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Best and worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid poll.


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Poll: Best and worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid. (506 member(s) have cast votes)

Who´s the best wheel to wheel racer on the grid?

  1. Vettel (24 votes [4.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.74%

  2. Webber (12 votes [2.37%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.37%

  3. Alonso (95 votes [18.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.77%

  4. Massa (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  5. Button (28 votes [5.53%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.53%

  6. Perez (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  7. Räikkönen (214 votes [42.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.29%

  8. Grosjean (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  9. Rosberg (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  10. Hamilton (117 votes [23.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.12%

  11. Hulkenberg (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  12. Gutierrez (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  13. Di Resta (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  14. Sutil (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  15. Maldonado (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  16. Bottas (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  17. Vergne (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  18. Ricciardo (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  19. Other (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

Who´s the worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid?

  1. Vettel (22 votes [4.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.35%

  2. Webber (9 votes [1.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.78%

  3. Alonso (4 votes [0.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.79%

  4. Massa (24 votes [4.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.74%

  5. Button (5 votes [0.99%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.99%

  6. Perez (155 votes [30.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.63%

  7. Räikkönen (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  8. Grosjean (102 votes [20.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.16%

  9. Rosberg (7 votes [1.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.38%

  10. Hamilton (16 votes [3.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.16%

  11. Hulkenberg (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  12. Gutierrez (14 votes [2.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.77%

  13. Di Resta (5 votes [0.99%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.99%

  14. Sutil (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  15. Maldonado (125 votes [24.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.70%

  16. Bottas (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  17. Vergne (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  18. Ricciardo (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. Other (10 votes [1.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.98%

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#201 Maustinsj

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 16:18

Ok, I've got it - to stop the arguing:

Best: (insert my favourite driver)

Worst: (insert my favourite driver's closest rival)

Fanboys: discuss.

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#202 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 16:25

Best: Maldonado, Worst: Vettel. Just for the fun of of it.

 

 

..........

 

there are those who can, and there are those who cannot. 



#203 Afterburner

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 20:28

Bear with me on this.

 

I have discovered that, in light of recent debate and in the interest of producing a final answer to the problems discussed within this thread, there is a solitary reasonable output from the question posed by the thread starter, and that this singular conclusion holds that the best racer on the grid is produced by a lengthy process which eventually yields a concrete representation of any driver's given skill level at anything.

 

Observe two drivers, driver x and driver y. Each driver's variable is represented by their number of points scored each adjusted by a verifiable quantity of racing experience--in this case, quantity w is represented as a coefficient of driver x in the form of a percentage calculated by the number of racing events driver x has attended divided by the number of events driver x had the potential to attend, and quantity z is represented as a coefficient of driver y in the form of a percentage calculated by the number of racing events driver y has attended divided by the number of events driver y had the potential to attend. The number produced by multiplying a driver's total number of points scored by their potential experience percentage coefficient is known as their skill number, represented by S.

 

Skill numbers are known to be indefinite and able to change at any given time because of a number of factors, all of which are dealt with separately from the initial computation of a driver's experience coefficient and base points tally. One of these factors is represented by a third variable, c, which is a numerical evaluation of the amount by which one driver is potentially better than another. The value of c is impacted by the presence of a fourth variable, f. f is only present in the calculation of a driver's skill number if the driver has outperformed the driver with which he is being compared within a given sample of races, d. The value of f is multiplied by d and then adjusted as an exponent of Euler's number to take into account the value of repeated victories in the event of a trend before being again multiplied by a coefficient, d. The total impact of c on the equation is influenced by the value of f and d, the result of which are represented as a denominator of a sixth variable, q. q is the total number of races in which both drivers have competed.

 

Examine the following: c = q / (ef / dd). This equation yields a factor by which a driver a driver is potentially better than another driver when taking into consideration their comparative records.  The value of c is used in the calculation of u, a variable which assigns a numerical quantity to the potential levels which a driver is expected to be affected by unexpected events. The value of u changes depending on the drivers that are being compared, because their respective c value will be different. c is divided by a seventh variable, a, representing the severity of any given incident a driver faces--a can assume only one of five prime number values depending on the nature of the incident: 11, 7, 5, 3, or 1, and can be positive or negative depending on the nature of the incident. c over a yields u.

