72 replies to this topic

[mnmracer]

BBC talked to Sebastien Bourdais, as the only other driver to have been team-mates with Sebastian Vettel for a whole season, to see what could be waiting for Daniel.

 

What I thought was very interesting was the following:

His main strength is he is naturally gifted and has awesome car control and that allows him to drive a car on the limit with oversteer (when the front of the car has more grip than the rear) all the time - and that tends to be the quickest way in Formula 1.

 

Considering Vettel's been excellent in using the Red Bull's rear-grip design philosophy, it's an interesting reminder of his performance in the more tail-happy Torro Rosso.

Edited by mnmracer, 03 September 2013 - 21:02.

[Ross Stonefeld]

As I recall, Bourdais was much more competitive with him initially and then they upgraded the car and it went a bit more tail-happy.

[Disgrace]

Only because Vettel was punted out of three out of the first five races (those in the old car) on the very first lap.

[joshb]

I found Bourdais' comments interesting, especially his belief that initially he thought Seb was lacking mental strength. He came through a tortuous RB programme and has rebounded after low point & disappointments s to win titles in both years (2010 Spa,Turkey,Korea and 2012 Malaysia, Valencia, Abu Dhabi, Brazil) but the article does have some errors

 

It was 2-5 in Liuzzis favour in terms of results, not 2-7, but points were 5-3 for Seb

He didn't crash in the first 5 races-  Blameless in all 3 of his incidents, had an engine go in Malaysia and had a puncture in Turkey

SB didn't get battered for 1 1/2 years- only with him for 1 year

 

I find Seb's Toro Rosso career gets misinterpreted or forgotten altogether by people, who only see him since 2009 when he had a competitive car and were so obsessed with Hamilton's title challenges in 07 and 08, maybe didn't even know Vettel was in there too.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I wasn't going purely on running order at the end of the first lap. But thanks for making this the typical RC thread.

[mnmracer]

Australia - qualifying: Vettel p10, Bourdais p18

Australia - race: 1st lap retirement Vettel

Malaysia - qualifying: Vettel p15, Bourdais p19

Malaysia - race: 1st lap retirement Bourdais

Bahrain- qualifying: Bourdais p15, Vettel p19

Bahrain - race: 1st lap retirement Vettel

Spain - qualifying: Bourdais p16, Vettel p17

Spain - race: 1st lap retirement Vettel

Turkey - qualifying: Vettel p14, Bourdais p18

Turkey - race: retirement Bourdais

Monaco - qualifying: Vettel p14, Bourdais p16

Monaco - race: retirement Bourdais

Canada - qualifying: no time Vettel

Canada - race: Vettel p8, Bourdais p13

France  - qualifying: Vettel p13, Bourdais p14

France - race: Vettel p12, Bourdais p17

Britain - qualifying: Vettel p8, Bourdais p13

Britain - race: 1st lap retirement Vettel

Germany - qualifying: Vettel p9, Bourdais p15

Germany - race: Vettel p8, Bourdais p12

Hungary - qualifying: Vettel p11, Bourdais p14

Hungary - race: Vettel retires

Valencia - qualifying: Vettel p6, Bourdais p10

Valencia - race: Vettel p6, Bourdais p10

Belgium - qualifying: Bourdais p9, Vettel p10

Belgium - race: Vettel p5, Bourdais p7

Italy - qualifying: Vettel p1, Bourdais p3

Italy - race: Vettel p1, Bourdais p18

Singapore - qualifying: Vettel p7, Bourdais p17

Singapore - race: Vettel p5, Bourdais p12

Japan - qualifying: Vettel p9, Bourdais p10

Japan - race: Vettel p6, Bourdais p10

China - qualifying: Vettel p8, Bourdais p10

China - race: Vettel p9, Bourdais p13

Brazil - qualifying: Vettel p7, Bourdais p9

Brazil - race: Vettel p4, Bourdais p14

[bourbon]

SB's words sound about right with what we've heard from Seb.  I think Daniel is aware of how hard it is to make one's way in any motorsport, let alone F1, good car or not.  He understands that he has a lot of hard work ahead.  Nonetheless, it is a great opportunity to be in RBR and also to have a teammate like Seb he can learn from. 

