Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 3 votes

Best and worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid poll.


  • Please log in to reply
345 replies to this topic

Poll: Best and worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid. (506 member(s) have cast votes)

Who´s the best wheel to wheel racer on the grid?

  1. Vettel (24 votes [4.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.74%

  2. Webber (12 votes [2.37%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.37%

  3. Alonso (95 votes [18.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.77%

  4. Massa (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  5. Button (28 votes [5.53%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.53%

  6. Perez (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  7. Räikkönen (214 votes [42.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.29%

  8. Grosjean (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  9. Rosberg (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  10. Hamilton (117 votes [23.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.12%

  11. Hulkenberg (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  12. Gutierrez (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  13. Di Resta (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  14. Sutil (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  15. Maldonado (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  16. Bottas (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  17. Vergne (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  18. Ricciardo (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  19. Other (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

Who´s the worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid?

  1. Vettel (22 votes [4.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.35%

  2. Webber (9 votes [1.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.78%

  3. Alonso (4 votes [0.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.79%

  4. Massa (24 votes [4.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.74%

  5. Button (5 votes [0.99%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.99%

  6. Perez (155 votes [30.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.63%

  7. Räikkönen (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  8. Grosjean (102 votes [20.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.16%

  9. Rosberg (7 votes [1.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.38%

  10. Hamilton (16 votes [3.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.16%

  11. Hulkenberg (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  12. Gutierrez (14 votes [2.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.77%

  13. Di Resta (5 votes [0.99%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.99%

  14. Sutil (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  15. Maldonado (125 votes [24.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.70%

  16. Bottas (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  17. Vergne (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  18. Ricciardo (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. Other (10 votes [1.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.98%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#101 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,107 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 16 September 2013 - 21:55

Lewis put up quite a bit more of a fight against Fernando than he did against Kimi, as that should be visible to the naked eye.

 

But since you do bring up the fact that it's always faster cars overtaking slower ones, I think that these should be valid:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5K9P9z_Lwa0

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fzFDvZhntvQ

 

All I can see is that the move wasn´t as easy as you want to make it sound "because it was a Mercedes". You still had to outbrake him, and not everyone was able to. Don´t let the smoke fool you, Lewis nailed his braking point and kept his line, he wasn´t diving with desperate late-braking.

 

And of course these are "valid", whatever that means. But if you´re trying to imply a nitpicked video with a driver passing another is the way to judge their wheel to wheel ability, then that´s quite poor. As I told you these guys have a career behind them and we know it well. That´s the way to judge it.

 

If I post here a video of Lewis messing up during a pass attempt and tried to sell he messes everytime he goes wheel to wheel with someone, that´d be quite stupid. That´s what you´re doing "he passed him here and here, so he´ll always do so and he´s better racer".


Edited by Skinnyguy, 16 September 2013 - 21:58.


Advertisement

#102 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 16 September 2013 - 21:56

Best is probably Hamilton, he can come back at people when it seems impossible and is always fair (unless he is getting turned in on) Kimi is similar in that he's always fair too.

 

Worst between Di resta, Maldonado and Massa.



#103 ReAlien

ReAlien
  • Member

  • 165 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 16 September 2013 - 21:56

Heh, I matched the trend with my vote: RAI — PER  :)  



#104 F1234

F1234
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 16 September 2013 - 21:58

Yes, sorry, I am tired and felt like teasing you. '!=' is the same as 'not equal to' in most programming languages. The single quote signs are used to group characters without making an actual quote.

Your points in #81 & (and) #67 I simply ignored and you should be thankful fot that.
 

 

I am absolutely delighted and immensely proud to say that I know nothing about programming languages. Although perhaps it's best you stick to the forum rules and write in English? Just a thought.

 

#67 was yours. Are you now saying that you're ignoring your own points? Or are you saying that upon my replying to your points of #67 in #81, that you're now ignoring them? In which case, why use a forum if you're not even prepared to read the replies to your (unfounded) accusations? Such behaviour is poor forum etiquette, so I'd prefer it you don't make silly comments (#67) in the first place if you're not prepared to consider valid replies, as per #81. Thanks.



#105 Dozer

Dozer
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 16 September 2013 - 22:00

The final few laps of Spa 2008 are enough evidence for me to believe that Hamilton is a better racer than Raikkonen. Lewis made Kimi look like a rookie there.

 

Say no more :up:



#106 F1234

F1234
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 16 September 2013 - 22:13

Some how it always becomes a Vettel slag fest.

 

Not at all.

 

Rather it would seem to be a case of some posters not being able to tolerate valid/constructive criticisms of Vettel.



#107 LaoTze

LaoTze
  • Member

  • 133 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 16 September 2013 - 22:16

Then Hammy made Alonso look like a rookie too, Fuji 2007.. Lewis went on to win and Alonso crashed.. ironic when you think about it, since Lewis was a rookie.

#108 Dozer

Dozer
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 16 September 2013 - 22:17

Not at all.

 

Rather it would seem to be a case of some posters not being able to tolerate valid/constructive criticisms of Vettel.

 

 

Or the fact that the poll doesn't reflect well on people's opinions around his wheel to wheel ability...



#109 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 2,701 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 16 September 2013 - 22:33

On current form, Lewis.

 

Hungary was a showcase of his excellent wheel to wheel ability, there was a pass on Webber in a GP early this year that was sublime as well.in 2013 he has not got caught up with anyone either in wheel to wheel combat.

 

Worst on current form? I go with Romain, always car damage or a penalty with that guy it would seem.



#110 Elissa

Elissa
  • Member

  • 194 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 16 September 2013 - 22:47

Best wheel to wheel - Probably JB, pretty much always keeps out of trouble 
Best overtaker - Lewis
Worst wheel to wheel - Grosjean
Worst overtaker - Maldonado
Worst to overtake - Maldonado/Di Resta
 
Now can we expand this beyond F1 where the Audi's @ Le Mans will overtake over 1400+ times during the 24hrs?!!! 
 
Amazing Le Mans battle amongst traffic!! 
 

 
26 overtakes in 4 laps @ Laguna Seca!!


Edited by Elissa, 16 September 2013 - 23:02.


