74 replies to this topic

[Dozer]

Did you see the part where he got himself in to the WDC lead after Canada, only then to suffer DNF's in 6 of the remaining 13 races, and suspension failures in two others? That's hit and miss is it - all his fault I guess?

 

As he rightly said our opinions will likely differ but I think we also watched different races last year, so frustrating to watch...

 

And I love how we're always being told the McLaren was the fastest car when RBR took the WCC yet again; I'm guessing that's a pretty good gauge for which was the car to have in that particular year?

[Anderis]

1. Bottas

2. Van der Garde

3. Maldonado

4. Alonso

5. Gutierrez

6. Chilton

7. Ricciardo

8. Vergne

9. Grosjean

10. di Resta

11. Raikkonen

12. Perez

13. Button

14. Pic

15. Webber

16. Rosberg

17. Vettel

18. Hulkenberg

19. Massa

20. Hamilton

21. Sutil

22. Bianchi

[Mendel]

I see your point. However, your post alone has already made this thread worth posting as it gave me a lot to think about. Also, whereas any post with just a list may not be more than a vote in popularity contest, I am enjoying posts that include not only ranking but also driver analysis (like zoetropes post) for several drivers that I haven´t been following so much

 

 

I don't like these threads because all they really come down to is a popularity contest.  Nobody has any clue about the raw natural speed of Valteri Bottas in a Formula 1 car as compared with Sebastian Vettel or Lewis Hamilton even if they could define exactly what they mean by 'raw natural speed'.

 

Here we're being asked to rank them by "...subjective average speed [but factoring] in absolute speed and deviance/mistake frequency." 

 

Drivers who start at the front make less mistakes because they get less first corner crowding.  Drivers in the top teams do not have to slow down or deviate from their line three or four times a lap as they are lapped.  I have seen Grosjean do some really stupid stuff and I have seen him overcompensate to make sure he doesn't have something stupid done to him.  Some drivers will fight for position and be at greater risk of collision and others don't and crash less.  Subjectively, where do these 'errors' come?

 

My favourite example from a few years ago was Rubens Barrichello.  Never at #1 for anyone, but regularly rated in the top five on the grid for all the years he was at Ferrari.  After the move to Honda in 2006 he didn't even rate in anyone's top ten but fast forward to 2009 and there he was in the top five again.  This is the Autosport annual rankings, by the way, so people who ought to know a bit about how the drivers are thought of in the pitlane too.

 

We will be able to do the same for Ricciardo soon.  He's languishing in the lower midfield of most people's lists exactly where his car leaves him most race weekends, but next year he will start on the front row a few times, maybe even in front of Seb once or twice, and will get a podium or win (assuming RB continue as they have).  He'll have less first lap incidents and not have to ****** his speed for anyone lapping him.

 

He will not be a better driver than he is today or have more 'raw speed' but he'll be well up the rankings.  Probably.*

 

So I will decline to answer in any more detail than this; it is no accident that some drivers are paid a lot more money than others or are given preferential treatment within their teams.  Whether this is down to their natural ability as drivers or as politicians, is much more difficult to discern or udnerstand but the cream does rise to the top.  While you can look at who is there at the top, and their length of time in post, it does not mean that the drivers new to the sport or in lesser teams have less ability.

 

In my view, this question can only be properly answered in hindsight.

 

 

*No promises, obviously.

Edited by Mendel, 04 September 2013 - 18:26.

[ANF]

1. Bottas

2. Van der Garde

3. Maldonado

4. Alonso

5. Gutierrez

6. Chilton

7. Ricciardo

8. Vergne

9. Grosjean

10. di Resta

11. Raikkonen

12. Perez

13. Button

14. Pic

15. Webber

16. Rosberg

17. Vettel

18. Hulkenberg

19. Massa

20. Hamilton

21. Sutil

22. Bianchi

Nooooo! That's impossible!!!

[DampMongoose]

As he rightly said our opinions will likely differ but I think we also watched different races last year, so frustrating to watch...

 

And I love how we're always being told the McLaren was the fastest car when RBR took the WCC yet again; I'm guessing that's a pretty good gauge for which was the car to have in that particular year?

