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What Does Alonso Know That Kimi Doesn't?


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#1 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:26

This question keeps coming up for me and here is my thinking:

1 At Hungary, Alonso sent his emissary to Red Bull to enquire about Webber's seat; At the same weekend, he said he wanted another's car for his birthday (perhaps jokingly, perhaps not - but his management did pay a visit to RBR/Horner (so it couldn't all be just him joking))

 

2 This indicated that he was willing to 'take on' another "Rooster" in that own rooster's "Hen House" (i.e. Vettel)

 

3 There were rumours around that the Ferrari turbo for 2014 was likely to be the inferior - and that Mercedes asked for bigger rear Pirellis (to, presumably, help them from an extra 100 bhp from their turbo engine)

 

So, why was Alonso willing to leave Ferrari to go to RBR and take on Vettel?

 

And, why did Kimi not sign with RBR and, instead, sign with Ferrari?

 

A. We know that Kimi wants to win more GPs and more success - something Lotus couldn't guarantee "technically and financially". So, for Kimi, the choice was only between RBR/Vettel and Ferrari/Alonso.

 

B. It wasn't money. RBR could afford the same pay package - and Horner said it wasn't money that was the issue. So, money wise Ferrari deal ~ = ~ Red Bull deal - Basically.

 

So, what does Alonso know that Kimi doesn't?

 

???

 

Why did Alonso want to "jump ship"????

 

(After all, Nando was willing to have Vettel as the other "rooster" at another team, no?)

 

---

 

The only three answers I could come up with are:

 

1. Alonso damaged his relationship with di Montezemolo beyond repair for some reason (and only him and di Montezemo know, perhaps Domenicalli);

 

2. Alonso thinks the Ferrari turbo won't be as good as the Mercedes turbo (but Hamilton/Rosberg there already) OR as good as Renault turbo (and he's willing to take the risk of going up against Vettel - but with Newey and Co being better than Fry and Co);

 

3. Kimi actually doesn't know how "bad" the Ferrari turbo might be vis-a-vis the Mercedes turbo and Renault turbo (but Alonso actually knows this).

 

What do people think?

 

The other thing could be that Kimi actually knows MORE about Ferrari turbo vs Renault turbo than Alonso did at Hungary. Possibility??

 

Thoughts?


Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 12 September 2013 - 02:54.


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#2 Andrew Hope

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:28

Thoughts? I want to kill myself.



#3 Obi Offiah

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:33

'What Does Alonso Know That Kimi Doesn't?'

Exactly where to hit the ice cream dispenser machine to get free ice creams?



#4 Tron

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:39

'What Does Alonso Know That Kimi Doesn't?'

How to speak Spanish.



#5 gm914

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:39

FIAT engines. 



#6 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:43

FIAT engines. 

 

You mean Rallying?

 

Hmmm.

 

Ok, I can accept that.

 

So, you're saying that Ferrari will let Kimi go rallying with FIAT whereas Red Bull wasn't going to let him go rallying?

 

OK.



#7 Disgrace

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:44

'What Does Alonso Know That Kimi Doesn't?'

How to pronounce schemi.



#8 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:49

Listen guys, why all the sarcasm and jokes? (Although I do think that some of them are quite clever and funny!  ;) :cat:  :up:  :cool: )

 

Anyway - Think about it, please?

 

Why did Alonso want to jump ship and go to Red Bull ... While Kimi decided not to go to Red Bull eventhough he had a bigger shot at it?

 

Why?

 

Only one other member has given a serious answer - Rallying for FIAT.

 

But the main job is F1 ... so something doesn't add up (unless Rallying occasionally is more important to Kimi than winning more F1 races and becoming F1 World Champion again).


Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 12 September 2013 - 02:52.


#9 Atreiu

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:56

Besides its own drink, Red Bull sells its driver program as a worthy and fruitful path to F1. Helmut Marko wanted Ricciardo all along for numerous reasons, which include the worth and sake of the driver program. That was it. Simultaneously, Ferrari wanted a stronger pair,

Seems quite simple, IMO.

If Alonso somehow had inside knowledge, so would Briattore, and he would have definitely have made a lot of noise. The guys loves the spotlight.

#10 KingTiger

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:57

Plain and simple, Alonso knows how bad the Ferrari really is, while Kimi only cares about the amount of money Ferrari can spend, having watched his last 2 seasons in Lotus lose steam due to funds. (Though they should thank the tires for letting them be there in the first place)



#11 boldhakka

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:58

Fernando was bluffing and Ferrari called his bluff.

