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Monza 2013: FP1, FP2, FP3 AND Qualifying


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#601 Racer3

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 14:53

Well this gets interesting.

 

http://adamcooperf1....gs-on-the-grid/

True, Alonso certainly won't have great diffculties getting past the rear wings of Massa, Hülkenberg and even Webber, so it will be between him and Vettel.



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#602 stillOrange

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 14:53

What is he looking for? :wave:

His old friend ;)

#603 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 14:53

Well, nevertheless he was still faster in Q3 without a tow, than his tow-aided lap of Q2. We don't know how much it helps but it can easily help a few tenths, so why are you so surprised? From what I saw, it just looked like he was getting everything out of it, and Massa ahead of him was doing the exact same thing just 1 hundred of a second faster. You say it looks scrappy but you can't really point out where he lost any time. The drama that follows here is more interesting than Alonso not improving more than 1 tenth on his previous tow-aided lap to qualify 5th in a Ferrari. 

Others normally improved their times by 3 tenths. Alonso improved by a tenth. Let's say this is the effect of tow. But Alonso set his Q2 time at the beginning of Q2 while others set their time at the end of Q2 and surely there is some time difference associated with this. I don't think the kind of towing effect Ferrari was practicising was more than 4 tenths. The part where Alonso looked scrappy was the chicance exit sequence following Curva Grande, I think. Both his braking and exit looked scrappy.


Edited by SpaMaster, 07 September 2013 - 15:00.


#604 XAXIXAX

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 14:58

:lol:

Yes, because the Autosport forum is a perfect sample of the real world out there; and all of the forumers here voted (this is the first I hear about that poll).

 

No offense, but this is another example of posting an opinion as if it were a fact.

 

:rotfl:  I didn't vote, neither.

I'm fine with everybody has his own fav driver, etc. but the amount of bashing on Alonso is  :eek:



#605 Sin

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:06

True, Alonso certainly won't have great diffculties getting past the rear wings of Massa, Hülkenberg and even Webber, so it will be between him and Vettel.

 

unless he pulls of another Malaysia 2013.... :p and talking bout Alonso now


Edited by Sin, 07 September 2013 - 15:06.


#606 Lights

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:15

Others normally improved their times by 3 tenths. Alonso improved by a tenth. Let's say this is the effect of tow. But Alonso set his Q2 time at the beginning of Q2 while others set their time at the end of Q2 and surely there is some time difference associated with this. I don't think the kind of towing effect Ferrari was practicising was more than 4 tenths. The part where Alonso looked scrappy was the chicance exit sequence following Curva Grande, I think. Both his braking and exit looked scrappy.

You're really milking this now. Vettel and Rosberg improved just 2 tenths. Ricciardo, Button & Perez improved less than 1 tenth, just like Alonso. Massa just improved the most of everyone, resulting in some to think Alonso messed up. The Ferrari was never going to challenge Red Bull on raw pace today, they tried with the tow but that didn't work out well on the last run, yet they managed their best qualifying result in quite some time with good laps of both drivers. I think it's time to get over it.



#607 study

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:28

3 Place grid drop for Sutil



#608 Lucass

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:29

You're really milking this now. Vettel and Rosberg improved just 2 tenths. Ricciardo, Button & Perez improved less than 1 tenth, just like Alonso. Massa just improved the most of everyone, resulting in some to think Alonso messed up. The Ferrari was never going to challenge Red Bull on raw pace today, they tried with the tow but that didn't work out well on the last run, yet they managed their best qualifying result in quite some time with good laps of both drivers. I think it's time to get over it.

Exactly my thoughts! Surely a pole in front of the tifosi was the goal but the Bulls were untouchable today.

Still from this position Alonso should be able to be on Mark's tale within a lap and from there on hopefully challenge the Bulls maybe with the help of the weather. I too prefer to see the glass half-full for Ferrari after today.



#609 Clatter

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:31

Others normally improved their times by 3 tenths. Alonso improved by a tenth. Let's say this is the effect of tow. But Alonso set his Q2 time at the beginning of Q2 while others set their time at the end of Q2 and surely there is some time difference associated with this. I don't think the kind of towing effect Ferrari was practicising was more than 4 tenths. The part where Alonso looked scrappy was the chicance exit sequence following Curva Grande, I think. Both his braking and exit looked scrappy.