#111 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,464 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 16 September 2013 - 23:12

The results are quite remarkable. Button getting only five votes as best is heavily skewed to say the least. Like Kimi, who I voted for, he is one of a handful left who do not subscribe to the school of shoving others off the circuit.



#112 JRodrigues

JRodrigues
  • Member

  • 304 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 16 September 2013 - 23:27

Just to annoy some dudes.. voted Kimi for the best and Hamilton for worst (too bad I couldn't vote for Alonso as well)  :stoned:  :drunk:



#113 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • Member

  • 3,163 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 16 September 2013 - 23:44

Simply not true.

 

Vettel crashed into his teammate in Turkey 2010, Button at Belgium 2010 and had numerous contacts in the British GP 2010.

 

In 2012, Vettel received more penalties than Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen combined.

 

Yet Hamilton's two tame collisions in 2010, for which he received zero penalties, should be remembered but Vettel's collision-filled 2010 (for which he received a penalty for the Button incident) shows, alongside his errors in 2012, that he has made "fewest errors for at-fault contact." Ok then!

 

Alonso and Raikkonen (and Button too) are ahead of Vettel and Hamilton in the "fewest errors since 2010 for at-fault contact" criteria. Clearly so. 

 

Since Belgium 2010, Vettel hasn't actually crashed into anyone, he's been crashed into--the fact that he's been issued no penalties for contact since Belgium 2010 (including the contacts during the race in Abu Dhabi in 2012) supports the idea that, at least in the opinions of the stewards, he hasn't had any contact for which he's been at fault since 2010. I think many here would agree that he's a much improved driver since then, and while Vettel resolved his issues from 2010 on, Hamilton's only grew worse in 2011, hence my reasoning--there is a trend continuing on from 2010 in which Vettel got better at wheel-to-wheel action while Hamilton did the exact opposite until around 2012. You can put this down to 'having the best car' if you like, but that's quite short-sighted and doesn't explain races like Spa 2012 or Bahrain 2013. As for 2008--you can pick on him for that if you want, but just remember that he has improved considerably since then and that what Alonso and Hamilton were doing wheel-to-wheel around that stage in their respective careers was equally unimpressive. (Hint: Monaco. Tunnel. Middle finger.)

 

But that's okay, mate, this isn't a topic about Vettel and I know why you're here anyway; it certainly isn't to cheer on your favourites so I'll let you stand on your soapbox now. Apparently for me to even suggest that Vettel is in the same league as Hamilton, Alonso, and Raikkonen in terms of wheel-to-wheel prowess was unacceptable enough to cause you to waste most of your day discussing it here. :wave:

 

EDIT:

 

26 overtakes in 4 laps @ Laguna Seca!!

 

God, that engine... I love that car so much. :love:


Edited by Afterburner, 16 September 2013 - 23:47.


#114 Tonka

Tonka
  • Member

  • 834 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 16 September 2013 - 23:48

Definitely Alonso. His great starts and fantastic first laps for the last couple of years proves it. Him and Webber against each other are some of the best and most intense battles.

 

You missed Alonzo knocking part of Webber's front wing off in the last race?  Alonzo is forever tapping other cars in overtaking situations, he appears to depend upon the other cars giving way, because he's in a red car.



#115 Tonka

Tonka
  • Member

  • 834 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 16 September 2013 - 23:53

The results are quite remarkable. Button getting only five votes as best is heavily skewed to say the least. Like Kimi, who I voted for, he is one of a handful left who do not subscribe to the school of shoving others off the circuit.

 

How is the result skewed, if like you, many people believe Kimi to be the best, they're not going to vote for Button or any other driver for that matter.

 

Would you prefer the polls to be PR based?  That would give the site admin kittens and create about 10,000 silly posts.



#116 Avastrol

Avastrol
  • Member

  • 360 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 17 September 2013 - 00:34

...Hamilton's only grew worse in 2011, hence my reasoning--there is a trend continuing on from 2010 in which Vettel got better at wheel-to-wheel action while Hamilton did the exact opposite until around 2012.

 

 

I think it's more of a case of Lewis, despite being a spectacular passer in his earlier years, isn't quite the complete article yet, and it was 2011 which served to better him.

 

I thought Lewis, in his early days, was too much of a muscle passer, and had a yield-or-crash attitude with a high reliance on opponents giving way. Such an intimidating style served him well against opponents who would rather finish the race (worked well against Kimi, from what I remember). But the weakness of this approach comes in the form of opponents who won't get intimidated and would rather crash with you - a certain Felipe Massa in 2011. After that gauntlet now he seems to be more balanced in his approach.


Edited by Avastrol, 17 September 2013 - 00:37.


#117 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • Member

  • 3,163 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 17 September 2013 - 00:41

I think it's more of a case of Lewis, despite being a spectacular passer in his earlier years, isn't quite the complete article yet, and it was 2011 which served to better him.

 

I thought Lewis, in his early days, was too much of a muscle passer, and had a yield-or-crash attitude with a high reliance on opponents giving way. Such an intimidating style served him well against opponents who would rather finish the race (worked well against Kimi, from what I remember). But the weakness of this approach comes in the form of opponents who won't get intimidated and would rather crash with you - a certain Felipe Massa in 2011. After that gauntlet now he seems to be more balanced in his approach.

 

Yeah, which was kind of the point I intended to make in the end of that post--drivers' form can change over time, but more often then not, the top guys tend to improve rather than decline. Lewis has been spectacular to watch at Mercedes this year, in my opinion. :)



#118 F1234

F1234
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 00:43

Since Belgium 2010, Vettel hasn't actually crashed into anyone, he's been crashed into--the fact that he's been issued no penalties for contact since Belgium 2010 (including the contacts during the race in Abu Dhabi in 2012) supports the idea that, at least in the opinions of the stewards, he hasn't had any contact for which he's been at fault since 2010. I think many here would agree that he's a much improved driver since then, and while Vettel resolved his issues from 2010 on, Hamilton's only grew worse in 2011, hence my reasoning--there is a trend continuing on from 2010 in which Vettel got better at wheel-to-wheel action while Hamilton did the exact opposite until around 2012. You can put this down to 'having the best car' if you like, but that's quite short-sighted and doesn't explain races like Spa 2012 or Bahrain 2013. As for 2008--you can pick on him for that if you want, but just remember that he has improved considerably since then and that what Alonso and Hamilton were doing wheel-to-wheel around that stage in their respective careers was equally unimpressive. (Hint: Monaco. Tunnel. Middle finger.)

