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Massa exits Ferrari from 2014 [split]


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#251 prty

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:03

Brain injuries can often lead to difficulties in concentration.

 

Not saying it's not true, but some see with rose tinted glasses his performances pre-injury:

 

d06brn2247.jpg
 



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#252 VicR

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:15

People wish Massa won the title because he lost it due to two events out of his hands, the blown engine with a runaway lead, and the pit release with the hose attached, also with the lead. Only person to blame losing the 2008 title is Ferrari

 

True. Ferrari f***ed up. But I believe the Singapore incident was staged. No way Felipe Massa could ever be the last Ferrari WDC. Not with what we've learned in the last couple of years. They wouldn't have been able to shaft him the way they have if he would have been a WDC.



#253 oetzi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:57

Not saying it's not true, but some see with rose tinted glasses his performances pre-injury:

 

 

Sure, he made mistakes. So do all drivers.

 

He also came within one corner of being WDC. Hard to get too rose-tinted about that when someone of Raikkonen's calibre was his team mate.

 

He also beat Raikkonen on points over their two years together. But feel free to belittle his ability if it makes you happy.



#254 LaoTze

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:06

I'm so amazed at how blind people are, Massa is not good enough for F1.. PERIOD.... you can say bla bla bla bla 2008 as many times as you want, it is not 2008 anymore... If's and but's don't change nothing in F1. 

 

He has been garbage, 2010, 2011, 2012, and now 2013.... what some team should just HOPE that he is not garbage next year?

 

I hope he does not retain a seat.

 

P.S I think its funny aswell how so many of you can forget that he spun out on his own IN MALAYSIA 2008, when he was in second.. So if you really wanna talk about it, he lost the title himself with a very silly mistake. 



#255 sv401

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:17

 

he lost the title himself with a very silly mistake. 

 

Do you mean a silly mistake like this one ? It is quite possible that Massa lost the title as a result of driving worse than Hamilton, but if that is the case, it was not because of making more mistakes, but rather simply not being fast enough (obviously, we cannot reliably compare the relative pace of the cars).



#256 nosecone

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:21

huh, is this turning into a driver thread? :lol:


Edited by nosecone, 16 September 2013 - 13:21.


#257 LaoTze

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:22

Yea that is a very silly mistake, MUCH worse than what Massa did.. One must wonder is Hamilton sneezed at the worst possible moment or he just was looking at something else. 



#258 oetzi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:27

I'm so amazed at how blind people are, Massa is not good enough for F1.. PERIOD.... you can say bla bla bla bla 2008 as many times as you want, it is not 2008 anymore...

 

We were talking about his ability pre/post his injury, and the possibility that his injury caused him to have difficulty concentrating, so his performance in 2007/8 is quite relevant.

 

You seem to agree that there's been a drop off in performance since it happened.



#259 LaoTze

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:33

We were talking about his ability pre/post his injury, and the possibility that his injury caused him to have difficulty concentrating, so his performance in 2007/8 is quite relevant.

 

You seem to agree that there's been a drop off in performance since it happened.

 

Yes I do.... and it's a damn shame that he had his accident, he was MEGA in 2008.. And it would have been interesting to see how he would have handled Alonso without that injury, I believe he would have been MUCH closer...

 

If I could have a say, that damn spring would never had hit him in the head. 


Edited by LaoTze, 16 September 2013 - 13:33.


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#260 oetzi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:37

I'm sure he feels much the same.



#261 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:42

Yhe was MEGA in 2008..

the Ferrari was MEGA in 2008..


Edited by discover23, 16 September 2013 - 13:43.


#262 LaoTze

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:45

Yea sorry I forgot, it is only Alonso that is mega... when someone else does something impressive it's only down to the car.



#263 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:51

Yea sorry I forgot, it is only Alonso that is mega... when someone else does something impressive it's only down to the car.

Maybe you just stated watching F1 this year and have not yet grasp the importance of the car in Formula 1.



#264 LaoTze

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:56

You need a good car to win in F1??? I would never have thought so, I always wondered why teams like Minardi or Marussia was never fighting for victory...

 

Thanks for clearing that up  :rotfl:


Edited by LaoTze, 16 September 2013 - 13:56.


#265 oetzi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 13:59

I've been watching F1 since the 1970s, if that's of any relevance, and I think the Ferrari was a bit slower than the McLaren in 2007 and give or take even in 2008. During that time, Massa beat Raikkonen in the same car, and finished a handful of points behind Hamilton and Alonso in a slightly worse car.

 

That's a pretty good record against drivers of that calibre.



#266 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 14:09

I actually think that Ferrari was faster but less reliable. The only counterargument that people have against this is Alonso saying his mclaren was the best car, but he could not have possibly known that since he never drove the F2007.



