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Mistakes that denied McLaren titles


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#1 rileyl

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:19

Saw an analysis topic on Autosport;

below are what I think for recent years:

 

2000 Hakkinen

2003 Kimi

2005 Kimi

2007 Lewis/Alonso

2012 Lewis

 

I'm pretty sure that still many of us were heart beating fast when McLarens leading a race in late 90s, just praying our cars could make to the finish.


Edited by rileyl, 06 September 2013 - 09:23.


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#2 David1976

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:25

There is definitely something in this but all teams make mistakes.

 

However, and this is my opinion, McLaren have lost more than most due to silly errors and poor race team decisions.



#3 Zoetrope

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:34

I always wanted to ask about the engineers swap at the beginning of 2010 when Jenson joined the team. I haven't been following F1 back then, so I don't know much about it. Could someone elaborate on this issue, please? Is it true that Lewis was stripped of his engineers (that he was working with for a long time, had a good communication and mutual understanding) just to make it easier for Jenson to acclimiatize?

If this is true, I have no more questions about McLaren.



#4 Kingshark

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:40

Mind you, McLaren weren't always the unlucky team, 1999 and 2008 are two seasons which they easily could have lost, but won by the skin of their teeth.

 

I can't argue 2005 or 2012 though, those were two of the most spectacular seasons where one team threw away the championship, probably ever.



#5 Tron

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:51

Saw an analysis topic on Autosport;

below are what I think for recent years:

 

2000 Hakkinen

2003 Kimi

2005 Kimi

2007 Lewis/Alonso

2012 Lewis

 

I'm pretty sure that still many of us were heart beating fast when McLarens leading a race in late 90s, just praying our cars could make to the finish.

 

For 2000, just :rotfl:

Ferrari dominated that season, and would have been wrapped up earlier if Ferrari didn't do it's own little mistakes.

Same with 2003, as well 2007 if it weren't for Ferrari's tyre blunder in Japan.

 

There is definitely something in this but all teams make mistakes.

 

However, and this is my opinion, McLaren have lost more than most due to silly errors and poor race team decisions.

 

Fully agree that every team makes errors through out the season, and for that reason, the "What If" arguements are very useless, because if every team didn't commit mistakes from design right to the race, then they'd all be crossing the finish line at the same time?

 

In this arguement though, with the supposedly on track errors committed by a single team both management and drivers that cost them titles, unfortunately Ferrari are kings at it.

 

1976

1982

1983

1990 - Protugal!!!

1997 - Too many!

1998 - Belgium

1999

2008 - Singapore

2010

2012


 



#6 Oho

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:28

For 2000, just :rotfl:

Ferrari dominated that season, and would have been wrapped up earlier if Ferrari didn't do it's own little mistakes.

 

I take it then you did not watch it.

 

Häkkinen's title challenge in 00 was pretty badly dented straight of the blocks by the 28 points he conceivably gave away to his main rival in the first two races and which explains Schumachers run away lead and then the topic was not mistakes of rivals but those of McLaren.


Edited by Oho, 06 September 2013 - 10:37.


#7 ngwe23

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:38

Former McLaren fan here. 2012 was the last straw for me :mad:  I could believe how a team could just throw away point like that. Couldn't take it and I followed LH to Merc and I am a happier man. I am not surprised 2013 is another disaster, they are so good at shooting themselves in the foot.  



#8 Clatter

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:39

I take it then you did not watch it.

 

Häkkinen's title challenge in 00 was pretty badly dented straight of the blocks by the 28 points he conceivably gave away to his main rival in the first two races and then the topic was not mistakes of rivals but those of McLaren.

How does that work when first place only got 10 points?

 

MS had 4 retirements to MH's 3 that season. Ferrari more than dominated.



#9 Clatter

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:43

For 2000, just :rotfl:

Ferrari dominated that season, and would have been wrapped up earlier if Ferrari didn't do it's own little mistakes.

Same with 2003, as well 2007 if it weren't for Ferrari's tyre blunder in Japan.

 

 

Fully agree that every team makes errors through out the season, and for that reason, the "What If" arguements are very useless, because if every team didn't commit mistakes from design right to the race, then they'd all be crossing the finish line at the same time?

 

In this arguement though, with the supposedly on track errors committed by a single team both management and drivers that cost them titles, unfortunately Ferrari are kings at it.

 

1976

1982

1983

1990 - Protugal!!!

1997 - Too many!

1998 - Belgium

1999

2008 - Singapore

2010

2012

 

You need to add some for 99 as well. Forget which race it was where they didn't have the tyres ready for Irvine.



