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Best and worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid poll.


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Poll: Best and worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid. (506 member(s) have cast votes)

Who´s the best wheel to wheel racer on the grid?

  1. Vettel (24 votes [4.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.74%

  2. Webber (12 votes [2.37%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.37%

  3. Alonso (95 votes [18.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.77%

  4. Massa (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  5. Button (28 votes [5.53%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.53%

  6. Perez (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  7. Räikkönen (214 votes [42.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.29%

  8. Grosjean (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  9. Rosberg (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  10. Hamilton (117 votes [23.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.12%

  11. Hulkenberg (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  12. Gutierrez (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  13. Di Resta (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  14. Sutil (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  15. Maldonado (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  16. Bottas (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  17. Vergne (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  18. Ricciardo (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  19. Other (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

Who´s the worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid?

  1. Vettel (22 votes [4.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.35%

  2. Webber (9 votes [1.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.78%

  3. Alonso (4 votes [0.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.79%

  4. Massa (24 votes [4.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.74%

  5. Button (5 votes [0.99%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.99%

  6. Perez (155 votes [30.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.63%

  7. Räikkönen (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  8. Grosjean (102 votes [20.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.16%

  9. Rosberg (7 votes [1.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.38%

  10. Hamilton (16 votes [3.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.16%

  11. Hulkenberg (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  12. Gutierrez (14 votes [2.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.77%

  13. Di Resta (5 votes [0.99%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.99%

  14. Sutil (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  15. Maldonado (125 votes [24.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.70%

  16. Bottas (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  17. Vergne (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  18. Ricciardo (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. Other (10 votes [1.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.98%

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#1 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 16:23

After discussing this topic elsewhere, I was wondering what people thought about this here. It´s always been interesting for me the quality of the wheel to wheel racing of the different drivers: their spacial awareness level, their bravery, their smartness, their skill to race closely... but also the bad habits: multiple or clumsy defensive moves, chops, mistakes, lack of awareness.

 

It´s easy to see patterns over time on these guys racing, so please vote who think who´s best and worst racer of the grid, and explain why you think so.

 

I´ll go ahead. My vote for best racer is for Räikkönen: his spacial awareness is unmatched, he´s brave, he´s extremelly skilled handling his car in close proximity with others, he´s safe, he makes good and fast decissions, and he´s very smart when he has to clear other cars and it isn´t possible in obvious places.

 

My vote for worst racer is for Grosjean. He´s clumsy, inconsistent, and lacks a lot of awareness (doesn´t seem to know where rivals are or how wide his car/the track is). Perez (same story), Maldonado (same story) and Webber (much more aware and skilled, but too many dirty defensive moves over the years) are close candidates for me.

 

Your turn.



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#2 Radion

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 16:48

Best: Definitely raikkonen. For the same reaseans you mentioned. Just a few examples:

 

 

Worst: I chonse maldonado over grosjean. Romain seemed to have matured more compared to maldonado. Just my opinion.


Edited by Radion, 16 September 2013 - 16:49.


#3 Andrew Hope

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 16:52

Best is probably Raikkonen. There's too many examples of him being good at it to pretend he isn't.

 

Worst is Perez. Grosjean is getting better and Maldonado is as well. Perez seems to do something stupid every race.



#4 vista

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 16:55

Definitely Alonso. His great starts and fantastic first laps for the last couple of years proves it. Him and Webber against each other are some of the best and most intense battles.



#5 Gorma

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 16:56

Best is probably Raikkonen. There's too many examples of him being good at it to pretend he isn't.

 

Worst is Perez. Grosjean is getting better and Maldonado is as well. Perez seems to do something stupid every race.

I second. The worst thing about Perez is that even though he does something stupid he does not accept the blame. 



#6 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:03

Kimi.. ?  someone should pull out some stats on who has gotten the best of who in the last few years between Kimi/Lewis/Alonso in wheel to wheel battles.

Worse.. I chose Rosberg because that guy cannot overtake a Williams or a Sauber even if his life depended on it.
 



#7 Gorma

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:04

How did someone vote for Hamilton? I think in one season he collided more times with Massa alone than Kimi or Alonso during their careers :D How could someone vote Vettel as the worst? He hasn't shown the ability of Kimi and Alonso yet, but he is by no means the worst. 



#8 Gorma

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:05

Kimi.. ?  someone should pull out some stats on who has gotten the best of who in the last few years between Kimi/Lewis/Alonso in wheel to wheel battles.

