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Vettel, Webber and reliability at Red Bull


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#101 mnmracer

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 21:13

Then that's where we differ on mnm's idea, I personally think a list whereby reliability problems have an direct effect of net points position is more meaningful than just purely listing them. Also I wouldn't classify such things as team orders as a car reliability item just so it makes the list.

As for Vettel's race, I think they should ban pits to radio altogether. Would make races better and interesting :)

You'd think after people mention it 50 time, at some point some one would say: "hey, what'dya know, if I want to exclude those, it is already there for me to simply read". Apparently, I was wrong...

 

There's several myths perpetrated by Webber('s fans), so this takes care of all of them.

Myth that Webber has significantly worse reliability: busted.

Myth that Webber only always gets the team orders: busted.

 

Now there is hypothesis that, although they may have roughly the same amount of problems, Webber lost significantly more points. Since I cover that in my annual "championship without misfortune", I don't need to open that can of worms here to know where that myth is going, but of course I encourage anyone to give it a go.



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#102 DILLIGAF

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 22:27

I don't know how someone could turn the last 5 years into all are against Webber.

 

Nobody has. :rolleyes:



#103 mnmracer

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 22:33

Nobody has. :rolleyes:

You must be new here.



#104 Blackmore

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 23:52

I think it is silly to add some of the things to the list just to please the nay-sayers who clearly have an anti-Vettel agenda. So Democratic Party.

 

Reliability problems are mechanical/technical failures. Period. Engine dies, brakes fail, tyre explodes, alternator kaput, KERS gone, defective chassis, things like that.

 

Ignoring teamorders, crashes, slow pitstops and shitty starts because the driver is borderline autistic should not even be considered as reliability issues. On top of that, Webber loves telling publicly what is wrong with the car in every session while Vettel keeps it a secret most of the time to not show his hand to the other teams. It shows your weakness. So that adds to the tally too.

 

Heck, lets add more reliability problems to Webber because he farted when going through a corner, which is why he lost a tenth of a second losing the pole to the evil German. It was the cars fault for making him fart at the wrong moment.



#105 plumtree

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 01:36

I think it is silly to add some of the things to the list just to please the nay-sayers who clearly have an anti-Vettel agenda. So Democratic Party.

 

Reliability problems are mechanical/technical failures. Period. Engine dies, brakes fail, tyre explodes, alternator kaput, KERS gone, defective chassis, things like that.

 

Ignoring teamorders, crashes, slow pitstops and shitty starts because the driver is borderline autistic should not even be considered as reliability issues. On top of that, Webber loves telling publicly what is wrong with the car in every session while Vettel keeps it a secret most of the time to not show his hand to the other teams. It shows your weakness. So that adds to the tally too.

 

Heck, lets add more reliability problems to Webber because he farted when going through a corner, which is why he lost a tenth of a second losing the pole to the evil German. It was the cars fault for making him fart at the wrong moment.

 

I was thinking that too. Not only do fans overreact when Webber having a problem, the way the drivers dealing with issues on* and off the track distort the perception a lot. Knowing that Webber hardly cares how the team look to the public (after his retirement announcement it's even clearer, as a few journalists reported) and how close he's with Mateschtz I doubt anyone in the team would dare to try any fish stuffs deliberately. Let alone the conception of a championship-aspiring team considering sabotaging their driver is absurd from the start and it doesn't explain why Webber extended his contract season after season while having other options like moving to Ferrari where he could have teamed up with his friend.

 

* Let's say had Vettel lost the title last year in Brazil, we'd have heard more about the start and how the radio problem cost them the title, or about the two alternator issues, Abu Dhabi DSQ on Saturday and so on. The same can be applied to his 2010 championship campaign. Since he won all is well and those issues became forgettable. Another example is Monaco 2011. Again Vettel's radio problem caused the pit crew to put a wrong set of tyres. If he hadn't come up with the one-stop call himself and had not been able to make the strategy work accordingly people would have remembered something went wrong with him in that race. Instead all we heard is how lucky he was both with the wrong tyre choice and the red flag. Barrichello accused Brawn of giving superior strategy to Button. In some cases the strategy simply didn't work, because he couldn't execute it as planned. 