 

Who's said that the McLaren was fastest? I certainly didn't, I said two of the drivers (RAI and ALO) had inferior cars which based on team performance I would say was pretty safe? Also to Undersquare I'd say that generally some drivers are harder on cars than others given that luck only goes so far, plus Button doesn't have as many contacts with other drivers given he's a bit more sensible generally, so in my opinion without my TV, as you keep trying to (unsuccessfully) hammer that same 'joke' home, I'd say he may well be at fault for some of the time... no doubt you'll prove me wrong though!   

[Buttoneer]

I see your point. However, your post alone has already made this thread worth posting as it gave me a lot to think about. Also, whereas any post with just a list may not be more than a vote in popularity contest, I am enjoying posts that include not only ranking but also driver analysis (like zoetropes post) for several drivers that I haven´t been following so much

Hi Mendel,

 

I certainly didn't intend to discourage people from posting their views on the subject and I agree that where they come with some analysis or even a simple acknowledgement of the limitations of knowledge ("I can't comment on x, y or z because I have not paid attention" for example) they are still interesting.

[Dozer]

Who's said that the McLaren was fastest? I certainly didn't, I said two of the drivers (RAI and ALO) had inferior cars which based on team performance I would say was pretty safe? Also to Undersquare I'd say that generally some drivers are harder on cars than others given that luck only goes so far, plus Button doesn't have as many contacts with other drivers given he's a bit more sensible generally, so in my opinion without my TV, as you keep trying to (unsuccessfully) hammer that same 'joke' home, I'd say he may well be at fault for some of the time... no doubt you'll prove me wrong though!   

 

 

Apologies if I inferred you stated that, I've been reading here for yonks and seen it stated as fact...

 

I think the myth that Lewis is hard on his machinery has been pretty much debunked already, this year is testament to that too. Similarly I don't recall him hitting a driver recently?

 

The young lad (gangster wannabe or not) is maturing nicely and whilst maintaining his obscene speed is adding consistency which is a pleasure to watch; his list of scalps is surely enviable and is what made me rank him no.1.

Edited by Dozer, 04 September 2013 - 19:00.

[starp]

Vettel

Raikkonen

Hamilton/Alonso

 

I think Alonso and Raikkonen have the best racecraft but, when he does not have the best car in F1, Alonso can sometimes lose the plot and drop the ball a little more than the others.  Hamilton was that way for about 4 years.  He would stuff it like clockwork at the end of every season.  But he has matured tremendously since.  He may be as fast as Vettel and Raikkonen but does not appear the same level of racecraft.  Racecraft is important, I think it is why Button was able to beat him on points at McLaren.  I also think he is a tad faster than Alonso though without that racecraft.  Fortunately, he is still young, so I expect we will see how he compares to Vettel in the future one way or another.  Who knows with Raikkonen.  For years he seemed to be the best behind Schumacher only stuck in team with hopeless reliability, and then the last 2 years at Ferrari there seemed to be a lot of odd strategies and development directions that I suspect were related to chaos within the team behind the scenes.  But 2003-2007 he was truly incredible and now 2012-2013 have pretty much been the same.  Vettel is simply rock solid and as fast as anyone.  Does he have Alonso or Raikkonen racecraft?  Maybe not.  But he's really stomped everyone in a car that Webber really shows has not always been the best.

 

What I would have liked the most next season would have been Raikkonen at Red Bull against Vettel.

[Group B]

Buttoneer already pointed out all the flaws in this exercise, but for what it's worth my top dozen in the order I'd hire them based on 2012/13 form;

 

Alonso

Vettel

Hamilton

Raikkonen

Rosberg

Button

Webber

Hulkenberg

Grosjean

Sutil

Di Resta

Massa

[OO7]

I don't like these threads because all they really come down to is a popularity contest...................

I completely agree.  We see the same thing in the Driver of the Race thread after every race weekend, with posters pretty much judging the cars, teams, strategies etc rather than the drivers.

[Xeriks]

All I'm saying is that in a situation where I had to pick drivers for a team, I would choose Hamilton last out of the 5 I mentioned, because he makes some daft mistakes and has more off-track issues that appear to affect his performances than the others do.  For consistent speed over a season which is what the thread is about, I don't rate him as highly.

