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IndyCar Grand Prix of Houston


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Poll: Why not.. (54 member(s) have cast votes)

Sato?

  1. Sato (14 votes [25.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.93%

  2. Sato (9 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  3. Sato (8 votes [14.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.81%

  4. Sato (16 votes [29.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.63%

  5. Sato (7 votes [12.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.96%

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#601 AustinF1

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:43

TBH, I've never seen anything strong enough yet to keep all the bits inside the track other than concrete.

Have you been reading this thread? I don;t think that's what anyone is asking for. Again, it seems pretty clear we're not talking about that. There's a gaping hole in the fence that two or three cars could fit through....a few feet from a grandstand.

 

If this is acceptable, then what's the point of even having the fence in the first place?


Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2013 - 02:49.


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#602 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:43

 

10146896193_8ae857a87c_b.jpg
 
Photo courtesy of "BigTex" on the FerrariChat.com forum.
 
I was in front of the temporary grey building for the start of the race (just to the right of these stands). Pretty much right where Dario's car struck the fence, apparently. We left there after the first yellow.

 

 

Am I looking at this right? it seems like only one end of the fence sections is concreted into the ground, and the other end is just half a pole looped over the next section of fencing?

 

It looks like the section of bent back fencing just lifted right up and off the pole it was attached to, the loops are still intact.


Edited by johnmhinds, 08 October 2013 - 02:47.


#603 AustinF1

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:45

Am I looking at this right? it seems like only one end of the fence sections is concreted into the ground, and the other end is just half a pole looped over the next section of fencing?

 

It looks like the section of bent back fencing just lifted right up and off the pole it was attached to, the loops are still intact.

I think you're right. Nice catch. The other section ended up in the stands and then off on the ground in front of them.


Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2013 - 02:46.


#604 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:49

Looking at it again it seems that neither end of the fence is attached to the ground, the sections just slide over a pole on either end.

 

No wonder the fence lifted off and landed at the back of the grandstand behind it...



#605 Imperial

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:22

I say Dario should return and keep racing, solely on the basis he has flipped and flown so many times the odds are actually with him for it not to happen again.

#606 greenman

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:59

Another great vid from the stands

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8yTZTyRzECg

 

Look at dat fence



#607 stewie

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:18

Wow that massive bit of fence that ended up in the crowd, scary!



#608 Prost1997T

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:36

Local ABC affiliate said that the two fans that were evaluated in hospital were released yesterday.



#609 Rinehart

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:43

Better a bit of fence ending up in the stands than the whole car going there

Yeah, a lot of people criticising the safety features that essentially worked, within a reasonable remit of hope and expectation.



#610 Spillage

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:55

http://m.click2houst...lz/-/index.html Scary stuff



#611 Shambolic

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:27

Another great vid from the stands

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8yTZTyRzECg

 

Look at dat fence

 

He might have even caught the crash on video, if he hadn't spent the race filming the big screen...



#612 Kobasmashi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:35

Thankfully that fence is mostly empty space, it would have been even scarier if it were concrete or a car part. Does anyone know if the flying tyre hit anyone? I get Monza 2000 vibes when I see them fly like that. The sound in the video from the grandstand is quite remarkable

#613 Prost1997T

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:55

Thankfully that fence is mostly empty space, it would have been even scarier if it were concrete or a car part. Does anyone know if the flying tyre hit anyone? I get Monza 2000 vibes when I see them fly like that. The sound in the video from the grandstand is quite remarkable

 

It hit an advertising banner and landed in some grass away from the stands. By the way the tyre was stationary, Viso knocked it off the track when he was unsighted immediately after the Sato\Franchitti contact.


Edited by Prost1997T, 08 October 2013 - 11:56.


#614 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:24

I take it Dario is in for more surgery. Maybe tony stewart will be out of his cart in time to turn it over to Dario. Any conjecture on who Chip will put in the car for the rest of the season? Juan?

As appealing as that prospect is, think about it.  Give Juan a chance to be better for his competitor next season AND learn insider info about how the team is run?



