community to fill this list up to 100%, changes everything. Utterly pathetic.

 

Yet so far it's you the one who is getting personal without providing any kind of data when the stats are being challenged. Let's hope that the people only read the opening post then, that might fool a couple of them :D



#29 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:54

Surely its just meaningless to include the number of issues both drivers have had, without some sort of ranking system (points lost ect) to determine which ones were more costly, and so demonstrate which driver may have been more detrimentally affected by issues. For example an intermittent KERS issue during the race does not have the same impact as a DRS failure in Q1 which prevents the driver from preceding to Q2, likewise an retirement from the lead, does not have the same impact as a start issue. Of course it opens up a subjective can of worms, but merely stating the number of issues both drivers has had doesn't paint an accurate picture of how much each driver was hampered by them.

I agree, but I usually have those covered in my annual '200x without misfortune' articles. For now, I went for the least worms and just wanted to produce an overview. It also makes it much easier to crowd-correct.



#30 Kvothe

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:59

Your raison d'etra was:

 

 

The 2013 Belgian Grand Prix marked the fourth race in a row that a Red Bull encountered mechanical issues. Following Vettel's retirement in Silverstone, Webber's horror pitstop in Germany and both drivers' mechanical issues in Hungary, Webber had clutch issues at the start of the Belgian Grand Prix. As this is the last year of the explosive pairing of Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber, I looked through the history books to see how mechanical issues, team orders, and clashes with each other have affected both Red Bull drivers.

 

 

 

 
 
2011:
Britain: Vettel was challenged by Webber, who ignored the team orders not to.
 
2013
Malaysia: Vettel is given a team order not to challenge Webber half-way through the race.
Malaysia: Vettel is given a team order not to overtake Webber after the final pit stops.
 
 

 

 

First of all I'm curious as to why you think ignored team orders, that had no impact are included as issues alongside mechanical failures? The cynic in me suggests increasing a certain someone's tally count

 

But ignoring that you state Britain 2011 as an example of an issue for Vettel, with Vettel being challenged by Webber, but it had no impact on his race or his finishing position, so why is it included in the list of issues Vettel has...very suspect. Next is Malaysia 2013 which had no impact on Vettel as Vettel overtook anyway, but you've not just included it once but included it twice.

 

I can see the (very) tenuous argument, as to why team orders, and ignoring team orders should be included, but when they've had no impact on either positions or points why are they included? It only serves to further distort a picture that was very shaky in the beginning.



#31 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:00

Yet so far it's you the one who is getting personal without providing any kind of data when the stats are being challenged. Let's hope that the people only read the opening post then, that might fool a couple of them :D

You seem to have some problems with your vocabulary. Calling it like it is, is something different from 'getting personal'. Also, what? What data should I provide? I don't challenge any of the serious challenges, and your whining and bitching that is woefully incorrect, is not worth anyone's time. How about you get your facts straight and then try and make a decent point. I don't know if you've ever heard of fact-checking, though I have a feeling I can answer that, but I'm first going to double-check all the added entries. Your pathetic attempts to make it seem like the gest of the article will change, is incorrect and you know it.



#32 Kvothe

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:04

I agree, but I usually have those covered in my annual '200x without misfortune' articles. For now, I went for the least worms and just wanted to produce an overview. It also makes it much easier to crowd-correct.

 

Fair enough, but the overview you present without any context could be argued to be slightly misleading.



#33 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:05

Your raison d'etra was:

 

 

 

First of all I'm curious as to why you think ignored team orders, that had no impact are included as issues alongside mechanical failures? The cynic in me suggests increasing a certain someone's tally count

 

But ignoring that you state Britain 2011 as an example of an issue for Vettel, with Vettel being challenged by Webber, but it had no impact on his race or his finishing position, so why is it included in the list of issues Vettel has...very suspect. Next is Malaysia 2013 which had no impact on Vettel as Vettel overtook anyway, but you've not just included it once but included it twice.

 

I can see the (very) tenuous argument, as to why team orders, and ignoring team orders should be included, but when they've had no impact on either positions or points why are they included? It only serves to further distort a picture that was very shaky in the beginning.

That is why I add them up separately at the end ;-) 

One has to set out a set of borders somewhere, and I outlined this article how I believe it is fairest and easiest to read. 

 

Malaysia 2013, there were two team orders. One when Hamilton was breathing down Vettel's neck, and the 'multi 21' at the end.



#34 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:06

Fair enough, but the overview you present without any context could be argued to be slightly misleading.

I know, but since I'm already arguing with two sides with just what's on the table, I think this is the best middle grounds as is :)

Most Webber fans acknowledge that Vettel has lost a shit ton of points, more so than Webber, but they also argue that that's just because Webber never had a chance to get out in front because "he constantly has smaller issues". I think this clearly shows that is not the case, and whether in the end Vettel has 5 more issues or Webber has 5 more issues, they both have roughly the same amount of issues.


Edited by mnmracer, 28 August 2013 - 13:08.