Hamilton is inconsistent? when was the last time he made a real mistake? Valencia with Maldonado? I'm not sure how you can even bring up off track issues affecting him, since it clearly hasn't for a while now.

[Winter98]

As he rightly said our opinions will likely differ but I think we also watched different races last year, so frustrating to watch...

 

And I love how we're always being told the McLaren was the fastest car when RBR took the WCC yet again; I'm guessing that's a pretty good gauge for which was the car to have in that particular year?

 

Meh. 

 

One thing I've noticed is that when someone's favourite driver wins the WDC, it's in a car that might be tied for best, but usually 2nd or 3rd best on the grid.  When a driver they really dislike wins the WDC, the car is an absolute rocket, and far far quicker than the rest of the grid.  The disliked driver apparently doing the car a disservice on the way to the WDC.

Edited by Winter98, 05 September 2013 - 03:51.

[William Hunt]

It is a bit surprising how people keep underrating Rosberg by always putting him below Hamilton. Imho Rosberg has done at least as good as Hamilton this year, in fact: on many occasions he was better as Hamilton: few people had expected this. And he did score 2 wins already. I guess it's because the majority of the users of this forum are Brittish, on a German language forum I am pretty sure we wouldn't see this trend.

[Lights]

I'm sad whenever I see Webber behind Button.  It's easy to do it, WDC, etc etc.  But   Button isn't a driver I consider to have a high average speed.  He's very smooth, consistant and is great over a stint but also more gentle than others.  Webber is at the end of his career but even so, raw speed has rarely been his problem.  It's like Webber and Button are the exact opposite, one is over aggressive and one is ultra smooth.  But the ultra aggressive is usually quicker (until the tyres wear out).  Button's like the ultimate one stop driver, and Webber is the ultimate 3 stop driver.  There are moments when Button is trully quick, blinding quick but you can say the same for Webber, I just mean in general.  Button's also more inconsistant and sensitive to setup and more likely to end up 14th on the grid after a bad quali and whinging about the car setup all weekend.  I guess it's hard to compare such different styles when they have never driven against each other.  Button's just not a driver I associate with the word quick, it's just that he has all the smarts and talents to make up for this with other ways.  Unless it's one of those rare weekends where he just nails it.  His pole in the Honda in Australia 2006 was awesome.

 

I think it's a flawed perception that aggressive is faster than smooth. Perhaps it looks faster. Plus the differences in driving styles are often exaggerated anyway.

 

Fact is, for Jenson to win the races he did, he had to have the highest average speed. Meaning all other cars had a lower average speed, because else they would have won... Cheesy, I know.

 

Jenson had very strong seasons earlier in his career too when sprint races were the norm. I've long accepted that his speed will always be underrated, that's just how it is. You're right that he's more sensitive to setup issues, but on the other hand he's cunning and probably the least error-prone driver on the grid. Which are also qualities that contribute to the quality of a driver.

[DampMongoose]

Hamilton is inconsistent? when was the last time he made a real mistake? Valencia with Maldonado? I'm not sure how you can even bring up off track issues affecting him, since it clearly hasn't for a while now.

 

If you are going to rank drivers it makes sense to me that you should use as much information about their abilites rather than their most recent form.  With that in mind I consider that his past performances (not necessarily this season) have been affected by off-track personal issues which led to mistakes in his driving and racecraft, this is not something that the others mentioned have shown.  As a result, at this point in history I don't believe he has proven he is as consistently quick compared to the others mentioned. 

[revlec]

Hamilton is inconsistent? when was the last time he made a real mistake? Valencia with Maldonado? I'm not sure how you can even bring up off track issues affecting him, since it clearly hasn't for a while now.

 

It's a fact that people watch different races.

Hamilton will never win.

[seldo]

Trouble is, it's so hard to rank the drivers on ability alone when the car is such an important part of the package. For a start, the back of the pack, driving 2nd rate cars, rarely get a decent share of tv coverage and therefore it's very hard to observe them and make a valid critique. because they are invariably underfunded, all sorts of short-cuts are taken by the team, further under-mining the efforts and results of the team and ergo, of the drivers.
The only way that any of these guys can ever get a bit of a chance is by being invited to have a steer in a competent car at one of the Young Drivers Test Days, and then....just ask Daniel Ricciardo, wonders can happen.
How can we genuinely rate a driver who is running last in the field even if he is driving the worst car in the field? He might be potentially the next Senna/Fangio/Schumacher/Alonso/Vettel....but how are we to know?

