28 replies to this topic

[Laffite]

It is stilll difficult to understand why it took some laps to Alonso to pit after Vettel's, given that Massa went in shortly after Webber.

Alonso was closing the gap to Seb before the pit. The German had a 5 sec lead before pit and emerged with a10 sec lead after Fernando's delayed stop.

It is unknown if Alonso could have won had pitted early, but one thing is certain: driving closer to Seb would have put more pressure on Redbull, thinking that ferrari has a better reliability record.

A huge mistake IMBH

[Disgrace]

Not a chance. Vettel had light-years in reserve.

[turssi]

@disgrace: how would you know that?

[AlexFone]

Vettel was in a different class. Ferrari were trying/hoping that Vettel's tyres could become an issue so tried something different. Red Bull were on a different planet through Parabolica.

[Disgrace]

@disgrace: how would you know that?

 

By watching the live timing. Here's the lap chart. Alonso was absolutely no threat.

[Bruce]

I get the feeling that ferrari spent the race trying to figure out why the whole slip-streaming thing in qualifying fails so badly every year.... 

[Seanspeed]

It was a mistake because it put Alonso's 2nd place in jeapordy.  Thankfully Webber had gearbox issues at the end there.

[El_Rápido]

I get the feeling that ferrari spent the race trying to figure out why the whole slip-streaming thing in qualifying fails so badly every year.... 

 

Which you know they'll blame it on the "faulty" wind tunnel.

[fabr68]

Vettel was pacing himself. There was no way Alo so could catch him.

The only danger was losing second place. No harm no foul. It was worth taking a risk.

Edited by fabr68, 08 September 2013 - 22:17.

[hogstar]

Ferrari were never going to take it to Red Bull and Vettel had an another day on the beach. Ferrari often talks about 'the team' over the individual, but it is obsessed with Alonso which is counter productive. If it started running Ferrari like a 'team', then it might start making inroads... 

[Seanspeed]

Ferrari were never going to take it to Red Bull and Vettel had an another day on the beach. Ferrari often talks about 'the team' over the individual, but it is obsessed with Alonso which is counter productive. If it started running Ferrari like a 'team', then it might start making inroads... 

I have no idea how to make sense of this post.

[fabr68]

I have no idea how to make sense of this post.

The effects of Sunday alcohol...

[BillBald]

Puzzled as to why this thread exists. I really can't see what Ferrari could have done to win this one.

 

Except maybe a long pit stop for Massa, to bring him out in close company with Vettel so he could crash into him...

 

OK, I see it now, Ferrari strategy fail...

[HP]

The idea IMO was to run FA a little longer, so that he could capitalise on fresher tires at the end of the race. Since tires lasted, that did not work out.

 

What could have been done different?

 

Undercut while you just started to have faster lap times than the car ahead of you? Doesn't seem the best option IMO. Arguably RBR would have pitted Vettel the next lap to cover.

 

Pit on the same lap? Unless there was a problem at the RBR pits that isn't helping much (except not losing ground). Besides if there were a bigger problem, FA would have been ahead anyway. But since RBR didn't had any issues, that's la-la land.

 

So Kudos to Ferrari to try something different. Didn't gain or lose a place by doing it, so it wasn't a failed strategy. No strategy call would have put Alonso into the lead. During the second half of the race if he closed a bit up to SV, SV responded, even after the gear box issues surfaced, Only in the last few laps Vettel didn't respond, because by then the race was run.

[AlexanderF1]

ferrari screwed themselves over i think, they should not have told massa to let alonzo through on lap 8, and they might have been able to get webber out of drs, and then ferrari screwed massa's pitstop which cost him 3rd place. massa had a flauluss drive but, the teams bad pitstop means constructor points lost which could be crucial for 2nd place. i think alonzo new vettel was untouchable so i think they just wanted fresher tyres incase something happened to vettel at the end. and another note alonzo broke webbers wing a bit i that's probably cost webber lots of time over 50 laps

[Lights]

I don't think it was a mistake either. As long as they came out in front of Webber, the later they pitted for new tires, the better. Had Webber not been so close, they should have waited even longer. You never know what happens, a SC may appear with 10 laps to go and much fresher tires and a little error from Vettel at the restart could have given Alonso the opportunity to attack him for the win.

[sv401]

Alonso scored the most points that was possible under the given circumstances, so there was no real mistake there. It was a (minor) gamble that did not pay off, but did not cost anything either. The only potential mistake was not pitting Massa earlier to prevent Webber from undercutting him. Then again, maybe the team was afraid this would indirectly compromise Alonso's strategy, which was more important.

[DampMongoose]

What could Ferrari have done differently? Other than Massa punting Vettel off (in order to keep his job next year), not much would have changed the outcome...

[Laffite]

What could Ferrari have done differently? Other than Massa punting Vettel off (in order to keep his job next year), not much would have changed the outcome...

 

Excuse me for having a different view.

There's just no point in staying out while your opponent is lapping 1 sec faster. Alonso could have pit at the same lap ou even earlier in an attempt to close then gap.

For sure it was a tough call, maybe impossible.

But running closer to Seb would increase the pressure.

If Ferrari was to try something different, why not opting for a reversed strategy (starting on primes and then changing to options, as Perez in 2012).

[Lights]

Excuse me for having a different view.

There's just no point in staying out while your opponent is lapping 1 sec faster. Alonso could have pit at the same lap ou even earlier in an attempt to close then gap.

For sure it was a tough call, maybe impossible.

But running closer to Seb would increase the pressure.

If Ferrari was to try something different, why not opting for a reversed strategy (starting on primes and then changing to options, as Perez in 2012).