 

But that's okay, mate, this isn't a topic about Vettel and I know why you're here anyway; it certainly isn't to cheer on your favourites so I'll let you stand on your soapbox now. Apparently for me to even suggest that Vettel is in the same league as Hamilton, Alonso, and Raikkonen in terms of wheel-to-wheel prowess was unacceptable enough to cause you to waste most of your day discussing it here. :wave:

 

 

 

"Since Belgium 2010, Vettel hasn't actually crashed into anyone, he's been crashed into--the fact that he's been issued no penalties for contact since Belgium 2010 (including the contacts during the race in Abu Dhabi in 2012) supports the idea that, at least in the opinions of the stewards, he hasn't had any contact for which he's been at fault since 2010."

 

Aside from "since Belgium 2010 Vettel hasn't actually crashed into anyone" being factually untrue, post-Belgium 2010 other than Karthekeyan, no other drivers have actually been punished for contact with Vettel. Over numerous incidents. Yet Vettel has "been crashed into?" Ok then!

 

"Hamilton's only grew worse in 2011, hence my reasoning--there is a trend continuing on from 2010 in which Vettel got better at wheel-to-wheel action while Hamilton did the exact opposite..."

 

Vettel caused more crashes and received more penalties in 2010 than Hamilton. Yet "there's a [negative] trend continuing from 2010" about Hamilton!? Moreover, Vettel regressed again in 2012, receiving multiple penalties for various reasons. In 2012 Hamilton really was, (using your approach) crashed into multiple timesEach of those times the other driver (Maldonado, Grosjean, Hulkenberg) received a penalty. There's also the (obvious) point that Vettel spent most of 2011 alone at the front of the race in a Newey rocketship. But nevermind that eh, because you think you've idenitified a "trend!?" :rotfl: The reality is that you're using one time period, 2011, selectively and then applying it as the rule. Which makes for wonky logic and faulty conclusions. 

 

"...doesn't explain races like Spa 2012..."

 

The race where four cars ahead of Vettel crashed out at the first corner? And a further two cars had their races ruined by that same first corner pile-up? What are you suggesting that explains about Vettel (on a one stop strategy), who in effect gained six places from that first corner collision alone?

 

"But that's okay, mate, this isn't a topic about Vettel and I know why you're here anyway; it certainly isn't to cheer on your favourites..."

 

I'm here to discuss the subject of the thread, which I am doing. Or are you telling me that you think you know my reasons whereas I don't? And I don't have any "favourites" in F1. Hope that helps.

 

"Apparently for me to even suggest that Vettel is in the same league as Hamilton, Alonso, and Raikkonen in terms of wheel-to-wheel prowess..."

 

The problem is that your suggestion hinges upon faulty logic and double standards, especially when it comes to the amount and (your) application of penalties on different drivers. The point of a forum is to discuss such inconsistencies, no? 

 

"...waste most of your day discussing it here."

 

A few posts over the course of an evening versus...2,403 posts, and I'm wasting my time? Is this another of your "trends" you've identified?

:wave:

 

 

EDIT: I'd also like you to detail your claim of:

 

"Even though Kimi and Fernando [than Vettel] have made more 'mistakes' when wheel-to-wheel, so to speak..."

 

Because I think most people would clearly have both of them in a league or two above Vettel and Hamilton in terms of fewer errors/mistakes/penalties over recent years.

 

Further double standards of yours can be seen in:

 

"I'd put Suzuka 2012 and Malaysia 2013 both on Alonso, and the Monaco debacle on Kimi."

 

Yet Vettel "hasn't actually crashed into anyone" post-Belgium 2010 (Button will tell you differently from as recently as Hungary 2013) but has been "crashed into" despite only Karthekeyan receiving a penalty for a coming-together with Vettel in 2012? Yet for incidents (quoted above) for which neither Alonso nor Raikkonen received penalties you'd put those down as errors/crashes caused by Alonso (exactly the same type of incident as Vettel going into Button in Hungary 2013) and Raikkonen!? Blatant and arbitrary double standards.

 

But wait...on your profile..."Favourite Driver: S.Vettel."

:rolleyes:


Edited by F1234, 17 September 2013 - 01:11.


#119 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,479 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:22

Because I think most people would clearly have both of them in a league or two above Vettel and Hamilton in terms of fewer errors/mistakes/penalties over recent years.

 

Do you have stats on this? "One or two leagues above" seems rich considering the consistency of Vettel.



Advertisement

#120 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,170 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:38

as expected, this thread has turned into 

''My WANG is bigger that your's''. 

kinda blow by blow thread

:o

 

P.S F1234 mate you are about 2 years too late to jump on the 'Vettel hate' wagon. Vettel can overtake cleanly and is in the same league as Alo, Rai, Ham. deal with it, you just don't win 4 on the trot without being a good driver.


Edited by eronrules, 17 September 2013 - 01:43.


#121 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,299 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:00

Tricky topic. Obvious candidates for worst are Perez, Maldonado and RG. Best is trickier, I voted Alonso but forgot Button, I feel Button is the most 'aware', he seems to have eyes everywhere. Lewis is the most talented, can pull off the most audacious moves but clips his opponents front wing too often. 



#122 F1234

F1234
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:23

Do you have stats on this? "One or two leagues above" seems rich considering the consistency of Vettel.

 

Sure, Vettel is a "consistent" front runner from PP, lights-to-flag, in the fastest car. Yet the multiple errors/mistakes/punishments when not in front are overlooked. Or forgotten. Deliberately? Probably. Also it's telling that some posters want to frame it as "penalties for wheel-to-wheel racing after contact," yet Vettel received drive-through penalties for forcing Alonso off the track in Monza 2012 and overtaking Button off the track Germany 2012. He also overtook another car off-the-track in Abu Dhabi 2012 but gave the place back.

 

Errors as per penalties for Drive through, stop-go, post-race, time added.