 

I'm not saying only Vettel is capable of such, as we've seen a good number of impressive recovery drive from Webber as well. But we've also often noticed once something goes wrong, things go in a downward spiral rapidly and catch people's eyes. Conspiracists have a field day, the man himself adds fuel to the fire, the team get severely criticized and it will be talked about over and over. The prime example was Abu Dhabi '10. (it had nothing to do with a mechanical issue by the way) He underperformed in qualifying. The start was ok. Then he brushed the wall, damaged the rear tyre, had to pit earlier than planned, got struck behind Petrov and Alonso till the end of the race. We can be quite certain there was basically zero chance for him to win it either way but at least we wouldn't have dealt with the conspiracy theory Red Bull pitted him earlier in order to bait Alonso and enhance Vettel's chance, etc. 


Edited by plumtree, 30 August 2013 - 02:25.


#106 Brother Fox

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 02:57

There's several myths perpetrated by Webber('s fans), so this takes care of all of them.

Myth that Webber has significantly worse reliability: busted.

Myth that Webber only always gets the team orders: busted.

 

By your subjective and interpreted list of problems.

Which you call fact and say it proves your point.

 

Your point and stance is well known, its just looking more and more pathetic the more you try to justify it with bullshit statisitics



#107 HP

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 04:45

I am far from the biggest Alonso apologist, and there have been several reports of Ferrari having only one new car, but sabotaging Massa outside that one specific case? No, I don't see that.

No matter the team, team orders are a clear sign of of team preferences.

 

It would be outrageous, if the Red Bull's were 100% reliable, and were still winning races all over. Then all other teams could be seen as failures.

 

And mechanical issues can be debated to no end. Often they happen because of performance issues vs. reliability issues. I might go faster with more performant pieces, but run the risk of retiring much more often.

 

Then there are issue like the alternator failures, which were a Renault/Red Bull issue.

 

IMO S*** happens. Pointing fingers, conspiracies, and such accumulate the grand total of 0% help to solve any of these issues.Actually in my experience those accusations even distract people from coming up with good solutions that solve the real issues.

 

If Red Bull is favoring Vettel, then no talk will solve this. Same way as it doesn't change a thing about the MS vs. RB, or FA vs FM debates. The past is gone, and nothing will change it. I could spend huge effort to pretty paint, or demonize a driver, or a team in F1. But it still doesn't change what happend in the past, so why waste time on the past that are irrevelant on things today?

 

In regards to this thread, it seems to me that the Red Bull is like the Ferrari of old. Fast but fickle. It is said, with a twinkle in the eye, the reason a Ferrari road car brakes down (or should we say unwillful parked) is to admire it. Not to lambast it. And well nobody really cares about the driver of a such a Ferrari. Again what's to be admired is the car. Sadly enough we are in a too busy world these days to admire these things. A broken down F1 car is a piece to be admired too. In that sense, they should break down more often. On which driver is irrevelant to me.



#108 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 08:39

You keep believing that, mmmracer.

People are pointing out that whilst the number of issues may be similar overall, it's the almost-too-convenient timing of Webber's issues that's the real matter under discussion.

That's my take on it.

I'd rather have a KERS failure in the race when I'm out in front, than one in qualifying that prevents me from fighting at the front in the first place.

Timing is everything, but you aren't considering that because it doesn't help Vettel's side here, which is your favoured position.

 

I am sorry but I wholly disagree with your viewpoint here. Lack of reliabilities happened to everyone in Formula 1 and not just confined and specific to Webber only. Webber has been especially lucky as most of his issues do not end up in races resulting in unnecessary and costly retirements. Vettel by my count has suffered 5 retirements due to mechanical issues and dropped back twice while leading, while Webber has never had any mechanical issue while leading the race.

 

The list of Vettel's retirements due to mechanical issues at RBR and STR
n Year Grand Prix Grid Chassis Engine Tyre Lap Retirement
12 2013 Britain 3 1 Red Bull RB9 Renault V8 Pirelli 41 Gearbox
11 2012 Italy 5 1 Red Bull RB8 Renault V8 Pirelli 47 Alternator
10 2012 Europe 1 1 Red Bull RB8 Renault V8 Pirelli 33 Alternator
9 2011 Abu Dhabi 1 1 Red Bull RB7 Renault V8 Pirelli 1 Puncture
8 2010 South Korea 1 5 Red Bull RB6 Renault V8 Bridgestone 45 Engine
7 2010 Australia 1 5 Red Bull RB6 Renault V8 Bridgestone 25 Wheel
6 2009 Europe 4 15 Red Bull RB5 Renault V8 Bridgestone 23 Engine
5 2009 Hungary 2 15 Red Bull RB5 Renault V8 Bridgestone 29 Suspension
4 2008 Hungary 11 15 Toro Rosso STR3 Ferrari V8 Bridgestone 22 Overheating
3 2008 Malaysia 15 15 Toro Rosso STR2B Ferrari V8 Bridgestone 39 Engine
2 2007 Brazil 13 19 Toro Rosso STR2 Ferrari V8 Bridgestone 34 Hydraulics
1 2007 Belgium 16 19 Toro Rosso STR2 Ferrari V8 Bridgestone 8 Steering
 