#615 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 13:01

As appealing as that prospect is, think about it.  Give Juan a chance to be better for his competitor next season AND learn insider info about how the team is run?

Yeah, probably so. But then I don't think there is much info that Penske needs from Chip...

#616 Andrew Hope

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 14:30

Yeah, probably so. But then I don't think there is much info that Penske needs from Chip...

The standings would suggest otherwise.



#617 expert

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 14:59

Confession time: I was thinking about the race trying to go to sleep last night and I did wonder if what's-her-name would go to the hospital.

 

I was under the impression they were already back together.

 

Not that I care about anything like that of course...


Edited by expert, 08 October 2013 - 14:59.


#618 AustinF1

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 15:58

Yeah, a lot of people criticising the safety features that essentially worked, within a reasonable remit of hope and expectation.

This thinking is just bizarre. 

 

- If a whole section of fencing hurtles into the crowd at high speed, the safety feature did not work.

- The fence is there to prevent large objects from flying into the crowd. When it becomes a large object flying into the crowd, the safety feature did not work.

- If a 30 foot gaping hole is ripped in the fence and the car only bounces back into the track area by pure chance, the safety feature did not work.

- If no wheels or other large parts of the car left the track through the gaping hole in the fence, again purely by chance, the safety feature did not work.

 

It was pure luck. That fence was little more than window dressing.


Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2013 - 16:19.


#619 AustinF1

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:14

Thankfully that fence is mostly empty space, it would have been even scarier if it were concrete or a car part. Does anyone know if the flying tyre hit anyone? I get Monza 2000 vibes when I see them fly like that. The sound in the video from the grandstand is quite remarkable

Yeah, it could have been worse. But there were 2 or 3 of the heavy steel poles attached. In the TV broadcast you can also see one larger chunk of a car that flew through. Luckily didn't seem to hit anyone. That was a very crowded area.



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#620 jondoe955

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:42

The only common ground with Krosnoff is that it happened on a street course. Stop being needlessly dramatic.

They were both launched into the catch fence. JK found an opening, DF  MADE an opening. Different crashes, yet similar. One had a better ending.

I thought we came here for needless drama???



#621 AustinF1

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:00

They were both launched into the catch fence. JK found an opening, DF  MADE an opening. Different crashes, yet similar. One had a better ending.

I thought we came here for needless drama???

I think cabling and better fan placement would have made all the difference in Houston. Was it present in the Krosnoff crash?



#622 Rinehart

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:02

This thinking is just bizarre. 

 

- If a whole section of fencing hurtles into the crowd at high speed, the safety feature did not work.

- The fence is there to prevent large objects from flying into the crowd. When it becomes a large object flying into the crowd, the safety feature did not work.

- If a 30 foot gaping hole is ripped in the fence and the car only bounces back into the track area by pure chance, the safety feature did not work.

- If no wheels or other large parts of the car left the track through the gaping hole in the fence, again purely by chance, the safety feature did not work.

 

It was pure luck. That fence was little more than window dressing.

Well its easy to sensationalise and criticise anything, but the fence kept the car out of the stands. Its not perfect and I am not for a minute saying they cannot be improved.

 

I wouldn't say your thinking is bizarre, your just not thinking rationally. 



#623 jondoe955

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:02

This thinking is just bizarre. 

 

- If a whole section of fencing hurtles into the crowd at high speed, the safety feature did not work.

- The fence is there to prevent large objects from flying into the crowd. When it becomes a large object flying into the crowd, the safety feature did not work.

- If a 30 foot gaping hole is ripped in the fence and the car only bounces back into the track area by pure chance, the safety feature did not work.

- If no wheels or other large parts of the car left the track through the gaping hole in the fence, again purely by chance, the safety feature did not work.

 

It was pure luck. That fence was little more than window dressing.