#35 Thomas99

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:07

Such as which?

 

Silverstone, dropped to 12th from 3rd.

 

Nearly won regardless. Would have almost certainly won without that start.



#36 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:11

Silverstone, dropped to 12th from 3rd.

 

Nearly won regardless. Would have almost certainly won without that start.

Nearly won because of Vettel and Hamilton ;-) 

But was that a mechanical issue? From what I heard, it was just a driver ****-up. I'll happily include it if you can provide a good source though.


Edited by mnmracer, 28 August 2013 - 13:12.


#37 Kvothe

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:15

That is why I add them up separately at the end ;-) 

One has to set out a set of borders somewhere, and I outlined this article how I believe it is fairest and easiest to read. 

 

Malaysia 2013, there were two team orders. One when Hamilton was breathing down Vettel's neck, and the 'multi 21' at the end.

You do but even than I would make the distinction between Vettel being affected at the start of Brazil 2012 by Webber ignoring team orders, and him being challenged in Britain 2011, and not being affected, which you haven't done and despite doing that you've still added them up cumulatively, at 33 each.

 

Also in Malaysia was the first one a call for Vettel to hold, or a refusal to move Mark ''too slow'' out of the way?

 

Regardless I personally wouldn't have included any of them; I suspect other individuals will have just as many issues with your selection and methodology as I have had.



#38 prty

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:20

You seem to have some problems with your vocabulary. Calling it like it is, is something different from 'getting personal'. Also, what? What data should I provide? I don't challenge any of the serious challenges, and your whining and bitching that is woefully incorrect, is not worth anyone's time. How about you get your facts straight and then try and make a decent point. I don't know if you've ever heard of fact-checking, though I have a feeling I can answer that, but I'm first going to double-check all the added entries. Your pathetic attempts to make it seem like the gest of the article will change, is incorrect and you know it.

 

Don't know, you seem to bitch a lot more about it :drunk: . Still no explanation why pit stop blunders are not included.

If you are happy making these threads so be it, but they are not useful in any kind of way as they are ruled by complete arbitraireness to reach a final count pre-set before checking the statistics (how cool is that both get exactly 33 issues in 4 years?)

More people seemed to notice, by the way.


Edited by prty, 28 August 2013 - 13:21.


#39 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:26

How the hell Vettel's (likely) self-inflicted KERS issues in Hungary get a guernsey... AS IF that's the same as losing it in qually, as Webber did.

Vettel's lost several race victories due to reliability problems - undortunately that's what happens when you are in the lead so frequently. In Webber's case, history shows his issues often occur during qualifying, or leaving the grid. Hence he's not going to lose as many points with a retirement as Vettel does, simply because he's fighting further back in the field!

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#40 sv401

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:30

How the hell Vettel's (likely) self-inflicted KERS issues in Hungary get a guernsey... AS IF that's the same as losing it in qually, as Webber did.

 

If you think KERS problems while following another car are normal (not that I notice a lot of them on non-Red Bull cars), then does not that also make many of Webber's KERS issues also the driver's fault ? After all, he statistically spends more time in traffic due to his worse qualifying and starts.



#41 sv401

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:34

how cool is that both get exactly 33 issues in 4 years?

 

Even if it was not exactly the same count, if the difference is not large enough, it is not statistically significant (that is, there is a reasonable chance that it is down to simple luck).



#42 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:41

If you think KERS problems while following another car are normal (not that I notice a lot of them on non-Red Bull cars), then does not that also make many of Webber's KERS issues also the driver's fault ? After all, he statistically spends more time in traffic due to his worse qualifying and starts.


Time and time again Team Radio warns drivers to get out of the hot air coming off the car on front of them. Vettel was hard up Button's arse in Hungary, on perhaps the second hardest track to overtake on in F1, and usually the hottest race of the year. Rocky told Seb at least once to get out of the hot air when he reported his KERS problem.

Red Bull's KERS often has issues, allegedly because of Newey's packaging and the cooling problems it creates.

As for Webber's KERS issues, more often than not Webber's issues are in qually (as in Hungary), when he's not running behind someone else. So it kinda doesn't follow as you have suggested.

#43 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:44

Don't know, you seem to bitch a lot more about it :drunk: . Still no explanation why pit stop blunders are not included.

If you are happy making these threads so be it, but they are not useful in any kind of way as they are ruled by complete arbitraireness to reach a final count pre-set before checking the statistics (how cool is that both get exactly 33 issues in 4 years?)

More people seemed to notice, by the way.

If you're just willfully ignorant, than I am done talking to you. Bitch bitch bitch, and ignore every answer you're given. What a pathetic show.


Edited by mnmracer, 28 August 2013 - 13:45.


#44 sv401

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 13:57

As for Webber's KERS issues, more often than not Webber's issues are in qually (as in Hungary), when he's not running behind someone else. So it kinda doesn't follow as you have suggested.