The list of Webber's retirements due to mechanical issues at RBR
n Year Grand Prix Grid Chassis Engine Tyre Lap Retirement
11 2013 China 22 2 Red Bull RB9 Renault V8 Pirelli 15 Wheel lost
10 2012 USA 3 2 Red Bull RB8 Renault V8 Pirelli 16 Alternator
9 2009 Singapore 4 14 Red Bull RB5 Renault V8 Bridgestone 45 Brakes
8 2008 Singapore 13 10 Red Bull RB4 Renault V8 Bridgestone 29 Transmission
7 2008 Germany 8 10 Red Bull RB4 Renault V8 Bridgestone 40 Oil leak
6 2007 Brazil 5 15 Red Bull RB3 Renault V8 Bridgestone 14 Transmission
5 2007 Turkey 12 15 Red Bull RB3 Renault V8 Bridgestone 9 Hydraulics
4 2007 Britain 11 15 Red Bull RB3 Renault V8 Bridgestone 8 Hydraulics
3 2007 Monaco 6 15 Red Bull RB3 Renault V8 Bridgestone 17 Gearbox
2 2007 Spain 19 15 Red Bull RB3 Renault V8 Bridgestone 7 Hydraulics
1 2007 Bahrain 8 15 Red Bull RB3 Renault V8 Bridgestone 41 Gearbox
 

Despite numerous niggling issues, Mark Webber has been rather trouble-free from 2009-2012.



#109 barcode

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:23

You just listed retirements and ignored the 50 clutch and KERS problems Webber has had in qualifying and races which accounts for a massive amount of points.



#110 apoka

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:37

You just listed retirements and ignored the 50 clutch and KERS problems Webber has had in qualifying and races which accounts for a massive amount of points.

Please read the opening post.



#111 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:42

By your subjective and interpreted list of problems.

Which you call fact and say it proves your point.

 

Your point and stance is well known, its just looking more and more pathetic the more you try to justify it with bullshit statisitics

 

You just listed retirements and ignored the 50 clutch and KERS problems Webber has had in qualifying and races which accounts for a massive amount of points.

So everyone's just going to make unsubstantiated claims and hope people believe their deception?

If you want to prove the earth is flat, you should do more proving then simply saying "because I say so".



#112 Brother Fox

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:45

You think that addresses my point?

#113 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:58

You think that addresses my point?

You're not making any point. You're just making a statement that is not supported by the facts available, without providing facts to support your claim.



#114 Blackmore

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 10:07

You think that addresses my point?

 

Nobody here understands your point. Post your reliability list the way you see it.



#115 Brother Fox

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 10:50

Exactly, anyone can come up with a set of stats to support the conclusion they'd come to before they started.

Your list contains stacks of interpretation but you claim it's unquestionable fact - ergo bullshit

#116 barcode

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 11:01

 

The 2013 Belgian Grand Prix marked the fourth race in a row that a Red Bull encountered mechanical issues. Following Vettel's retirement in Silverstone, Webber's horror pitstop in Germany and both drivers' mechanical issues in Hungary, Webber had clutch issues at the start of the Belgian Grand Prix. As this is the last year of the explosive pairing of Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber, I looked through the history books to see how mechanical issues, team orders, and clashes with each other have affected both Red Bull drivers.
 
2009
China: Vettel can only make one run in each qualifying session due to driveshaft problems.
Turkey: Vettel is given the team order not to challenge Webber for 2nd place.
Belgium: Webber had an unsafe release during his pit stop, leading to a drive-through penalty.
Hungary: Vettel retires with suspension faillure.
Europe: Vettel has to make a 2nd stop because of fuel rig problems, and then retires with an engine problem.
Singapore: Webber retires with a brake problem.
Japan: Webber has issues with his headrest, forcing him to make 2 extra pit stops.
 