I think it did work - as well as you could expect. NO fence is 100% foolproof. Cars will find their way over a solid wall. I guess more car stayed inside the fence, and each post deflected the car back in. But that fence! It looked like it was almost 1/4" steel. How could that not injure spectators? I'm guessing it didn't hit the stands? That's a heavy piece. And with momentum? And that wayward wheel, which ripped off the tether. Another safety failure? Those tethers will only hold so much force. Then, it was punted over the fence, into the bridge, by Viso. 
I don't disagree with your thoughts. There was a lot of luck and circumstance that prevented a tragedy. They do need better barriers. Especially at these street tracks. But window dressing? That would be a row of hay bales!   ;)



#624 AustinF1

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:16

Well its easy to sensationalise and criticise anything, but the fence kept the car out of the stands. Its not perfect and I am not for a minute saying they cannot be improved.

 

I wouldn't say your thinking is bizarre, your just not thinking rationally. 

How am I sensationalizing anything or being irrational? Specifics please. Pointing out glaring weaknesses is not sensationalism.

 

This was another near miss like Daytona. As you say, the fence needs improvement, but what we've seen over the years is an attitude that if the car stayed on the track then the fence did fine, and no improvements are made. It's time to pay attention to the wakeup calls before we do have another horrible incident like 1955.



#625 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:19

In hindsight the fan placement is odd. Even though it's easy flat(though not for Sato?) it's still a very fast turn, and when things go wrong cars/debris will leave on a tangent. So fans were in the impact zone and kind of close to the track. 

 

I don't know enough about fencing in general, or the specifics of Houston or that area of the track, to know whether it could have done better. 

 

Indycar is kind of unique as a crash prospect. There aren't many cars that go that fast, and are that light. Formula 1 has 'improved safety' by basically making it impossible to hit anything.



#626 AustinF1

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:22

I think it did work - as well as you could expect. NO fence is 100% foolproof. Cars will find their way over a solid wall. I guess more car stayed inside the fence, and each post deflected the car back in. But that fence! It looked like it was almost 1/4" steel. How could that not injure spectators? I'm guessing it didn't hit the stands? That's a heavy piece. And with momentum? And that wayward wheel, which ripped off the tether. Another safety failure? Those tethers will only hold so much force. Then, it was punted over the fence, into the bridge, by Viso. 
I don't disagree with your thoughts. There was a lot of luck and circumstance that prevented a tragedy. They do need better barriers. Especially at these street tracks. But window dressing? That would be a row of hay bales!   ;)

I think that fence worked as well as it could in that incomplete state (no cabling). My beef is that it was incomplete. Cabling would have made a world of difference and is definitely a reasonable expectation by the fans. It's basic race fencing. 

 

The fence did land atop spectators in the stands. You can see it in the second video. Then they pass it down over their heads and off of the front of the grandstand. 

 

The tethers do pretty well usually and fail occasionally. They're another example of a reasonable safety device to protect the fans and other drivers. 

 

No fence, unless it completely envelopes the track, can ever eliminate the possibility of items vaulting over it. It's the massive holes we've seen in fences recently that are worrying. 


Edited by AustinF1, 08 October 2013 - 18:00.


#627 AustinF1

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:30

In hindsight the fan placement is odd. Even though it's easy flat(though not for Sato?) it's still a very fast turn, and when things go wrong cars/debris will leave on a tangent. So fans were in the impact zone and kind of close to the track. 

 

I don't know enough about fencing in general, or the specifics of Houston or that area of the track, to know whether it could have done better. 

 

Indycar is kind of unique as a crash prospect. There aren't many cars that go that fast, and are that light. Formula 1 has 'improved safety' by basically making it impossible to hit anything.

Sato wasn't the only one having that problem there. During both the WC and Indy races, cars were hitting a bump on the inside that made the cars step out over and over.  The difference here was that DF was rapidly approaching on the outside.

 

I agree that F1 & the FIA have maybe gone a bit over the top in terms of safety, but it's worked. Look at COTA and look at this race in Houston where there is a GS on the outside of the only sweeper on the circuit, a very fast turn...about 8 or 10 feet from the crash fencing. These are opposite extremes. Something in the middle would probably work just fine. F1 has also improved car safety with the extreme monocoque crash safety measures that have carried over into stronger cars in other series and maybe helped DF quite a bit here.