 

u is then multiplied by a coefficient which is exactly equal to the inverse cosine of an observer's angle of orientation with respect to a driver's abilities along a constant axis horizontal with respect to the origin, less than or equal to 90 degrees, p. If an observer holds an opinion of a driver's abilities which is exactly parallel to the driver's ability along this axis, then the coefficient used in multiplying u will be 1 (1 / cos 0), and the driver's u value is accepted as is and considered 'real' (real u value) in the eyes of a viewer. If a viewer holds an opinion exactly perpendicular (at odds) with a driver's abilities, then the u value will be undefined. The farther away from reality an observer's perspective, the greater the u value, positive or negative. The distance between the observer's viewpoint and the aforementioned axis is known as the reality gap, g, and varies upon the assessment of the viewer. g is multiplied as a coefficient of all the other values produced thus far. The reality gap is always greater than or equal to 1; the smaller the reality gap, the more valid the opinion. Once we have calculated u and g we can move on to the final step in the process.

 

So, let's summarise everything we have so far: in core form, we have ((q / (ef / dd)) / a)(1 / cos p)g, simplified to (c / a)(1 / cos p)g, further simplified to u(1 cos p)g. The number produced from this equation is the last and most important one we'll need in our analysis of a driver's skill level, because it provides a modifier by which we can mathematically quantify a driver's abilities. Having labored extensively in the production of a perhaps unnecessarily complex arithmetic formula through which we can once and for all end the argument as to who is the best driver at anything, I'll partake in an exercise of self-indulgence here and call the resultant number of this equation Burner's Number, represented by the variable B. The final step in the process is quite simple: multiply Burner's Number by the driver's skill number and you have a thoroughly reputable concrete analysis of a driver's skill level, or BS.

 

There are three conclusions that result from this equation: all modern drivers are clearly better than past drivers because they score more points, Burner's Number is always the one most numerically-suited to the observer's opinion, and finally, when in doubt about a driver's ability, positive or negative: Burner's Number times skill number.  ;)

 

Thanks for reading. :yawnface:



#204 ReAlien

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 20:45

Kimi.. ?  someone should pull out some stats on who has gotten the best of who in the last few years between Kimi/Lewis/Alonso in wheel to wheel battles.

 

Won't do. Sometimes you are overtaken simply because of different tires in two cars (old vs new or soft vs hard, inters vs wet), thus you would need to remove such overtaking maneuvers from your calculation. And that is without mentioning both obvious and dubious cases of unsportsmanlike conduct. And so on.. Therefore, won't do. :smoking:



#205 Avastrol

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 21:00

Those who are insisting on head-to-head battles are clearly missing the point, since a huge part of being a good wheel-to-wheel battler are expected rates or survival over a long-ish period of time.



#206 RaikkonenZn

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 21:20

We should make these polls with this statement - OTHER than YOUR favourite driver who do you think is the best wheel to wheel racer?

 

Haha I haven't thought through the logic of that statement entirely & whether the outcome of that poll would be accurate in any sense ( :rolleyes: ) but yeah it would be a fun idea. Run one poll allowing you to vote for you favourite & then one without your favourite & then compare the results!

 

In any case I voted Kimi as his wheel to wheel racing since his comeback has shown to be marvellous - I think many are confusing overtaking for wheel to wheel action! However I don't think there is vast differences between the top guys - Lewis, Alonso & Vettel have all shown they're just as capable. I see guys mentioning Button and I believe that he deserves to be up there - a very clean & fair racing driver who gives the correct amount of space when racing. 

As for the worst - definitely Perez and Maldonado stand out a fair bit, I think Grosjean is like that in the closest quarters at the start and in the first few laps of a race. But overall those 3 are the worst in todays F1



#207 DarthWillie

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 21:37

"Such flawed analysis..." yet you can't even begin to refute what I've written. I hope it is not on purpose.

For starter he didn't collide with the torro rosso
Second a sc is not wheel to wheel combat
Third having to give a place back happens a lot, not a real sight of danger now is it.
If I remember correctly the crash with button in spa 2011 is the last serious contact he had. Not too bad in my book

#208 undersquare

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 22:26

For starter he didn't collide with the torro rosso
Second a sc is not wheel to wheel combat
Third having to give a place back happens a lot, not a real sight of danger now is it.
If I remember correctly the crash with button in spa 2011 is the last serious contact he had. Not too bad in my book

I rate Sebi very high wheel-to-wheel but I think we have to count Abu Dhabi last year when he needed a new front wing after contact and a near miss, and also Brazil where he put Senna out and could so easily have gone out himself.  I suppose it could be argued he wasn't exactly wheel-to-wheel with Bruno, or didn't realise he was perhaps, but it was a big error of judgement to claim the apex then, and judgement is the name of the game we're talking about.  Not that these incidents stop him being excellent IMO, he is aggressive after all.