[MikeV1987]

Just watch his Suzuka 2012 pole lap and you'll see what Bourdais means. 

[HaydenFan]

 

Yeah, in qualifying, Bourdais was not that much off, and on race pace, in F1 a driver's finish doesn't reflect everything IMO. Outside a driver caused accident, things like strategy and reliability play a major factor in the race result.

 

But like Ross is kinda asking, when did this be about Bourdais' credentials?

 

The argument about mental toughness can be made back at the guy saying it though. Bourdais has seemingly fallen apart from his Champ Car years. True that car isn't the best, but he transitioned well from F3 and F3000 to Champ Car and then to F1 @ Toro Rosso. But after getting the boot for Alguersuari, he hasn't been the same driver. Had good runs in IndyCar and sports cars, but not close to the dominating machine who IMO, chased away many investors and backers of Champ Car. 

 

Vettel was just another top young driver. He had the sport ingrained that everything was natural. From the driver to the media (as a long time Red Bull employee). He just had the chance to get into was some of the best Grand Prix car of all time at an age where most drivers are still in the junior formula or with a lower tier F1 program. That's why their is such scrutiny and criticism about him. He's too young to be that good for many people who've followed the sport for the last few decades. 

 

[Baddoer]

Bourdais was on course to 4th place in his very first F1 race until Ferrari engine blew. IMO he was as quick as Vettel but mentally much more softer guy.

Edited by Baddoer, 03 September 2013 - 21:56.

[Iremos]

 

Yeah, in qualifying, Bourdais was not that much off, and on race pace, in F1 a driver's finish doesn't reflect everything IMO. Outside a driver caused accident, things like strategy and reliability play a major factor in the race result.

 

But like Ross is kinda asking, when did this be about Bourdais' credentials?

 

The argument about mental toughness can be made back at the guy saying it though. Bourdais has seemingly fallen apart from his Champ Car years. True that car isn't the best, but he transitioned well from F3 and F3000 to Champ Car and then to F1 @ Toro Rosso. But after getting the boot for Alguersuari, he hasn't been the same driver. Had good runs in IndyCar and sports cars, but not close to the dominating machine who IMO, chased away many investors and backers of Champ Car. 

 

Vettel was just another top young driver. He had the sport ingrained that everything was natural. From the driver to the media (as a long time Red Bull employee). He just had the chance to get into was some of the best Grand Prix car of all time at an age where most drivers are still in the junior formula or with a lower tier F1 program. That's why their is such scrutiny and criticism about him. He's too young to be that good for many people who've followed the sport for the last few decades. 

 

 

 

 

I have to disagree, not his success at such a young age raises dislike towards his persona, but his arrogance, asocial behaviour and his boasting: finger, derogatory comments about other drivers and his team-mate which shows a lack of respect towards others.

[mnmracer]

I have to disagree, not his success at such a young age raises dislike towards his persona, but his arrogance, asocial behaviour and his boasting: finger, derogatory comments about other drivers and his team-mate which shows a lack of respect towards others.

If that was true, there would be a whole bunch of other drivers getting the same stick. Nice theory, but it doesn't work.

[HaydenFan]

I have to disagree, not his success at such a young age raises dislike towards his persona, but his arrogance, asocial behaviour and his boasting: finger, derogatory comments about other drivers and his team-mate which shows a lack of respect towards others.

 

But how many other young driver's do that? Most. Just most have grown out of it by the time they reach F1. It is obvious Red Bull, other sponsors, or his family did not mind him becoming a bit of an (insert derogatory word of choice), over becoming a top flight race driver. 

[Racer3]

his arrogance, asocial behaviour and his boasting: finger, derogatory comments about other drivers and his team-mate which shows a lack of respect towards others.

 

Alter ego of Karne? OMG, the bitterness...

Cf. Bourdais: "He was obviously very fast and a fine chap to work with. Absolutely, we got on."

[Winter98]

I have to disagree, not his success at such a young age raises dislike towards his persona, but his arrogance, asocial behaviour and his boasting: finger, derogatory comments about other drivers and his team-mate which shows a lack of respect towards others.

 

You must hate all the drivers.

[sv401]

Bourdais was on course to 4th place in his very first F1 race until Ferrari engine blew.