#10 Oho

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:46

How does that work when first place only got 10 points?

 

MS had 4 retirements to MH's 3 that season. Ferrari more than dominated.

Well there is a single winner....

 

Ferrari's mistakes are still not the topic..

 

Incidentally the radio transmitter blocking brake pedal at Monco thingy effectively makes it four each and in Häkkinen's case none of them is really attributable to the driver.


Edited by Oho, 06 September 2013 - 10:47.


#11 Dunc

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:49

I recently found Nigel Mansell's autobiography in a charity shop, in the chapter about his brief time with McLaren he says that the team's problem is that it has diversified into so many areas since its 1980s glory days that there isn't a strong enough focus on F1 anymore.

 

Noige isn't exactly unbiased, or always reliable, and this was almost 20 years ago, but I think this may be Macca's problem.  When you consider everything McLaren does, with a relatively small staff, can it put the kind of focus into its F1 team that Red Bull, Merc and Ferrari does?  If the answer is no, it would explain the half-arsed seasons they have been having lately.


Edited by Dunc, 06 September 2013 - 10:53.


#12 Tron

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:52

I take it then you did not watch it.

 

Häkkinen's title challenge in 00 was pretty badly dented straight of the blocks by the 28 points he conceivably gave away to his main rival in the first two races and which explains Schumachers run away lead and then the topic was not mistakes of rivals but those of McLaren.

 

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Do you only count Hakkinen's retirements and not Schumacher's further on?

 

Also, it was only a 20 point lead by the first two races, and the arguement here is by mistakes, not mechanical retirements. Which, Schumacher had more of both than Hakkinen BTW.

 

I don't care if the topic is about McLaren's mistakes, it's a silly topic for my above mentioned reasons because it's a biased arguement from that perspective.

 

How does that work when first place only got 10 points?

 

MS had 4 retirements to MH's 3 that season. Ferrari more than dominated.

 

Totally agree, but some people either forget, or choose to forget. ;)

 



#13 Clatter

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:53

Well there is a single winner....

 

Ferrari's mistakes are still not the topic..

 

Incidentally the radio transmitter blocking brake pedal at Monco thingy effectively makes it four each and in Häkkinen's case none of them is really attributable to the driver.

In the context being discussed it doesn't matter if the loss of points was down to MS or the team, the DNF's evened out and what was left was Ferrari dominating.



#14 Oho

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:58

In the context being discussed it doesn't matter if the loss of points was down to MS or the team, the DNF's evened out and what was left was Ferrari dominating.

The topic being discussed is mistakes made by McLaren that may have cost them titles, not whether the rival teams made comparable number of mistakes to compensate..... Is that so  f******* to hard to grasp.

 

I am so gonna get banned because I just cant suffer fools gladly...


Edited by Oho, 06 September 2013 - 10:59.


#15 scheivlak

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:00

You need to add some for 99 as well. Forget which race it was where they didn't have the tyres ready for Irvine.

At least they put the right tyres on!

The confusion in the pits was a result of first thinking about rain tyres but then rightly choosing dry weather ones.

 

At about the same time during that European GP McLaren put on rain tyres on Hakkinen's car while there was hardy a drop of rain on the track. A few hopelessly slow laps Mika had to come in again to switch back to dry tyres.

 

He lost far, far more time than Eddie. Net result was that Mika fell back from 2nd to 14th, some 35 seconds behind Irvine - and that in spite of what happened in the Ferrari pits! It's amazing that MIka still managed to finish ahead of Eddie.


Edited by scheivlak, 06 September 2013 - 11:05.


#16 Clatter

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:01

The topic being discussed are mistakes made by McLaren that may have cost them titles, not whether the rival teams made comparable number of mistakes to compensate..... Is that so  f******* to hard to grasp.

 

I am so gonna get banned because I just cant suffer fools gladly...

You should read all the posts rather than just jump into the middle, but as you have clearly shown your inability to discuss anything in a civil manner I'll leave you to fester.



#17 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:06

Please keep to the topic: Mistakes that denied McLaren titles



#18 peroa

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:07

I recently found Nigel Mansell's autobiography in a charity shop, in the chapter about his brief time with McLaren he says that the team's problem is that it has diversified into so many areas since its 1980s glory days that there isn't a strong enough focus on F1 anymore.

 

Noige isn't exactly unbiased, or always reliable, and this was almost 20 years ago, but I think this may be Macca's problem.  When you consider everything McLaren does, with a relatively small staff, can it put the kind of focus into its F1 team that Red Bull, Merc and Ferrari does?  If the answer is no, it would explain the half-arsed seasons they have been having lately.