2009 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 4 issues (3 mechanical issues, 1 team order), 2 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 3 issues (2 mechanical issues, 1 significant pit stop issue), 1 leading to a DNF
 
2010
Bahrain: Vettel loses the lead due to a spark plug failure, dropping him back to 4th.
Bahrain: Webber had a slow pit stop, which lost him a position to Button.
Australia: Vettel retires from the lead due to a brake failure.
Spain: Vettel has brake issues late in the race, which drop him back from second to third place.
Monaco: After Monaco, it is found that Vettel's chassis was cracked.
Turkey: Vettel loses out on pole position due to a broken anti-rollbar.
Turkey: Webber loses the lead after Vettel colides with him.
Canada: Webber had to change his gearbox, leading to a 5-place grid penalty.
Canada: Vettel has gearbox issues during the race.
Europe: Webber drops behind Kovallainen after a slow pit stop
Britain: After a front wing failure left the team with one new spec front wing, Webber was given the old spec.
Germany: Webber had an oil pick-up problem late in the race.
Italy: Vettel's engine shortly died half-way through the race.
Korea: Vettel retires from the lead due to an engine failure.
Brazil: Webber struggles with high engine temperatures in the race.
 
2010 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 8 issues (8 mechanical issues), 2 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 7 issues (3 mechanical issues, 1 team order, 1 team-mate clash, 2 significant pit stop issues), none leading to a DNF
 
2011
Australia: Webber had KERS issues in Q2 and Q3.
Australia: Vettel and Webber had KERS issues during the race.
Australia: Webber had problems with his chassis.
Malaysia: Webber had no KERS in Q3.
Malaysia: Vettel and Webber had KERS issues during the race.
Malaysia: Vettel has brake problems late in the race.
China: Webber qualifies 18th after electrical problems in practice.
China: Vettel has KERS issues during the race.
Spain: Vettel had KERS issues during qualifying.
Spain: Vettel had KERS issues throughout the race.
Monaco: Webber had radio issues shortly before his pit stop, causing a slow stop.
Canada: Webber had KERS issues during qualifying.
Europe: Webber had gearbox issues later in the race, dropping him from 2nd to 3rd.
Britain: A faulty wheelgun at his pit stop drops Vettel from the lead into 2nd place.
Britain: Vettel has KERS issues late in the race.
Britain: Webber was given team-orders not to challenge Vettel, who had KERS issues.
Britain: Vettel was challenged by Webber, who ignored the team orders not to.
Germany: Vettel has brake issues during the race.
Hungary: Webber had no KERS in Q2, which returned in Q3.
Hungary: Webber's DRS failed during Q3.
Hungary: Vettel has brake issues during the race.
Belgium: Webber misses the pit call and had to go for another lap.
Italy: Webber had KERS issues in qualifying.
Singapore: Webber had no DRS during the race, which he believed dropped him from 2nd to 3rd.
Abu Dhabi: Vettel has a tire puncture in turn 1.
Brazil: Vettel has gearbox issues, which drops him from the lead, to finish 2nd.
 
2011 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 12 issues (10 mechanical issues, 1 significant pit stop issue, 1 team-mate clash), 1 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 15 issues (12 mechanical issues, 2 significant pit stop issues, 1 team order), none leading to a DNF
 
2012
Australia: Both Vettel and Webber had KERS issues in qualifying.
Malaysia: Vettel's radio stopped working shortly after the restart.
Bahrain: Webber had no KERS for the first lap.
Spain: Webber is held too long in Q2, making him miss out on Q3.
Spain: Both Vettel and Webber had to have their front wing changed during the race.
Canada: Webber has engine issues early on in the race.
Europe: Webber had DRS issues in qualifying, which left him at the back of the starting grid.
Europe: Vettel retires from the lead due to an alternator failure.
Germany: Webber had to change his gearbox, leading to a 5-place grid penalty.
Hungary: Webber had an issue with his differential.
Belgium: Webber receives a 5-spot grid penalty for a gearbox change.
Italy: Vettel retires with an alternator failure.
India: Webber's KERS issue dropped him from 2nd to 3rd.
Abu Dhabi: Vettel's fuel pump issues in qualifying sent him to the back of the starting grid.
United States: Webber retires with an alternator failure.
Brazil: Vettel's start is affected after Webber ignored instructions not to challenge him.
Brazil: Webber is issued a team order to let Vettel pass.
Brazil: Vettel's radio stops working, leading to pit stop issues.
 
