51 replies to this topic

[xmoonrakerx]

Now with Kimi and Fernando i think they have a great drivers lineup but they still need to get someone competent to run the team...bring back ross or todt...Domenicali is just incompetent.

[mnmracer]

So your headline should be "Ferrari needs to hire someone better than Domenicali to be the best team". Only firing him won't do much in that scenario ;-) 

[KavB]

It seems that without Domenicali, Kimi wouldn't even be back at Ferrari  He certainly did a good job there. I'll admit that I thought in 2008 and 2009 that he wasn't very good. But I realise now he's lead the team well, it's just that Red Bull have been better. 

Edited by KavB, 11 September 2013 - 12:50.

[Seanspeed]

I have no idea how people claim team members to be incompetent when they have no idea whats going on behind closed doors.

 

Its completely mindless finger pointing.

Edited by Seanspeed, 11 September 2013 - 12:50.

[EthanM]

bring back ross or todt

 

the firs runs (and part-owns) another team, the second runs the FIA

 

any other choices?

 

No Horner is not available. Maybe you want thong-Flav to run Ferrari?

[Borko]

I would like to see Flavio as Team Principal.

[Seanspeed]

So your headline should be "Ferrari needs to hire someone better than Domenicali to be the best team". Only firing him won't do much in that scenario ;-) 

Also a great point.  People that just call for the cutting of heads rarely seem to have an inkling of an idea on what they should do after that and who would do a better job.

[ArkZ]

I have no idea how people claim team members to be incompetent when they have no idea whats going on behind closed doors.

 

Its completely mindless finger pointing.

I would like to see Flavio as Team Principal.

and 

[rasul]

I would like to see Flavio as Team Principal.

I hope you're kidding.

[unitedevents]

Di Montezemolo is the one to blame. Back in the Todt days, he had much less input. Domenicalli is a good guy.

[GSiebert]

I have no idea how people claim team members to be incompetent when they have no idea whats going on behind closed doors.

 

Its completely mindless finger pointing.

 

 

I guess some people just like hating and bashing, makes them look smart. 

[Borko]

I hope you're kidding.

I am not kidding, why? If you put aside what kind of a person he is, his teams always were extremely successful.

Edited by BorkoF2012, 11 September 2013 - 13:16.

[fabr68]

Ferrari needs to build a top car for quali and race trim.

Otherwise Dimenicalli is going to run out of top drivers quickly to mask this weakness.

[Cool Beans]

I would like to see Flavio as Team Principal.

Oh dear god no.

[Fastcake]

I have no idea how people claim team members to be incompetent when they have no idea whats going on behind closed doors.

Its completely mindless finger pointing.

It's the same idiotic blame the manager idea that infests football.

[Atreiu]

I am not kidding, why? If you put aside what kind of a person he is, his teams always were extremely successful.

That would be like getting a cancer to get rid of a cold.
And he endured a lot through 96-04.

[rasul]

I am not kidding, why? If you put aside what kind of a person he is, his teams always were extremely successful.

No self-respecting team should ever hire a crook and a swindler like Briatore. I don't know about you, but I don't want to see that race-fixing cheat leading my favorite team.

[Lights]

How can we judge team principle performance from our living rooms?

[paulrobs]

I have no idea how people claim team members to be incompetent when they have no idea whats going on behind closed doors.

 

Its completely mindless finger pointing.

Agreed

[paulrobs]

How can we judge team principle performance from our living rooms?

Agreed. 100%

 

Then again, the internet is only populated by geniuses with first hand knowledge of the subjects that they talk about. I know this to be true because I just googled it and found a quote....

[four1]

How can we judge team principle performance from our living rooms?

By listening to and subscribing to such cliches as "Italian spaghetti mentality" and "dream team era".

Edited by four1, 11 September 2013 - 13:49.

[nosecone]

Sorry if i missed those things but can someone of you tell me 10 mistakes Domenicalli did apart from not building the fastest car (what isn't his job as TP)?

 

Thanks in advance

Edited by nosecone, 11 September 2013 - 13:50.