 

Vettel

        

2010 2, 0, 0, 0

2011 0, 0, 0, 0

2012 2, 0, 1, 20

2013 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Total 4, 0, 1, 20

 

Alonso

 

2010 2, 0, 0, 0

2011 0, 0, 1, 20

2012 0, 0, 0, 0

2013 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Total  2, 0, 1, 20

 

Raikkonen

 

2012 0, 0, 0, 0

2013 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Total 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Hamilton

 

2010 1, 0, 0, 0

2011 3, 0, 2, 40

2012 0, 0, 0, 0

2013 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Total 4, 0, 2, 40

 

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/statistics/

 

2010 there were no stats on that link but I remember two drive throughs for Vettel and Alonso each, controversially for Alonso in Britain. Plus one for Hamilton in Valencia. Any others? Also, 2009 doesn't reflect well on Vettel either but I won't add that because it upsets some posters?

 

Interesting, though, that in both of Vettel's WDC years which were close, he received more penalties than the other front' runners combined. Just as I've been saying.


Edited by F1234, 17 September 2013 - 02:35.


#123 F1234

F1234
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:33

as expected, this thread has turned into 

''My WANG is bigger that your's''. 

kinda blow by blow thread

:o

 

P.S F1234 mate you are about 2 years too late to jump on the 'Vettel hate' wagon. Vettel can overtake cleanly and is in the same league as Alo, Rai, Ham. deal with it, you just don't win 4 on the trot without being a good driver.

 

"Vettel Hate?" Grow up.

 

I have merely pointed out that Vettel has made a lot of errors in overtaking (side-by-side, from behind, whatever) but some don't like their favourite being subject to constructive criticism. I've made my position clear with on-topic posts backed up by statistics and reasonable arguments, highlighting numerous double standards of a couple of other posters.

 

For what it's worth, Vettel's devoted fanbase isn't obliged to write biased posts or harangue posters who constructively criticise "Seb." They aren't obliged to behave like the internet mafia. Plenty don't rate Vettel as the Second Coming of F1 and his lack of wheel-to-wheel/overtaking ability compared to other drivers is one of the main reasons why. The poll reflects that. And I am discussing it. So your problem is what, exactly?

 

And I haven't said, suggested or even hinted, Mr Strawman, that Vettel isn't (at the least) a good driver. "Deal with it?"



#124 GuilhermeMach

GuilhermeMach
  • New Member

  • 18 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:57

"Since Belgium 2010, Vettel hasn't actually crashed into anyone, he's been crashed into--the fact that he's been issued no penalties for contact since Belgium 2010 (including the contacts during the race in Abu Dhabi in 2012) supports the idea that, at least in the opinions of the stewards, he hasn't had any contact for which he's been at fault since 2010."

 

Aside from "since Belgium 2010 Vettel hasn't actually crashed into anyone" being factually untrue, post-Belgium 2010 other than Karthekeyan, no other drivers have actually been punished for contact with Vettel. Over numerous incidents. Yet Vettel has "been crashed into?" Ok then!

 

"Hamilton's only grew worse in 2011, hence my reasoning--there is a trend continuing on from 2010 in which Vettel got better at wheel-to-wheel action while Hamilton did the exact opposite..."

 

Vettel caused more crashes and received more penalties in 2010 than Hamilton. Yet "there's a [negative] trend continuing from 2010" about Hamilton!? Moreover, Vettel regressed again in 2012, receiving multiple penalties for various reasons. In 2012 Hamilton really was, (using your approach) crashed into multiple timesEach of those times the other driver (Maldonado, Grosjean, Hulkenberg) received a penalty. There's also the (obvious) point that Vettel spent most of 2011 alone at the front of the race in a Newey rocketship. But nevermind that eh, because you think you've idenitified a "trend!?" :rotfl: The reality is that you're using one time period, 2011, selectively and then applying it as the rule. Which makes for wonky logic and faulty conclusions. 

 

"...doesn't explain races like Spa 2012..."

 

The race where four cars ahead of Vettel crashed out at the first corner? And a further two cars had their races ruined by that same first corner pile-up? What are you suggesting that explains about Vettel (on a one stop strategy), who in effect gained six places from that first corner collision alone?

 

"But that's okay, mate, this isn't a topic about Vettel and I know why you're here anyway; it certainly isn't to cheer on your favourites..."

 

I'm here to discuss the subject of the thread, which I am doing. Or are you telling me that you think you know my reasons whereas I don't? And I don't have any "favourites" in F1. Hope that helps.

 

"Apparently for me to even suggest that Vettel is in the same league as Hamilton, Alonso, and Raikkonen in terms of wheel-to-wheel prowess..."

 

The problem is that your suggestion hinges upon faulty logic and double standards, especially when it comes to the amount and (your) application of penalties on different drivers. The point of a forum is to discuss such inconsistencies, no? 

 

"...waste most of your day discussing it here."

 

A few posts over the course of an evening versus...2,403 posts, and I'm wasting my time? Is this another of your "trends" you've identified?

:wave:

 

 

EDIT: I'd also like you to detail your claim of:

 

"Even though Kimi and Fernando [than Vettel] have made more 'mistakes' when wheel-to-wheel, so to speak..."

 

Because I think most people would clearly have both of them in a league or two above Vettel and Hamilton in terms of fewer errors/mistakes/penalties over recent years.

 

Further double standards of yours can be seen in:

 

"I'd put Suzuka 2012 and Malaysia 2013 both on Alonso, and the Monaco debacle on Kimi."

 

Yet Vettel "hasn't actually crashed into anyone" post-Belgium 2010 (Button will tell you differently from as recently as Hungary 2013) but has been "crashed into" despite only Karthekeyan receiving a penalty for a coming-together with Vettel in 2012? Yet for incidents (quoted above) for which neither Alonso nor Raikkonen received penalties you'd put those down as errors/crashes caused by Alonso (exactly the same type of incident as Vettel going into Button in Hungary 2013) and Raikkonen!? Blatant and arbitrary double standards.

 

But wait...on your profile..."Favourite Driver: S.Vettel."

:rolleyes:

 

You're writting a wall of text there, but I simply can't be bothered to read it all when you make blatant exaggerations or clear mistakes.