 

Nevertheless, he does also have them in races, so if you want Vettel's 2013 Hungarian GP KERS issues to be removed from the list, then Webber's problems need to be examined too, because some of them might have been his fault, especially if the Red Bull KERS is as fragile as reported. If it cannot even output the maximum allowed 60 kW for more than a single lap (I recall it being limited to 40 kW for usage over a long stint, maybe it is no longer the case), then it might also be possible to "break" it even in free practice or qualifying. In any case, the same standards have to be applied to both drivers, otherwise the comparison is biased.



#45 prty

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 14:11

If you're just willfully ignorant, than I am done talking to you. Bitch bitch bitch, and ignore every answer you're given. What a pathetic show.

 

So, these are the answers that you gave me:

 

It's always the same with your responses, seem like a lot of work because the post is long, but are extremely one-sided, incorrect, hold no value and hilarious when you start to look at all the things you ignore to make such an utterly worthless response. If your post wasn't riddled with incorrect statements, I'd bother replying, but I'd end up just refuting every single sentence.

As are some of Vettel's issues, but of course you don't notice that. :stoned:  :wave:

Let me guess: you have no actual interest in a discussion of any sorts. You just wish to bitch and whine and throw up such a fuss in a pathetic attempt to keep the myth alive that it is just one car that always breaks down at Red Bull, because that is all you care about. Because you believe you can fool people into believing that missing out on a few parts left and there that don't change the actual trend, and relying on the good will of the community to fill this list up to 100%, changes everything. Utterly pathetic.

You seem to have some problems with your vocabulary. Calling it like it is, is something different from 'getting personal'. Also, what? What data should I provide? I don't challenge any of the serious challenges, and your whining and bitching that is woefully incorrect, is not worth anyone's time. How about you get your facts straight and then try and make a decent point. I don't know if you've ever heard of fact-checking, though I have a feeling I can answer that, but I'm first going to double-check all the added entries. Your pathetic attempts to make it seem like the gest of the article will change, is incorrect and you know it.

 

Would be really interesting to know what is there not to ignore in all that, as there is not a single piece of data or reasoning.

But it is actually good that you will stop giving such high-quality replies.



#46 mnmracer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 14:16

...

You really don't feel any shame do you? Blatantly attempting to deceive people with half stories.

 

I will make it easy for you, with a yes or no question.

Did I say:

"That said, I very much appreciate your contributions! :up:

I will add them to the article."

Just a yes or a no please.


Edited by mnmracer, 28 August 2013 - 14:17.


#47 prty

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 14:35

You really don't feel any shame do you? Blatantly attempting to deceive people with half stories.

 

I will make it easy for you, with a yes or no question.

Did I say:

Just a yes or a no please.

 

He reported an extra 13 issues for Webber and 1 for Vettel (the others are in FPs), if I counted right. Then BCM reported an extra 5 only in the period 2011-2012 for Webber, and 1 extra for Vettel, also in 2011-2012.

If you indeed add them you will be right and I will shut up.

Although then this will not apply anymore:

 

 

You just wish to bitch and whine and throw up such a fuss in a pathetic attempt to keep the myth alive that it is just one car that always breaks down at Red Bull, because that is all you care about.



#48 turssi

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 15:25

Great content mnmracer, thanks!

Lately the conspiracy theorist in me has been wondering about the regulations limited race weekend teams. Example: Do Webber and Vettel have the same number of engineers taking care of them? Do they have shared resources? If so, how do the shared resources split their time between attending the pilots?

This is important when looking at the underlaying reasons for reliability related questions, right?

#49 bourbon

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 15:36

He reported an extra 13 issues for Webber and 1 for Vettel (the others are in FPs), if I counted right. Then BCM reported an extra 5 only in the period 2011-2012 for Webber, and 1 extra for Vettel, also in 2011-2012.

If you indeed add them you will be right and I will shut up.

Although then this will not apply anymore:

 

The mere fact that you couldn't care less

 

How the hell Vettel's (likely) self-inflicted KERS issues in Hungary get a guernsey... AS IF that's the same as losing it in qually, as Webber did.

Vettel's lost several race victories due to reliability problems - undortunately that's what happens when you are in the lead so frequently. In Webber's case, history shows his issues often occur during qualifying, or leaving the grid. Hence he's not going to lose as many points with a retirement as Vettel does, simply because he's fighting further back in the field!

 

Proof?



#50 apoka

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 16:04

Time and time again Team Radio warns drivers to get out of the hot air coming off the car on front of them. Vettel was hard up Button's arse in Hungary, on perhaps the second hardest track to overtake on in F1, and usually the hottest race of the year. Rocky told Seb at least once to get out of the hot air when he reported his KERS problem.

Red Bull's KERS often has issues, allegedly because of Newey's packaging and the cooling problems it creates.

As for Webber's KERS issues, more often than not Webber's issues are in qually (as in Hungary), when he's not running behind someone else. So it kinda doesn't follow as you have suggested.

I think you'd open a can of worms if you don't count that KERS issue. It shouldn't break even in traffic.