This is certainly one of if not heir major problem. Instead of ruthlessly going for the win they seem to operate within the olympic spirit.

The important thing is not to win, but to take part.



#19 Anonymous

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:10

fan

 

Complete opposite.



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#20 MMandi

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:19

Another worrying thing iv'e noticed with the team is the tone of 'you learn from your mistakes and this will make us better as a team' this has been repeated so many times over the years I'm waiting to see when the learning kicks in. Anyway good luck to them for next year and beyond. I love the Mclaren as a team but honestly I doubt anything will change for a good few years, I expect Williams to depose them on merit soon.



#21 scheivlak

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:23

2003 Kimi

 

I think it was a minor miracle that Kimi stayed in the hunt all year in an updated 2002 car (that was quite reliable, apart of course from that painful moment at the 'Ring).

 

If anything, it was Wiliams who lost their chance in 2003.



#22 ForzaGTR

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:29

2012 was a car crash season for Mclaren, too many strategy and pit stop errors to count.

 

2007 was thrown away by Mclaren, they should've pitted Lewis sooner in China. Not to mention how poorly they managed the ALO/HAM relationship.



#23 Tron

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 13:02

2012 was a car crash season for Mclaren, too many strategy and pit stop errors to count.

 

2007 was thrown away by Mclaren, they should've pitted Lewis sooner in China. Not to mention how poorly they managed the ALO/HAM relationship.

 

Fully agree with 2012, it could have been McLaren's, as well in 2011 if they pushed the development earlier...

 

In 2007 the China blunder cost them, then again so it did to Ferrari the race in Japan.



#24 eronrules

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 14:10

if i have to pinpoint 2 important factor for mclaren's ability to throw away championships upto 2006

 

1. adrian newey and his design philosophy

2. Mercedes benz power plant. 



#25 maverick69

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 14:16

2012. Just complete arse on so many levels....... Which obviously spilled in to 2013.

 

2007? Meh. I think there were other powers at play there....... and I'll leave it at that........



#26 Tron

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 14:20

if i have to pinpoint 2 important factor for mclaren's ability to throw away championships upto 2006

2. Mercedes benz power plant. 

 

They did break down often then.



#27 Jimisgod

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 14:45

Mercedes engines ruined Mclaren's chances in 2003 and 2005.

Stupidity lost them the title in 2007.

Lewis lost it with his own errors in 2010.

Then the engines and other components did it again in 2012.

They don't help themselves by having a shit car every 2 or 3 years. The obvious being 2004, 06, 09 and now 2013.

#28 Jimisgod

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 14:45

Mercedes engines ruined Mclaren's chances in 2003 and 2005.

Stupidity lost them the title in 2007.

Lewis lost it with his own errors in 2010.

Then the engines and other components did it again in 2012.

They don't help themselves by having a shit car every 2 or 3 years. The obvious being 2004, 06, 09 and now 2013.

#29 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 15:54

The article referred to in the first post is well worth your time (and money, if you are not a subscriber) to read.

 

You can find it here; Catalogue of disaster.

 

It's not 'news' so it will contain dangerous opinion and some unsubstantiated statements that might offend delicate minds but it does tell an interesting story.

 

2005 was a really sad loss for the team in my view, and 2007 could have been handled far better.  If you think about the sort of pressure that Dennis will have been under in that year, it's unsurprising that he dobbed himself in to the sport-cops, but he certainly could have handles it differently and be sitting on a WDC/WCC for that season too.



#30 Clatter

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 16:01

They did break down often then.

There was certainly a bad period after Berilium was banned.



#31 mzvztag

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 16:48

2012. Just complete arse on so many levels....... Which obviously spilled in to 2013.

 

2007? Meh. I think there were other powers at play there....... and I'll leave it at that........

:up:

2012 was unbelievable.

2007 is a taboo better not spoken about.


Edited by mzvztag, 06 September 2013 - 17:03.