2012 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 8 issues (7 mechanical issues, 1 team-mate clash), 2 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 12 issues (10 mechanical issues, 1 team orders, 1 significant pit stop issue), 1 leading to a DNF
 
2013
Australia: Webber has ECU/KERS issues for the first part of the race.
Australia: Webber returns in traffic after the front jack failed in the pit stop.
Malaysia: Vettel is given a team order not to challenge Webber half-way through the race.
Malaysia: Vettel is given a team order not to overtake Webber after the final pit stops.
Malaysia: Webber loses the lead after Vettel ignores a team order.
China: Webber lost fuel pressure in Q2.
China: Webber's wheel comes off during the race.
Britain: Vettel retires from the lead with gearbox issues.
Germany: Webber's first pit stop goes disastrous, which puts him back at the end of the field.
Germany: Vettel has KERS issues during the race.
Hungary: Webber has KERS issues during qualifying.
Hungary: Vettel has overheating and KERS issues during the race.
Belgium: Webber has clutch issues at the start of the race.
 
2013 half-season score card
Sebastian Vettel: 5 issues (3 mechanical issues, 2 team orders), 1 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 8 issues (5 mechanical issues, 2 significant pit stop issues, 1 team-mate clash), 1 leading to a DNF
 
4.5 year score card
Sebastian Vettel: 37 issues (31 mechanical issues, 3 team order, 2 team-mate clashes, 1 significant pit stop issue), 8 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 44 issues (32 mechanical issues, 3 team orders, 2 team-mate clashes, 7 significant pit stop issues), 3 leading to a DNF

 

 

 

You listed a whole bunch of extremely minor almost irrelevant Vettel 'issues' to deliberately distort the true picture. You cannot compare Vettel having radio problems or brake issues, late in a race when he is dominating, to clutch problems which ruin an entire race when Webber loses 6 places at the start, or KERS issues which cost him a bunch of grid positions. Fact is Webber has had far more major and damaging car issues than Vettel despite the Vettel fans trying their best, to pretend other wise. Nice effort though, your passion shows.


Edited by barcode, 30 August 2013 - 11:01.


#117 apoka

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 11:07

You listed a whole bunch of extremely minor almost irrelevant Vettel 'issues' to deliberately distort the true picture. You cannot compare Vettel having radio problems or brake issues, late in a race when he is dominating, to clutch problems which ruin an entire race when Webber loses 6 places at the start, or KERS issues which cost him a bunch of grid positions. Fact is Webber has had far more major and damaging car issues than Vettel despite the Vettel fans trying their best, to pretend other wise. Nice effort though, your passion shows.

If you claim this, then please provide an overview yourself, for instance the number/percentage of points lost for Webber and Vettel.



#118 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 11:09

Exactly, anyone can come up with a set of stats to support the conclusion they'd come to before they started.

Your list contains stacks of interpretation but you claim it's unquestionable fact - ergo bullshit

"I can't produce any evidence to support my claims, so I'll just claim I won't because it's too easy. I'm sure they'll fall for it."

:rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:

 

Let's start a topic about how Massa is really better than Alonso, and anyone who claims differently, we'll just tell: "anyone can come up with a set of stats to support the conclusion they'd come to before they started." :drunk:

 

FACT is that you are making extraordinary claims for which you provide absolutely no evidence.


Edited by mnmracer, 30 August 2013 - 11:16.


#119 barcode

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 11:17

If you claim this, then please provide an overview yourself, for instance the number/percentage of points lost for Webber and Vettel.

 

Not worth the effort. We all know Webber has been screwed over far more often and is the number 2.



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#120 Brother Fox

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 11:20

Ok genius, quote my claims in this thread.

I've said your methodology is flawed, and you claim that what you've provided is unquestionable fact when it clear to anyone with a brain that its not

#121 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 11:53

You explicitly claim it is a subjective list, for which you provide no support.
You explicity claim "stack of interpretation", for which you provide no support.
The fact you come bitching here implies you claim that the conclusion that both had roughly the same number of reliability problems is incorrect, for which you nor those that explicitly claim it, provide any support.


#122 Brother Fox

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 12:20

So my 'extraordinary claims' are calling bullshit on your method

Enjoy

#123 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 12:31

Oh boohoo, you know damn well what point you're fighting for here. Don't act like a pussy hiding behind 'I did not specifically say that'.