#209 DarthWillie

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 22:41

I rate Sebi very high wheel-to-wheel but I think we have to count Abu Dhabi last year when he needed a new front wing after contact and a near miss, and also Brazil where he put Senna out and could so easily have gone out himself.  I suppose it could be argued he wasn't exactly wheel-to-wheel with Bruno, or didn't realise he was perhaps, but it was a big error of judgement to claim the apex then, and judgement is the name of the game we're talking about.  Not that these incidents stop him being excellent IMO, he is aggressive after all.

Well, I put the blame on that one 100% on Bruno, but I had forgotten the contact, that I'll admit.



#210 Exb

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 22:43

Haven't voted as I don't know who is the best - personally I think all the top guys (Lewis, Fernando, Jenson, Seb and Kimi) are great wheel to wheel racers and very rarely make mistakes (that's why they are at the top) They know they need to finish races to get the points. I would probably say Kimi and Jenson are fairest and the other 3 a bit more aggressive in both overtaking and defending which maybe is more likely to result in a bit of damage but also more likely to gain/keep a place. I think Lewis has improved a lot since 2011 and as others have pointed out hasn't had a collision in quite a while - he seems to have more patience and pick his moments better. I think a lot also depends on how much risk a driver feels they have to take - if they are at the back of the field or outside the points (eg Seb in Abu Dhabi last year or sometimes Fernando at the start) they are going to try riskier overtakes as they know they have to get the overtake done as quickly as possible to allow them to get into the big points - there is nothing to lose if you are already outside the points so there will be a bigger risk of a collision. If you are already in 3rd you are more likely to bide your time and wait for a clear cut chance.
As for the worst - as others have mentioned there are 3 that seem to be involved in trouble more than others. Grosjean seems to be learning and getting better (certainly compared to last year), Perez I will give the benefit of doubt to at the moment - he is still a young driver and is trying to make a name for himself now he has stepped up to McLaren, and at the start of the season was getting pressure/expectations from media/fans to deliver wins and a championship challenge so maybe he is trying a little to hard in a poor car to try to deliver results to prove he deserves the drive. He does need to improve though (and quickly). Finally Maldonado - don't know what to say about him really, also needs to improve but don't know if he ever will, maybe if he gets a good car and realises he needs to finish races to have a chance at a title fight he will change his style?

#211 discover23

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 22:53

Well, I put the blame on that one 100% on Bruno, but I had forgotten the contact, that I'll admit.

for someone reason this incident appears to have been erased from people's minds. Incredible as it was Vettel was extremely lucky to continue the race after that hit and claim the title.



#212 Menace

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 23:09

Best: Kimi

 

Worst: Perez



#213 undersquare

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 23:13

Well, I put the blame on that one 100% on Bruno, but I had forgotten the contact, that I'll admit.

To claim the third apex after the start from the wide line was more than risky.  Cars bunched up all across the track, quite likely beyond his field of view, and he hidden from theirs, it was always likely to result in a collision.  With the championship at stake it was crazy.  And a huge shame for Senna in his last and home race.  But pressure I guess, plus his teammate's squeeze.



#214 ardbeg

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 00:03

To claim the third apex after the start from the wide line was more than risky.  Cars bunched up all across the track, quite likely beyond his field of view, and he hidden from theirs, it was always likely to result in a collision.  With the championship at stake it was crazy.  And a huge shame for Senna in his last and home race.  But pressure I guess, plus his teammate's squeeze.

Hard to judge, from Sennas car you can clearly see Vettel clearly in front and on the racing line. In any other race I would say 50-50, but in this case I think there should have been a little llightbulb lit up in Sennas head saying, "oh, there is the championship contender, I should not try to squeeze myself ahead of him".

But that's me, and this is not about wheel to wheel racing.