#628 jondoe955

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:40

I was under the impression they were already back together.

 

Not that I care about anything like that of course...

I do, for some reason. I like them both, and thought they were a good couple. And 11 years is a pretty good run, for famous, wealthy people. They aren't divorced, and may have had an unusual marriage. She has a farm in Nashville, he has an estate in Scotland. The shuttling must have been tiring. Not sure how much time they got to spend together. I wondered if Ashley would head to Tx, and was glad when I read that she was. I don't know much about either one of them, really, but they seem like that kind of people. Girlie me...



#629 B Squared

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:42

Even though it's easy flat(though not for Sato?) it's still a very fast turn,...

 

I saw an article earlier (sorry that I can't locate the link) Sato thinks that his car's rear end was damaged when he brushed the wall just prior to the crash. The suspected component failure occurred when Dario was beginning his overtaking move.


Edited by B Squared, 08 October 2013 - 19:43.


#630 AustinF1

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 22:12

I saw an article earlier (sorry that I can't locate the link) Sato thinks that his car's rear end was damaged when he brushed the wall just prior to the crash. The suspected component failure occurred when Dario was beginning his overtaking move.

Yeah I heard this too from another fan. Sorry, don't have a link.



#631 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 23:08

Yeah he apparently bumped the wall in Turn 8 and kept going. But the long sweeper was the first proper right hander he got to and it stepped out. Which is still a very Sato-esque incident.



#632 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 23:50

I say Dario should return and keep racing, solely on the basis he has flipped and flown so many times the odds are actually with him for it not to happen again.

:drunk:



#633 Andrew Hope

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 00:28

"The hornets have stung me the last 7 times I walked past their nest, but this time will be different".



#634 Prost1997T

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:12

"The hornets have stung me the last 7 times I walked past their nest, but this time will be different".

 

That's funny, because almost as soon as he went to Nascar he was injured in a crash at Talladega. Which led to the DNQ at Sonoma and his return to Indycar :p



#635 B Squared

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:40

Sorry, don't have a link.

 

Racer has Sato's view:

 

http://www.racer.com...article/315287/



#636 Rinehart

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:41

How am I sensationalizing anything or being irrational? Specifics please. Pointing out glaring weaknesses is not sensationalism.

 

This was another near miss like Daytona. As you say, the fence needs improvement, but what we've seen over the years is an attitude that if the car stayed on the track then the fence did fine, and no improvements are made. It's time to pay attention to the wakeup calls before we do have another horrible incident like 1955.

 

You said the car only bounced back onto the track by chance. That's crap. Specific enough for you?



#637 AustinF1

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:15

You said the car only bounced back onto the track by chance. That's crap. Specific enough for you?

You can disagree with that assertion. That doesn't make it sensationalist or irrational. If the car strikes that last pole a foot or so more aft, it likely leaves the track area. The hole was huge, and at one point the car was almost halfway outside of it. Further, the track was still hot with cars coming fast around the blind right-hander approaching a multi-car collision, with two full sections of fencing missing on the outside between the cars and a grandstand full of people.

 

The fence failed. It failed because it wasn't complete. It should designed & constructed to stay intact so it continues to do its job and doesn't become part of the problem by going into the crowd. Thankfully the failure wasn't the disaster it easily could have been, but that doesn't change the fact that it failed miserably. 

 

This kind of crash is not atypical in IndyCar or even in NASCAR. It happens fairly frequently, and now we see it can still happen with the new cars, too. It seems NASCAR & IndyCar just don't want to take the issue seriously. I see this incident and the one in Daytona as important wakeup calls, but apparently they're just gonna hit the snooze button repeatedly. Seems it's going to take a fan death to wake them up.


Edited by AustinF1, 09 October 2013 - 15:58.