 

First underline: I'm baffled at the supposed "multiple penalties Vettel has recieved" that you so claim. After Belgium 2010 (and I think it is quite clear that Afterburner acknowledges that Vettel was lacking in wheel-to-wheel prowess before then, and so do I), Vettel has recieved a whooping 4 penalties in total. They are, in order of increased relevancy for this thread:

  • Exclusion from qualifying in Abu Dhabi, for which he bears no fault;
  • One dubious drive-through penalty for passing through a yellow flag zone with his DRS open in Spain, which in future instances has been judged by the stewards as not necessarily meaning that the driver didn't slow down;
  • Drive through penalty in Monza for forcing Alonso off the track;
  • 20 second time penalty for overtaking Button off the track.

So he had 2 penalties for wheel-to-wheel infractions. Talk about hyperbole when you say "multiple penalties for various reasons".

 

Oh, by the way, should I mention how many penalties Hamilton had in 2011 alone? How about I throw in Istambul and Spa on Vettel's tally, to make things more fair?

20 second penalty in Malaysia for excessive weaving (had been given warning for doing the exact same thing one year earlier);

Drive through in Monaco for collision with Massa;

20 second penalty in Monaco for collision with Maldonado;

Drive through in Hungary for forcing di Resta off the track;

Drive through penalty in Singapore for collision with Massa.

 

So, yeah, 5 penalties for Hamilton and 4 for Vettel. I know you're not advocating for Hamilton here, and despite being a Vettel fan, I'm not stupid to suggest he's been the best wheel-to-wheel racer of the past few years, but I think you're trying to misinform others when you mention that Vettel had so much more penalties for collisions and the like over the past 3 and a half years, because that's simply not true. Just because a driver didn't recieve a penalty, it doesn't mean he wasn't at fault - the stewards are inconsistent and punish the outcome, not the action. If the driver at fault retires and the one being crashed into continues without any problems, then historically no penalty is issued (see Hamilton at Monza 2010) therefore the notion that "because other drivers weren't punished for contact with Vettel, then he wasn't crashed into" makes no sense.

 

Second underline: When you mention Belgium 2012 you clearly show how you don't know shit about what you're talking about. Vettel was held up by the mayhem caused by Grosjean, as he was on the outside at La Source and by the time he could dive to the inside, half the midfield had passed through. He started 11th, and by the end of the first lap he was 12th, when Alonso, Hamilton, Grosjean, Maldonado and Kobayashi were already out or behind him. So no, the only benefit he derived from that crash is that he had two fewer worthy oponents to fight (Lewis and Fernando), but he gained no direct, on-track position from that crash.

 

Third underline: That's rich, when you yourself are inlcuding qualifying penalties and a dubious yellow-flag infringement in a discussion regarding wheel-to-wheel ability :rolleyes: Once again, Google would have helped tremendously. Picking the numbers raw from F1 Fanatic without checking for circumstances on a single one of the wasn't the brightest idea. And it even says right on the same table on F1 Fanatic that one of the penalties was in qualifying (!), which anyone with a decent-at-best memory would remember as running out of fuel in Abu Dhabi. I'm not saying this as a pissed Vettel fan, I'm saying this as someone who hates when people post misleading facts on internet forums and makes everyone else either believe in lies or waste time trying to pick through made-up facts.

 

Fourth underline: and thread-relevancy just hit bedrock-level.


Edited by GuilhermeMach, 17 September 2013 - 03:05.


#125 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,479 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:04

Errors as per penalties for Drive through, stop-go, post-race, time added.

 

Vettel

        

2010 2, 0, 0, 0

2011 0, 0, 0, 0

2012 2, 0, 1, 20

2013 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Total 4, 0, 1, 20

 

Alonso

 

2010 2, 0, 0, 0

2011 0, 0, 1, 20

2012 0, 0, 0, 0

2013 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Total  2, 0, 1, 20

 

Raikkonen

 

2012 0, 0, 0, 0

2013 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Total 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Hamilton

 

2010 1, 0, 0, 0

2011 3, 0, 2, 40

2012 0, 0, 0, 0

2013 0, 0, 0, 0

 

Total 4, 0, 2, 40

 

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/statistics/

 

 

The 2012 penalties for Vettel were the Alonso overtake in Monza, failing to slow under yellow flags in Spain and the Button overtake. I don't want to re-open a can of worms, but the Button penalty was considered to be harsh by many and the yellow flag thing is not related to wheel-to-wheel action. For 2010, one drive-through was for staying too far away from the safety car, which is also not related to wheel-to-wheel racing. So, 2 out of 5 incidents were not related to wheel-to-wheel racing. I think a claim such as "he still crashes a lot when he is caught in the chasing pack" is simply not true and also not backed up by those numbers. His large gap in WDC this year is also due to racing very well in the pack at a time when the RB was not the best car.

 

Kimi, Alonso and Button are excellent wheel-to-wheel, but I think Vettel is up there as well from around 2010.


Edited by apoka, 17 September 2013 - 03:07.


#126 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:07

All I can see is that the move wasn´t as easy as you want to make it sound "because it was a Mercedes". You still had to outbrake him, and not everyone was able to. Don´t let the smoke fool you, Lewis nailed his braking point and kept his line, he wasn´t diving with desperate late-braking.

 

And of course these are "valid", whatever that means. But if you´re trying to imply a nitpicked video with a driver passing another is the way to judge their wheel to wheel ability, then that´s quite poor. As I told you these guys have a career behind them and we know it well. That´s the way to judge it.

 

If I post here a video of Lewis messing up during a pass attempt and tried to sell he messes everytime he goes wheel to wheel with someone, that´d be quite stupid. That´s what you´re doing "he passed him here and here, so he´ll always do so and he´s better racer".

 

No, I believe that Hamilton is a better whee-to-wheel racer than Raikkonen because the majority of racing battles I've seen between the two, Lewis wins and Kimi folds. I can show many more examples of Kimi's lack of aggression costing him.

 

Unlike your opening post, I've actually given reasons to why I not only believe that Hamilton and Alonso are the best wheel-to-wheel racers, but I also gave reasons to why I believe that they are better than the poll leader (Raikkonen).

 

Everything you said in your OP, the word "Raikkonen" could easily be replaced by "Alonso" and it would still be just as valid.



#127 dreamer

dreamer
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:10

Kimi is the best and then Hamilton (last 2 seasons)  :up:



#128 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 5,907 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:14

Perez is not the train wreck we've seen from other young drivers in the past.  He is just a little too eager at times.  The other drivers will straighten him out.  He'll be right.