#267 oetzi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 14:36

I actually think that Ferrari was faster but less reliable. The only counterargument that people have against this is Alonso saying his mclaren was the best car, but he could not have possibly known that since he never drove the F2007.

 

If Alonso agrees with me, I'll take that as a form of confirmation.


Edited by oetzi, 16 September 2013 - 14:37.


#268 scandyman

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:48

I actually think that Ferrari was faster but less reliable. The only counterargument that people have against this is Alonso saying his mclaren was the best car, but he could not have possibly known that since he never drove the F2007.

Yeah, this Alonso guy is talking like he would have had access to the F2007 data. :rotfl:



#269 hoohar

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:28

Predictable but still slightly depressing to see a minority of posters being disrespectful about a top, top sportsman and a true gentleman. A dedicated servant of the Scuderia. Rob Smedley remarked last season that, when asked if he was happy with Felipe's improved form, "I'm never gonna be appy until ee wins". I sincerely hope he does manage to get a win before the end of the season although this is pure hope rather than expectation.

 

It's clear to anyone who looks on Forix that Felipe is not the driver he was prior to his accident, but he is still the same man, which is something to be thankful for, frankly, when one considers the seriousness of what happened to him. He could have lost his life or ended up with profound brain damage. There could also be other factors playing into his loss of form, including the refuelling ban from 2010, the Alonso effect, and by now, age. But from 2009-2013 he has done his level best to deliver results for Ferrari and he showed in Hockenheim 2010, in Monza qualy 2012/2013, in Austin 2012 and at various other times that he is Ferrari through-and-through.

 

Up until 2009 he was a top, top driver, who on his day could outpace anybody. I don't know why but I'll always remeber Hungaroring 2008, when he drove around the outside of Hamilton at turn 1 then, knowing he was fuelled two laps shorter, pulled the required gap on supposedly the fastest driver on the grid. He didn't finish that race due to engine failure, but he really put one over Hamilton psychologically. Hamilton pushed so hard in a vain attempt to keep up, that he ran off the circuit and into the dust and grit and crap, and this may have contributed to Hamilton's subsequent puncture in that race.

 

He was brilliant at qualifying very light, leading from the front, and using the lighter car to get the gap to cover the overlap. He lost the 2008 championship because of pitstop blunders by the team, but he so nearly overcame those to win anyway. If the rain at Interlagos had held off another 30s he would have been world champion.

 

I don't see an opportunity for Felipe to drive for a winning team next year, and I doubt he will ever get such an opportunity in F1 again. I think he ought seriously to consider a switch to Indycar.

 

Its amazing that so many really believe the nonsense that Massa suddenly lost form, that was not the driver he once was, the moment Alonso joined the team despite doctors and tests giving him the 100% all clear, and Massa showing many times that he can still out pace the very best sometimes. Of course this is just a convenient excuse from people who cannot accept or comprehend how Alonso could make such a good driver look so mediocre, so they have to create excuses to justify their flawed opinions. They ignore the fact that he was quite mediocre against Michael, and he has been against Alonso, which proves he was never really that good and just flattered by the best cars and an overrated finn team mate.

 

I really hope Massa gets a good seat next year so he can show all the doubters who have insulted him for years claiming he has brain damage, that he is as good as ever and simply had the misfortune of being team mate to one of the best drivers of all time.



#270 hoohar

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:31


I personally don't believe the crash took away his speed, although it can't possibly have helped. I think it was just one in a series of events that slowly took away his desire/motivation. If you look at how he stacked up against Raikkonen, whilst there were variances in form, they were both very consistent and close to each other, the differences rarely beyond 2 tenths or 3. Yet against Alonso he had periods he was consistently very close albeit just behind the Spaniard, and others he was absolutely a million miles off. It varied so wildly, and curiously picked up back always when his seat was at stake. That screams motivation to me.

 

 

It screams Alonso is far better and consistent than both Massa and Kimi, to me. Two inconsistent drivers as team mates makes them both look consistent. Why would Massa be lacking motivation when he was constantly getting embaressed by his team mate, and always fighting for his career? Surely those circumstances would have been more motivating than anything else?



#271 hoohar

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:37

We were talking about his ability pre/post his injury, and the possibility that his injury caused him to have difficulty concentrating, so his performance in 2007/8 is quite relevant.

 

You seem to agree that there's been a drop off in performance since it happened.

 

Doctors and tests have said he is 100% recovered from his accident, there are no injuries, so its not appropriate to be denegrating Massa for being so bad he has brain damage. The guy has been driving an F1 car for 4 years since his accident for crying out loud and often shown a great turn of speed, there is nothing wrong with him, and zero evidence there has been a drop off in performance. He is actually more consistent now than he was in 2008, when he twice spun off in the dry, and 6 times in the wet at silverstone.