#32 Bleu

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 19:52

28 points = Häkkinen lost 10 points + Schumacher gained 4 points, twice. But in the end Schumi would have won the title even with unlucky events removed. Somehow like this (and I counted Schumacher's Germany incident his fault)

 

Australia: MH 1st, MS 2nd. 10-6 Mika

Brazil: MH 1st, MS 2nd. 20-12 Mika

Imola: MS 1st, MH 2nd. 26-22 Mika

GB; MH 2nd, MS 3rd. 32-26 Mika

Spain: MH 1st, MS 2nd. 42-32 Mika

Europe: MS 1st, MH 2nd. 48-42 Mika

Monaco: MS 1st, MH 4th. 52-51 Schumi

Canada: MS 1st, MH 4th. 62-54 Schumi

France: MS 2nd, MH 3rd. 68-58 Schumi

Austria: MH 1st, MS 3rd. 72-68 Schumi

Germany: MH 2nd, MS DNF. 74-72 Mika

Hungary: MH 1st, MS 2nd. 84-78 Mika

Belgium: MH 1st, MS 2nd. 94-84 Mika

Italy: MS 1st, MH 2nd. 100-94 Mika

US: MS 1st, MH 2nd. 106-104 Mika

Japan: MS 1st, MH 2nd. 114-112 Schumi

Malaysia: MS 1st, MH 4th. 124-115 Schumi



#33 Clatter

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 20:07

28 points = Häkkinen lost 10 points + Schumacher gained 4 points, twice. But in the end Schumi would have won the title even with unlucky events removed. Somehow like this (and I counted Schumacher's Germany incident his fault)

 

You can't look at it that way. After the first 2 races MH was 20 points behind, not 28.



#34 Juan Kerr

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 20:46

There is definitely something in this but all teams make mistakes.

 

However, and this is my opinion, McLaren have lost more than most due to silly errors and poor race team decisions.

To be fair it has taken some god-like drivers to win anything at McLaren, they certainly know how to lose championships.



#35 Disgrace

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 21:38

There is always something more tense about a race in which McLaren lead one-two, compared to say Ferrari or Red Bull. Things are usually on the edge of going, or do in fact, go wrong.



#36 pingu666

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 23:13

I think you could say 2012 was a laundry list, I expect them to get better at some point anyways



#37 HP

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 00:26

IMO McLaren's PR created too high expectations.This is the first year were I see Mclaren outright admitting their car isn't up to the task. I always loathed that about McLaren. Their promises were higher than their engineering capabilities. May sound a bit harsh, but it's one way to look at it, as I don't need to paint a prettier picture for the sake of the company.

 

Blaming Newey or Mercedes seems a bit one eyed to me too.

 

Newey designed good and championship winning cars at Williams, McLaren and Red Bull. At Red Bull he enjoys more freedom than he had at McLaren. The result is there for all to see.

 

The Mercedes engines breaking down. Beryiium that was banned, and for a good reason, certainly played a part, Newey's packaging methods in a response to Ferrari's domination were one step too far ahead. The engines couldn't handle the heat.

 

It was Withmarsh who pinpointed the problem and was tasked to resolve it. He mentioned something about the different departments not working well together, and he had to integrate it it.That solved some of the issues. But IMO McLaren over and over stumbles over their ambitions. Why would I say that? What Withmarsh described about this years cars problems are excatly the same issues that he had to solve few years ago. Parts on their own were superior, but didn't work when assembled together.

 

From my point it seems that the managment is very capable of shooting themselves into their own feets. I do appreciate the need for innovation to stay ahead, Innovation is a risky business, when you have to verify the feasibility of your ideas mainly on race day. So less PR and more prudence is a good idea. And it seems that Withmarsh understood that. So there's some hope,

 

The question mark right now are the drivers.McLaren won their past WDC's with some of the best that were available at that time. Button so far has won a WDC in a dominant car (and most people put him in the second tier of drivers), and about Perez we still have to see.

 

In the end I still think the current management isn't capable of adressing all aspects of a year long F1 campaign adequately. I highly doubt however that McLaren will depart from their overall company structure. Mclaren is technology driven. Other teams adjust according to their employees strengths. As long as McLaren opperates their way there will be more heart breaks and near misses, Technology is a tool to help and serve people. The opposite doesn't work, and woe to humanity if it ever will.



#38 Kingshark

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 03:04

In this arguement though, with the supposedly on track errors committed by a single team both management and drivers that cost them titles, unfortunately Ferrari are kings at it.

...

2012

 

Say what?

 

I would argue that Ferrari, as a team, did a stellar job in 2012 with the car they had.



#39 fabr68

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 03:37

I think Mclaren's biggest mistake has been to manage and support the right lead driver of the time to spearhead them into championship victory. They have gotten lost in the fantasy that both their drivers can be WDCs at the end of the season. At the end you get an unhealthy and vicious internal rivalry that ends them empty handed. They need to learn to manage their drivers so they can function like teammates instead of rivals and have both embrace their role in the team for the ultimate objective given that specific season circumstances.

I am not talking about 2007 specifically. Go back and look at all the seasons where their car was WDC material and you will find their shortcommings at maximizing the lead driver of the time results.

Edited by fabr68, 07 September 2013 - 03:38.