#12 mclarensmps

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:00

Maybe the answer is simple. Maybe he knew Kimi was coming to Ferrari before Kimi did?



#13 Tron

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:01

Fernando was bluffing and Ferrari called his bluff.

 

Guess Kimi will invite him for poker soon. :rotfl:



#14 Tron

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:03

Maybe the answer is simple. Maybe he knew Kimi was coming to Ferrari before Kimi did?

 

Might be right.

 

Or perhaps, jokes aside, Alonso knows of the potential of next year's car, but wanted more garuantees like a Newey Redbull, but then couldn't swallow the prospect of leaving Ferrari and Kimi wins in it.



#15 Boxerevo

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:06

While Kimi decided not to go to Red Bull eventhough he had a bigger shot at it?

 

 

 

Listen,you are wrong.

 

Kimi was vetoed by Marko and RedBull.Red Bull no doubt was the first choice of Kimi,Alonso,Hamilton or anywone moving out and looking to win.


Edited by Boxerevo, 12 September 2013 - 03:07.


#16 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:11

Listen,you are wrong.

 

Kimi was vetoed by Marko and RedBull.Red Bull no doubt was the first choice of Kimi,Alonso,Hamilton or anywone moving out and looking to win.

 

Fine, I'm willing to accept that my assumption was wrong.

 

So, you're saying that Kimi didn't really have a choice?

 

OK. But - How does that jive with Horner insisting repeatedly that it was Kimi and Ricciardo (and, before that, Vergne)?



#17 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:19

Besides its own drink, Red Bull sells its driver program...

 

Helmut Marko wanted Ricciardo all along for numerous reasons, which include the worth... of the driver program. That was it.

 

That is very interesting.

 

I didn't not know that the Young Driver Program is a profit generator per se'.

 

I didn't not know that instead of Red Bull "subsidizing" the YDP to "find talent", Marko actually runs it for profit and "sells a possible path to F1" to kids with money.

 

If that is the case, then I can understand why they didn't take Kimi.

 

Now that you bring it up, RBR have really only signed two guys since Webber (from Williams) in the summer of 2006.

 

Yes I can possibly buy that...In over 7 years only two guys have been signed by RBR: Vettel and Ricciardo. 

 

Interesting.


Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 12 September 2013 - 03:25.


#18 SUPRAF1

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:19

Maybe Kimi thought that since Ferrari is an engine manufacturer there is a higher chance of their car being stronger in 2014?

 

James Allison may also have played a part.


Edited by SUPRAF1, 12 September 2013 - 03:20.


#19 Disgrace

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:21

Maybe Kimi thought that since Ferrari is an engine manufacturer there is a higher chance of their car being stronger in 2014?

 

He's also effectively following James Allison, with whom he presumably already has a relationship.



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#20 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:27

He's also effectively following James Allison, with whom he presumably already has a relationship.

 

Plus, he's already worked with Domenically and, also, Fry (at McLaren).

 

Allison, Domenically and Fry have all worked with Kimi before and won Grands Prix with him.

 

:up:


Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 12 September 2013 - 03:29.


#21 pingu666

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:34

i wouldnt worry about the engine thing tbh, as theres unlikely to be certainties, and theres still plenty of time to find a bunch of performance



#22 lbennie

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:43

Kimi didn't have a say in whether he got the Red Bull seat. He's said this himself. Red Bull simply chose Ricciardo instead for whatever reasons.

 

Kimi's choice then came down to Lotus or Ferrari which is a no brainer at the moment.



#23 RealRacing

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:45

Silly Samurai quotes?



#24 PassWind

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:30

Ray,

You end up with a supposition based on an assumption that the manager went to Redbull to talk about Alonso. Fair enough and I guess people will provide whatever comes to mind in guessing Alonso's assumed intentions.

The assumption however isn't a reasonable one based on several things, it was never said by any of the parties that any talks were about Alonso, it was however assumed by several media outlets, who aside from the Headlines provide not one statement of fact that specifically states thats what occured, the answers provided were akin to mind your own business, of course as media do they then make up their own story to extrapolate whatever is going to get people to read their stories.

The person who went there does not only deal just with Alonso, the person who went there could have gone there for several reasons, where did you buy that shirt? car? we share the same hobby. He could have even been acting on Alonso's intructions to get one of the drivers to be his team mate, namely Mark Webber from retiring, maybe Alonso already knew that Massa was out and trying to get who he wanted in the team.

