72 replies to this topic

[HoldenRT]

I found Bourdais' comments interesting, especially his belief that initially he thought Seb was lacking mental strength.

 

It might have been true in the beginning but he's definately proven himself by now.

[prty]

 

It is not a myth or bullshit. Watch Raikkonen go through Pouhon, notice the rear of the car stepping out ever so slightly as he flies through that corner (55 seconds). I think thats a good example of what Bourdais means when he talks about Vettel's 'oversteery' style. I wish I could find a good one for Vettel but all I can find is onboards on youtube.

 

I wouldn't call that oversteery, it's more on the neutral zone. The cars are always driven with a small sliding ratio all the time, and every driver does that. The thing is, it's not clear to appreciate in the onboards, but for example in the slow motions it becomes apparent.

If you want an example of an oversteery car, check out how Hamilton set it up in the Malaysian 2007 free practices, or in Silverstone 2007. In fact the latter is a perfect example of it being a bit faster in qualifying, but much slower in the races.

Edited by prty, 04 September 2013 - 16:52.

[MikeV1987]

That is a clear case of an F1 car being slightly oversteery to me, agree to disagree I guess. Not every driver does that either, Button certainly doesn't drive like that.

Edited by MikeV1987, 04 September 2013 - 16:54.

[HoldenRT]

In my mind, Kimi took that corner perfectly.  It might not be the case with 2013 regs, but in those regs, that's pretty close to perfect.  It's not like he lost any speed from it.  Sometimes a bit of slip helps the car turn.

[prty]

That is a clear case of an F1 car being slightly oversteery to me, agree to disagree I guess. Not every driver does that either, Button certainly doesn't drive like that.

 

Here's an example in slow motion, in Eau Rouge (in the clips before you can see a little bit too, but corner entry in the rain tends to be very understeery)

 

[MikeV1987]

If the rear of a car steps out into a slide in the slightest I still consider that oversteer, but it is balanced. Like the article I posted above says, there is no real neutral setup, its all about compromise. I still don't think every driver peddles that way either, not from what I've seen anyway.

Edited by MikeV1987, 04 September 2013 - 17:26.

[prty]

If the rear of a car steps out into a slide in the slightest I still consider that oversteer, like the article I posted above says, there is no real neutral setup, its all about compromise. I still don't think every driver peddles that way either, not from what I've seen anyway.

 

By that definition then practically every racing car is oversteery, but let's agree to disagree.

[pingu666]

theres rotation, or slip, or yaw. its rarely noticeable in f1, or its just a slight amount. its not really oversteer, just a mild version of what the old cars used todo, just how they worked

 

to me the f1 cars seemed slidey out of end of sector 2 at spa, that corner that leads onto the long flat out section of blanchemon.

[Juan Kerr]

Lots of people got oversteer-brainwashed.

what you need is the car to change direction faster and if you can induce a micro slide at the rear it is faster, only because the car has the most power in a straight line as opposed to via the grip in the tyres which doesn't produce the same forces as the engine does. If the engine effective forces were the same as the cornering forces yes a balanced car is best. By having oversteer you can make the track shorter by turning in earlier and slightly short cutting the corners, because the car changes direction better you get on the power earlier compensating for a slower apex speed.All it does is allow you to shorten the track.
Sebastien Bourdais is one of the most competent and diverse racing drivers on the planet, pure world class, if he says oversteer is faster in an F1 and some numpty on an internet forum says otherwise I know who I am gonna listen too!

[HoldenRT]

It's noticable to the drivers while driving but not really noticable to the viewer while watching.  For all F1 cars, they are always sliding around, it's just that they do it so accurately that it's not noticable in every corner.  It's more like micro slides.

[Blackmore]

 He put his own personal goals above those of the team. It shows a lack of class.

 

You must really hate the likes of Senna and Fangio then who could not care less about their teammates (demand their teammate's car/to move over while in the race), their team (jumping to the best car when needed) or even the safety of other drivers on the track (bulldozing another human off the track at 200mph to win a trophy).

 

But then again, they are legendary champions.

 

To me personally, I started respecting Vettel when he refused to be Webber's bitch because the team had been promising Vettel all race that he would get a chance after the pitstops. Asking him to slow down, maintain a gap, then not pass his teammate that was in front because of teamorders earlier anyway... that's not what champions do. RBR was being stupid there and Vettel showed them the proper finger.

 

Ironic was how everyone jumped on the bandwagon of suddenly loving teamorders. It showed the hypocrites.

Edited by Blackmore, 04 September 2013 - 18:50.

[Myrvold]

I said it before.... but Webber did ignore team orders often enough... and he was never a help to Seb. Schumi commented on it saying as he was live at the race (Brazil 2012) he could see that...

Webber didn't deserve Seb doing anything for him...

And you need to go further back to find where it started. I have no idea where, it might be a lot earlier than Turkey 2010 as well - but Brazil 2012, is not, and will never be an excuse for Vettel for straight up, ignore the team order.

[Myrvold]

Well, this is a team sport, and no matter how egocentric he was, Schumacher showed how to be the best in the team, the most egocentric in the team, the most ruthless in the team, and going with the win at all cost mentality. But yet, follow team orders, and being a team player.

[Romulan]

You must really hate the likes of Senna and Fangio then who could not care less about their teammates (demand their teammate's car/to move over while in the race), their team (jumping to the best car when needed) or even the safety of other drivers on the track (bulldozing another human off the track at 200mph to win a trophy).

 

But then again, they are legendary champions.