Worse.. I chose Rosberg because that guy cannot overtake a Williams or a Sauber even if his life depended on it.
 

Best wheel to wheel racer isn't the same as who has most over takes.



#9 Timantti

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:08

Best wheel to wheel racer? Must be Räikkönen. Though I don't think he's the best overtaker. Imo the entire concept should be how fast you can pass someone, not how beautiful the move is. And that's where Kimi fells a bit short. It's almost like he's a bit too fair and sometimes not being enough of an opportunist. I think Alonso is ruthlessly effective minimizing the time behind a slower car and ironically enough, Vettel has also shown this ability despite the stigma of a "crash kid".



#10 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:13

Best wheel to wheel racer isn't the same as who has most over takes.

he is not aggressive enough to be considered the best wheel to wheel racer. You can say that he knows how to pick his battles but in most cases not going for a pass on the opening laps sees him relegated to the middle of the pack at the beginning of the race having to recover on pace.- he gets overtaken quite often by Force India, STR, or Mclaren - . as opposed to being at the front with a clear chance for a win.

This is my view of course.. and the style of racing that I like, I understand some people like the more conservative approach.


Edited by discover23, 16 September 2013 - 17:19.


#11 Dozer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:18

Best Lewis, Worst Grosjean - end thread :p



#12 Dozer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:19

How did someone vote for Hamilton?

 

Because our T.V's work?



#13 Radion

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:20

he is not aggressive enough to be considered the best wheel to wheel racer. You can say that he knows how to pick his battles but in most cases not going for a pass on the opening laps sees him relegated to the middle of the pack at the beginning of the race having to recover on pace.- he gets overtakes quite often by Force India, STR, or Mclaren - . as opposed to being at the front with a clear chance for a win.

This is my view of course.. and the style of racing that I like, I understand some people like the more conservative approach.

Since when you have to be aggressive to be good at wheel to wheel racing?

The most important thing is spatial awareness, not aggressivity. Again, wheel to wheel isn't overtaking. It's the ability to position your car on the road so that your component still has enough room to breath to go through corners side by side.

 

In terms of overtaking instincts [in the opening laps], I see the likes of alonso and hamilton ahead of raikkonen, but again, that's not the point of this thread.


Edited by Radion, 16 September 2013 - 17:23.


#14 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:22

he is not aggressive enough...

 

Quite the opposite. The car he´s been in last couple of years has forced him sometimes to clear cars much faster on a straight line with some high risk moves. He´s been forced pulling crazy moves in all sorts of rare places. And if you go further back trhough his career it only gets better.

 

You´re confusing safety with lack of agression.



#15 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:22



Since when you have to be aggressive to be good at wheel to wheel racing?

The most important thing is spatial awareness not aggressivity. Again, wheel to wheel isn't overtaking. It's the ability to position your car on the road so that your component still has enough room to breath to go through corners side by side.

ok, and when was the last time you saw Alonso fail at this..On the contrary, he does it at every race on the first two laps..



#16 AM14

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:23

I would say that Raikkonen is probably the best wheel to wheel racer on the grid at the moment. He's made some great passing moves since he returned last year. Although guys like Perez and Grosjean seem to come into contact a lot, they are both capable of making good passing moves at times (such as Grosjean on Massa in Hungary), so I would say that Max Chilton is arguably the worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid. He hasn't been involved in many collisions, but at the same time, he struggled to overtake anyone last year in GP2, and I remember a couple of occassions earlier this year where he spent a lot of time trying to pass Caterhams.



#17 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:23

Quite the opposite. The car he´s been in last couple of years has forced him sometimes to clear cars much faster on a straight line with some high risk moves. He´s been forced pulling crazy moves in all sorts of rare places. And if you go further back trhough his career it only gets better.

 

You´re confusing safety with lack of agression.

Those cars are not comparable.. When he does that to Vettel or Alonso or Lewis on a consistent basis then we can talk..

And it is not the car.. there was a race this year where Grosjean was able to pass fast cars, but Kimi couldn't.


Edited by discover23, 16 September 2013 - 17:25.


#18 Radion

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:27

ok, and when was the last time you saw Alonso fail at this..On the contrary, he does it at every race on the first two laps..

Suzuka last year.

 

Seriously, why are you bringing alonso in this argument? I never stated that he fails at this, did I?! I just think raikkonen is the better wheel to wheel racer...