#638 AustinF1

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:19

I posted a gallery of my Houston GP pics ... https://www.facebook...87614878&type=1
 
Preview:
 
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#639 Jim Thurman

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:23

 

However, let's step back for a moment. This year we've seen the deaths of drivers (including Jason Leffler) in sprint car crashes, rallying, and also at Le Mans (Simonsen). As far as I know those particular sports still attract a crowd and operate. As a spectator, I'd more likely to get hurt in my car driving to the event. Speaking of sprint cars - now that's a dangerous sport. Possibly more so than bikes given the amount of horsepower involved.

 

Sprint Cars more dangerous...Based on what? Leffler? Stewart's misadventures?



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#640 Prost1997T

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 16:26

Sprint Cars more dangerous...Based on what? Leffler? Stewart's misadventures?

 

Leffler and others dying (not just drivers, but people in the pit lane hit by flying sprints). In part this is because of less cockpit protection, in addition to their insane power-to-weight ratio. They hold an average speed faster than Nascar stock cars around Bristol.



#641 gm914

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 16:27

"The hornets have stung me the last 7 times I walked past their nest, but this time will be different".

 

 

Ashley-Judd1.jpgashley-judd-bloated-puffy-face-after.png

No one is safe from those damn hornets. :well:  



#642 Andrew Hope

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 17:58

Ashley-Judd1.jpgashley-judd-bloated-puffy-face-after.png

No one is safe from those damn hornets. :well:  

 

I had to look for a while before I realized the bottom picture was really her. A long while. Like, she's-a-mother-now while.


Edited by Andrew Hope, 09 October 2013 - 18:01.


#643 B Squared

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 18:22

Franchitti's car will be at Fontana, driver is not yet named. Allmendinger confirmed for third Penske entry:

 

http://www.indystar....r-gets-ride-too



#644 Andrew Hope

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 19:00

So who is going to drive for Franchitti?

 

KATHERINE LEGGE

 

DUN DUN, DUN-DUN-DUN!

 

KATHERINE LEGGE

 

DUN DUN, DUN-DUN-DUN!



#645 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 19:19

Hmm. I was tipping Jon Herb.



#646 Jim Thurman

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 19:29

Leffler and others dying (not just drivers, but people in the pit lane hit by flying sprints). In part this is because of less cockpit protection, in addition to their insane power-to-weight ratio. They hold an average speed faster than Nascar stock cars around Bristol.

 

Yes, I'm quite aware of their speed at some places and power-to-weight ratio having attended many a sprint car race in person :wave:

 

By any chance are you using this? http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/motorsports/2013/08/06/sprint-car-crashes-accidents-deaths-2013/2623829/

 

It only has the attention of an ignorant media because it was Tony Stewart.  Without his incidents, they likely wouldn't have even noticed (yeah, that's even with Leffler).  Hopefully, you haven't fallen for it.

 

If you are going by that twaddle, there are some terrible errors. Like the double fatality in Nevada, which was (despite their including it) not sprint cars.  Plus, the "pit lane" is inaccurate for the Marysville incident as it wasn't a pit lane. Many short tracks have pit areas outside the tracks. The car left the track and crashed into that area. Since the steering wheel came off in the drivers hand, it could have just as easily been a stock car, but it just happened to be a sprint car.  That's not down to sprint car racing being more dangerous, that's just a freak mishap.

 

I don't think many here are aware how much racing takes place.  Short track racing can average 10-20 fatalities a year.  Shocking, horrible, must be stopped...umm, that's of about 1200 tracks racing from 12-30 weeks a year :eek:   Do the math!  I don't think many have any concept as to the overwhelming amount of racing that takes place to reach that "toll"  The same applies to all the Euros here who adamantly think oval racing is much more dangerous simply by citing deaths without context or knowledge.  They literally have no clue as to the sheer volume of racing that takes place (and there used to be even more!).

 

Yes, there have been three driver fatalities in sprint car racing this year (Leffler, Burton, Williamson).  Without checking, I'd take a guess that's a bit worse total than normal in recent years, but not by much. Three fatalities in literally hundreds of races...yep.