 

In my opinion, wheel to wheel racing occurs when two or more drivers are aware of eachother and are alongside for at least two consequtive corners. Wheel against wheel in corner entry is something else, it occurs instead of wheel to wheel racing. I realize that these kind of incidents must count towards rank in the "worst" category since those who cuts across and those who wedge in, they rarely get to the wheel-to-wheel state.

 



#215 Kingshark

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:10

(Hamilton made) More wheel-to-wheel mistakes in one year (2011) than Kimi in whole his carreer alone.

 

Hell no, Kimi in 2008 was just as embarrassing as Lewis in 2011.

 

Raikkonen is leading this poll because of his popularity, even though he is neither as efficient as Alonso, nor as brave as Hamilton, nor as clean as Button.



#216 ardbeg

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:54

Hell no, Kimi in 2008 was just as embarrassing as Lewis in 2011.

 

Raikkonen is leading this poll because of his popularity, even though he is neither as efficient as Alonso, nor as brave as Hamilton, nor as clean as Button.

Interesting, care to list his wheel to wheel racing mistakes in 2008? I seem to have forgotten some of them.



#217 Jovanotti

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:58

Interesting, care to list his wheel to wheel racing mistakes in 2008? I seem to have forgotten some of them.

 

Even though 2008 is all he remembers when it comes to Räikkönen, you apparently found a blind spot there indeed.

 

As for the poll, I'm with the majority of people in both questions.


Edited by Jovanotti, 18 September 2013 - 03:00.


#218 jjcale

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 03:51

Close shout between FA and KR and LH .... went with FA as LH is slightly too aggressive and KR is slightly too passive.  JB and PdR also deserve mentions... both are also very clean racers. 



#219 jedioriginal

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 04:52

Hell no, Kimi in 2008 was just as embarrassing as Lewis in 2011.

Raikkonen is leading this poll because of his popularity, even though he is neither as efficient as Alonso, nor as brave as Hamilton, nor as clean as Button.

List of all these wheel to wheel mistakes would be nice?And what comes to voting your favourite driver,i think that MOST people can be neutral.If this poll would be about qualy,i would not hesitate to vote Hamilton.

Edited by jedioriginal, 18 September 2013 - 04:59.


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#220 Raikkonen94

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 05:06

Hell no, Kimi in 2008 was just as embarrassing as Lewis in 2011.

 

Raikkonen is leading this poll because of his popularity, even though he is neither as efficient as Alonso, nor as brave as Hamilton, nor as clean as Button.

 

:lol:    When Raikkonen is leading a poll it's because of his popularity, but when you're favourite driver should lead a poll is because his amazing skill or talent? Can't it just be that Raikkonen is better at wheel-to-wheel racing than Alonso? Alonso is better in a lot of things related to F1, but he's not the perfect driver. Having said that, I don't think you've ever said anything positive about Raikkonen at all.  :stoned:



#221 Elissa

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:25

Interesting, care to list his wheel to wheel racing mistakes in 2008? I seem to have forgotten some of them.

 

Wheel 2 Wheel:

 

Australia - Outbraked himself racing Heikki and went off into gravel, similar mistake attempting a pass on Timo Glock some laps later 

Monaco - Crashed into Sutil 

Spa - Crashed out into wall after dice with Hamilton

Singapore - Crashed out into wall

 

Not picking a bun fight, but 2008 was a frustrating year for Kimi all things considered


Edited by Elissa, 18 September 2013 - 07:28.


#222 JeePee

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:42

Not picking a bun fight, but 2008 was a frustrating year for Kimi all things considered

 

Definitely. But Monaco, Spa and Singapore where not wheel to wheel mistakes. He made those all on his own.



#223 Elissa

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:50

Definitely. But Monaco, Spa and Singapore where not wheel to wheel mistakes. He made those all on his own.

I suppose it's how you define wheel to wheel, IMO he was racing close with people and fighting for position, he wasn't out lapping on his own. 

 

It's not a slight on his ability, it was just a bad year all round imo. 


Edited by Elissa, 18 September 2013 - 07:51.


#224 Cyanide

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:50

Wheel 2 Wheel:

 

Australia - Outbraked himself racing Heikki and went off into gravel, similar mistake attempting a pass on Timo Glock some laps later 

Monaco - Crashed into Sutil 

Spa - Crashed out into wall after dice with Hamilton

Singapore - Crashed out into wall

 

Not picking a bun fight, but 2008 was a frustrating year for Kimi all things considered

 

It was one season. One season doesn't determine a driver's capabilities, just as 2011 didn't determine Hamilton's overall driving. 