[Buttoneer]

Those who were watching Minardi in 2001 spotted Alonso being brilliant and of course Vettel did particularly well in STR so it is possible to talent scout the back of the grid, but the circumstances to need to be right and in 2001 there were many more retirements than we get today so easier to be seen.

[DampMongoose]

Those who were watching Minardi in 2001 spotted Alonso being brilliant and of course Vettel did particularly well in STR so it is possible to talent scout the back of the grid, but the circumstances to need to be right and in 2001 there were many more retirements than we get today so easier to be seen.

 

It was much easier in the past to see the progression of drivers ability in the lower formulae.  Particularly when the F1 regulars all drove F2 as well and you could benchmark them.  Plus it was far easier given the lack of series, but recently we've lost the way because of the number of single seat series we now have, FR3.5, GP2, F2, AUTOGP, A1GP (although they're thinning out recently)...

 

The first measure is how they perform against their team mates...  when one car in a team starts upsetting the cars generally in the tier above eg. Force India in the top 4 or Marrussia's in Q2 that sort of thing, you have more of an idea of who the better drivers are. 

[DutchQuicksilver]

I believe there's been a similar topic before. Anyway, my ranking:

 

A-class drivers - Drivers who have that little extra bit of talent

Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel

 

B-class drivers - Drivers who could occasionally win a race, solid number two's to the A-class drivers

Button, Hülkenberg, Rosberg, Sutil, Webber

 

C-class drivers - Good points scorers capable of a few high's, but also low's in a season

Bianchi, Bottas, Grosjean, Di Resta, Maldonado, Massa, Pérez, Ricciardo, Vergne

 

D-class drivers - Drivers to complete the grid, nothing special about them

Chilton, Gutiérrez, Pic, Van der Garde

[Lights]

It is a bit surprising how people keep underrating Rosberg by always putting him below Hamilton. Imho Rosberg has done at least as good as Hamilton this year, in fact: on many occasions he was better as Hamilton: few people had expected this. And he did score 2 wins already. I guess it's because the majority of the users of this forum are Brittish, on a German language forum I am pretty sure we wouldn't see this trend.

 

On which occasions? I can only count two: Barcelona and Monaco.

[mnmracer]

It was much easier in the past to see the progression of drivers ability in the lower formulae.  Particularly when the F1 regulars all drove F2 as well and you could benchmark them.  Plus it was far easier given the lack of series, but recently we've lost the way because of the number of single seat series we now have, FR3.5, GP2, F2, AUTOGP, A1GP (although they're thinning out recently)...

 

The first measure is how they perform against their team mates...  when one car in a team starts upsetting the cars generally in the tier above eg. Force India in the top 4 or Marrussia's in Q2 that sort of thing, you have more of an idea of who the better drivers are. 

Had you heard about Alonso in Formula Nissan, or Vettel in Formula BMW?

[bub]

1. Alonso / Hamilton / Vettel

4. Raikkonen

5. Button / Rosberg

7. Hulkenberg / Ricciardo

9. Webber

10 di Resta / Sutil

12. Grosjean

13. Perez

14. Massa

15. Maldonado

16. Vergne

17. Bottas

18. Bianchi

19. Pic / van der Garde

21. Gutierrez

22. Chilton

Edited by bub, 07 September 2013 - 14:33.

[Jeordie]

1. Vettel

2. Alonso

3. Hamilton

4. Raikkonen

Kubica

---------------------------

5. Webber

6. Button

7. Rosberg

8. Hulkenberg

9. Bianchi

10. Perez

11. Ricciardo

12. Massa

13. Grosjean

14. di Resta

15. Maldonado

16. Sutil

17. Bottas

18. Vergne

19. Van Der Garde

20. Pic

21. Gutierrez

22. Chilton

[DampMongoose]

Had you heard about Alonso in Formula Nissan, or Vettel in Formula BMW?

Yes I read autosport every week back then and remember the uproar of Kimi being granted a superlicense too, but for spectators without meaningful benchmarks like we used to have with F2 its hard to single out the quality drivers from those in series with a lack of competition...