He was so far back that he could have been affected more by the dirty air than gaining from the tow. That could be part of the reason for looking scrappy.



#610 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:32

I definitely think Alonso's little oversteer moment coming out of the 2nd chicane cost him at least a tenth, and thus 3rd place. 



#611 fisssssi

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:33

Nando needs one of these tomorrow:

 



#612 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:36

You're really milking this now. Vettel and Rosberg improved just 2 tenths. Ricciardo, Button & Perez improved less than 1 tenth, just like Alonso. Massa just improved the most of everyone, resulting in some to think Alonso messed up. The Ferrari was never going to challenge Red Bull on raw pace today, they tried with the tow but that didn't work out well on the last run, yet they managed their best qualifying result in quite some time with good laps of both drivers. I think it's time to get over it.

Lights, I am trying to have a conversation in decent terms mainly given your posting history. If you are going to say 'milking this', 'get over it', you can expect a similar tone from me. Webber, Hulkenberg and Massa improved by 3 tenths, agree with Rosberg and Vettel, but not interested in other slower cars. Among the top cars, Alonso's improvement was the lowest. Tow or not, Alonso was slower than Massa, period.  Massa's gap to Vettel, Webber and Hulkenberg has remained the same in Q3 from Q2, so I don't think Massa pulled one out of the bag in Q3 and his performance must have remained as abysmal as it has always been throughout the weekend. Given that Alonso made his run very early in Q2, there are enough reasons to suggest that Alonso's time was not good. If you find fault with any of this logic, please feel free to address it without any condescending statements. I can't see how Alonso's performance is okay given that his time was slower than two cars that were only equal or slower than his.


Edited by SpaMaster, 07 September 2013 - 15:39.


#613 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:37

He was so far back that he could have been affected more by the dirty air than gaining from the tow. That could be part of the reason for looking scrappy.

That is definitely a possibility.


 



#614 eronrules

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:45

Sutil penalised for holding up Hamilton

 

 

 

 

Adrian Sutil has been handed a three-place grid drop for impeding Lewis Hamilton during qualifying. The stewards said Sutil’s blocking was “not intentional” 
 

Edited by eronrules, 07 September 2013 - 15:47.


#615 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:56

Weren't they both about to start their flying laps, though? 



#616 SanDiegoGo

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:56

Yeah, he was drunk and stumbled into Hamilton's path. Luckily he wasn't holding a glass at the time :lol:



#617 Clatter

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:58

Weren't they both about to start their flying laps, though? 

Nope. Sutil was, Hamilton was already on his.



#618 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 15:58

Ah ok. 



#619 Lights

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 16:18

Lights, I am trying to have a conversation in decent terms mainly given your posting history. If you are going to say 'milking this', 'get over it', you can expect a similar tone from me. Webber, Hulkenberg and Massa improved by 3 tenths, agree with Rosberg and Vettel, but not interested in other slower cars. Among the top cars, Alonso's improvement was the lowest. Tow or not, Alonso was slower than Massa, period.  Massa's gap to Vettel, Webber and Hulkenberg has remained the same in Q3 from Q2, so I don't think Massa pulled one out of the bag in Q3 and his performance must have remained as abysmal as it has always been throughout the weekend. Given that Alonso made his run very early in Q2, there are enough reasons to suggest that Alonso's time was not good. If you find fault with any of this logic, please feel free to address it without any condescending statements. I can't see how Alonso's performance is okay given that his time was slower than two cars that were only equal or slower than his.

 

I'm talking this way because it's a bit tiring to have a long discussion over literally such small amounts of time with no data to back it up at all. Neither of us has access to telemetry data so it seems a bit futile for both of us to discuss it in this depth. You keep hammering over how Alonso in your opinion lost as little as a tenth by being scrappy (because that's as far as this can go). I'm sure it wasn't a perfect lap, like I know none of the laps were. I still think he didn't improve as much as the others because the others didn't have a well working tow in Q2. If you get that tow working well around Monza, that will definitely deliver 2 tenths or more, and that's what Ferrari managed in Q2. If it didn't give that advantage, they wouldn't have even attempted it. His Q2 lap might have been set some minutes before the others', but I doubt that's worth more than a well working tow.