I think it was most likely a visit in relationship to the Torro Rosso seats and the potential to fill it, or a third driver role. In my opinion Ferrari's Junior driving program is guff and it would do itself a good turn by taking a interest in Sauber and setting it up like Torro Rosso, and it would also get some access to a decent wind tunnel.

There are multiple parts to Redbulls sucess after Ferrari, and Renault and they took what was needed to another level from the Ferrai method. Ferrari seems to have gone back to its roots of just get the right drivers and its all good. MS just didn't come as a driver he came as a package, neither Alonso or Kimi have that at this stage, in the Moto GP world you had Dooha/Burgess, Rossi Burgess. Redbull made theirs from scratch however integrated a robust driver selection process that may have high wastage but has nearly secured 4 WCC's on the trot.

Mercedes is the other team trying to do that right now Ferrari's intial program took time to produce however since Micheal left the team their direction seems more haphazard as if there is nothing much to change but as McLaren learnt after Mikka you may think you have it right and get close a lot but you cannot have one weakness in the team overall these days, be it the widget making guy to the driver.

#25 discover23

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:00

Kimi didn't have a say in whether he got the Red Bull seat. He's said this himself. Red Bull simply chose Ricciardo instead for whatever reasons. Kimi's choice then came down to Lotus or Ferrari which is a no brainer at the moment.


They already gave the reasons .

#26 lbennie

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:29

They already gave the reasons .

 

ok?



#27 FirstWatt

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:45

Nothing of all this.

 

Alonso just was deeply disappointed about the performance of Ferrarri in those summer races, and, to top all this, he got it that Ferrari was seriously interested in another top driver (Kimi) alongside him. Which, tbh, is some sort of sign (at least he may have perceived this that way) that they didn't have full confidence in him about extracting everything from the car, mainly in qualifying.

 

So, as a hot blooded latin that he is, he started his "countermeasures" and contacted RB etc.



#28 aliroy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:02

I think this thread is not needed. Alonso and Kimi are both intelligent and will know as much as each other. You forget to mention that many people think Alonso had a 'special' contract in place. That contract has either been put in the bin, or Kimi is joining under Alonso's rumoured terms. If it's in the bin than that would be a reason for anyone to want to leave a job. Also, Alonso is not as stupid as many newspaper writers and forum posters. These drivers also work extremely hard to get where they are. Alonso's comments have been down to frustration with the car and strategy. This happened in the past with drivers and will happen in the future. Sometimes I wish Kimi would talk more, but then he would have more haters. Regarding Alonso's manager talking to Red Bull. This is perfectly normal. Despite schumacher's agreement to only worj with Brawn, his manager would have stayed in touch with opportunities. It's what managers do.

#29 Alexandros

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:11

I believe that Renault will be the inferior engine for next year, not the Ferrari. The order horsepower-wise will probably be

 

Mercedes (+biggest unreliability)

Ferrari (medium power + reliable)

Renault (slightly lacking in power + occasionally unreliable) 

 

...Renault couldn't even make a good atmospheric engine for over a decade, I don't see how they can escalate and excel in a more complex engine. It's not like they have immense know-how in these type of motors.

 

With this estimation in mind, Kimi jumping ship was the proper course of action - given that the Mercedes seats are taken. At the same time, Alonso wanting to jump ship would be the wrong move. Adrian can make a fast car and negate small hp disadvantages but not major ones - at least not on most tracks that require both power and downforce. 



#30 Kobasmashi

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:25

I believe that Renault will be the inferior engine for next year, not the Ferrari. The order horsepower-wise will probably be

Mercedes (+biggest unreliability)
Ferrari (medium power + reliable)
Renault (slightly lacking in power + occasionally unreliable)

...Renault couldn't even make a good atmospheric engine for over a decade, I don't see how they can escalate and excel in a more complex engine. It's not like they have immense know-how in these type of motors


And you're basing this on... what exactly? Renault introduced turbos to formula 1 in 1977.

#31 CoolBreeze

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:34

Alonso is just tired of the Bull dominance, and want to have a piece of it as well. Plain and simple. Ferrari have been second class since 2009.



#32 jedioriginal

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:50

Listen,you are wrong.
 
Kimi was vetoed by Marko and RedBull.Red Bull no doubt was the first choice of Kimi,Alonso,Hamilton or anywone moving out and looking to win.

Imo, Red Bull was playing hardball trying to get Kimi Half free,they thought Kimis only choises very Lotus or Red Bull. Imo they really didnt know that Ferrari was in play too.I bet Horner almost choked when he realises that Kimi signed with Ferrari.