#129 hoohar

hoohar
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:31

Lol Kimi is dominating the poll for best wheel to wheel racer? Good lord.



#130 Boxerevo

Boxerevo
  • Member

  • 1,890 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:46

Voted for Maldonado,he is the most dangerous driver i think.

 

Perez will settle down sometime and Grosjean problems were starts,both are still bad imo but Maldonado give me chills.

 

Maybe more because i am lewis fan. :p



#131 Tron

Tron
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:54

For the best... I gave it to Hamilton, just pipping Kimi and Vettel, and a Button in the wet.

 

For the worst... the ever entertaining Maldonado... That with that said, Schekter in his first years was worse. Fittipaldi wanted him out of F1, then he became champion...



#132 BorkoF2012

BorkoF2012
  • Member

  • 752 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:55

Lol Kimi is dominating the poll for best wheel to wheel racer? Good lord.

He has the most fans. If there is a topic "Who's the best qualifier in F1" he would probably win in it as well, although he is not the best.



#133 F1234

F1234
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:24

You're writting a wall of text there, but I simply can't be bothered to read it all when you make blatant exaggerations or clear mistakes.

 

First underline: I'm baffled at the supposed "multiple penalties Vettel has recieved" that you so claim. After Belgium 2010 (and I think it is quite clear that Afterburner acknowledges that Vettel was lacking in wheel-to-wheel prowess before then, and so do I), Vettel has recieved a whooping 4 penalties in total. They are, in order of increased relevancy for this thread:

  • Exclusion from qualifying in Abu Dhabi, for which he bears no fault;
  • One dubious drive-through penalty for passing through a yellow flag zone with his DRS open in Spain, which in future instances has been judged by the stewards as not necessarily meaning that the driver didn't slow down;
  • Drive through penalty in Monza for forcing Alonso off the track;
  • 20 second time penalty for overtaking Button off the track.

So he had 2 penalties for wheel-to-wheel infractions. Talk about hyperbole when you say "multiple penalties for various reasons".

 

Oh, by the way, should I mention how many penalties Hamilton had in 2011 alone? How about I throw in Istambul and Spa on Vettel's tally, to make things more fair?

20 second penalty in Malaysia for excessive weaving (had been given warning for doing the exact same thing one year earlier);

Drive through in Monaco for collision with Massa;

20 second penalty in Monaco for collision with Maldonado;

Drive through in Hungary for forcing di Resta off the track;

Drive through penalty in Singapore for collision with Massa.

 

So, yeah, 5 penalties for Hamilton and 4 for Vettel. I know you're not advocating for Hamilton here, and despite being a Vettel fan, I'm not stupid to suggest he's been the best wheel-to-wheel racer of the past few years, but I think you're trying to misinform others when you mention that Vettel had so much more penalties for collisions and the like over the past 3 and a half years, because that's simply not true. Just because a driver didn't recieve a penalty, it doesn't mean he wasn't at fault - the stewards are inconsistent and punish the outcome, not the action. If the driver at fault retires and the one being crashed into continues without any problems, then historically no penalty is issued (see Hamilton at Monza 2010) therefore the notion that "because other drivers weren't punished for contact with Vettel, then he wasn't crashed into" makes no sense.

 

Second underline: When you mention Belgium 2012 you clearly show how you don't know shit about what you're talking about. Vettel was held up by the mayhem caused by Grosjean, as he was on the outside at La Source and by the time he could dive to the inside, half the midfield had passed through. He started 11th, and by the end of the first lap he was 12th, when Alonso, Hamilton, Grosjean, Maldonado and Kobayashi were already out or behind him. So no, the only benefit he derived from that crash is that he had two fewer worthy oponents to fight (Lewis and Fernando), but he gained no direct, on-track position from that crash.

 

Third underline: That's rich, when you yourself are inlcuding qualifying penalties and a dubious yellow-flag infringement in a discussion regarding wheel-to-wheel ability :rolleyes: Once again, Google would have helped tremendously. Picking the numbers raw from F1 Fanatic without checking for circumstances on a single one of the wasn't the brightest idea. And it even says right on the same table on F1 Fanatic that one of the penalties was in qualifying (!), which anyone with a decent-at-best memory would remember as running out of fuel in Abu Dhabi. I'm not saying this as a pissed Vettel fan, I'm saying this as someone who hates when people post misleading facts on internet forums and makes everyone else either believe in lies or waste time trying to pick through made-up facts.

 

Fourth underline: and thread-relevancy just hit bedrock-level.

 

1st UL. Again, Vettel spent most of 2011 in first and unchallenged. In the two years this wasn’t true – 2010&2012 – he received multiple penalties. “Multiple” meaning “more than one.” In which case he must have made multiple errors to have received multiple penalties!? Most of which were for errors when overtaking, which is the subject of this thread! And these don’t include the other collisions (again mainly when involved with overtaking) he had which didn’t result in a penalty, of which there quite a few in 2012.

 

Why all the stuff about Hamilton? I’ve accounted for him. Even then his 2011 implosion - the exception rather than the rule (n.b Afterburner) - skews his stats. Overall, Vettel only has slightly fewer penalties than Hamilton 2010 onwards. But you have no problem accepting Hamilton’s errors. Why? Because he isn’t your favourite driver!

 

And Vettel clearly has had more penalties than Alonso and Raikkonen combined, in recent years (inclusive of Hamilton too for 2012&2013) and nearly the same as Hamilton, inclusive of 2011 meltdown. What is contentious about pointing that out? Nothing.

 

“…therefore the notion that "because other drivers weren't punished for contact with Vettel, then he wasn't crashed into" makes no sense.”

 

So why, when no penalties were issued, are some of you adamant “Vettel was crashed into?” How about “Vettel crashed into a TR driver in Abu and Senna in Brazil?” Do you accept that? Nope, I didn’t think so. Then other collisions for other drivers (Alonso, Raikkonen) are mentioned for which they received no penalty and yet  “they were Alonso’s and Raikkonen’s fault.” Which is blatant double standards because of driver bias. It’s all so predictable.

 

2nd UL. I clearly wrote “Vettel in effect gained six places as a result of that first corner pile-up." In effect. Please read. I also pointed out the relevant fact that Vettel was on a one-stop strategy.