 

Which isn't to say more safety measues couldn't or shouldn't be added, but that was true years ago. If they'd have had a driveline hoop or protection in place, Stewart's leg wouldn't have been broken and roll bar padding should be mandatory. I have no idea why both of those weren't done years ago.  I remember being stunned by that in the 80s.

 

Now, in the 50s and 60s, even 70s, sprint cars were much more dangerous than many forms of racing.


Edited by Jim Thurman, 09 October 2013 - 19:30.


#647 Andrew Hope

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 20:20

Short track racing scares the shit out of me but not because of the cars. I've just seen enough videos of one tiny fire burning half a track down because the fire station is a couple fat guys with extinguishers to know that's not a form of racing to be entered into lightly*.

 

*And also because I think short track racing is mostly boring.

 

By the way, relevant awesome thread: Buford's story of his Sprint Car Flip & Fireball.



#648 Jim Thurman

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 20:49

Short track racing scares the shit out of me but not because of the cars. I've just seen enough videos of one tiny fire burning half a track down because the fire station is a couple fat guys with extinguishers to know that's not a form of racing to be entered into lightly*.

 

*And also because I think short track racing is mostly boring.

 

By the way, relevant awesome thread: Buford's story of his Sprint Car Flip & Fireball.

 

YouTube isn't the place to go for an accurate overview :D  Sadly, there are short tracks like that yet today, but I've also been to plenty that were far ahead of NASCAR, by far, I mean years ahead.  I recall seeing the "rescue team" at one NASCAR sanctioned track where the "rescue" attempt consisted of yelling across the pit wall at an unconscious driver to see if he was ok. When was this? 1960s? Try Atlanta 1990 (in another incident, this same Atlanta crew told Dr. Jerry Punch: "forget it, he's dead.", Punch found a pulse and revived the driver)...or, Talladega, where the crack rescue team would stop at whichever car was closest, no matter the severity of any other car involved ("I ain't drivin' all the way out there").

 

So, careful painting with that broad brush.  Some safety crews at short tracks are better trained than anything short of CART's outstanding team of the 80s-00s.

 

Boring? You've been to wrong places in the wrong time (erm, you're not just going by Martinsville or Bristol NASCAR "short track racing" are you?) Nowadays, sadly, often...yes. Lack of depth except for major and touring events.  But in the 70s and 80s with 40-60+ car fields at weekly tracks, it was awesome*

 

*and often still is on dirt. Pavement, not as much.


Edited by Jim Thurman, 09 October 2013 - 21:37.


#649 jonpollak

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 16:49

My wife and I went to see Enough Said at the Bow Tie cinema on Sunday morning.

It's right down the street from the point of my first son's conception…The Chelsea Hotel.

What those tasteless developers have done to that place recently fills me with revulsion.
However, We really liked the movie .

The last time she joined me in NYC for Steely's bi-annual stint at the Beacon Theatre...

My Mother died shortly after she boarded her Virgin flight out of JFK.

After we had a quiet lunch and I attended a social engagement across town,

Elaine returned to our midtown hotel room from a shopping trip at Barneys instructing me to

"TURN ON THE TELEVISION."

 

I saw the 5 minute package that lead the network news broadcast.

 

I haven't missed an IndyCar race since I was mid--air between LA and Brisbane on the 16th of October 2011…and we all know what happened on that day. I am glad I didn't see this race live as I would have no doubt been horror struck for a good while.

After I had calmed down Elaine opened her suitcase, announced that Monday morning loomed and called the front desk to secure a town car for her delivery curbside @JFK, 2.5 hrs from departure.

I was reduced to hunkering down in the hotel lobby sending emails, txt's and making calls to people who had no better info than I did.
 


 

Please have a word, JP  ;)

 

Fast Forward to Wednesday..
I have indeed had a word, but it had more to do with a certain IDIOT who ALWAYS seems to be at the center of stupid incidents....No names, No packhorses.
 

Jp



#650 Risil

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 19:48

By the way, relevant awesome thread: Buford's story of his Sprint Car Flip & Fireball.

 

We need him