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Monza 2013: FP1, FP2, FP3 AND Qualifying


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#51 Shiroo

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:22

Red Bull are slow at the end of the straight line but they are the fastest to reach high top speed because their awesome traction and short gearing. I would love to see a comparaison with all the car from parabolica to the first chicane, i'm sure the Red Bull is the fastest car to travel the main straight.

 

Two years ago, despite their low top speed, they had the higher top speed of all teams at the finish line.

 

This. They can probably carry more speed at the start of the start-finish straight, and with DRS open during a race, they will go past anyone anyway. Especially when the car ahead of them won't be able to use DRS



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#52 Massa

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:25

Everybody talk about top speed at Monza but it's not exact, the most important thing to have is traction.

1- Traction

2- Braking ability

3- Good at riding the kerb

and then, top speed.

 

The only track where top speed was a must have, is the old Hockenheim.



#53 speednerd

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:31

Everybody talk about top speed at Monza but it's not exact, the most important thing to have is traction.

1- Traction

2- Braking ability

3- Good at riding the kerb

and then, top speed.

 

The only track where top speed was a must have, is the old Hockenheim.

 

Yes and no.... the only track in the current calender where top speed is a significant differentiator is Monza.



#54 Lights

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:37

Yes and no.... the only track in the current calender where top speed is a significant differentiator is Monza.

 

No, he's right. Top speed is a bit overrated.

 

2 years ago Vettel got pole and win with the lowest top speed of the whole grid.


Edited by Lights, 06 September 2013 - 11:38.


#55 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:39

Yes and no.... the only track in the current calender where top speed is a significant differentiator is Monza.

One look at the speed trap figures kind of destroys that notion, though.  The Force India's and Toro Rosso's shouldn't be that far down if it was that significant a differentiator. 

 

Top speed is always nice.  But its more complicated than saying top speed = good around Monza when you factor in DRS and the different rules of use for it between qualifying and raceday, gearing and acceleration.



#56 Massa

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:40

I don't think top speed is a big factor like traction and braking anymore, with limited rev limiter. I really think nowadays the car who shine at Monza are car who have awesome traction and braking ability, like F10 in 2010, RB in 2011 last year it's true that Ferrari didn't have a very good traction but the F2012 was the best car of the weekend easily, and this year i think it will be Mercedes and Red Bull and both have very good traction.


Edited by Massa, 06 September 2013 - 11:41.


#57 SamH123

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:44

Christian Horner said they are aiming for a podium this week

He very much made it sound like they were not favourites for the race and came across a bit pessimistic

 

I'm not convinced that RB have great 1 lap speed relative to race pace as someone said, in Spa their dry pace in Q2 was only average - it was the race where they crushed the opposition.



#58 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:52

Christian Horner said they are aiming for a podium this week

He very much made it sound like they were not favourites for the race and came across a bit pessimistic

 

I'm not convinced that RB have great 1 lap speed relative to race pace as someone said, in Spa their dry pace in Q2 was only average - it was the race where they crushed the opposition.

They haven't all year long.  Its been very good, but not spectacular.  Just one look at the rear wing they run explains that, though.  Run less downforce and get less benefit from using DRS, but then have good top speed in non-DRS race conditions.  Their car is fortunate to have enough downforce and good traction to get away with this.  I don't think any other team could do the same thing.



#59 rasul

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:53

Yes, Red Bull have good traction, but Mercedes have good traction and top speed. I don't think Red Bull is the team to beat here. Overtaking will be difficult for them even with DRS.



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#60 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:56

Considering RBR have better acceleration the tow will start working earlier, add DRS to that and the job might be done. Then pull away enough to brake DRS. I know it's easier said than done, but they are not doomed yet. Let's wait for the race to start actually.

 

You live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

With such aggressive short gearing, the only real chances are to stick the car on pole (or at least the front row), and run away with the race in clear air. Or run the risks of geting stucked in traffic like Webber did in Spa.



#61 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:57

Yes, Red Bull have good traction, but Mercedes have good traction and top speed. I don't think Red Bull is the team to beat here. Overtaking will be difficult for them even with DRS.

Mercedes has had that all year long and it hasn't stopped Vettel from doing very well.