[Reinmuster]

With Kimi onboard now, I say give SD his last chance.

[Nonesuch]

Sorry if i missed those things but can someone of you tell me 10 mistakes Domenicalli did apart from not building the fastest car (what isn't his job as TP)?

 

One thing that inevitably comes up in the Domenicali discussion is his seeming refusal to cause a ruckus. The double diffuser in 2009, the blown diffusers in 2011, the highly dubious Red Bulls of early 2012 following the Monaco 'clarification' by the FIA; examples of cases where Ferrari would probably have benefited to some degree from FIA intervention. Yet he never seems to have played those situations particularly hard.

 

However, it's a bit odd to me that you would exclude what is perhaps the primary job of the team from the valid criticisms of his work at Ferrari. The fact is that Ferrari has been playing catch-up for half a decade now. When was the last time they led the innovation race? That hole in the F2008's nose that nobody bothered to copy?

Edited by Nonesuch, 11 September 2013 - 13:59.

[Seanspeed]

One thing that inevitably comes up in the Domenicali discussion is his seeming refusal to cause a ruckus. The double diffuser in 2009, the blown diffusers in 2011, the highly dubious Red Bulls of early 2012 following the Monaco 'clarification' by the FIA; examples of cases where Ferrari would probably have benefited to some degree from FIA intervention. Yet he never seems to have played those situations particularly hard.

 

However, it's a bit odd to me that you would exclude what is perhaps the primary job of the team from the valid criticisms of his work at Ferrari. The fact is that Ferrari has been playing catch-up for half a decade now. When was the last time they led the innovation race? That hole in the F2008's nose that nobody bothered to copy?

And how do you know that has anything to do with Domenicali? 

 

The technical department have obviously not done a good enough job for a while now.  But its not like Ferrari don't know that.  Each of the past few years, they've been trying to restructure to get the right people in the right jobs.  I'm sure its not easy and we have no idea that somebody else could come in and do it better.  

[nosecone]

One thing that inevitably comes up in the Domenicali discussion is his seeming refusal to cause a ruckus. The double diffuser in 2009, the blown diffusers in 2011, the highly dubious Red Bulls of early 2012 following the Monaco 'clarification' by the FIA; examples of cases where Ferrari would probably have benefited to some degree from FIA intervention. Yet he never seems to have played those situations particularly hard.

 

However, it's a bit odd to me that you would exclude what is perhaps the primary job of the team from the valid criticisms of his work at Ferrari. The fact is that Ferrari has been playing catch-up for half a decade now. When was the last time they led the innovation race? That hole in the F2008's nose that nobody bothered to copy?

i agree, partially.

 

The rules are made by the FiA. As a racing fan you have to approve that he didn't want too many rule "changes" during the season.. But ok maybe you can blame him partially for beeing uninnovative. Maybe he hired uncreative people but isn't this rather a job for the human resources management?

[HP]

I would like to see Flavio as Team Principal.

LdM and Briatore working together???

[HP]

One thing that inevitably comes up in the Domenicali discussion is his seeming refusal to cause a ruckus. The double diffuser in 2009, the blown diffusers in 2011, the highly dubious Red Bulls of early 2012 following the Monaco 'clarification' by the FIA; examples of cases where Ferrari would probably have benefited to some degree from FIA intervention. Yet he never seems to have played those situations particularly hard.

 

However, it's a bit odd to me that you would exclude what is perhaps the primary job of the team from the valid criticisms of his work at Ferrari. The fact is that Ferrari has been playing catch-up for half a decade now. When was the last time they led the innovation race? That hole in the F2008's nose that nobody bothered to copy?

Autosport had at least one article about this and they predicted what would happen at Ferrari after the dream team split up. Kimi's WDC was practically a 'leftover' from the dream team area. And then they predicted the team had to rebuild itself.

 

At the start of this millennium Ferrari was able to use their home track to their heart content, had tires built for their car.