 

To me personally, I started respecting Vettel when he refused to be Webber's bitch because the team had been promising Vettel all race that he would get a chance after the pitstops. Asking him to slow down, maintain a gap, then not pass his teammate that was in front because of teamorders earlier anyway... that's not what champions do. RBR was being stupid there and Vettel showed them the proper finger.

 

Ironic was how everyone jumped on the bandwagon of suddenly loving teamorders. It showed the hypocrites.

Too funny.  Plain and simple, Sebastian is a warrior.  When it comes to racing I prefer warriors over gentlemen.  And, Marko has exactly what he wants: the best driver in the best car.

[prty]

Sebastien Bourdais is one of the most competent and diverse racing drivers on the planet, pure world class, if he says oversteer is faster in an F1 and some numpty on an internet forum says otherwise I know who I am gonna listen too!

 

Faster in what, qualifying or race distance?

By the way, you appear to have missed this:

 

 

According to PDLR and Gené during TV transmissions, the current technique in order to protect the rear tyres, is to set it up a bit in the understeery side. That way, qualifying is slower than the theoretical maximum, but in the race it's much more consistent and quicker.

 

I indeed know who to trust. But oversteering looks so cool, I agree.
 

 

[prty]

It's noticable to the drivers while driving but not really noticable to the viewer while watching.  For all F1 cars, they are always sliding around, it's just that they do it so accurately that it's not noticable in every corner.  It's more like micro slides.

It's more noticiable with reduced FOVs like in this shoulder cam, see at 28s for example, in T4 mid corner it's noticiable how to rotate the corner, and float it out.

 

 

Or here 1:43:

 

Edited by prty, 04 September 2013 - 21:38.

[noikeee]

It is not a myth or bullshit. Watch Raikkonen go through Pouhon, notice the rear of the car stepping out ever so slightly as he flies through that corner (55 seconds). I think thats a good example of what Bourdais means when he talks about Vettel's 'oversteery' style. I wish I could find a good one for Vettel but all I can find is onboards on youtube.

 

That's a talented driver handling a sensitive car on the limit and immediately catching a slide just as it pops up. If he'd avoided the slide I imagine he'd probably have won a milisecond or two in laptime.

 

That being said I sort of understand what you're saying as I've found myself occasionally taking corners quicker in online simracing by "induced oversteer", getting the car to rotate by itself a little more than usual on purpose. I'm confident that at some level it's a driver comfort thing though, and a neutral car would've been at least just as fast through those corners.

 

Setup's a bit of a ball juggling thing, you cannot be optimized for every single corner over a race distance with the same setup, which is why in some conditions you'd rather have oversteer. Then there's driver comfort, it's a mental thing, you could have 2 identically quick setups one understeery one oversteery and some drivers would be able to nab a much better laptime with one than the other, because they'd feel confident they could push the car. Ideally you would want it neutral every corner though albeit that's not really possible. And surely there are conditions understeer is quicker, in this very thread someone posted at the moment they induce understeer to save tyres as that's the quicker way through a race.

[Lucass]

I thought this thread was about what Bourdais said 

[noikeee]

I thought this thread was about what Bourdais said 

 

He talked about oversteer tending to be the quickest way in F1.

 

But hey let's divert the thread back to measuring Vettel's weiner and whether he's a nice chap or not, that's a lot more interesting that technical talk isn't it. It's not like we don't talk about it every single goddamn thread.

[Sin]

He talked about oversteer tending to be the quickest way in F1.

 

But hey let's divert the thread back to measuring Vettel's weiner and whether he's a nice chap or not, that's a lot more interesting that technical talk isn't it. It's not like we don't talk about it every single goddamn thread.

 

it is to some people technical stuff goes over my head.... xD.... it's like people talking about math or physics....

 

BUT... and that is important not as long as stuff relates to the topic it's fine to talk about it :o... you don't need to take part in discussions that don't intrest you... simple as that :)

 

as far as over and understeer goes.... I always do better with understeer in the game, but that doesn't say anything about reality... yet it's all I can say to it...

 

all in all I am very thankful for this interview to be posted, particulary since I didn't watch at that time it gives you a little insight on how it was back then at Torro Rosso and how the relationship between Seb and Seb was....

 

I really like stories who are about how the drivers get along with each other

Edited by Sin, 04 September 2013 - 22:28.

[Mandzipop]

Posts removed. This has nothing to do with Malaysia 2013, it is about Seb B's comments.

[Romulan]

it is to some people technical stuff goes over my head.... xD.... it's like people talking about math or physics....

 

BUT... and that is important not as long as stuff relates to the topic it's fine to talk about it ... you don't need to take part in discussions that don't intrest you... simple as that

 

as far as over and understeer goes.... I always do better with understeer in the game, but that doesn't say anything about reality... yet it's all I can say to it...

 

all in all I am very thankful for this interview to be posted, particulary since I didn't watch at that time it gives you a little insight on how it was back then at Torro Rosso and how the relationship between Seb and Seb was....

 

I really like stories who are about how the drivers get along with each other

 

Sin, your approximation of reality is a great place to start.  If you set up your car to understeer, your front tires 'slip' more than the rear tires.

[v@sh]

He talked about oversteer tending to be the quickest way in F1.

 

But hey let's divert the thread back to measuring Vettel's weiner and whether he's a nice chap or not, that's a lot more interesting that technical talk isn't it. It's not like we don't talk about it every single goddamn thread.

 

Bourdais is right IMO, because Buemi confirmed the same thing when during testing in 2009 where he commented that Vettel's driving style is the quickest for F1.