 

Overtaking might be difficult for them, but superior tire usage, strategy and Vettel being canny could still mean being favorites.  We'll see a bit more in P2 here.



#62 Massa

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:58

I don't think overtaking will be difficult for them, because at the first a half of all the straight, with their supreme traction, they will be all over others cars. Anyway, for me, i think it will be a 1-2 Mercedes with Alonso battling with Vettel for 3rd.



#63 Massa

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:00

You live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

With such aggressive short gearing, the only real chances are to stick the car on pole (or at least the front row), and run away with the race in clear air. Or run the risks of geting stucked in traffic like Webber did in Spa.

 

 

You can't compare Spa and Monza, it's different track. Even in traffic they will be flying. Traction is key here, i even think they can overtake without DRS like Vettel did at Alonso after the second chicane two years ago.



#64 Trust

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:05

Webber again with KERS problem :rotfl:



#65 Lights

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:07

Rare KERS problem for Mark Webber. Red Bull better look into it so it won't happen again in the future.



#66 SamH123

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:14

My Ipad app is showing Webber as quickest!

Seems like they got the drivers mixed up

edit: sorted now


Edited by SamH123, 06 September 2013 - 12:17.


#67 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:18

You can't compare Spa and Monza, it's different track. Even in traffic they will be flying. Traction is key here, i even think they can overtake without DRS like Vettel did at Alonso after the second chicane two years ago.

 

RB9 is terrible in traffic. Their aero is greatly compromised when running in dirty air. Hungary came to mind.



#68 vista

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:27

Very cool images of the thermal camera showing the heat in the tyres. Also, Red Bull is blistering fast.



#69 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:29

Merc sandbagging or gone chasing setup

#70 Sin

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:30

Epic cam... there.. the temperature changes dunno what you call it in english and am too lazy to look it up now Wärmebildkamera in german.... that was very impressive to see.... intresting too.... which car was that, Hamilton?



#71 apoka

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:33

Vettel 0.3s faster on mediums. The first laps look like the compounds are close. Edit: 0.6s difference now.

 

Btw. 2012 pole time (Hamilton) was 1:24.010.


Edited by apoka, 06 September 2013 - 12:34.


#72 surbjits

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:34

Predicting Rosberg lights to flag victory.



#73 Holdenboy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:35

Vettel is blisteringly fast  1:24.453. take that everybody!!



#74 SamH123

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:40

Wow, similar FP2 to what we have seen recently in terms of RB dominance

Hamilton can't even go quicker than his best splits lap on Hards from FP1


Edited by SamH123, 06 September 2013 - 12:42.


#75 Yoshi

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:44

Hamilton and Alonso only a few tenths faster then on hards, but they set the time on the second flying lap.



#76 Massa_f1

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:44

Vettel is blisteringly fast  1:24.453. take that everybody!!

 

The Mercedes will be sandbagging, so I am not getting carried away with Vettel's lap yet.



#77 Baddoer

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:46

STR are very slow, unusual after Spa



#78 kosmos

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:47

Without Vettel, the top is very close.



#79 Melchiot

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:50

 

Speed trap:
1 15 James Calado 339.5
2 19 Daniel Ricciardo 339.0
3 18 Jean-Eric Vergne 338.2
4 7 Kimi Räikkönen 337.6
5 10 Lewis Hamilton 337.5
6 14 Paul di Resta 337.5
7 9 Nico Rosberg 336.9
8 8 Romain Grosjean 336.8
9 4 Felipe Massa 336.4
10 3 Fernando Alonso 336.2
11 23 Max Chilton 334.4
12 12 Esteban Gutierrez 334.3
13 6 Sergio Perez 332.0
14 5 Jenson Button 331.1
15 11 Nico Hulkenberg 331.0
16 20 Charles Pic 330.5
17 21 Heikki Kovalainen  330.0
18 17 Valtteri Bottas 329.9
19 22 Rodolfo Gonzalez 329.8
20 16 Pastor Maldonado 329.6
21 1 Sebastian Vettel 328.8
22 2 Mark Webber 328.5
 
Red Bull are sitting ducks.

 

 

 

poor webbo is getting topped by VET even in top speed chart



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#80 artista

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:50

Now, THAT is a real rally driver. Räikkönen was very lucky there.