#19 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:28

Suzuka last year.

 

Seriously, why are you bringing alonso in this argument? I never stated that he fails at this, did I?! I just think raikkonen is the better wheel to wheel racer...

ok, maybe we have a different point of view on what best wheel to wheel racer is.



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#20 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:28

Those cars are not comparable.. When he does that to Vettel or Alonso or Lewis on a consistent basis then we can talk..

 

If he does these drive arounds in a consistent basis to drivers in better/equal cars it´s time for the others to look for another job.

 

You´re pushing so much to prove he´s not best at that department that you´re making it look you think yourself he is indeed.



#21 Lights

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:29

Voted for the McLaren duo. Raikkonen is as good as Button though. Love the closeness of this battle:

 

 

Also a classic:

 



#22 undersquare

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:30

I don't know why everyone's saying Kimi all of a sudden. Historically he's always been a bit contact-averse and inclined to get pushed around, now these days he's a touch prone to accidental contact.  Sebi and Lewis are the masters wheel-to-wheel atm, followed by Nando.  I voted Lewis, he can be hard as nails but knows when to give way.  I voted Gutierrez as the worst, though we don't see a lot of him.



#23 Dozer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:32

Those cars are not comparable.. When he does that to Vettel or Alonso or Lewis on a consistent basis then we can talk..

And it is not the car.. there was a race this year where Grosjean was able to pass fast cars, but Kimi couldn't.

 

Indeed and we only have to rewatch Monza to see Kimi get owned by Lewis, yet again, no surprise he'll win this poll as he's the most popular driver but if we look on track he isn't the best imo...

 

Martin Bundle commented during Monza that the Lotus was probably the 2nd best car to have (RBR aside) and yet Kimi got passed by Lewis and watched helplessly as he passed the cars in front too.



#24 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:32

If he does these drive arounds in a consistent basis to drivers in better/equal cars it´s time for the others to look for another job.

 

You´re pushing so much to prove he´s not best at that department that you´re making it look you think yourself he is indeed.

I have no idea what you just try to say. but in the years that I have seen kimi race, he is always been to me someone whose main strength is his pace and who needs open and clean air in order to get good results.


Edited by discover23, 16 September 2013 - 17:33.


#25 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:34

Button is indeed another excellent racer. His awareness and fairness are top stuff.

 

He´s also got the "too gentle tag" on him, and again it´s an unfair one. He´s pulled moves from awful long way back on the brakes too when he felt it was possible. Bahrain 2006 springs to mind.



#26 Lights

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:37

Button is indeed another excellent racer. His awareness and fairness are top stuff.

 

He´s also got the "too gentle tag" on him, and again it´s an unfair one. He´s pulled moves from awful long way back on the brakes too when he felt it was possible. Bahrain 2006 springs to mind.

 

Oh yes. And I would have shared those in my post as well if it wasn't for them not being on YouTube.



#27 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:38


Martin Bundle commented during Monza that the Lotus was probably the 2nd best car to have (RBR aside) and yet Kimi got passed by Lewis and watched helplessly as he passed the cars in front too.

exactly..



#28 Afterburner

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:47

Alonso, Raikkonen, and Vettel are probably the best candidates among the top drivers, with Hamilton just below them. Vettel has made the fewest errors in terms of at-fault contact since 2010, though incidents in races like Malaysia, Abu Dhabi, and Brazil 2012 still stick out. Even though Kimi and Fernando have made more 'mistakes' when wheel-to-wheel, so to speak, they've also given far more examples of their skill at on-track combat. I'd put Suzuka 2012 and Malaysia 2013 both on Alonso, and the Monaco debacle on Kimi. Hamilton's collisions in 2010 and his abysmal 2011 season are still too fresh in my mind to put him alongside Alonso, Raikkonen, and Vettel, but not so much so that I'd place him more than marginally below them.

 

Almost too close to call between these four, overall, but then again, that's why they're the top guys.



#29 Radion

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:50

Indeed and we only have to rewatch Monza to see Kimi get owned by Lewis, yet again, no surprise he'll win this poll as he's the most popular driver but if we look on track he isn't the best imo...

 

Martin Bundle commented during Monza that the Lotus was probably the 2nd best car to have (RBR aside) and yet Kimi got passed by Lewis and watched helplessly as he passed the cars in front too.

What does this have to do with the topic :confused:

 

Btw: I don't think raikkonen'll 'win' this poll because he's the most popular driver, but because people remember his great wtw action. Maybe you could provide some examples of great lewis wheel to wheel action. Then people may vote for lewis?