 

There clearly is. It's called safety car.

[BillBald]

There clearly is. It's called safety car.

 

Didn't I see Flavio around?

 

Massa must have said no... 

[eronrules]

from gary anderson's column

 

 

Ferrari's strategy in the race was confusing, too.

When Sebastian Vettel pitted, they left Alonso out and brought Felipe Massa in for his pit stop, when they should have left Massa out.

Leaving Alonso out cost him a second a lap for four laps - and he lost the race by five seconds while Vettel was nursing a gearbox problem.

Had they left Massa out, Vettel would have returned to the track about 12 seconds behind him. That would not have taken long to close down with Vettel on new tyres and Massa on old, so in a few laps Vettel would have been trying to pass the Ferrari.

You don't have to hold him up, but you can make it difficult for a couple of laps.

They're not seeing the big picture and it's been going on for four years now. So they need to do something about that.

 

andrew benson's column

 

 

But the decision (to pit later) cost Alonso in two significant ways.

Firstly, it meant he was 10 seconds behind Vettel when he emerged from his stop on lap 27, a margin Vettel enlarged by a couple of 10ths of a second a lap each time around before easing off in the closing laps to win by 5.4 seconds.

Additionally, it meant Alonso was left having to fend off Webber, who had been six seconds behind his rival - and also behind Massa - when he stopped on lap 23 but jumped the Brazilian at his stop and was less than a second behind Alonso when the lead Ferrari emerged from its stop.

[Shambolic]

It might be an unpopular opinion, but I feel Alonso cost Alonso the win, the strategy was perfectly sound.

 

After his stop, Alonso was just too slow. On fresher tyres, he was struggling to match never mind beat Massa's time. Massa was driving very well, but all in all Alonso just didn't extract as much from the harder tyres, fresher or not, as he needed and to me, should have. His first stint was good, and the pace near the end as Vettel's tyres wore out, showed that pit later, push at the end was the way to go

[sv401]

from gary anderson's column

 

Trying to use Massa as a moving roadblock would probably not have been enough to allow Alonso to win (if there is a difference of seconds per lap due to tyre age, it does not take much time to pass the slower car, this was not Hungary or Monaco), but it could have sacrificed Massa's 4th place, since Hulkenberg and Rosberg finished very close behind. Currently, it may make more sense for Ferrari to focus on a 2nd place in the WCC ahead of Mercedes than to win the WDC from 50+ points behind with a probably slower car.

 

andrew benson's column

 

On the other hand, if Alonso pitted earlier, the initial gap after the pit stop would have been smaller, but it would have increased faster because of the Spaniard not having 4 laps fresher tyres for the second stint.

[redreni]

I think Ferrari pitted Massa because they were trying to keep him ahead of Webber. With a better inlap and a faster stop, they could have done it. They could have gone Gary Anderson's route and sacrificed his race to annoy Vettel, but at Monza there are limits to how much you can slow somebody down because you'll just get passed, particularly if you've got worn tyres and poor traction. I'm not at all sure they would have achieved much with that strategy except making Webber's life even easier.

 

It's the old adage, if you're fast, any halfway sensible strategy will be a good one, but if you are slow, none will work. Short of having Massa take Vettel off, Ferrari just didn't have a winning strategy available to them.

[BillBald]

Trying to use Massa as a moving roadblock would probably not have been enough to allow Alonso to win (if there is a difference of seconds per lap due to tyre age, it does not take much time to pass the slower car, this was not Hungary or Monaco), but it could have sacrificed Massa's 4th place, since Hulkenberg and Rosberg finished very close behind. Currently, it may make more sense for Ferrari to focus on a 2nd place in the WCC ahead of Mercedes than to win the WDC from 50+ points behind with a probably slower car.

 

 

On the other hand, if Alonso pitted earlier, the initial gap after the pit stop would have been smaller, but it would have increased faster because of the Spaniard not having 4 laps fresher tyres for the second stint.

 

 

Generally, I have a lot of respect for Gary, but in this case he was clearly talking nonsense. Massa's race would have been ruined to no purpose, Vettel would have swept past him with minimal delay.

 

Having fresher tyres was the only chance for Alonso to close down Vettel, and even be able to overtake if there'd been a safety car.

[aliroy]

@Shambolic. You don't need to form an opinion when our friend 'disgrace' has posted the lap times link. Your opinion is contrary to the lap times on all 3 accounts. Yet again another poor Ferrari strategy. Bring back Brawn for 2014 please!

[HoldenRT]

It is unknown if Alonso could have won had pitted early, but one thing is certain: driving closer to Seb would have put more pressure on Redbull, thinking that ferrari has a better reliability record.

A huge mistake IMBH

 

It is known.

 

He wouldn't have done any better than he did even if pitted the same lap Seb did.  Except maybe be a few seconds further up the road.  But then Webber would have still caught up to him.  And Seb would have still held on.  Seb really didn't push much in the final stint, as evidenced by his fastest lap.

 

Alonso pitted after Webber.. and Webber had front wing damage.. yet Webber closed the gap, and pressured Alonso until the end of the race.  If Alonso couldn't gap Webber.. despite FRESHER tyres.. how could he catch Seb?

 

Alonso's strategy hoped for more pace at the end of the race.  It wasn't that they thought this was likely, it was more because they had nothing to lose.  Because they knew, if they mirrored Seb's strategy, they knew they would be slower and Seb would get away.  Therefore, they chose the option that gave them a chance, to be able to close on him.  They rolled the dice, and it didn't work.

[michal2009b]

Who cares, we were nowhere near Vettel.

Edited by michal2009b, 12 September 2013 - 21:23.