Edited by artista, 06 September 2013 - 12:51.


#81 Miggeex

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:56

Raikkonen and Grosjean 1:25.116 for both of them  :rotfl:



#82 rasul

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:00

Raikkonen and Grosjean 1:25.116 for both of them  :rotfl:

That's called getting the most out of the car.  :p



#83 Holdenboy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:04

The Mercedes will be sandbagging, so I am not getting carried away with Vettel's lap yet.

the bulls long run pace is also pretty good ( Mercedes and Ferrari simply can't be sand bagging there)



#84 vista

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:06

How is long run pace? Think Red Bull is quickest once again.



#85 Holdenboy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:09

How is long run pace? Think Red Bull is quickest once again.

they seem to be about a second faster on long run pace.

 


Edited by Holdenboy, 06 September 2013 - 13:11.


#86 kosmos

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:09

Vettel's front wing looks impressive.



#87 Shiroo

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:13

Let's talk about how shitty Renault engines are at Monza and how they will disallow RBR to get a win.



#88 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:13

Vettel's front wing looks impressive.

 

It is a different front wing than the one tested in FP1. This is a single cascade element, and by the look of it, I reckon it will be used for the rest of the weekend.



#89 Bloggsworth

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:15

It seems that Marussia have sorted Chilton's car (I'd hate to put his speed down to driver ability, it would only start a fan-storm...)



#90 Roscoe

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:26

That was close for Ferrrrrrrrrrrrrrnando.



#91 vista

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:29

I don't believe how quick red bull (vettel) is considering this track was supposed to be their weakest.



#92 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:29

It seems that Marussia have sorted Chilton's car (I'd hate to put his speed down to driver ability, it would only start a fan-storm...)

Who?



#93 Tron

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:29

Only reliability can challenge RB.



#94 sv401

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:37

I don't believe how quick red bull (vettel) is considering this track was supposed to be their weakest.

 

Running on lower fuel than the rivals can do wonders to your pace. :) This has been happening a lot recently, there is "Red Bull dominance" on Friday, only for it to disappear in qualifying, and Mercedes to grab the pole as usual.


Edited by sv401, 06 September 2013 - 13:37.


#95 SamH123

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:37

Let's talk about how shitty Renault engines are at Monza and how they will disallow RBR to get a win.

 

I know right, top 4 all renault engines!

 

But how about talking about it when Renault engines have dominated the race...



#96 rasul

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:39

Alonso and Merc barely improved their  times set on the hard compound. Still expect a Mercedes pole. 



#97 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:42

Alonso and Merc barely improved their  times set on the hard compound. Still expect a Mercedes pole. 

 

Unfortunately, I would have to disagree with you here. Vettel is going to take P1 tomorrow. I have a lot of money riding on that!  :D



#98 sv401

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:43

Let's talk about how shitty Renault engines are at Monza and how they will disallow RBR to get a win.

 

Did I miss something ? I thought it is still Friday. One does not get points for topping free practices on low fuel. Do you think Hamilton is really only half a second faster than Gutierrez, or that Mercedes were sandbagging like they usually do on Friday ?



#99 SamH123

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:45

some stints:

webber (med) 29.450  29.117  29.194  29.141  28.974  28.944  28.906   29.645  34.501* 28.552  28.763  28.722  28.773  29.422   36.040* 28.847  29.977   29.607

alonso (med)   29.654  29.477  29.356  29.918  29.703  29.182  29.029  29.021  28.916  28.833  28.718  30.306*  29.336  29.522  29.445  43.542*  33.343*  30.162  30.130

hamilton (med 30.768* 29.889  29.528  32.606* 29.370  29.284  29.468 32.973* 29.286 36.203* 29.402 37.709* 30.015

 

remember that Vettel seems about 4-5 tenths quicker a lap than Webber at the moment though... 

 

edit: argh the format changed :(  I'll try and change it.  


Edited by SamH123, 06 September 2013 - 13:49.


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#100 rasul

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:46

Unfortunately, I would have to disagree with you here. Vettel is going to take P1 tomorrow. I have a lot of money riding on that!   :D

Good luck.  :D 

We shall see. I'd be only glad if I'm not right. Mercedes poles are boring me to death already.