Edited by Radion, 16 September 2013 - 17:55.


#30 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:53

 

exactly..

 

 

 

Martin Bundle commented during Monza that the Lotus was probably the 2nd best car to have (RBR aside) and yet Kimi got passed by Lewis and watched helplessly as he passed the cars in front too.

 

Oh yes, it was an heroic move, driving by a KERS-less guy exiting a slow corner, and then arrive so much in front to the next corner that there´s not even fight. Best move ever. :rolleyes:

 



#31 limit

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:53

Hamilton was the fastest guy on the track, just look the fastest laps.



#32 discover23

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 17:57

driving by a KERS-less guy exiting a slow corner,

oh yes. there is always an excuse..This isn't the first time Lewis has overtaken Kimi..How about their famous Spa 08 battle, no KERS or DRS and only a damp track.. . remember who wont that one.?

who won the race and who crashed out?


Edited by discover23, 16 September 2013 - 18:00.


#33 Baddoer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:04

Hamilton and Alonso are best when it comes to wheel to wheel combat. 

Rosberg is probably worst overtaker I had ever seen with Button close second.



#34 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:08

If all we're talking about is 'cleanliness', then Kimi, Alonso, Button, Lewis all kind of in the same boat for me.  But while that's a good thing, being clean can also being a symptom of being cautious, which isn't always a good thing.

 

In that respect, I put Lewis above them all, as he's able to pull off great overtakes very quickly and aggressively.  Alonso a close 2nd.  Both are also great at defending.  Having this combination is far more important to having a good race than just one or the other. 

 

Vettel, I honestly don't want to say.  He's certainly good.  But the Red Bull is such a unique car, characteristic-wise, often lacking in areas that help with defending/overtaking.  Its just hard to judge, but I'm by no means saying he isn't up there with these other guys. 



#35 F1234

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:13

Alonso, Raikkonen, and Vettel are probably the best candidates among the top drivers, with Hamilton just below them. Vettel has made the fewest errors in terms of at-fault contact since 2010, though incidents in races like Malaysia, Abu Dhabi, and Brazil 2012 still stick out. Even though Kimi and Fernando have made more 'mistakes' when wheel-to-wheel, so to speak, they've also given far more examples of their skill at on-track combat. I'd put Suzuka 2012 and Malaysia 2013 both on Alonso, and the Monaco debacle on Kimi. Hamilton's collisions in 2010 and his abysmal 2011 season are still too fresh in my mind to put him alongside Alonso, Raikkonen, and Vettel, but not so much so that I'd place him more than marginally below them.

 

Almost too close to call between these four, overall, but then again, that's why they're the top guys.

 

 

Simply not true.

 

Vettel crashed into his teammate in Turkey 2010, Button at Belgium 2010 and had numerous contacts in the British GP 2010.

 

In 2012, Vettel received more penalties than Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen combined.

 

Yet Hamilton's two tame collisions in 2010, for which he received zero penalties, should be remembered but Vettel's collision-filled 2010 (for which he received a penalty for the Button incident) shows, alongside his errors in 2012, that he has made "fewest errors for at-fault contact." Ok then!

 

Alonso and Raikkonen (and Button too) are ahead of Vettel and Hamilton in the "fewest errors since 2010 for at-fault contact" criteria. Clearly so. 


Edited by F1234, 16 September 2013 - 18:14.


#36 falalalalaland

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:18

Oh cool. My votes match the majority.  :lol:

 

Based on the past 1.5 yrs, Kimi is practically unmatched in wheel-to-wheel/side-by-side action. Anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn't been watching the races.

 

Worst was a tough choice between Perez and Grosjean, just slightly clumsy, moves are choppy, haphazard and often appear too optimistic.



#37 F1234

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:24

How did someone vote for Hamilton? I think in one season he collided more times with Massa alone than Kimi or Alonso during their careers :D How could someone vote Vettel as the worst? He hasn't shown the ability of Kimi and Alonso yet, but he is by no means the worst. 

 

A few things to consider about Vettel.

 

He had a lot of incidents in his Torro Rosso years, which most seem to have forgotten about. Or overlooked.

 

He has had the fastest and best car on the grid since 2010 (possibly even since mid-2009) in an era of DRS and KERS. Yet he still crashes a lot when he is caught in the chasing pack. Even as recently as Hungary when he damaged his front wing by driving into the back of Button.