 

But if you want to go into details, no, Massa's gap to Vettel didn't remain the same. In Q2 he was 0.502 behind, in Q3 this was reduced to 0.377. I could now start a discussion on how scrappy Vettel's lap must have been to not improve the same as some other drivers and claim he should have improved at least an extra tenth, but I feel like I shouldn't....



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#620 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 16:47

If it stays dry tomorrow, we could be in for the most boring race of the season. Red Bulls flying off in the distance, whilst Hülkenberg holds up the Ferrari's for a lap or two.



#621 Anderis

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 17:03

whilst Hülkenberg holds up the Ferrari's for a lap or two.

It may well not happen due to those all great Ferrari's starts.

 

Funny thing about Hulkenberg, though. Every time he makes on of his impressive performances, some people say it's just one time and we shouldn't judge a driver by one performance. Malaysia 2010, Brazil 2010, Korea 2012, Brazil 2012, Italy 2013 etc. it's just all like one the same one-off according to some. :p



#622 stulbenis

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 17:15

Webbo Kers issue ..after 1st lap 10th



#623 OldSoldier2

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 17:25

Webbo Kers issue ..after 1st lap 10th

This has been debunked elsewhere on this forum. MW has as about as any failures over their years together as SV. Mark will fight tomorrow for a good result and a podium. And if SV is truly favored, why would RBR want your prediction? Best to keep Mark between Seb and the competition. And the Multi 21 was in whose favor?



#624 bub

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 17:27

Webbo Kers issue ..after 1st lap 10th

 

Probably



#625 vista

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 18:08

How long to the first corner from the start grid? It should be an interesting start.



#626 sopa

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 18:23

Tomorrow. Race order after first lap: 1. Vettel, 2. Alonso, 3. Massa, ..., 7. Webber. :p



#627 John Player

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 18:35

I'm hoping for rain and/or alternator problem :lol:



#628 northanmonkee

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 19:50

just for fun i want massa to win tommorrow  then see all the forum topics explode  about who goes where  :p



#629 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 19:58

How long to the first corner from the start grid? It should be an interesting start.

In F1 we have the shortest run to the first corner followed by the longest run to the first corner (or is it Barcelona, anyway Spa-Francorchamps and Monza starts are so contrasting). The thing with one of the longest run-down is greeted by the tightest corner in the end.


 



#630 Afterburner

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 20:13

I'm hoping for rain and/or alternator problem :lol:

 

Alternator problems are soooo last year. It's a gearbox issue you're hoping for. :p



#631 HeadFirst

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 20:21

I think the issue could well be Webber. Both Alonso and Massa are good off the line, but poor old Webber often seems to have difficulty finding the "GO" button.



#632 V3TT3L

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 20:47

Hulkenbergs car can't be legal. This is impossible...

Sauber made a car specialyzed for fast tracks.

It has narrower sidepods and passive DRS tunnels in the nose.



#633 rasul

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 21:45

just for fun i want massa to win tommorrow  then see all the forum topics explode  about who goes where  :p

Just for fun, I want Massa to say "f*** you" to team orders and not to move out of Alonso's way--and see Alonso and this forum explode.

It looks like Massa is going to lose his seat anyway. What does he have to lose? Deep down, the man has to have some pride. Very deep down.



#634 Mandzipop

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 22:11

I'm not sure whether it means or how significant this is but what nobody seems to have mentioned is what the atmosphere was at Ferrari prior to the radio message being leaked were. I can't post a link but just after Q3 was over, Crofty and Brundle went down to Ted and he said the only person in the Ferrari garage smiling was Rob Smedley.



#635 Clatter

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 22:20

I'm not sure whether it means or how significant this is but what nobody seems to have mentioned is what the atmosphere was at Ferrari prior to the radio message being leaked were. I can't post a link but just after Q3 was over, Crofty and Brundle went down to Ted and he said the only person in the Ferrari garage smiling was Rob Smedley.

I think that was a throw away comment and not an actual observation.



#636 jrg19

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 22:25

Anyone notice Sutil now follows Lewis on twitter... subtle message of I'm coming for you...