 

It's going to be funny next year watching you guys squirm if Kimi performs no better than Massa. There will be no accident excuses, and there will be so much egg wiped off the faces for everyone who claimed for years that Massa sucked and was accident damaged, and you will finally have to face up to the harsh reality that Alonso REALLY is that good.


Edited by hoohar, 17 September 2013 - 02:44.


#272 hoohar

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:42

I've been watching F1 since the 1970s, if that's of any relevance, and I think the Ferrari was a bit slower than the McLaren in 2007 and give or take even in 2008. During that time, Massa beat Raikkonen in the same car, and finished a handful of points behind Hamilton and Alonso in a slightly worse car.

 

That's a pretty good record against drivers of that calibre.

 

Considering the Ferrari scored the most points, wins, poles, fastestlaps, and laps lead, I am wondering what lead you to the conclusion that the Ferrari was a bit slower than the Mclaren? The only way you could believe that is if you think Massa and Kimi are faster drivers than the Alonso and Hamilton. Is that what you really believe???

 

When Alonso said the Mclaren was the best car that year, he was simply trying to rub Mclarens nose in it, that they lost both titles with the 'best car' because of their poor management. As I said above, the only way the Mclaren could have been the best car was if the Mclaren drivers were slower than the Ferrari ones.


Edited by hoohar, 17 September 2013 - 03:59.


#273 oetzi

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 08:10

Doctors and tests have said he is 100% recovered from his accident, there are no injuries, so its not appropriate to be denegrating Massa for being so bad he has brain damage. The guy has been driving an F1 car for 4 years since his accident for crying out loud and often shown a great turn of speed, there is nothing wrong with him, and zero evidence there has been a drop off in performance. He is actually more consistent now than he was in 2008, when he twice spun off in the dry, and 6 times in the wet at silverstone.

 

It's going to be funny next year watching you guys squirm if Kimi performs no better than Massa. There will be no accident excuses, and there will be so much egg wiped off the faces for everyone who claimed for years that Massa sucked and was accident damaged, and you will finally have to face up to the harsh reality that Alonso REALLY is that good.

Doctors don't know enough about brain function to declare that he is 100% recovered. I've been taking a friend who suffered massive brain injuries to hospital (Harley Street, in case you're thinking of suggesting it must be some hick town quack) for two years, and have learnt enough by following his recovery to be working on a digital recovery tool for people with brain injuries. The doctors are perfectly open about the fact they don't understand enough about the brain to accurately measure the amount of damage to function caused, and their measure of recovery is largely based on observing behaviour rather than scans and 'science'. My friend's doctors assured him that an extremely common, almost universal, legacy is an inability to concentrate consistently following a brain injury. Recovery from this may happen over a year or two, a longer period, or not at all, and that there's no way to predict the timeframe..These are the best people in Britain in their field, so probably not far off the best in the world. I'll take their word over yours on this.



#274 oetzi

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 08:19

Considering the Ferrari scored the most points, wins, poles, fastestlaps, and laps lead, I am wondering what lead you to the conclusion that the Ferrari was a bit slower than the Mclaren? The only way you could believe that is if you think Massa and Kimi are faster drivers than the Alonso and Hamilton. Is that what you really believe???

 

When Alonso said the Mclaren was the best car that year, he was simply trying to rub Mclarens nose in it, that they lost both titles with the 'best car' because of their poor management. As I said above, the only way the Mclaren could have been the best car was if the Mclaren drivers were slower than the Ferrari ones.

 

Can you answer the following question?

 

Two teams built cars and participated in a motor racing championship. Each entered two drivers.

 

Team A's drivers scored 110 and 94 points. Team B's drivers each scored 109 points.

 

Which team's car scored the most points that season?



#275 redreni

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:19

It's easy to go down the what could of been avenue, but can anyone say for certain what would of happened if Massa's engine had not blown in Hungary? I've seen the argument above that Crashgate cost Massa the title, would anyone like to explain how the FIA doing anything about that race would of handed the WDC to Massa? He still finished 12th because his team released him with the fuel hose attached, which could of happened with or without Briatore arranging his disgusting stunt. And then you have to look at some of the incidents involving Hamilton, Spa especially, and the whole year evens itself out again.

 

It's better to focus on what Massa actually achieved. Winning multiple races is no mean feat.

 

With Singapore, in my view you don't look at what would have happened if Renault hadn't pulled their stunt, you look at what would have happened if Renault had been caught at the time and kicked out of the race. In that case, Hamilton would have moved up from third to second and Massa from 12th to 11th. So crashgate didn't cost Massa, in my view, but it was a very bad and costly team error, no fault of Massa's. Cost him big time.

 

In Hungary if Massa's engine didn't fail he'd have won, so that cost him 11 points compared to Hamilton. Again, nothing Massa could have done.

 

Spa is different. Hamilton could have just tucked in behind Kimi and followed him through the second part of the bus stop, rather than shortcutting the circuit, and he'd have won. You can't say it wasn't his fault - he was penalised for going off on purpose and gaining an advantage, which he clearly did.