 

Take Abu Dhabi 2012. He crashed into the back of a Torro Rosso and also with a DRS marker board. Under the Safety Car! He also overtook another car of the track and remembering his punishment after the German Grand Prix 2012 for the same offence, he wisely gave the place straight back.

 

Now, if a driver with a near four year advantage of having the fastest/best car on the grid in this era, is still error prone when it comes to wheel-to-wheel combat then there is clearly an inherent weakness present.



#38 maverick69

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:33

Looking at the so-called best: Depends on the weight you put on your criteria - and I'm looking at the past couple of years....... Live in the now..........

 

Kimi is pretty risk averse - yet effective.

 

Hamilton is pretty balls out - yet effective.

 

Vettel is always at the front..........

 

Fred is always there or there abouts - yet effective.

 

 

As for the worst. Well....... Maldonado and Growjon. 



#39 bourbon

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:45

A few things to consider about Vettel.

 

He had a lot of incidents in his Torro Rosso years, which most seem to have forgotten about. Or overlooked.

 

He has had the fastest and best car on the grid since 2010 (possibly even since mid-2009) in an era of DRS and KERS. Yet he still crashes a lot when he is caught in the chasing pack. Even as recently as Hungary when he damaged his front wing by driving into the back of Button.

 

Take Abu Dhabi 2012. He crashed into the back of a Torro Rosso and also with a DRS marker board. Under the Safety Car! He also overtook another car of the track and remembering his punishment after the German Grand Prix 2012 for the same offence, he wisely gave the place straight back.

 

 

 

So you are saying that Vettel was going wheel to wheel with the Torro Rosso behind the safety car (which he didn't run into btw) and the DRS marker board at the time?  Or have you lost the plot in your eagerness to support your opinion that he is a candidate for the worst wheel to wheel award?  :down:

 

 

Now, if a driver with a near four year advantage of having the fastest/best car on the grid in this era, is still error prone when it comes to wheel-to-wheel combat then there is clearly an inherent weakness present.

 

 

Only with your argument since you don't seem to know what wheel to wheel is. 


Edited by bourbon, 16 September 2013 - 18:46.


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#40 eronrules

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:45

somehow i feel like people are confusing between 

 

A. Wheel to wheel racing (which is the thread topic)

 

B. Best and clean overtaking (not the thread topic)

 

 

e.g kimi is best when it comes to wheel to wheel racing, i.e side by side racing while either defending or while overtaking. but if we consider the aggressiveness, he's perhaps not the most risk taking driver, he judges whom he can trust and who'll probably make mistakes 

 

similarly, Grosjean's wheel to wheel racing is actually pretty good, but when he makes a move to overtake i.e lunges inside, sometimes he makes mistakes due to his problem with spatial awareness, also sometimes he just misjudges the position of other cars after he has made a move. (button case)



#41 Kobasmashi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:55

I voted Lewis as the best, he is the best on the brakes out of the lot of them, and is just as fair a defender as Alonso and Raikkonen. His 2011 mistakes were just bizarre, before and since 2011 he's been next to faultless in wheel to wheel battles (only 1 of Monza and Singapore 2010 can be blamed on Lewis, since they were the same but with roles reversed, and neither were outrageous lunges)

 

For worst I voted Maldonado, he's rash and erratic, and seems to be the only driver on the grid to deliberately use his car as a battering ram (on multiple occasions throughout his junior and senior career). It's amazing how far money can get you.



#42 Vesuvius

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 18:57

best Kimi

 

worst Perez



#43 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 19:03

oh yes. there is always an excuse.

 

No, there´s not always an excuse. Lewis has outraced Kimi plenty of times, the other way around has happened plenty of times too. But if you want to give relevance to a non-existant fight, obviously someone´s going to explain you why that makes no sense. In other words, if you keep using crap examples, I´ll have to point out they´re crap.

 

Monza 2007 is a much better example of Lewis showing best craft. Monza 2013 is not, he drove by a KERS-less car down the straight.



#44 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 19:07

I voted Lewis as the best, he is the best on the brakes out of the lot of them, and is just as fair a defender as Alonso and Raikkonen.

 

Can´t agree. Lewis is probably the best on the brakes, but he´s a bit of a bastard defending. He weaved in front of Petrov in Malaysia, he weaved in front of Räikkönen just after passing him in Belgium 2008 into Les Combes, when he was punted by Alonso in Malaysia 2011 he waited too much to move across, he pushed Massa off into the triangle chicane in Japan 2011, he pushed Kobayashi off into Les Combes in 2012... he´s a bit messy covering sometimes.