 

Not that impressive once you consider that only 6 drivers actually finished the - rather chaotic - race.

[Brother Fox]

I have to disagree, not his success at such a young age raises dislike towards his persona, but his arrogance, asocial behaviour and his boasting: finger, derogatory comments about other drivers and his team-mate which shows a lack of respect towards others.

 

Seriously?

Theres some pretty big parts of his personality that grate with me, but the finger criticism baffles me everytime. Everyone has mannerisms that just kind of flow out when theyre happy/excited, and he's not the first person to do the 'number 1' gesture when proving he is .... in any sport

[Sin]

“You could see he was on his way up. He was obviously very fast and a fine chap to work with. Absolutely, we got on.”

 

My favorite quote of it, for everyone saying Vettel is a terrible person to have a teammate

[HeadFirst]

“You could see he was on his way up. He was obviously very fast and a fine chap to work with. Absolutely, we got on.”

 

My favorite quote of it, for everyone saying Vettel is a terrible person to have a teammate

I have a great deal of respect for Bourdais and don't doubt that he is sincere, so what happened to THAT Seb to give us the guy we have today?

[Romulan]

"He was clearly very motivated, young, full of energy, never leaving anything undone," said the Frenchman [Bourdais] . . . ."  "In the race, he was always very aggressive, even with his team-mate."

"But if you see an opportunity and you know you can make it stick, you've got to go for it, that's why you're getting paid. You have to try and finish as high as you can.["]

"If it turns out to be a disaster, and big carnage, that's different, but as long as you can make it work, it's worth the risk. So I'm not surprised that he always goes for it. He's wants to win. That's what makes him a champion." - Bourdais

These metrics can be used to measure the value of any champion in any sport:

 

1.  Talent and training.

 

2.  Goal setting: setting the goal of driving for a Formula 1 team is lofty all by itself.  And, as most of us know, Sebastian has stated his desire to break as many (positive) records as possible.

3.  He has "tunnel vision".

4.  An insatiable quest for knowledge.

5.  Fearless execution.

[Romulan]

"In the 2011 Canadian Grand Prix, he was caught out by the tricky conditions and relinquished victory on the last lap to McLaren's Jenson Button."

I remember watching this race.  The BBC commentators claimed that Jenson Button scared poor Sebastian clean off the track.  Nonsense.

[pingu666]

well hes like most people, can have a good side, and a bad side, and a annoying side.

 

so yeah, he does swerve from being likeable, to really, REALLY? moments.

 

being at the front also changes stuff, makes it harder

[Muppetmad]

Bourdais is very gracious in this interview, I have to admire him for that. Not to put down Vettel's achievement that year at all - to win in a Toro Rosso is a great achievement - but Bourdais' luck was atrocious at the least opportune moments. To be able to put that to one side and view Vettel as a team mate from a less subjective perspective is praiseworthy.

 

A good read.

[bourbon]

I wished my answers could ever be so neutral... xD I put too many emotions in my answers xD...

 

... guess it is because I'm admittedly a little bit of a fangirl... but I agree with what bourbon says...

 

I enjoy your posts, Sin, don't change.  ,

 

 

Bourdais is very gracious in this interview, I have to admire him for that. Not to put down Vettel's achievement that year at all - to win in a Toro Rosso is a great achievement - but Bourdais' luck was atrocious at the least opportune moments. To be able to put that to one side and view Vettel as a team mate from a less subjective perspective is praiseworthy.

 

A good read.

 

That is true, Bourdais was gracious in that interview - he is always pretty gracious.  In an interiew back in STRF days he talked about meeting Seb and he was equally gracious. 

 

Interviewer:  You are already familiar with the team, but how about your new team mate Sebastian Vettel?
SB: "I did not know Sebastian Vettel until the Barcelona test. He seems like a nice guy, quiet, open, confident, quick and precise in the information he gives - a good team mate who is easy to get on with. I don't see any problem with him. I think he even speaks French reasonably well!" 

 

http://www.formula1....07/12/7153.html

 

 

We have also DiResta, who granted, mainly advised us that he beat Vettel in their stint as teammates in F3, but he did end off calling him a friend, so I think that is another example that Seb can get along with teammates - even one who is beating him.