#33 Boing 2

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:52

Or maybe the approach to Red Bull was an attempt at a warning shot over Ferraris boughs to discourage the hiring of Raikonnen.



#34 HPT

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:02

"why did Kimi not sign with RBR and, instead, sign with Ferrari?"

 

It was because Red Bull didn't want to sign him and chose Ricciardo instead. It wasn't in Kimi's hands. I think you just wasted your time trying to analyze that  :kiss:



#35 EthanM

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:07

Why did Alonso want to jump ship and go to Red Bull ... While Kimi decided not to go to Red Bull eventhough he had a bigger shot at it?

 

 

Why did Alonso want to jump ship and go to Red Bull: If you believe AMUS he didn't. He just used the pretense of talking to Red Bull as a way to put subtle pressure on Ferrari. And it just backfired on him http://www.auto-moto...ri-7695744.html

 

Why didn't Kimi decide not to go to Red Bull: If you believe Helmut Marko Red Bull turned Kimi down, not the other way around



#36 Iridescent

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:29

 

Why didn't Kimi decide not to go to Red Bull: If you believe Helmut Marko Red Bull turned Kimi down, not the other way around

 

Unfortunately HM is far from the most trustworthy person in the paddock. RBR were seriously interested actually, though in the end they didn't opt for Kimi for one or another reason I'd rather not discuss on here. Kimster's first choice, however, has always been with Ferrari.



#37 Alexandros

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:29

And you're basing this on... what exactly? Renault introduced turbos to formula 1 in 1977.

 

Yeah, 30 years ago is mighty relevant. May I remind you that the dominance of Honda was quite irrelevant just a few years later?

 

On another issue, think in terms of budget these companies have and their willingness to spend in order to succeed. Who do you think will outspend the others? Renault? Not really.



#38 Steve99

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:38

I believe that Renault will be the inferior engine for next year, not the Ferrari.


 

 

Why? Renault has as much experience in building engines as its rivals, and has won a whole load of titles across the years. Stories of the Mercedes having a 100bhp advantage are nonsense, and also overlook the variable that is reliability.

 

As for the original question, Raikkonen has clearly been offered an attractive deal, and Alonso wants to go up against him.



#39 FirstWatt

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:55

[...]Kimster's first choice, however, has always been with Ferrari.

Great to hear this from someone who knows this from inside.

 

And, btw., which is in line with what Leo Turrini wrote here:

9) 2013, inizio luglio. Si sparge la voce che Raikkonen abbia firmato per la Red Bull (che lo sponsorizzava proprio nei rally). Io incontro il Dom e gli chiedo lumi su questa ipotesi. Lui mi guarda e ride. Non capisco. Dimmi perchè sghignazzi, gli domando. Risposta: per ora sappi solo solo che il Santo Bevitore la Red Bull lo vuole sul serio, ma lui non ha firmato e secondo me non firmerà. Non per loro.

In essence:

Leo asks Dom early in July, if the paddock rumours are true that Kimi has signed for RB. Dom laughs and tells him: "For now, be assured that RB really wants Kimi, but Kimi has not signed, and in my opinion, he will not sign. Not for them."



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#40 Shiroo

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:57

I would go with "SPANISH" as an answer.

I don't know about Italian though, Kimi might know few words, but Alonso seems to be speaking in Italian pretty decent nowdays.



#41 Burtros

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:03

Thoughts?

 

Where is all this stuff about Merc having an Extra 100bhp over the others coming from?

 

It seems so unlikely that such a large gap could exist between engines built to the same rule book.



#42 aliroy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:04

I find it quite sad the negativity aimed at Alonso and Kimi regarding Red Bull drives. If they had 2 Mark Webbers at Red Bull, I'm in no doubt they would have employed Kimi or indeed Alonso, if that's what Fernando *truly* wanted (only he and his Girlfriend know his deepest thoughts, not Andrew Benson, or armchair fans). However, I see no derogatory comments or swipes at Vettel, when it is mostly likely that he either vetoed a move for a top driver, or Red Bull simply protected him and are doing what worked well for schumacher in a *dominant car*. Of course Ferrari havn't had a dominant car in along time for them to be compared in the same light (as far as No1 driver policy working properly goes) Lets be honest with ourselves, if Ferrari find they have a dominant car again, a decision (by Ferrari) might have to be made to cripple the first driver who is out of the running for the championship. This IMO is quite an obvious thing to do for an F1 team, but god forbid, this forum will go into meltdown the day that happens to either Kimi or Alonso.