Plus you still did not provide a single shred of support. Seriously, do you know no shame? If you stand for something, stand for something already!



#124 Blackmore

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 12:39

So my 'extraordinary claims' are calling bullshit on your method

Enjoy

 

You are the one coming across as a childish bullshitter so far. Post a list of what you think is correct or shhh.



#125 Brother Fox

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 12:49

You want me to provide evidence that your method is rubbish?
You group everything from dodgy radios to complete engine failure.
The severity if which is very subjective, yet you take a final number alone as conclusive and irrefutable proof. That is rubbish to anyone who cares to think about it.

You're suggesting that I believe the opposite to you, probably true - but I'm not the one using a poor system to justify my opinion

Blackmore: you've missed the point completely

#126 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 13:05

You want me to provide evidence that your method is rubbish?
You group everything from dodgy radios to complete engine failure.
The severity if which is very subjective, yet you take a final number alone as conclusive and irrefutable proof. That is rubbish to anyone who cares to think about it.

You're suggesting that I believe the opposite to you, probably true - but I'm not the one using a poor system to justify my opinion

The premise was to answer one simple question: does Mark Webber have more (you know, a word which indicates quantification) mechanical and other team issues than Sebastian Vettel?

That's what this article does. Nowhere does it claim differently. Nowhere does it claim "look, Webber or Vettel lost as many points" or what not. That has been addressed in other articles.

If you're having trouble reading and plaster whatever you want to read onto other people's posts, that is your problem.

 

If your belief of something factual is based on opinion, you should probably reconsider what the hell you're doing.

Opinions are there to fill the gaps left by facts, not to replace them.


Edited by mnmracer, 30 August 2013 - 13:08.


#127 prty

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 13:50

Something that wasn't thrown into the same sack, like a radio problem at the end if the race and clutch malfunction at the start, were pit stop blunders. And in that Webber leads 7 to 1.

#128 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 13:54

Something that wasn't thrown into the same sack, like a radio problem at the end if the race and clutch malfunction at the start, were pit stop blunders. And in that Webber leads 7 to 1.

And Vettel leads in mechanical DNFs 8 to 3.

Your point?



#129 Moore

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:15

And Vettel leads in mechanical DNFs 8 to 3.

Your point?

 

The point is that you include team orders and radio problems but negate pitstop blunders.. 



#130 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:16

The point is that you include team orders and radio problems but negate pitstop blunders.. 

Please do not spread lies. It's despicable.

 

Sebastian Vettel: 37 issues (31 mechanical issues, 3 team order, 2 team-mate clashes, 1 significant pit stop issue), 8 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 44 issues (32 mechanical issues, 3 team orders, 2 team-mate clashes, 7 significant pit stop issues), 3 leading to a DNF

 

 


Edited by mnmracer, 30 August 2013 - 14:17.


#131 Moore

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:18

 

Please do not spread lies.

 

 

 

Sorry about that, I just went back and noticed you'd included them. My fault for jumping to conclusions after only reading a proportion of this thread. I must of missed them when you created this thread, or you added them later on.



#132 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:25

Sorry about that, I just went back and noticed you'd included them. My fault for jumping to conclusions after only reading a proportion of this thread. I must of missed them when you created this thread, or you added them later on.

Were there since the beginning and it's been 38 hours since the last edit to the OP.



#133 Zava

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:29

btw, why only 1 bad pit stop ('11 silverstone) for Vettel? he had a bad pit stop in '11 monaco as well, dropping him behind Button (and getting the other type of tyres, well, he made the best of those  :smoking: ), and a shocker in '12 brasil as well, first he got slicks when everyone else was putting on inters, then 2 laps later he came in for inters, but the team haven't had the tyres ready, resulting in a 7.6 seconds longer pit stop than the previous one.

just two more off the top of my head, could be some more out there...



#134 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:33

btw, why only 1 bad pit stop ('11 silverstone) for Vettel? he had a bad pit stop in '11 monaco as well, dropping him behind Button (and getting the other type of tyres, well, he made the best of those  :smoking: ), and a shocker in '12 brasil as well, first he got slicks when everyone else was putting on inters, then 2 laps later he came in for inters, but the team haven't had the tyres ready, resulting in a 7.6 seconds longer pit stop than the previous one.

just two more off the top of my head, could be some more out there...