#276 Henrik B

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:57

who have insulted him for years claiming he has brain damage

 

Having "brain damage" is not an insult. Lingering effects from the injury would be a medical explanation to his erratic form the last four years.



#277 Oho

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 07:41

Doctors don't know enough about brain function to declare that he is 100% recovered.

 

Even if they did it would still be pretty pointless to argue he has recovered 100% because they hardly have a baseline to compare against.



#278 Mauseri

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:27

I really hope Massa gets a good seat next year so he can show all the doubters who have insulted him for years claiming he has brain damage, that he is as good as ever and simply had the misfortune of being team mate to one of the best drivers of all time.

Over the past few years Massa had periods when he lost his confidence and speed in comparison with Alonso. But let's face it, this year he has performed to his true level. Quite often outqualifying Alonso, but lacking some strenght in races. Massa's weakness always was making results when he has to fight in a close field with equal cars. In 2007-2008 it was not like that and he was able to drive his own races without worrying too much about full race lenght battling. Also his tyre consumption is higher than Kimi's.

 

I think Massa would still be able to drive 50-50 against Kimi - in qualifying, but Kimi is able to score more podiums.


Edited by Mauseri, 23 September 2013 - 08:29.


#279 Astro

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:10

Doctors don't know enough about brain function to declare that he is 100% recovered.

 

There is no need, IMO. Massa goes around a track faster than his teammate or stay close to him. If his brain injury was a handicap, I guess we should have seem more silly mistakes on track, but personally, I have only seen the same rate of mistakes that he used to have prior to the accident.

 

For me, the most obvious change was not Massa, but the races. For example, until the introduction of DRS, you could have a slower pace than your teammate and win a race as long as you were able to beat him during qualifying. That's because it was very difficult to overtake during this period, and very often teammates could only overtake each other in the pitlane. During the time Massa & Raikkonen were together, it was quite clear Raikkonen had better pace, while Massa was a better qualifier. All that changed with the introduction of DRS and less durable tires. And these changes made his weaknesses more obvious. That would have been so regardless of whether his teammate were Raikkonen or Alonso.



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#280 Thomas99

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:02

 it was quite clear Raikkonen had better pace, while Massa was a better qualifier. 

I'm not sure that was standout clear. Kimi has good consistent race pace but some weekends Massa was equally untouchable. 



#281 August

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:03

Without the amateurish DNF in Sepang, Massa would be the '08 WDC.



#282 Jon83

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:19

True. Ferrari f***ed up. But I believe the Singapore incident was staged. No way Felipe Massa could ever be the last Ferrari WDC. Not with what we've learned in the last couple of years. They wouldn't have been able to shaft him the way they have if he would have been a WDC.

 


:rotfl:

 

You really believe that the team didn't want him to take the title?

 

You're talking about him being 'the last Ferrari WDC' - what does this actually mean? Last of all time?

 

They could have won the title in 2009 with Kimi had they developed a decent car so when would this scenario you speak of have played out?

 

This post probably takes the biscuit as the most paranoid I have ever read on here.



#283 Jon83

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:20

Without the amateurish DNF in Sepang, Massa would be the '08 WDC.

 

That assumes that the rest of the season plays out in exactly the same way.



#284 savidb

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:21

. My friend's doctors assured him that an extremely common, almost universal, legacy is an inability to concentrate consistently following a brain injury. Recovery from this may happen over a year or two, a longer period, or not at all, and that there's no way to predict the timeframe..These are the best people in Britain in their field, so probably not far off the best in the world. I'll take their word over yours on this.

 

If Massa was having concentration problems they would be evident on and off the track, and he does not. He also did not suffer a major brain injury, he had a fractured skull, yet you guys speak as if he has been lobotomised.  His consistency is no worse than 2008 when he made  whole host of howlers and mistakes all while driving  a far better car.



#285 savidb

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:23

Can you answer the following question?

 

Two teams built cars and participated in a motor racing championship. Each entered two drivers.

 

Team A's drivers scored 110 and 94 points. Team B's drivers each scored 109 points.

 

Which team's car scored the most points that season?

 

You claim to have been watching F1 since the 70s, and that is how you judge cars? This is your level of analysis on which car is faster?



#286 August

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:23

That assumes that the rest of the season plays out in exactly the same way.

 

I just wanted to point out that it wasn't only a blown engine and pit stop chaos that costed Felipe the title.



#287 Astro

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:25

I'm not sure that was standout clear. Kimi has good consistent race pace but some weekends Massa was equally untouchable. 

 

Well, AFAIR, when they were following each other (and they were not cruising to the end), the pace was almost invariably in Kimi's side (either approaching Massa, staying close to him, or getting away from him). I wouldn't think it was in every race, but in most of them.