#43 FirstWatt

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:06

I believe that Renault will be the inferior engine for next year, not the Ferrari. The order horsepower-wise will probably be

 

Mercedes (+biggest unreliability)

Ferrari (medium power + reliable)

Renault (slightly lacking in power + occasionally unreliable) 

 

[...]

I'd be very surprised if anyone even inside the paddock can give an estimate about the relative competitiveness of the engines for next year.

The internal combustion engine is pretty restricted, and the fuel flow is restricted too. I cannot think of a reason that these engines will have a greatly different power output.

The MGU-K (the electrical motor/generator) is limited at 120kW per rules.

Net max power will not vary much, I believe, and also stationary torque.

 

The big thing will be to bring together all elements, and get the best out of generating and storing energy from braking and from the turbo (MGU-H), and releasing it in a clever way.

 

This has a lot to do with clever algorithms.

 

I do not believe that any driver can base a decision just on what is known today about the power units.


Edited by FirstWatt, 12 September 2013 - 09:07.


#44 aliroy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:13

Regarding the comments on the new engines so far. Laughable! The package as a whole is very complicated and the difference between each engine may not be as much as the difference in how each team implements the whole package. Did you know they are recovering waste heat from the turbo? The Energy Recovery Systems are offering a lot more power. Also regarding Renault, they are heavily involved in the new Formula E technology where recovery is a key. McLaren and Williams are also building systems for that formula. Renault have been innovators each time the engine rules changed. I remember them producing a wider V angle that was considered risky and not as good as others, yet Alonso ended up putting to great use.

#45 aliroy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:16

My post not aimed at FirstWatt (cant edit)

#46 Ramses1348

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:22

What worries me regarding the ferrari engine is that Gilles Simon, who was part of the dream team of the early 2000, has left the team and has been replaced by Luca Marmorini, ex Toyota. Those engines at Toyota were never special were they... Obviously it's not one person who designs and builds the engine, but I'd rather have Gilles Simon still with us than unproven Luca Marmorini! I hope I'm wrong about him and those boring toyota engines...



#47 maverick69

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:42

What worries me regarding the ferrari engine is that Gilles Simon, who was part of the dream team of the early 2000, has left the team and has been replaced by Luca Marmorini, ex Toyota. Those engines at Toyota were never special were they... Obviously it's not one person who designs and builds the engine, but I'd rather have Gilles Simon still with us than unproven Luca Marmorini! I hope I'm wrong about him and those boring toyota engines...

 

IMHO, the specific power from the ICE's (at just 1600cc) is unlikely to vary that much. The fuel flow restriction will see to that. It's all of the other gumph that comes with it that will be deciding factor. That I would say would be more down to Magnetti Marelli than the latent engine design skills of Marmorini. 



#48 Vesuvius

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:52

What worries me regarding the ferrari engine is that Gilles Simon, who was part of the dream team of the early 2000, has left the team and has been replaced by Luca Marmorini, ex Toyota. Those engines at Toyota were never special were they... Obviously it's not one person who designs and builds the engine, but I'd rather have Gilles Simon still with us than unproven Luca Marmorini! I hope I'm wrong about him and those boring toyota engines...

 

Toyota engines were actually the only strong point in their car.



#49 sheepgobba

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:08

IMHO, the specific power from the ICE's (at just 1600cc) is unlikely to vary that much. The fuel flow restriction will see to that. It's all of the other gumph that comes with it that will be deciding factor. That I would say would be more down to Magnetti Marelli than the latent engine design skills of Marmorini. 

 

My impression was that he only become the head of the entire program from 2006 to 2009? 

 

We'll see next year however. 


Edited by sheepgobba, 12 September 2013 - 10:14.


#50 Clatter

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:16

I believe that Renault will be the inferior engine for next year, not the Ferrari. The order horsepower-wise will probably be

 

Mercedes (+biggest unreliability)

Ferrari (medium power + reliable)

Renault (slightly lacking in power + occasionally unreliable) 

 

...Renault couldn't even make a good atmospheric engine for over a decade, I don't see how they can escalate and excel in a more complex engine. It's not like they have immense know-how in these type of motors.

 

With this estimation in mind, Kimi jumping ship was the proper course of action - given that the Mercedes seats are taken. At the same time, Alonso wanting to jump ship would be the wrong move. Adrian can make a fast car and negate small hp disadvantages but not major ones - at least not on most tracks that require both power and downforce. 

They couldn't? They were WCC only 7 years ago, so what 10 year period are you talking about.