Feel free to list them and I'll add them later  :)

Brasil '12 was a result of radio problems, that's why I didn't list it separately.


Edited by mnmracer, 30 August 2013 - 14:37.


#135 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:37

You listed a whole bunch of extremely minor almost irrelevant Vettel 'issues' to deliberately distort the true picture. You cannot compare Vettel having radio problems or brake issues, late in a race when he is dominating, to clutch problems which ruin an entire race when Webber loses 6 places at the start, or KERS issues which cost him a bunch of grid positions. Fact is Webber has had far more major and damaging car issues than Vettel despite the Vettel fans trying their best, to pretend other wise. Nice effort though, your passion shows.

 

When did Webber lose 6 places at the start due to clutch issue?



#136 Zava

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:41

Feel free to list them and I'll add them later  :)

Brasil '12 was a result of radio problems, that's why I didn't list it separately.

ah, OK. take them as listed.  :p

so I take the slicks instead of inters were the radio issue? (yet again "just a radio issue", which obviously cost some places, wow! :stoned: ) just sayin' that the 7.6 sec slower stop for inters still counts as a bad stop.   ;)



#137 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:45

ah, OK. take them as listed.  :p

so I take the slicks instead of inters were the radio issue? (yet again "just a radio issue", which obviously cost some places, wow! :stoned: ) just sayin' that the 7.6 sec slower stop for inters still counts as a bad stop.   ;)

Good point. Had forgotten it was not just a bad call, but also a bad stop. In for the next update it is!



#138 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:50

btw, why only 1 bad pit stop ('11 silverstone) for Vettel? he had a bad pit stop in '11 monaco as well, dropping him behind Button (and getting the other type of tyres, well, he made the best of those  :smoking: ), and a shocker in '12 brasil as well, first he got slicks when everyone else was putting on inters, then 2 laps later he came in for inters, but the team haven't had the tyres ready, resulting in a 7.6 seconds longer pit stop than the previous one.

just two more off the top of my head, could be some more out there...

 

A rather "harmless" radio issue that could have cost him the championship in the changeable condition.



#139 prty

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 16:52

And Vettel leads in mechanical DNFs 8 to 3.
Your point?


And how many of them down to Red Bull? Because you are not seriously saying that RBR is behind the reliability of the alternator are you?

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#140 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 17:22

And how many of them down to Red Bull? Because you are not seriously saying that RBR is behind the reliability of the alternator are you?

Dude... how about you start making some points?

It gets kind of tiring to have to write "what's your point" every time you open your mouth.


Edited by mnmracer, 30 August 2013 - 17:23.


#141 prty

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 17:49

Dude... how about you start making some points?
It gets kind of tiring to have to write "what's your point" every time you open your mouth.


You wrote in the first page:

"Since this was an effort in the interteam situation (also partially in response to the conspiracy theorists), I wanted to focuss on issues where the cause was internal"

A bit rich to ask for the point when you don't remember yours.

#142 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 18:22

You wrote in the first page:

"Since this was an effort in the interteam situation (also partially in response to the conspiracy theorists), I wanted to focuss on issues where the cause was internal"

A bit rich to ask for the point when you don't remember yours.

I can only hope for your sake you're just acting stupid here.

 

I think it's clear what I mean. If you want to exclude any engine trouble (because, Renault), any alternator trouble (if you ignore the influence of Red Bull's tight design), any tire trouble (because, Pirelli), any ECU trouble (because, McLaren), feel free to put your money where your mouth is and write your own article.



#143 prty

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 18:47

I can only hope for your sake you're just acting stupid here.

I think it's clear what I mean. If you want to exclude any engine trouble (because, Renault), any alternator trouble (if you ignore the influence of Red Bull's tight design), any tire trouble (because, Pirelli), any ECU trouble (because, McLaren), feel free to put your money where your mouth is and write your own article.


I'm not the one who started this "article", therefore it's not my fault if it doesn't give what it promises.

By the way, it's not clear what you mean. You say internal issues only when pointed out that Webber had more clashes which were not his fault, but then when I point that some of the reliability issues are external too, I should "know what you mean". Well, I don't.

#144 JSDSKI

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 21:01

Weighting a "radio problem" and a "clutch setting problem" equally is quantifiably silly.  