Edited by bourbon, 04 September 2013 - 06:51.

[Kelateboy]

As I recall, Bourdais was much more competitive with him initially and then they upgraded the car and it went a bit more tail-happy.

 

It is common knowledge that a racing car is always designed/set up with oversteer tendency because of its ability to carry far more speed through a corner than an understeer car. It is far more difficult to control than an understeer car, but it is faster and a skilled driver would be able to take advantage of this characteristic.

[MikeTekRacing]

Bourdais' luck was not good to be paired with Vettel. At that moment nobody could know that and Bourdais being pretty close on occasions (and a bit faster at times) seemed like terrible under performing so he got the boot.

 

Years go by and looking at Vettel's statistics Bourdais was not that bad at all. Of course he will talk Vettel up

[noikeee]

I'm quite surprised Bourdais has actually something good to say about someone else, nevermind a team-mate that beat him, in his one and only F1 chance no less. Bourdais has always sounded like an immensely bitter individual in right about anything he says.

 

I have to disagree, not his success at such a young age raises dislike towards his persona, but his arrogance, asocial behaviour and his boasting: finger, derogatory comments about other drivers and his team-mate which shows a lack of respect towards others.

 

Asocial behaviour? What?

 

It is common knowledge that a racing car is always designed/set up with oversteer tendency because of its ability to carry far more speed through a corner than an understeer car. It is far more difficult to control than an understeer car, but it is faster and a skilled driver would be able to take advantage of this characteristic.

 

No that's total bullshit and one of the biggest myths in racing. Oversteer makes you lose time just like understeer makes you lose time, what you ideally want is a car that is planted and has neither behaviour, although a car pushed to the limit rarely manages to be fully neutral and stable. What happens is that a lot of popular talented drivers are comfortable with oversteer and it looks cool so it's been romanticized to death.

[wj_gibson]

Bourdais acquitted himself reasonably well against Vettel in hindsight. Unfortunately, it was the "not acquitting himself well" against Buemi that rather threw him into disarray.

 

Perhaps with 4 titles under his belt elsewhere he felt that F1 might come a bit more "naturally" than it would; which wouldn't be surprising, tbh.

[Mauseri]

I have to disagree, not his success at such a young age raises dislike towards his persona, but his arrogance, asocial behaviour and his boasting: finger, derogatory comments about other drivers and his team-mate which shows a lack of respect towards others.

Winners will always have haters.

[Baddoer]

Not that impressive once you consider that only 6 drivers actually finished the - rather chaotic - race.

For a rookie in a very slow car - impressive as it is. He was well keeping Alonso and Kovalainen behind which is already an achievement.

Edited by Baddoer, 04 September 2013 - 09:51.

[sv401]

For a rookie in a very slow car - impressive as it is. He was well keeping Alonso and Kovalainen behind which is already an achievement.

 

The Renault was not a particularly great car at the beginning of 2008. Vettel even outqualified Alonso (P10 vs. P12, P21 for Piquet Jr.) at the same race weekend.

[Baddoer]

The Renault was not a particularly great car at the beginning of 2008. Vettel even outqualified Alonso (P10 vs. P12, P21 for Piquet Jr.) at the same race weekend.

Super Aguri was 10 and 11 on the grid and ahead of Williams year before. Qualifying says little about car pace in first races of the season since everyone is yet to find optimal car setup.

[KavB]

Bourdais is very gracious in this interview, I have to admire him for that. Not to put down Vettel's achievement that year at all - to win in a Toro Rosso is a great achievement - but Bourdais' luck was atrocious at the least opportune moments. To be able to put that to one side and view Vettel as a team mate from a less subjective perspective is praiseworthy.

 

A good read.

I agree. His points tally isn't reflective of his efforts in 2008. He was unfairly penalised in Japan, had that engine failure in Australia, stalled his engine in Monza when he could have scored solid points and I recall in Belgium he was on course to get a podium with one lap to go and was beating Vettel all weekend long but dropped to 7th and behind Vettel on the final lap. Vettel beat him convincingly but it wasn't like Bourdais was awful. 

 

He was never going to be a top driver, but he was fairly solid. Now that we've seen Vettel dominate F1, we can say with hindsight that Bourdais was a pretty good driver. 