 

3rd UL. Oh for heaven’s sakes read! I have clearly not included qualifying penalties. I have made no mention of them whatsoever. And why are you complaining about the citing of non-overtaking punishments when you’ve even quoted me re. “multiple penalties for various reasons!?" And if you care to follow the posts chronologically these wider criterias were introduced by other posters, rather than by me!

 

F1 Fanatic stats…I clearly haven’t included or quoted the qualifying punishments! Again, read! For example, for 2012 Vettel I have quoted “2,0,1,20” which is the last four columns from the F1 fanatic stats, which does not include qualifying penalties. I have already made that explicitly clear in the posts above.

 

And childish comment about Google. The “context” for penalties is taken into account by the stewards. Or what other context are you suggesting? That Vettel was temporary possessed by aliens when he forced Alonso off the track and passed Button off it? Whether you’re “pissed” or not I don’t know but you need to take a step back, read, breathe, consider and assess before lauching into your next angry/sweary diatribe. Again, I have not mentioned or included qualifying penalties, ABU 2012 or otherwise. Read.

 

4th UL. Yeah? Why not take that up with Afterburner who made the silly jibe in the first place? Because he’s a forum buddy and fellow Vettel fan? Too pathetic for words.


Edited by F1234, 17 September 2013 - 06:40.


#134 F1234

F1234
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:33

The 2012 penalties for Vettel were the Alonso overtake in Monza, failing to slow under yellow flags in Spain and the Button overtake. I don't want to re-open a can of worms, but the Button penalty was considered to be harsh by many and the yellow flag thing is not related to wheel-to-wheel action. For 2010, one drive-through was for staying too far away from the safety car, which is also not related to wheel-to-wheel racing. So, 2 out of 5 incidents were not related to wheel-to-wheel racing. I think a claim such as "he still crashes a lot when he is caught in the chasing pack" is simply not true and also not backed up by those numbers. His large gap in WDC this year is also due to racing very well in the pack at a time when the RB was not the best car.

 

Kimi, Alonso and Button are excellent wheel-to-wheel, but I think Vettel is up there as well from around 2010.

 

As I've just said in the post above, these are just for penalties received, the majority of which Vettel received for causing collisions. It does not include collisions (e.g into the back of Button Hungary 2013) which didn't result in a penalty. Vettel, despite spending a lot of time in the lead in his career, has consistently been involved in prangs and collisions. Which comes back to my point of him being the weakest wheel-to-wheel racer or overtaker in general. With the advantage he has had (fastest car and much time leading races) but still have a history of collisions, then it doesn't look great. Also, there were numerous other collisions 2007-2009.

 

And whatever you think of those numbers, Vettel's are clearly higher than Alonso and Raikkonen. And other than 2011 (Vettel in lead for most laps of most races v Hamilton implosion) it's also true his numbers are higher than Hamilton's. Which is the point I've repeatedly made.

 

PS. Vettel has barely been in the chasing pack in 2013!



#135 jedioriginal

jedioriginal
  • Member

  • 675 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:37

The final few laps of Spa 2008 are enough evidence for me to believe that Hamilton is a better racer than Raikkonen. Lewis made Kimi look like a rookie there.

 

I don't understand why so many people are voting Raikkonen anyway. If there was ever a wheel-to-wheel scenario between Kimi and Lewis where both had identical machinery, and they were going side-by-side into a heavy braking zone, I'd bet my car that Lewis would out-brake Kimi, every single day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

 

I also don't think Raikkonen is any cleaner than Hamilton either. Lewis, contradictory to popular beliefs, is quite clean when racing. He hasn't been involved in an incident which was over 50% his fault since Singapore 2011.

Ok just watch this at about 1:30. Hamilton comes all in and quess which one saves the day and no crash. The end,  i rest my case.



#136 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,426 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:38

Every thread about something general goes to shit because we have clones after clones repeating the same crap over and over again. State your opinion and GTFO instead of polluting the thread or open a thread about Vettel's lack of overtaking skill/penalties/whatever. Bah


Edited by Diablobb81, 17 September 2013 - 06:39.


#137 F1234

F1234
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:48

Every thread about something general goes to shit because we have clones after clones repeating the same crap over and over again. State your opinion and GTFO instead of polluting the thread or open a thread about Vettel's lack of overtaking skill/penalties/whatever. Bah

 

The thread title is: "Best and worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid poll." If you don't like the thread title, I suggest you follow your own impolite advice of "GTFO!" ;)

 

But what are those who think Vettel is the worst supposed to do? Keep quiet because Vettel's ferocious internet fans will not tolerate any criticism of their favourite driver?


Edited by F1234, 17 September 2013 - 06:49.


#138 Konsta

Konsta
  • Member

  • 1,739 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:04

I don´t know whether the thread topic should´ve been in caps or what. Some people have difficulty in differentiating between wheel-to-wheel racing and overtaking. DiResta showed his skills as a w2w -racer dueling with Kimi in Austin despite the fact that he was eventually overtaken.



#139 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 9,305 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:04

The results are quite remarkable. Button getting only five votes as best is heavily skewed to say the least. Like Kimi, who I voted for, he is one of a handful left who do not subscribe to the school of shoving others off the circuit.

 

Tonka already pointed it out but yeah, I guess like you there are many who have him somewhere up there but have a different favorite to vote on. If the poll was to somehow point out 3 drivers instead of 1 this might reflect better for him.



Advertisement

#140 Dozer

Dozer
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:13

I feel Button is the most 'aware', he seems to have eyes everywhere.

 

Apart from when they temporarily stopped working at Canada and he wiped out Lewis :evil:



#141 Dozer

Dozer
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:16

He has the most fans. If there is a topic "Who's the best qualifier in F1" he would probably win in it as well, although he is not the best.

 

Bang on :up:



#142 Radion

Radion
  • Member

  • 665 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:17

Lol Kimi is dominating the poll for best wheel to wheel racer? Good lord.

Well, it surley can't be hamilton, can it? 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=37qZKH3P7X4

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=L1Wcch5nR-g

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0kgA703dA2E

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=3GKdWoHVqLI

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=L8eYGbSALYY

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=lmBzxAjbeew

 

Kimi practically has none of these incidents while fighting wtw, alonso as well.