 

One simply cannot blame Domenicali for all of this. I'd think Ferrari did a very good job these years, considering how close they came of winning 2 WDC's with Alonso, and one with Massa. Compare that for example with McLaren.

 

And just to say even during JT/MS time, the team made rather conservative steps ahead. For many years during the dream team the Ferrari was an evolution of the previous year. In 2003 they initially lost their way with the car, even there showing cracks in the dream team.

 

If there is one team that we could attribute innovation to, then I would put McLaren far, far ahead.

 

If I would fault the team, then mainly for keeping Massa too long. And I don't say that easily, considering that Ferrari is 'my' team and I'd hoped for Massa to win a WDC with Ferrari.

[Nonesuch]

And how do you know that has anything to do with Domenicali? 

 

The first part of my post does, I think, have something to do with Domenicali, though we can't know what kind of deals are made behind the scenes and what kind of room for manoeuvring he has, or gets, from Di Montezemolo. Perhaps it is for the better of the sport in general that the repeated filing of official protests with the FIA has subsided somewhat, but especially the back-and-forth surrounding Silverstone 2011 has left a bitter taste for me. I just have a hard time imagining Todt 'giving up' like it seemed (!) Domenicali did.

 

 

Maybe he hired uncreative people but isn't this rather a job for the human resources management?

 

Perhaps, and even then, when it comes to developing F1 cars the results only matter in relation to other cars: even the best car Ferrari can build might not be the fastest, while on the other hand to be the fastest they only need to beat the other teams. I can't think of any way you can really plan for that sort of thing.

 

One simply cannot blame Domenicali for all of this. I'd think Ferrari did a very good job these years, considering how close they came of winning 2 WDC's with Alonso, and one with Massa. Compare that for example with McLaren.

 

You're absolutely right that there is no doubt Ferrari is still a top team.   I don't think the criticisms directed towards them would be as harsh if, say, 2010 had gone Hamilton's way and 2012 had been a win for Alonso. Both would have been very possible! But four years of Vettel and Red Bull winning the WDC and WCC leads to some frustration, I imagine. It has that effect on me, in any case.

 

In any case, if the story that Domenicali pushed for Raikkonen against Di Montezemolo's wishes is true, then good for him. That might, and I think it will, turn out to be an inspired effort.

Edited by Nonesuch, 11 September 2013 - 14:44.

[William Hunt]

Domenicali is just incompetent.

 

How do you know that Domenicali is incompetent? Do you work for Ferrari management? What gives you the competence to Judge someone that you haven't even met once in your life? What work do you do that you claim to be in a position to call someone in no doubt another field of work as yours incompetent?

[MikeV1987]

I'm waiting for you to elaborate why he's so incompetent, I always have a laugh when armchair experts bash TPs.

Edited by MikeV1987, 11 September 2013 - 16:41.

[Menace]

I would like to see Flavio as Team Principal.

 

Yeah, Alonso's manager and the big slimy cheat should lead the team...

[eronrules]

let the 'Dear President' Luca Di Montezemolo's words give a clear answer to OP's question

 

 

 

There was also time for some words about the team boss, Stefano Domenicali.    “Stefano was born and raised with us from all managerial points of view. But as a sportsman, he knows he needs results. However, when one talks about Domenicali, one truth is king: under his management we have one one Constructors’ title and come very close to three Drivers’ titles. Two of those we could easily have won and then people’s opinion of Domenicali would be very different.

There’s one thing I remind him of very often: he has to get the most out of every individual in his organisation, never be satisfied and if necessary, take some drastic and painful decisions.” - See more at: http://formula1.ferr...h.Tw3dyHuJ.dpuf

 

both of those comments make sense. in formula one, reputation is built on success, what u achieve is what u make your legacy with. 

 

and after the recent signing of Kimi, i'd say SD has taken some drastic decision. now will it bear fruit or be painful ... only time can tell.