 

Some people who are not supporting him seem to break his career down to only 2008, because that's the only year he performed badly. So of course it's the overall highlight of his entire career. It's just people nitpicking the bad parts so they can show the world how bad of a driver he is. 

 

I'm sure you see the stupidity of that thinking, so no need to discuss this further. 



#225 Elissa

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:57

It was one season. One season doesn't determine a driver's capabilities, just as 2011 didn't determine Hamilton's overall driving. 

 

Some people who are not supporting him seem to break his career down to only 2008, because that's the only year he performed badly. So of course it's the overall highlight of his entire career. It's just people nitpicking the bad parts so they can show the world how bad of a driver he is. 

 

I'm sure you see the stupidity of that thinking, so no need to discuss this further. 

 

I'm not denigrating Kimi as a driver at all!! I was responding to one poster who asked someone to list Kimi's wheel to wheel mistakes in 2008. I'm not nitpicking at all, every driver is prone to making mistakes at some point in their career. If I';m reading you message correct i don't think you've understood the 'tone' of my posts. I'm neutral to Kimi, he's just the same to me as any of the other 'top' drivers. 


Edited by Elissa, 18 September 2013 - 07:57.


#226 Cyanide

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:59

I'm not denigrating Kimi as a driver at all!! I was responding to one poster who asked someone to list Kimi's wheel to wheel mistakes in 2008. I'm not nitpicking at all, every driver is prone to making mistakes at some point in their career. If I';m reading you message correct i don't think you've understood the 'tone' of my posts. I'm neutral to Kimi, he's just the same to me as any of the other 'top' drivers. 

 

The post was not hate-directed towards you in any way. It's a general message. 


Edited by Cyanide, 18 September 2013 - 07:59.


#227 Elissa

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:01

The post was not hate-directed towards you in any way. It's a general message. 

 

Ok, well it reads like it when you quote me.....



#228 ardbeg

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:54

I suppose it's how you define wheel to wheel, IMO he was racing close with people and fighting for position, he wasn't out lapping on his own. 

 

It's not a slight on his ability, it was just a bad year all round imo. 

Then, what is wheel to wheel racing for you? IMO none of your incidents was wheel to wheel. In fact, at Spa he had just "won" a wheel to wheel against Hamilton.


Edited by ardbeg, 18 September 2013 - 08:57.


#229 Elissa

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 09:12

Then, what is wheel to wheel racing for you? IMO none of your incidents was wheel to wheel. In fact, at Spa he had just "won" a wheel to wheel against Hamilton.

 

It's written in the very post you quoted....Racing close with each other, whether that's literally side by side, or following extremely close, ie so close to a competitor you have to modify your racing lines/car control compared to a normally following a car at distance or lapping in clear air.

 

Australia 2008 as an example (Note how following close to Glock was a factor in Kimi spinning).

 

 

As for Spa 2008, he even tapped Lewis when Lewis passed him into La Source, before crashing out dicing with Hamilton later on, he may have overtaken Hamilton at that point but was still under pressure from Lewis in a fight for postion. 

 

I'm not going to go round in a never ending circle jerk about this, you won't change my opinion and it's entirely subjective what people define as 'wheel to wheel'.

 

Every driver makes mistakes


Edited by Elissa, 18 September 2013 - 09:15.


#230 ForeverF1

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 09:36

Every driver makes mistakes

This. Although some will not accept it.



#231 TT6

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 10:43

It seems both the best and the worst candidates are quite evident in this poll. Picking one of each cathegory (KR, FA, LH - GRO, MAL, PER) is a matter preference I guess.

Vettel low scoring must be because of the superiority of his car. How would you take part in wheel to wheel activity when you tend to vanish into distance.

Edited by TT6, 18 September 2013 - 10:47.


#232 PARAZAR

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 10:44

Best: Kimi, Button

Worst: Perez, Grosjean even though I think he's getting better, Rosberg had his moments and I'd also like to throw Gutierrez in the mix.



#233 ardbeg

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 10:45

It's written in the very post you quoted....Racing close with each other, whether that's literally side by side, or following extremely close, ie so close to a competitor you have to modify your racing lines/car control compared to a normally following a car at distance or lapping in clear air.