Hamilton sometimes lacks spatial awareness or just underestimates the situation/overestimates his talent/doesn't know when to yield. Really don't know how anyone can consider him the best wheel to wheel racer, he's way too many of those incidents to be considered that.



#143 Dozer

Dozer
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:23

No, I believe that Hamilton is a better whee-to-wheel racer than Raikkonen because the majority of racing battles I've seen between the two, Lewis wins and Kimi folds. I can show many more examples of Kimi's lack of aggression costing him.

 

Unlike your opening post, I've actually given reasons to why I not only believe that Hamilton and Alonso are the best wheel-to-wheel racers, but I also gave reasons to why I believe that they are better than the poll leader (Raikkonen).

 

Everything you said in your OP, the word "Raikkonen" could easily be replaced by "Alonso" and it would still be just as valid.

 

Someone else whose TV shows the same images as mine :up:

 

It's amazing how reality is hotly disputed in here, it's like we're watching different races :confused:



#144 jedioriginal

jedioriginal
  • Member

  • 675 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:28

Well, it surley can't be hamilton, can it? 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=37qZKH3P7X4

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=L1Wcch5nR-g

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0kgA703dA2E

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=3GKdWoHVqLI

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=L8eYGbSALYY

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=lmBzxAjbeew

 

Kimi practically has none of these incidents while fighting wtw, alonso as well.

Hamilton sometimes lacks spatial awareness or just underestimates the situation/overestimates his talent/doesn't know when to yield. Really don't know how anyone can consider him the best wheel to wheel racer, he's way too many of those incidents to be considered that.

You forgot the one where Hamilton crashes Kimi on the pits :clap: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wec4Q-YQ0Ss

 

Kingshark you were right,Hamilton indeed outbrakes Räikkönen



#145 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:34

I don´t know whether the thread topic should´ve been in caps or what. Some people have difficulty in differentiating between wheel-to-wheel racing and overtaking. DiResta showed his skills as a w2w -racer dueling with Kimi in Austin despite the fact that he was eventually overtaken.

wasn't that the Hulk?    ;) di Resta had a good one with Kimi in hockenheim.

 

voted Kimi too - for me, wheel to wheel racing is not only when you're doing the overtaking, but also when you're being overtaken. I applauded when Perez overtook Kimi in monza last year, on the outside of the second chicane, IIRC even being 2 wide inside the chicane - not because I support Perez or dislike Kimi (quite the opposite!   :lol: ), but because of the wonderful wheel-to-wheel skills Kimi showed there, while being overtaken. if someone can fnd that on video, please share! it's a pity they have uploaded this year's italy race edit already, this must've been in last year's.   :rolleyes:

 

p.s.: I'm not really a fan of the ignore button, but that F1234 dude(/girl) is definitely worth using it. take that as an advice for those who started arguing with him/her, as it is obviously pointless.  :wave:



#146 JeePee

JeePee
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:35

Bang on :up:

 

I don't think Kimi will win such a poll here. That will go to Vettel or Hamilton. But I think him leading this one is completely reasonable.

 

Think about it this way: If Hamilton is going to overtake someone... who do you want it to be? With Vettel or Alonso you know there is a chance he gets blocked or pushed wide like for example they did to eachother in Monza and that there is a small chance they lose a wing endplate or something. With Kimi alongside you just know he's not going to do anything stupid or unfair, plus, if the other driver makes a mistake or runs wide, big chance Kimi will avoid him. Same goes for Button btw.


Edited by JeePee, 17 September 2013 - 07:37.


#147 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:36

Bang on :up:

OK, open a new poll, named "who's the best qualifier?", let's see the poll results.

 

oh, don't forget to bring some humble pie, you'll need something to eat. :rolleyes:



#148 Konsta

Konsta
  • Member

  • 1,739 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:49

 

wasn't that the Hulk?    ;) di Resta had a good one with Kimi in hockenheim.

 

voted Kimi too - for me, wheel to wheel racing is not only when you're doing the overtaking, but also when you're being overtaken. I applauded when Perez overtook Kimi in monza last year, on the outside of the second chicane, IIRC even being 2 wide inside the chicane - not because I support Perez or dislike Kimi (quite the opposite!   :lol: ), but because of the wonderful wheel-to-wheel skills Kimi showed there, while being overtaken. if someone can fnd that on video, please share! it's a pity they have uploaded this year's italy race edit already, this must've been in last year's.   :rolleyes:

 

p.s.: I'm not really a fan of the ignore button, but that F1234 dude(/girl) is definitely worth using it. take that as an advice for those who started arguing with him/her, as it is obviously pointless.  :wave:

 

Sorry - you´re totally right. It was Hulk in Austin. Very nice battle altogether.



#149 Dozer

Dozer
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:50

I don't think Kimi will win such a poll here. That will go to Vettel or Hamilton. But I think him leading this one is completely reasonable.

 

Think about it this way: If Hamilton is going to overtake someone... who do you want it to be? With Vettel or Alonso you know there is a chance he gets blocked or pushed wide like for example they did to eachother in Monza and that there is a small chance they lose a wing endplate or something. With Kimi alongside you just know he's not going to do anything stupid or unfair, plus, if the other driver makes a mistake or runs wide, big chance Kimi will avoid him. Same goes for Button btw.

 

I thumbed up that post because it's no coincidence he sees what I see, we're not voting for favourite Drivers; Kimi may have been the best wheel to wheel racer but since 2007 he's lost that mantle and i'm surprised that F1 fans watching today still can't see that - I'm a Lewis fan but will admit Vettel is probably better at Pole-Pole conversions than Lewis, if someone started a poll on that subject I would vote using my eyes and my brain, not blind stubborn allegiance :|



#150 Der Pate

Der Pate
  • Member

  • 624 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:59

Discussion is absolutely pointless!

 

Vettel is able to overtake in some corners, because the superiour aero of the Red Bull gives him the possibility to do that. In fact I think, that Vettel is one of the best wheel-to-wheel-drivers...

 

Alonso is a great driver, whenever he smells, that there is a chance of winning a race. But wheel-to-wheel?

 

Hamilton makes some great moves, but he crashes to often to say, that he is the best wheel-to-wheel-driver.

 

Maybe regarding the fights and the outcomes it should be Raikkonen.

 

Remember: The topic is just wheel-to-wheel!