 

 

also i'd like all to read the interview Stefano Domenicalli gave to Formula1.com website ... it'll dispel some myths and give a profound insight into what it means to run the maranello team and the pain and pleasures associated with it. a little snippet from the whole conversation (which is big)

 

http://www.formula1....13/8/14919.html

 

 

 

Q: With so many difficulties to overcome, is there still a good side to being Ferrari’s team principal?
SD:  ...... I can assure you that there are a million people who would like to sit in this chair - and at the moment it’s me. I try to do the maximum for the benefit of this fantastic team......

Q: You say a million people would love to sit in this chair, but how many could really do it?
SD: Not so many.
.......... (read for more)

 

 

Q: What then is your biggest strength that allows you to survive in this position?
SD: First, that I am fully dedicated to this company; and secondly, that I try to be very open and direct. I have nothing to hide. Nothing personal, only professional - for the benefit of the team.

[bourbon]

Everyone always wants to fire the TPs.   This year, Brawn, Whitmarsh, Horner, Boullier and of course Dom.  There is a link there somewhere, I will think on it and figure out what these men have in common.

[Fontainebleau]

Everyone always wants to fire the TPs.   This year, Brawn, Whitmarsh, Horner, Boullier and of course Dom.  There is a link there somewhere, I will think on it and figure out what these men have in common.

That we would all love to be in their shoes?

[spinne]

I am not kidding, why? If you put aside what kind of a person he is, his teams always were extremely successful.

And what happened with his team between 1996 and 2004?

[eronrules]

the problem is that people's perception (including me sometimes  ) of TP's are that they only work on the race weekends and make stupid decisions which causes his/her favorite driver to loose points. but most fail to comprehend what goes behind a race strategy.

 

1. driver's qualification position.

2  performance and characteristics of the car in long runs during FPs 

3. track characteristics and track evolution

4. Fuel consumption and tire degradation, difference between compounds

5. overtaking possibilities, grid slots, first corner characteristics,

6. drivers ahead and behind, and there starting performances

7. Gearing and wind direction, downforce level,  DRS zones and effectiveness etc etc etc 

 

funny thing is, even with the most solid and effective (verified by simulation) pit strategy, the teams always have to improvise and sometimes completely alter pit strategy depending on what there rivals are doing, (i.e covering , undercutting , safety car, changeable weather). so it's sort of a 'black art' rather than a 'definite science'

 

what people don't understand is that running the GP weekends are perhaps only 5-10% of the whole workload of a TP. Historically, team principals also used to be team owners, like jordan, prost, Enzo, Sauber, Dennis, williams. but such is the complexity of modern day formula one that it is virtually impossible for one person to own a team all by him/herself and run it efficiently.

 

these days most teams are run in a corporate management structure with the Team principal appointed by the business conglomerate or owners owning the team. while this reduces the power of TP in areas such as driver choice, engine negotiation, financial matter, wages , factories , sponsors etc , it gives them more managerial power in decision making.

 

typical TP has to do the followings (feel free to correct me)

 

1. management organisation

2. Guide the direction of development by signing off updates or design direction with the approval of the technical personals.

3. managing a GP weekend, including sponsor events (in some cases)

4. negotiation with the FOM, FIA, TWG, FOTA

5. driver management within the team, technical briefings and debriefings, attending and scheduling press conferences

6. management of facilities, upgrading, material costs, suppliers negotiations etc.

7. Sitting on the Pit wall, making and improvising decisions on pit stop strategies (every team has a prior pit strategy made before the race which evolves during the race)

8. driver negotiation, searching for new talent, assessing current driver performance etc

9. diverting and allocating resources for current and upcoming seasons, decision on when to switch focus.

10. maintaining harmony between different fractions within the team, i.e track engineers, designers, aerodynamicists, vehicle chassis department, electronics, engine guys etc.

[destiny]

I would like to see Flavio as Team Principal.

He might steal Kimi's brakes before the race...

[destiny]

I think Domenicalli  has thrown a Hail Mary pass by convincing LDM to take KIMI onboard.He has put his neck on the line.He would do create all  necessary conditions for Kimi to succeed and validate his decision.