[sv401]

Super Aguri was 10 and 11 on the grid and ahead of Williams year before.

 

By 1 position. Super Aguri also was not that bad at the beginning of 2007, and was beating the factory Honda team. Williams was of course better overall, but outqualifying them by a small margin on a street track was not a huge miracle.

 

Qualifying says little about car pace in first races of the season since everyone is yet to find optimal car setup.

 

It does not say less than the result of a very chaotic race with 3 SC periods that is finished by not much more than a handful of drivers. It says enough that it can be reasonably assumed that keeping a Renault behind under the 2008 regulations (no DRS, no KERS, Bridgestone spec tyres, etc.) did not require a superhuman performance.

[DampMongoose]

Winners will always have haters.

 

Only if they go about it the wrong way... Can't recall any criticism of Fangio, Moss, Clark or Hill but then manners and sportsmanship aren't high on Vettel's list of qualities from what I've seen so he cannot be compared with winners of a different age. 

[Ross Stonefeld]

They aren't high on anyone's list so it's unfair to single out Vettel for what is the standard behaviour of modern racing drivers.

[Group B]

I have to disagree, not his success at such a young age raises dislike towards his persona, but his arrogance, asocial behaviour and his boasting: finger, derogatory comments about other drivers and his team-mate which shows a lack of respect towards others.

Save the finger you've just described Lewis Hamilton.

[PNSD]

I'd argue Jenson is the closest we have the classic gentleman driver of the 50's - 70's. In every way he seems to emulate the styles of all of them. 

 

Vettel is very much of the Senna mould of, win at all costs. Likewise Schumacher, Alonso and Lewis. Either way, Vettel is a time champ, and that's the only thing that matters.

 

On Seabass. I always liked him, thought he deserved another fair shot in a different team other than STR. He's shown in IndyCar to be of a different quality to a lot of the other drivers. Pagenaud, Wilson excepted of course.

[Winter98]

Only if they go about it the wrong way... Can't recall any criticism of Fangio, Moss, Clark or Hill but then manners and sportsmanship aren't high on Vettel's list of qualities from what I've seen so he cannot be compared with winners of a different age. 

 

Which of today's top driver's are?  Certainly not FA, LH, or KR.

 

I'm sure if Fangio had lived in the era of the internet, people would have been inventing things to hate about him too after he had won 3xWDCs in a row.

Edited by Winter98, 04 September 2013 - 12:34.

[mnmracer]

Only if they go about it the wrong way... Can't recall any criticism of Fangio, Moss, Clark or Hill but then manners and sportsmanship aren't high on Vettel's list of qualities from what I've seen so he cannot be compared with winners of a different age. 

Considering the response to 'front-wing gate', Fangio would be burned to the stake for taking over the complete car of his team-mates.

 

 

Which of today's top driver's are?  Certainly not FA, LH, or KR.

 

I'm sure if Fangio had lived in the era of the internet, people would have been inventing things to hate about him too after he had won 3xWDCs in a row.

not to mention, in the fastest car.

Edited by mnmracer, 04 September 2013 - 12:57.

[prty]

No that's total bullshit and one of the biggest myths in racing. Oversteer makes you lose time just like understeer makes you lose time, what you ideally want is a car that is planted and has neither behaviour, although a car pushed to the limit rarely manages to be fully neutral and stable. What happens is that a lot of popular talented drivers are comfortable with oversteer and it looks cool so it's been romanticized to death.

 

Lots of people got oversteer-brainwashed.

[HP]

Quite frankly there is no person on this planet who is able to do everything right for everyone. The earlier one starts to relize that, the more the likelyhood of a successful career. Those who don't get that are left behind and often resort to whining, even if it is from a high horses back..

 

Which of today's top driver's are?  Certainly not FA, LH, or KR.

 

I'm sure if Fangio had lived in the era of the internet, people would have been inventing things to hate about him too after he had won 3xWDCs in a row.

Well then Fangio would have also been exposed to the media. And you just could imagine what happened when Fangio used his teammates car to win the championship (while his teammate still had a mathematical chance) . He'd be the biggest egoist, not to mention the team with which that happend, yadda, yadda, etc.

Edited by HP, 04 September 2013 - 13:09.