 

Australia 2008 as an example (Note how following close to Glock was a factor in Kimi spinning).

 

 

As for Spa 2008, he even tapped Lewis when Lewis passed him into La Source, before crashing out dicing with Hamilton later on, he may have overtaken Hamilton at that point but was still under pressure from Lewis in a fight for postion. 

 

I'm not going to go round in a never ending circle jerk about this, you won't change my opinion and it's entirely subjective what people define as 'wheel to wheel'.

 

Every driver makes mistakes

Surely wheel-to-wheel must include at least moments of wheel-to-wheel? Nose-to-gearbox, for instance, does not. Neither do putting-your-rear-wheels-on-the-grass-while-following-close-behind. The clue is in the words. Your definition of "wheel-to-wheel" seem to include everything they do on the track and that is summarized with much fewer letters: 'Racing'

 



#234 Raven8

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 10:46

Not sure about Kimi, he makes mistakes like al others, and I don't know if he is really good or just too passive in wheel to wheel battles



#235 Zava

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 10:54

It seems both the best and the worst candidates are quite evident in this poll. Picking one of each cathegory (KR, FA, LH - GRO, MAL, PER) is a matter preference I guess.

Vettel low scoring must be because of the superiority of his car. How would you take part in wheel to wheel activity when you tend to vanish into distance.

I don't think it is down to the superiority of his car. simply people don't think he is THE best at wheel to wheel, only one of the better ones.

 

remember, scores in a "who is THE BEST" poll don't mirror the actual skills of drivers, only who is considered best. if everyone in the world considered Kimi to be the measuring stick, the 100%, and let's say Hamilton the 99%, while everyone else is, say, under 80%, what would you get? 100% votes on Kimi, 0% on everyone else, despite Hamilton being much superior to everyone else.


Edited by Zava, 18 September 2013 - 10:55.


#236 fed up

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:30

Voted Lewis and Maldonando - Perez was close.

 

Yet Kimi is leading :confused:



#237 undersquare

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:31

Vettel is obviously (to me) among the best, it's ridiculous where he's being scored.  

 

Likewise Button's rating is upside-down; he has so often been the victim and has even had a bit of video posted in this very thread showing him losing out to Kubica - as an example of him being good!   Kimi too has been pushed out of the way as often as doing the pushing (though he has some great aggressive moves too).  The typical scenario is Valencia 09 when Sebi darted at Jense round T1, Jense lifted and ducked into the pit exit and that ruined his race.  Score to Sebi.  Not to Jense.

 

Then next year (iirc) Sebi made a similar move on Lewis, Lewis didn't budge and HE came out ahead.  Another time (can't remember which year, 09 probably) it was Kimi that Sebi squeezed there and Kimi gave way, score to Vettel again.  

 

It's not about avoiding damage it's about coming out ahead and undamaged.

 

Drivers develop a reputation.  Some of them give way, some don't.  To be 'good wheel-to-wheel' you need to have the hard-case rep and yet not have contacts. It needs fantastic judgement and instinctive dominance.  The drivers all talk about learning who is who.  

 

These days the top guys are, afaic, Lewis, Sebi and Nando.  Hulk coming.  If the other guy really has an edge with the position of his car they give way, no contact.  If it's really 50/50, they come out ahead.  People don't move on them (apart from Grosjean lol) because they know they'll still be there.  It was the same with Senna.  People moaned about 'bullying' but that's what it is.  Wheel-to-wheel dominance.



#238 Elissa

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:54

Surely wheel-to-wheel must include at least moments of wheel-to-wheel? Nose-to-gearbox, for instance, does not. Neither do putting-your-rear-wheels-on-the-grass-while-following-close-behind. The clue is in the words. Your definition of "wheel-to-wheel" seem to include everything they do on the track and that is summarized with much fewer letters: 'Racing'

 

 

Translation - I don't like that you've mentioned Kimi as I voted him the best, therefore I will try and find any angle to pick your opinion apart.

 

BIB - Pull the other one, you're deliberately being obtuse. In addition to racing 'literally' side by side, I also count nose to gearbox as 'wheel to wheel' racing, because it takes great skill and trust for two drivers to follow each other closely at speed and not trip over one another. That's my opinion and people are completely within their rights to disagree, it's another thing though to blatantly make things up. You're wilfully twisting my words, and inventing things to suit your own agenda. By all means carry on with trying to pick me apart, you're not going to get anywhere with it.