#637 P123

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 22:26

I think that was a throw away comment and not an actual observation.

 

A normal Ted comment then.



#638 Atreiu

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 22:29

Nando needs one of these tomorrow:

https://www.youtube....h?v=iJO3xNMgmuU


I wonder if the four wheels in the track within white lines doesn't count on starts.
Great start anyhow, Nobody beats Alonso on first lap moves nowadays.

#639 Atreiu

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 22:31

Anyone notice Sutil now follows Lewis on twitter... subtle message of I'm coming for you...


Lewis didnt block him because it's better to keep your enemies closer.

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#640 Enzoluis

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 22:36

Others normally improved their times by 3 tenths. Alonso improved by a tenth. Let's say this is the effect of tow. But Alonso set his Q2 time at the beginning of Q2 while others set their time at the end of Q2 and surely there is some time difference associated with this. I don't think the kind of towing effect Ferrari was practicising was more than 4 tenths. The part where Alonso looked scrappy was the chicance exit sequence following Curva Grande, I think. Both his braking and exit looked scrappy.

 

You are right he bloked tires at the entrance and lost time in all the variant, I think he missed the brking point.

FA should focus in drive fast and let the team do his job, if he is not confident in whaat the team does better look for other team.



#641 mtojay

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 22:52

:rotfl:  I didn't vote, neither.

I'm fine with everybody has his own fav driver, etc. but the amount of bashing on Alonso is  :eek:

 

be happy that you are not a vettel fan. the hate towards alonso today is nothing compared to the hate vettel gets THE WHOLE YEAR! :|



#642 OO7

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 22:59

Lewis didnt block him because it's better to keep your enemies closer.

Saturday was a display of an enemy being too close.



#643 Puhoon

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 23:05

I wonder if the four wheels in the track within white lines doesn't count on starts.
Great start anyhow, Nobody beats Alonso on first lap moves nowadays.

Well, he drove a red car so the rule is not so strict.



#644 V3TT3L

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 23:11

Sutil is not a follower... he's a stalker  :eek:

 

Anyway... how Sutil got his penalty ? Did McLaren camp filled a protest or the marshalls release the penalty on their own ?

 

200px-Revenge_season_2_DVD.jpg



#645 Moosed

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 23:24

chances of rain are ?



#646 study

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 23:25

Sutil is not a follower... he's a stalker  :eek:

 

Anyway... how Sutil got his penalty ? Did McLaren camp filled a protest or the marshalls release the penalty on their own ?

 

200px-Revenge_season_2_DVD.jpg

 

From the BBC at the time it sounded like the marshalls launched their own investigation.



#647 slmk

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 23:55

chances of rain are ?

 

Good. Well, depending on the forecast, it is likely to rain late in the afternoon; how late, we don't know yet. 

 

It could also rain in the morning, so we may have a green track; unclear whether it will rain at the start. 



#648 f1motogp

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 00:28

Welldone Massa! While he had to drive as Fred's lap dog and had to slow down to give him a tow he still was able to beat Fred. We know what would have happened for the race if he had qualyfied on the clean side of the track and Fred on the dirty side.



#649 Fontainebleau

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 00:49

Welldone Massa! While he had to drive as Fred's lap dog and had to slow down to give him a tow he still was able to beat Fred. We know what would have happened for the race if he had qualyfied on the clean side of the track and Fred on the dirty side.

Let me guess... in every single occasion that Massa has outqualified Alonso, except for one, what has happened is that he has started in the position he qualified in. I am sure that you are referring to that majority of occasions and not to the one single exception when you make that comment! So what would have happened would have been Massa starting in the position he qualified in. Did I get it right?



#650 Mauseri

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 00:50

Welldone Massa! While he had to drive as Fred's lap dog and had to slow down to give him a tow he still was able to beat Fred. We know what would have happened for the race if he had qualyfied on the clean side of the track and Fred on the dirty side.

I don't understand this Ferrari way of trying to give Alonso a tow. Didn't they complain about dirty air in 2006 for ruining Massa's lap and FIA penalized Alonso for that?

 

Alonso looked like sliding a bit too much in the dirty air.


Edited by Mauseri, 08 September 2013 - 00:51.