 

But when he does it well, he´s a master. Malaysia 2007 was a masterpiece against Massa.



#45 F1234

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 19:10

@eronrules. It's all part of the same process i.e getting ahead of the car in front. Which employs the same skills, reactions and spatial awareness. You might want to split them (for your own reasons) but the two indisputably go hand-in-hand.

 

@bourbon. And your clear bias - courtesy of your avatar - makes you completely un-eager to defend Vettel, I suppose?



#46 artista

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 19:16

No, there´s not always an excuse. Lewis has outraced Kimi plenty of times, the other way around has happened plenty of times too. But if you want to give relevance to a non-existant fight, obviously someone´s going to explain you why that makes no sense. In other words, if you keep using crap examples, I´ll have to point out they´re crap.

Monza 2007 is a much better example of Lewis showing best craft. Monza 2013 is not, he drove by a KERS-less car down the straight.

Wasn't Räikkönen injured in the neck in Monza 2007 after the very nasty accident he suffered during FP3? I, somehow, remember him telling he could not keep his head straight braking before the chicane, what meant he could not see it and braked earlier than normal?
But, I'm talking from memory, maybe I remember it wrong.

Back on topic: for me, best wheel to wheel racer is the one that doesn't make me feel fear when he's driving in parallel with another driver for a while. Räikkönen for me, Alonso too. And even if he's not in F1 any longer, Nick Heidfeld. Button and di Resta would get a thumbs up from me, too.

Worst wheel to wheel racer? Difficult. Grosjean has, maybe, done the most stupid things of the current grid, but when he doesn't get obsessed with something silly (like Maldonado jumping the start in Spa 2012) he's not that bad. Pérez seems to have misunderstood being told that he needs to be more aggressive and Maldonado, who would have usually have got my vote under normal circumstances, seems to have calmed down quite a bit (secondary effects of fatherhood)

Edited by artista, 16 September 2013 - 19:18.


#47 eronrules

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 19:25

@eronrules. It's all part of the same process i.e getting ahead of the car in front. Which employs the same skills, reactions and spatial awareness. You might want to split them (for your own reasons) but the two indisputably go hand-in-hand.

 

@bourbon. And your clear bias - courtesy of your avatar - makes you completely un-eager to defend Vettel, I suppose?

if it was Pre DRS+Pirelli era statistics, i would've agreed, but these days, wheel to wheel racing normally refers to being side by side in a non DRS zone (i.e sweeping curves like run down to Eau rouge between KR+MS or in texas between NH+KR) or being side by side running towards a DRS zone (which is less frequent IMO). the circuits where DRS works usually have overpowering DRS effect. 



#48 Dozer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 19:33

What does this have to do with the topic :confused:

 

Btw: I don't think raikkonen'll 'win' this poll because he's the most popular driver, but because people remember his great wtw action. Maybe you could provide some examples of great lewis wheel to wheel action. Then people may vote for lewis?

 

Because the topic is about the best wheel to wheel racer and I'm pointing out that just as recently as Monza the driver currently winning the poll was outraced yet again by the no.1 racer on the grid, much like he did to Kimi his 1st year in F1, ironically also at Monza too...



#49 P123

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 19:35

On recent form, the best are Kimi, Button, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and di Resta is pretty fair too.  Worst this season has been Perez, although Grosjean and Maldonado have had their issues, mainly last season.


Edited by P123, 16 September 2013 - 19:36.


#50 F1234

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 19:38

if it was Pre DRS+Pirelli era statistics, i would've agreed, but these days, wheel to wheel racing normally refers to being side by side in a non DRS zone (i.e sweeping curves like run down to Eau rouge between KR+MS or in texas between NH+KR) or being side by side running towards a DRS zone (which is less frequent IMO). the circuits where DRS works usually have overpowering DRS effect. 

 

That's a fair point but I maintain we're ultimately still talking about the same sets of skills here. I know you've cited Grosjean performing better in one of the two criteria in which you separate but two points. 1) If you want to have two separate criteria then I think that overwhelmingly the drivers would be good at both or poor at both 2) Related to that, I always hold my breath in readiness for a collision when Vettel, Maldonado, Grosjean and Perez are involved in a scrap over a place.