 

Here's another Kimi move for you to consider as you seem to be struggling with my opinion

 

 

 


Edited by Elissa, 18 September 2013 - 12:09.


#239 Rinehart

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 12:12

Hell no, Kimi in 2008 was just as embarrassing as Lewis in 2011.

 

Raikkonen is leading this poll because of his popularity, even though he is neither as efficient as Alonso, nor as brave as Hamilton, nor as clean as Button.

 

Maybe he's leading because he's not as efficient as Alonso (easier in a car that qualifies low but has strong race pace), not as brave as Hamilton (entertaining, but ultimately lots of contact costing lots of points) and not as clean as Button (not aggressive enough, not overtaking enough). Maybe Kimi has the right balance of efficiency, bravery and cleanness and its the sum of the parts that makes him the best overtaker - and nothing to do with his popularity.



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#240 eronrules

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 12:31

Translation - I don't like that you've mentioned Kimi as I voted him the best, therefore I will try and find any angle to pick your opinion apart.

 

BIB - Pull the other one, you're deliberately being obtuse. In addition to racing 'literally' side by side, I also count nose to gearbox as 'wheel to wheel' racing, because it takes great skill and trust for two drivers to follow each other closely at speed and not trip over one another. That's my opinion and people are completely within their rights to disagree, it's another thing though to blatantly make things up. You're wilfully twisting my words, and inventing things to suit your own agenda. By all means carry on with trying to pick me apart, you're not going to get anywhere with it.

 

Here's another Kimi move for you to consider as you seem to be struggling with my opinion

 

 

 

you really need to find better example (i thought you'd go for sutil vs kimi at monaco). sutil drove into kimi as he was exiting the pit lane, forcing kimi out of the track and damaging his front wing. in all fairness, kimi did leave him the space on the inside, but sutil didn't leave space for kimi on the outside of T1, that's what really people have been saying regarding 'spatial awareness' and knowing when to back off. kimi has that ability to judge distances and has a reflexes to avoid such situations. not many driver possess that ability.

 

if the second driver was Lewis (e.g) things might have been different. that's why kimi is leading the poll. case in point .... 

 

kimi vs lewis (suzuka 2012) -  analysis by ant and georgie

 


Edited by eronrules, 18 September 2013 - 12:44.


#241 Elissa

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 12:38

you really need to find better example (i thought you'd go for sutil vs kimi at monaco). sutil drove into kimi as he was exiting the pit lane, forcing kimi out of the track and damaging his front wing. in all fairness, kimi did leave him the space on the inside, but sutil didn't leave space for kimi on the outside of T1, that's what really people have been saying regarding 'spatial awareness' and knowing when to back off. kimi has that ability to judge distances and has a reflexes to avoid such situations. not many driver possess that ability. if the second driver was Lewis (e.g) things might have been different. that's why kimi is leading the poll. case in point .... 

 

kimi vs lewis (suzuka 2012) -  analysis by ant and georgie

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=sDnnfizWCm4

 

I was deliberately choosing a 'side by side' moment, the incident was deemed a 'racing incident' by the stewards, as they both played their part in the collision. Sutil could've backed out of it, Kimi could also have. But yes the Suzuka one was a good example, I was unaware of that one, thanks for adding it into the discussion. 



#242 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 12:40

Hell no, Kimi in 2008 was just as embarrassing as Lewis in 2011.

 

 

Performance wise, yes.

 

However we´re talking about wheel to wheel. List:

 

Oz: outbraking himself against Kovalainen into T3.

Spa: Clipping Hamilton from behind exiting La Source.

 

Done. Oh yes, SO embarrasing!!



#243 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 12:43

I was deliberately choosing a 'side by side' moment, the incident was deemed a 'racing incident' by the stewards, as they both played their part in the collision. Sutil could've backed out of it, Kimi could also have. 

 

You don´t have a clue.

 

When cars are side by side into a corner:

 

1) the guy outside has to give a car´s width of room on the apex. Räikkönen did.

2) the guy inside has to give room on the outside exiting the corner if the other guy keeps it fully alongside or ahead. Sutil didn´t. That´s why they touched.



#244 ardbeg

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 12:49

Translation - I don't like that you've mentioned Kimi as I voted him the best, therefore I will try and find any angle to pick your opinion apart.