[HP]

Lots of people got oversteer-brainwashed.

Or simply they don't read interviews with drivers, in which they almost all say that they prefer a neutral car. However in todays F1 with no refueling, and ban on active ride height that is neigh on impossible to achieve.

[pacificquay]

Of course it is also in Bourdais interests to give Vettel as much praise as possible

[prty]

Or simply they don't read interviews with drivers, in which they almost all say that they prefer a neutral car. However in todays F1 with no refueling, and ban on active ride height that is neigh on impossible to achieve.

According to PDLR and Gené during TV transmissions, the current technique in order to protect the rear tyres, is to set it up a bit in the understeery side. That way, qualifying is slower than the theoretical maximum, but in the race it's much more consistent and quicker.

[MikeV1987]

 

No that's total bullshit and one of the biggest myths in racing. Oversteer makes you lose time just like understeer makes you lose time, what you ideally want is a car that is planted and has neither behaviour, although a car pushed to the limit rarely manages to be fully neutral and stable. What happens is that a lot of popular talented drivers are comfortable with oversteer and it looks cool so it's been romanticized to death.

 

 

It is not a myth or bullshit. Watch Raikkonen go through Pouhon, notice the rear of the car stepping out ever so slightly as he flies through that corner (55 seconds). I think thats a good example of what Bourdais means when he talks about Vettel's 'oversteery' style. I wish I could find a good one for Vettel but all I can find is onboards on youtube.

Edited by MikeV1987, 04 September 2013 - 16:13.

[PNSD]

 

It is not a myth or bullshit. Watch Raikkonen go through Pouhon, notice the rear of the car stepping out ever so slightly as he flies through that corner (55 seconds). I think thats a good example of what Bourdais means when he talks about Vettel's 'oversteery' style. I wish I could find a good one for Vettel but all I can find is onboards on youtube.

 

Surely that's a case of too much speed into a corner? 

 

You don't want the back stepping out on a quick corner. Anything that means you are off throttle is bad.

We all know the best way through Pouhon is the downshift before hand to slow the car, then drive through the corner slowly increasing throttle input until you can go full on. 

[MikeV1987]

Also pulled this from another site.

 

"Generally, an F1 car will tend to understeer in slow corners and oversteer in fast ones..... So the more you ‘improve’ its slow-corner balance, the worse you make it in the high-speed turns and vice versa. In a perfect world therefore, the driver more comfortable with oversteer can have a set-up that works better over a lap, as Paddy Lowe explains: “A lot of the performance limit of a car is set by stability in the high-speed zones; if you can’t hang onto it, you will have to introduce understeer in that zone. But if you have a driver better able to deal with oversteer in those zones that induce it, then you will have a less-understeery car elsewhere and therefore more total grip over the lap. The great drivers over the years – Senna, Schumacher, Mansell – have all had that ability. Like for like compared to other drivers, they want more front end.”

But, as ever, there are disclaimers. If the understeer-type driver is able to use that trait to maintain higher minimum corner speeds in the slow turns than the oversteer-type driver, then he benefits from the better stability in the high-speed turns."

 

So in other words, there is no truly neutral set up, the car cannot be set-up perfectly for each and every corner and must instead be compromised for the best balance over the lap as a whole. And as McLaren's Paddy Lowe explains, those most adept at hanging onto oversteer don't have as much of a compromise to make, hence why so many of the great drivers share this trait. 

 

http://f12011-setups...-continued.html

Edited by MikeV1987, 04 September 2013 - 16:22.

[MikeV1987]

Surely that's a case of too much speed into a corner? 

 

We all know the best way through Pouhon is the downshift before hand to slow the car, then drive through the corner slowly increasing throttle input until you can go full on. 

 

 

 I definitely do not think that is a case of carrying too much speed, that is just insanely fast through there. He qualified only a few tenths off of pole, and we all know how fast the F2002 was.

 

Also.

 

 

down one gear, and on full throttle right away.  Button goes through Pouhon conservatively compared to Raikkonen's vid. 

Edited by MikeV1987, 04 September 2013 - 16:50.

[Boxerevo]

Is reallly incredible to see Raikkonen in those Newey cars.

 

Problem was reability.

Edited by Boxerevo, 04 September 2013 - 16:38.