 

Give him 2 more years,time till kimi's contract ends 

[autosportfan]

I would like to see Flavio as Team Principal.

Please no, not that liar in his tangas...

Edited by autosportfan, 11 September 2013 - 19:38.

[Bruce]

Ferrari needs a faster car. 

 

Period. 

[bernardv]

Ferrari need to start making innovations that work and seeking young talent. For years they only throw their enormous budget at getting the most expensive drivers and copying technical solutions that work for other top teams. Any idiot can do that. Finding (and trusting!!!) young talent and stimulating technical inventions takes true management gift.

[Fontainebleau]

And what happened with his team between 1996 and 2004?

The same thing than to McLaren between 1978 and 1983. Borko is correct, Briatore has been very succesful in F1, and accepting so does not mean condoning his behaviour at all times.

[V3TT3L]

Domenicali in not the problem.

Considering the mith of partitioned parties inside Ferrari, SD does a good job making them work together.

 

The problem is the is only on Adrian Newey, just as there was only on Leonardo Da Vinci.

According to Helmut Marko, Newey build the structure of RedBull, hired capable people he likes, who understands his assignments and works well.

So, no chance of leaving RB to Ferrari. 

[wrcva]

I would like to see Flavio as Team Principal.

 

He is lucky to have Bernie get him off the hook from manslaughter charges under the Singapore penal code.   I would not let him run any team other than maybe a jail house rock band, in jail...

[JHSingo]

How is he incompetent? I don't see how he is doing a better/worse job than any of the others, to be honest.

 

Firing the team boss is a football mentality of firing the manager. Things are different in racing.

[pingu666]

I have no idea how people claim team members to be incompetent when they have no idea whats going on behind closed doors.

 

Its completely mindless finger pointing.

 

I think its funny how horner gets no credit, and gets called a puppet, yet has clearly done the best job in results , and making a well run machiine.

[Kingshark]

Stefano Domenicali is not the problem at Ferrari, the lack of development compared to Red Bull is. That's not SD's problem, but rather that of Pat Fry, who's the technical director of the team. Nevertheless, with James Allison now onboard, Ferrari's development in 2014 should be better (should).

 

I would argue that as a team, to make strategic calls, Domenicali is great. The only reason to why Ferrari beat McLaren in 2012 despite their slower car, was because of the brilliance of the Ferrari pit wall (compared to Macca). Ferrari constantly made the right calls, very  fast pit stops, etc... better than any other team.

 

It's not the management of the team that has been Ferrari's problem in recent years, in fact, that was probably Ferrari's biggest strength last year. Ferrari's biggest problems have been the technical department.

 

Although I have to admit, Flavio would be a nice addition to the team. He has a "win at all costs" attitude, and knows Fernando quite well.

Edited by Kingshark, 12 September 2013 - 00:53.

[fabr68]

I don't think anyone should be fired.   However, Ferrari should really look into what happened at Silverstone 2011 and this year clusterf#@^& with the mid season Pirelli tire changing spec.     There is nothing that drivers or the technical team can do of other teams manipulate the FIA and regulations to their advantage.  That is the team management's job.      If other team bosses hustled their way through championships then Ferrari really needs to reinforce that department and see what they can do better.

 

It does not matter if you have two world champions and a car that wins Barcelona only to have the carped pulled from under your feet to fall flat in your face and don't know what hit you.   Ferrari got shafted this year with the mid-season tire specification change, just like they did in 2011 with the off-throtled diffuser fiasco.  

 

If next year they start with a car advantage be sure other team principals will look into eliminating it.   This is how this sport works and if you don't know how to play you will get screwed over and over and over...

[Morbus]

Di Montezemolo is the one to blame. Back in the Todt days, he had much less input. Domenicalli is a good guy.

 

This. Di Montezemolo is the real cancer at Ferrari and the real problem behind their slump. He just has no sporting attitude and Ferrari is suffering because of that. I like Ferrari as much as anyone, but right now they are just a bunch of spoiled rich brats and squander oppurtunities, money and talent. I pity the people who work there.