Here's another Kimi move for you to consider as you seem to be struggling with my opinion

 

 

 

I don't struggle with distinctively your opinion, I struggle with the very lose interpretation of "wheel-to-wheel". The expression itself is actually defining what it is all about and therefore I must object when people drag in incidents that has no wheel-to-wheel elements in them. Your example with Sutil is also a good example of how to NOT do it, but here the blame falls on Sutil because he was the one that should have left room but he didn't and no wheel-to-wheel racing occured. Look at Sutils hands, he is actually steering into Kimi. In my opinion a good wheel-to-wheel racer takes up space, but he also leaves room for the other to stay on track.
 



#245 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 12:53

 

Raikkonen is leading this poll because of his popularity.

 

Think so? Easy to check: open a "best qualifier on the grid poll". Let´s see if Räikkönen leads it "because of his popularity".



#246 Elissa

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 13:00

You don´t have a clue.

 

When cars are side by side into a corner:

 

1) the guy outside has to give a car´s width of room on the apex. Räikkönen did.

2) the guy inside has to give room on the outside exiting the corner if the other guy keeps it fully alongside or ahead. Sutil didn´t. That´s why they touched.

 

Really?...."I haven't got a clue'......,nice.

 

Sutil couldn't make his car perform a 90 degree turn on the spot, unless of course, you expected him to stop dead on the track at the end of the pit lane, and wave Kimi on by. They both had a choice whether to commit to that corner. Neither driver was deemed at fault hence the stewards termed it a racing incident. 

 

Suit yourself though.


Edited by Elissa, 18 September 2013 - 13:01.


#247 ardbeg

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 13:00

 

It's not about avoiding damage it's about coming out ahead and undamaged.

I don't agree. It dpends if you are attacked or are attacking and if in the end of the race you reached your goal. If you "lose" a wheel-to-wheel battle against someone who caught up with you, you lost a position to a faster driver. That is something a decent driver must accept. The "reputation building", the "no one shall pass" has IMO destroyed a lot of the racing lately since many young drivers comes in with that attitude nowadays and... well, look at Grosjean, Perez, Sutil... there is many racing incidents that could have been avoided and replaced with racing instead.



#248 ardbeg

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 13:04

Really?...."I haven't got a clue'......,nice.

 

Sutil couldn't make his car perform a 90 degree turn on the spot, unless of course, you expected him to stop dead on the track at the end of the pit lane, and wave Kimi on by. They both had a choice to commit to that corner. Neither driver was deemed at fault hence the stewards termed it a racing incident. 

 

Suit yourself though.

Still you put it in the Kimi's mistake area. Did you look at the video? Did you not see Sutil actually moving his steering wheel towards Kimi just prior to the incident and then he moves the wheel back to it's original position right after? I'd bet that had he kept his path, it would have been a clean pass.


Edited by ardbeg, 18 September 2013 - 13:07.


#249 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 13:09

Really?...."I haven't got a clue'......,nice.

 

Sutil couldn't make his car perform a 90 degree turn on the spot, unless of course, you expected him to stop dead on the track at the end of the pit lane, and wave Kimi on by. They both had a choice to commit to that corner. Neither driver was deemed at fault hence the stewards termed it a racing incident. 

 

Suit yourself though.

 

 

Räikkönen picked a line and speed that allowed him to leave room for Sutil on the inside.

 

Sutil picked a line and speed that didn´t allow him to leave room for Räikkönen on the outside. And they had contact.

 

We´ve seen cars side by side there hundreds of times, no need for anyone to stop on the track, just both drivers need to adjust their line and speed to respect the rival. Sutil failed to do so.

 

It´s exactly like this.

 

http://youtu.be/J0xddPWtdI0?t=6m4s

 

And you need to be clueless to blame Fisichella here.


Edited by Skinnyguy, 18 September 2013 - 13:14.


#250 undersquare

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 13:43

Maybe he's leading because he's not as efficient as Alonso (easier in a car that qualifies low but has strong race pace), not as brave as Hamilton (entertaining, but ultimately lots of contact costing lots of points) and not as clean as Button (not aggressive enough, not overtaking enough). Maybe Kimi has the right balance of efficiency, bravery and cleanness and its the sum of the parts that makes him the best overtaker - and nothing to do with his popularity.

Maybe Kimi has had MORE contact recently than the others.  Then what?