Proves nothing more than the weakness of arithmetic as a complex analysis tool.   Counting events (especially in complex systems) does not immediately lead to understanding because counting events is just one part of analysis.  A screw can fail twenty times and we can prove how "screwed up" the screw is by counting "20 screw problems".  You can change the screw 21 times without solution.  It takes context and interpretation - or quantifying by a more complex and systematic method - to discover the design failure, the "1 design failure" -  that solves the problem and ends the failures.

When, where, and how are often more telling than "how many" when looking for the diverse reason parts, people, or race teams fail.



#145 apoka

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 21:52

I fear that some of the Webber supporters pointing out that there should be weights for the different issues could be in for a surprise when someone actually does that analysis (if possible at all), in particular since the DNFs of Vettel were very costly.



#146 mnmracer

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 22:14

I fear that some of the Webber supporters pointing out that there should be weights for the different issues could be in for a surprise when someone actually does that analysis (if possible at all), in particular since the DNFs of Vettel were very costly.

That's probably why they're not doing it. It's easier to keep a myth alive when it's not been specifically been pointed out it's wrong.

Though of course, driver performance will also skew the results, which is one of the reasons I didn't bother. If in a non-problem race, Vettel is 20 seconds in the lead, and Webber 5 seconds ahead of the number 3, a KERS issue that costs 10 seconds will make Webber lose points, while Vettel still wins: same problem, different impact.


Edited by mnmracer, 30 August 2013 - 22:25.


#147 Skinnyguy

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 22:30

Excellent effort OP. Those contributing to the discussion adding stuff/propossing new additions are doing a good job too, in the end we´ll have a nice overview.

 

On the other hand the inevitable fools saying "what you wrote is shit" without making any specific claim based on actual events happening during the races are just that: fools.



#148 Kelateboy

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 01:35

And how many of them down to Red Bull? Because you are not seriously saying  that RBR is behind the reliability of the alternator are you?

 

A rather disingenuous and odd way of looking at reliability. So, since the alternator is not manufactured by RBR and by Magneti Marelli, then it does not count? So we should count out all engine related issues as the engine is supplied by Renault Sport,all tyre related issues since tyres are supplied Pirelli, all SECU related issues since SECU is supplied by MEL, all brake related issues since Brembo supplies the brakes, and etc?



#149 Kelateboy

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 02:30

I am sorry but I wholly disagree with your viewpoint here. Lack of reliabilities happened to everyone in Formula 1 and not just confined and specific to Webber only. Webber has been especially lucky as most of his issues do not end up in races resulting in unnecessary and costly retirements. Vettel by my count has suffered 5 retirements due to mechanical issues and dropped back twice while leading, while Webber has never had any mechanical issue while leading the race.

 

The list of Vettel's retirements due to mechanical issues at RBR and STR
n Year Grand Prix Grid N° Chassis Engine Tyre Lap Retirement
8 2013 Britain 3 1 Red Bull RB9 Renault V8 Pirelli 41 Gearbox
7 2012 Italy 5 1 Red Bull RB8 Renault V8 Pirelli 47 Alternator
6 2012 Europe 1 1 Red Bull RB8 Renault V8 Pirelli 33 Alternator
5 2011 Abu Dhabi 1 1 Red Bull RB7 Renault V8 Pirelli 1 Puncture
4 2010 South Korea 1 5 Red Bull RB6 Renault V8 Bridgestone 45 Engine
3 2010 Australia 1 5 Red Bull RB6 Renault V8 Bridgestone 25 Wheel
2 2009 Europe 4 15 Red Bull RB5 Renault V8 Bridgestone 23 Engine
1 2009 Hungary 2 15 Red Bull RB5 Renault V8 Bridgestone 29 Suspension
 
The list of Webber's retirements due to mechanical issues at RBR
n Year Grand Prix Grid N° Chassis Engine Tyre Lap Retirement
3 2013 China 22 2 Red Bull RB9 Renault V8 Pirelli 15 Wheel lost
2 2012 USA 3 2 Red Bull RB8 Renault V8 Pirelli 16 Alternator
1 2009 Singapore 4 14 Red Bull RB5 Renault V8 Bridgestone 45 Brakes

 

Webber retired in China 2013 when he was out of points, in USA 2012 while in 3rd position and in Singapore 2009 in 6th position (his earlier position before the pitstop). The total potential point loss for Webber was a mere 23 pts. Vettel retired from the lead 5 times, retired in 8th position in Hungary 2009, in 5th position in Italy 2012 and out of points in Europe 2009 for a potential point loss of 139 pts.